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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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10 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I'm a little surprised by that since I was in Rothenburg Germany (the middle of the country) in mid-July many, many moons ago and they were socked in like it was mid-January anywhere else. We asked the woman at our bed and breakfast if the sun ever came out there. She just stared at us, grim and unsmiling, and said, "No."

Welcome to German humour (dry) and German weather-bias (it's never sunny, not even if it did not rain since nine month :dunno: )!

But yes, even here it is possible to grow fig and pomegranate, and also to some degree lemon (although the last does need a really good and sheltered place, a warm house or has to be dig up in winter).

15 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Even though they have these extended "super-seasons", I always assumed that the planet has milder "regular" seasons on an cyclic basis. Otherwise no flowering plants could grow unless they were all like some form of century plant that could wait out unpredictably long droughts/tundra conditions and take advantage of overly long wet seasons. Grasses would be almost an impossibility. And fruits and nuts? Forget it. They need bees (or other pollinators) and bees need nectar for honey and nectar requires flowers that bloom every year. (I wasn't going to get all science-y again, look what you made me do!)

So, I'd at least expect that there was a rainy season (those pines don't grow on sea water) since the Sweetwater has to get replenished from somewhere. Just because Dany didn't recollect on it doesn't mean it didn't rain. She may just choose to remember the sunny, happy days there.

Well, they have to (or Martin did not think too much of it), because of all the things you mentioned. I also would go with at least something like "mini seasons", aka rainy seasons and some months with lower temperature, etc.

And yes: Dany does of course choose to remember the sunny, happy days. Because she was little and this were the only truly happy days in her childhood.

(And science is good! :) Not only but also because I think GRRM did think about things like this, if maybe not to an end, but at least in broader sense.)

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

What if the lemon tree was exported from Dorne to Braavos' Sealord Palace by Oberyn Martell, in recognition of the secret marriage pact?

Even better would be if he brought lemon tree seeds to Braavos. Then they would literally be planting seeds to their plan. :P

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39 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Age obviously factors in. But she remembers other things from that time. She remembers Willem Darry well enough. She tells us he half-blind, that the servants were scared of him, that he called her little princess, that he was so sick that he never left his bed and she tells us how he smelled because of his sickness.

And when she sees him in the HotU, he has a cane, so that's also something that's part of her memories. So Dany must have been old enough to remember all these things. These things in her life made an impression on her. She was happy in the house with the red door and Willem Darry was part of that, so she remembers him well enough as well. And when he died, she lost that.

These memories are described as dim and fading.  Obviously there will be a time, usually before age 3 where you typically have no memories at all.  And another time, typically after age 3, where you have a few memories, but they are fragmentary and confused.  It's not all or nothing.  The fact that she remembers some things, does not prove that she remembers everything, or that she remembers "well".

The memory of Willem Darry (or is he really Willam Dustin?) with a cane was originally not part of her memories.  It is something from an earlier period, dredged up from her subconscious by her vision.  In her conscious memories, she only remembers him in his sickbed.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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The plot thickens.

I dunna know or remember nuttin about a cane and I dunna want to look up the HotU drug induced visions.

Dany remembers and says:

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII      "It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us.     Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness."      She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself.      "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says.     In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen."       The old knight read the pact slowly.     "If Robert had known of this, he would have smashed Sunspear as he once smashed Pyke, and claimed the heads of Prince Doran and the Red Viper … and like as not, the head of this Dornish princess too."/

All the above is, is validation of what Doran told his daughter in FfC.

A Feast for Crows - The Princess In The Tower     Promised? Arianne stared at him incredulously. "What are you saying? Is this another lie? You never said . . ."    "The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough . . . when you came of age, I thought, but . . ."/

Okay, there was a Dornish plot afoot. Dany read a parchment (document) signed by Darry while the Targ dragonlets were children living in Braavos.

Again with the Braavos memory.

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37 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Even better would be if he brought lemon tree seeds to Braavos. Then they would literally be planting seeds to their plan. :P

:) Oberyn did seem to like sharing seed and planting it too.

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50 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever. 

 

This is quite telling. It would seem that the house was not the Sealord's house and that no one in Braavos lifted a finger to do anything for them. This would imply that the Sealord was just as recorded, a "highborn" witness to a "highborn" pact and nothing else.

In a way this reminds me of those crazy stories you hear of children growing up always on the run with their families because their parents insist that the mob or something else sinister is coming after them. Then when they grow up they discover that it was all crap and find out that dad wad nuts or had another family that he was hiding or something.

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8 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I dunna know or remember nuttin about a cane and I dunna want to look up the HotU drug induced visions.

She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged froward, and then she thought, He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran. (Dany IV, Clash 48)

The HotU may have started with the shade-of-the-evening, but what she is seeing must correspond with her memories of the house with the red door and Willem Darry. She says she remembered the wooden beams and the carved animal faces. That's actually a lot more about the house where she lived that's not the the lemon tree or the red door. 

And descriptions of Willem Darry shouldn't just be thrown out. He is tied to the house. So if she remembers him well enough to recognize his voice and to remember the state he was in before he died and that he had a cane, then I don't think there's anything faulty with her memories.

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22 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.

Thanks for providing the information.  Cane/stick infers sameness.

Again, Dany makes reference to Braavos. The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.

That's all I'm trying to make reference to. Dany is either correct or incorrect about her memories. Depends on posters thought processes and beliefs.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I    That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII      "It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl.

Either there was a lemon tree outside the window or there weren't.

Frankly, I am of the opinion that the red door and the lemon tree outside her window were located somewhere in Braavos.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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9 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Thanks for providing the information.  Cane/stick infers sameness.

Again, Dany makes reference to Braavos.

That's all I'm trying to make reference to. Dany is either correct or incorrect about her memories. Depends on posters thought processes and beliefs.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I    That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII      "It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl.

Either there was a lemon tree outside the window or there weren't.

Frankly, I am of the opinion that the red door and the lemon tree outside her window were located somewhere in Braavos.

 

But it doesn't have to be an either or situation.  That's the strange thing about memories, especially memories from very early childhood.  Some of the memories may be accurate, some of the memories may not be, and some of the memories may be conflated with other memories.

I'm sure that Dany does have memories of a childhood in Braavos.  It is very probable that Darry lived with her in Braavos, and was very sick.  But it's probably not accurate that she had a lemon tree outside of the window of her House in Braavos.

Now it's possible that Dany never had a lemon tree outside of her front window, and her memory is a false one.

But it's also possible that Dany lived somewhere before her life in Braavos where she did have a lemon tree outside of her window.  So Dany has a definite memory of a lemon tree outside of her window.  But since she's been told that she was taken as a babe straight from Dragonstone to Braavos, she assumes that the lemon tree had to have been located outside the window of her childhood house in Braavos, because she believes that's the only place she ever lived in as a very young child.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Dany remembers and says:

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII      "It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us.     Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness."      

Dany is not remembering anything here.  She is merely describing the document, which indicates where, when, and before what witnesses it was made.  The document is dated, and Dany can do basic math, which is why she describes it as having been made "when I was just a little girl".

Edited by Platypus Rex

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3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But it doesn't have to be an either or situation.  That's the strange thing about memories, especially memories from very early childhood.  Some of the memories may be accurate, some of the memories may not be, and some of the memories may be conflated with other memories.

Unreliable memories. Okay. What if Danys memories are correct?

We are talking about a red door and a lemon tree are we not?

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I    That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But it's also possible that Dany lived somewhere before her life in Braavos where she did have a lemon tree outside of her window. 

As I have typed previously, there is a Dorne connection.

21 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Frankly, I am of the opinion that the red door and the lemon tree outside her window were located somewhere in Braavos.

The ^ is my opinion. I have merely been providing text material. Actually truth be known --- it (my opinion or the location) doesn't have a relevance to the story line other than posters questioning Dany's memory or martin's errors.

:cheers:

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2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I    That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.

Nobody questions that there was textual evidence that they lived in Braavos.  The question is whether the discrepancy with other textual evidence means anything.  GRRM seemed to strongly hint that the discrepancy DOES mean something.  So, what does it mean?

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3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Dany is not remembering anything here.  She is merely describing the document, which indicates where, when, and before what witnesses it was made.  The document is dated, which is why she describes it as having been made "when I was just a little girl".

Yes, darling.

If her memory is not in tack Dany would not have been so nonchalant about the material.

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Just now, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM seemed to strongly hint that the discrepancy DOES mean something.  So, what does it mean?

I dunna know. Splain it to me. Thanks.

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3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Unreliable memories. Okay. What if Danys memories are correct?

We are talking about a red door and a lemon tree are we not?

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I    That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window

I suppose it's possible, but once again GRRM has repeatedly hit us over the head that there are no lemon trees in Braavos.  So maybe she was living in the Sealord's house, perhaps she was an exhibit in his menagerie.  Possible I suppose.  Even though in that case, I'd think she'd remember the velociraptor, more than the lemon tree.

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2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Yes, darling.

If her memory is not in tack Dany would not have been so nonchalant about the material.

Actually by her own account, her memories of Braavos or not completely in tact:

Quote

Not since those half-remembered days in Braavos when she lived in the house with the red door had she been as happy.

 

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7 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Yes, darling.

If her memory is not in tack Dany would not have been so nonchalant about the material.

"Dany unrolled the parchment and examined it again. Braavos. This was done in Braavos, while we were living in the house with the red door. Why did that make her feel so strange?"

She does not sound so nonchalant to me.  It sounds like she senses something might be off.  Why DOES it make her feel so strange?

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Okay honeybums, I got no dog in the race.  I am not invested is where the red door or the lemon tree is.

4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Why DOES it make her feel so strange?

You are under the impression Dany feels strange.

I been saying the red door and the lemon tree are in Braavos.

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose it's possible, but once again GRRM has repeatedly hit us over the head that there are no lemon trees in Braavos. 

I got a wild hair when martin did the Eddard baby momma drama thawg and I got no idea what supports your ^ claim.

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2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"You are under the impression Dany feels strange."

That's what the text says, sure.

"I been saying the red door and the lemon tree are in Braavos."

Maybe you should say it again.  Maybe somebody missed it.

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3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

That's what the text says, sure.

"I been saying the red door and the lemon tree are in Braavos."

Maybe you should say it again.  Maybe somebody missed it.

For two pages I have been interjecting my opinion that D & V lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door and Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.

If people wanna disagree and state Dany has a faulty memory tis okay with me.

We are after all talking about a book not a major humanitarian dilemma. 

 

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