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The Hooded Man is Torren Liddle.

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6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Aemon sent a lot of ravens. @redriver makes a good point. If the north were so worried about the wildlings, why didn't they respond to Aemon's pleas about wildlings at the gate? Again. it's suggestive to me of co-operation between Mance and the some northern houses and clans.


Thanks for the reminder. It puts a bit of perspective on things.  As Jon says, "Well, ravens might have wings, but lords and kings do not. If help was coming it would not come today."

At about the same time that the NW is preparing to battle wildlings Robb and his northern host are battling down south. There is war in the realm.  The Red Wedding happens. There are Iron Born invading parts of the north land. It is believed that the Iron Born torched WF.

I understand that does not address why the clans did not respond to Aemon's plea for help.  Unless, pure speculation on my part, the clan chiefs felt the need to stay home to secure their mountain fastnesses.

I'm unsure and I didn't check but I think Jon and the wall climbing wildlings crossed at or near Greyguard and worked their way to Queenscrown.   I would think that sumbody would have heard or seen sumthing. It is believed that the Wall and NW are there to keep the wildlings/free folk at bay.

I understand, at least I think I do, that Mance and his women may have been given or gathered intel while looking for the girl on the horse.

I am also open to the idea that the night Theon came in contact with the hooded man the man may have been returning from a clandestine meeting of northmen inside the walls of WF.

There are to many working parts for me to wrap my head around. By admitting my shortcomings I leave space for other posters to add their thoughts and ideas.

After the main players arrived at Barrowton Roose decided to move the wedding to WF. Roose did that to get at Stannis. Rosse has summed the lords to attend the wedding and swear fealty.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III      "Even ruined and broken, Winterfell remains Lady Arya's home. What better place to wed her, bed her, and stake your claim? That is only half of it, however. We would be fools to march on Stannis. Let Stannis march on us. He is too cautious to come to Barrowton … but he must come to Winterfell. His clansmen will not abandon the daughter of their precious Ned to such as you. Stannis must march or lose them … and being the careful commander that he is, he will summon all his friends and allies when he marches. He will summon Arnolf Karstark."    Ramsay licked his chapped lips. "And we'll have him."  "If the gods will it." Roose rose to his feet. "You'll wed at Winterfell. I shall inform the lords that we march in three days and invite them to accompany us." /

When Mance left the Wall, Jon is under the impression the wedding is to take place at Barrowton.  Mance may have been on his way to Barrowton when he discovered there was life at WF. I don't know.  All I know is that according to Theon Mance and women showed up at the gate.

Mance, as Abel, may be working with the Umber inside WF.   Mance may be working with Mors.   Maybe as you stated Mors' request for Mance's skull is a ruse.    Maybe Mors told Mance the northerners are upset with Roose and have a plan to off Roose.    Maybe Mance, Mel and Stannis had a meeting before Stannis left the Wall. To many maybes for me.

The only thing I am confident about is that there is a plan to make Bolton and Frey pay for the Red Wedding. Tywin is dead and the Lannister's are busy elsewhere. It is my opinion Roose and Ramsey's days are numbered.

It is simple for me to dissect a single instance. What is difficult for me is weaving the many moving parts into a reasonable outcome.

Sometimes I think martin has written a bunch of short stories and is weaving them together into a saga. :cheers:

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

@Clegane'sPup

ASoS Jon VII

Maester Aemon had sent a lot of birds . . . not to one king, but to four. Wildlings at the gate, the message ran. The realm in danger. Send all the help you can to Castle Black. Even as far as Oldtown and the Citadel the ravens flew, and to half a hundred mighty lords in their castles. The northern lords offered their best hope, so to them Aemon had sent two birds. To the Umbers and the Boltons, to Castle Cerwyn and Torrhen's Square, Karhold and Deepwood Motte, to Bear Island, Oldcastle, Widow's Watch, White Harbor, Barrowton, and the Rills, to the mountain fastnesses of the Liddles, the Burleys, the Norreys, the Harclays, and the Wulls, the black birds brought their plea. Wildlings at the gate. The north in danger. Come with all your strength.

Aemon sent a lot of ravens. @redriver makes a good point. If the north were so worried about the wildlings, why didn't they respond to Aemon's pleas about wildlings at the gate? Again. it's suggestive to me of co-operation between Mance and the some northern houses and clans.

We know Mance has been south on a few occasions and it only makes sense that his plan would go beyond getting past the Wall, given the lessons of history. Tormund and Val are part of Mance's inner circle. There's a possibility of a relationship between Tormund and Alysanne Mormont. Val says "my lord", so even if she is not Crowfood's daughter, there is definitely a hint that she is more than just a woman of the free folk as that is not something that is typically said by the free folk. And there is a strong hint that at least one washerwoman, Rowan, is a northerner. Maybe more than that, as the Op suggests.

My gut instinct on this is that the plan to unite the free folk and move the host south before the long night falls may originate with Val and not Mance. This is based on nothing more than her weirwood face brooch though and I can't even articulate why that is.

I prefer the simpler explanation - nobody came because:

a) the North is not near as “friendly” to the Watch as most people try to suggest (in term shape of support, I don’t mean they are hostile exactly)

b) Many able bodied men are already South with Robb, or dead from the same

c) there are dangers aplenty on their doorstep with Ironborn, Bastard’s/Bolton men, civil strife. The Liddle says himself to Bran and the Reeds how dangerous things are now that ‘the wolves are gone.’ 

Based on that, I think we have a reasonable explanation for why the clans didn’t send aid to the watch.

 

im naturally sceptical of these kind of grand conspiracy theories though so I was always going to need convincing :p As far as they go however, this is certainly one of the better ones :cheers:

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On 3/1/2019 at 1:12 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

We don't know what this ploy is and I'm as curious as you are. It could be that Mance was looking to go to Winterfell anyway, leaving the mission to rescue Arya in the hands of the spearwives. Or his plans genuinely changed when he found out the wedding party was moving up to Winterfell. 

Regardless of what it is, it's the line that Melisandre utters in that chapter that has me wondering if the ploy that Mance has in mind doesn't have to do with a conversation between he and Melisandre that we are not yet privy to.

"The girl," she said. "A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow's sister." Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. "I have seen her in my flames, but only once. We must win the lord commander's trust, and the only way to do that is to save her." (Mel I, ADwD 31)

What do Mel and Mance want with Jon that they need to gain his trust? 

What is so confusing to me is that I've always viewed the "ploy" as Mance wanting to live out his Bael the Bard fantasy- disguising himself as a singer with spearwives as washerwomen to infiltrate a castle and steal the Lord of Winterfell's daughter (i.e. "Arya").  But that would mean he never thought the girl he was supposed to rescue at Long Lake actually was Arya.  That doesn't really make sense though since we see Mel genuinely believes the girl at Long Lake is Arya, especially as she's trying to win Jon's trust so desperately she wouldn't lie about it.  So yeah, I'm just as confused as anybody.  It's possible his "ploy" doesn't have anything to do with rescuing "Arya" and maybe just relates to the crypts of Winterfell which he shows a healthy interest in through the spearwives interrogating Theon about it.  But that again raises the question of why spearwives would be needed to "infiltrate" Winterfell when at the time he left Castle Black Winterfell was an abandoned mess of ruins full of squatters.

 

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

@Clegane'sPup

ASoS Jon VII

Maester Aemon had sent a lot of birds . . . not to one king, but to four. Wildlings at the gate, the message ran. The realm in danger. Send all the help you can to Castle Black. Even as far as Oldtown and the Citadel the ravens flew, and to half a hundred mighty lords in their castles. The northern lords offered their best hope, so to them Aemon had sent two birds. To the Umbers and the Boltons, to Castle Cerwyn and Torrhen's Square, Karhold and Deepwood Motte, to Bear Island, Oldcastle, Widow's Watch, White Harbor, Barrowton, and the Rills, to the mountain fastnesses of the Liddles, the Burleys, the Norreys, the Harclays, and the Wulls, the black birds brought their plea. Wildlings at the gate. The north in danger. Come with all your strength.

Aemon sent a lot of ravens. @redriver makes a good point. If the north were so worried about the wildlings, why didn't they respond to Aemon's pleas about wildlings at the gate? Again. it's suggestive to me of co-operation between Mance and the some northern houses and clans.

Yes, the clan lords behavior in particular is very suspicious.  They seem to show no interest in a wildling apocalypse scenario but show up to bring wet nurses to help with the babies at the Wall and witness a wedding between Alys and Sigorn?  I'm not buying that at all.

Quote

 

We know Mance has been south on a few occasions and it only makes sense that his plan would go beyond getting past the Wall, given the lessons of history. Tormund and Val are part of Mance's inner circle. There's a possibility of a relationship between Tormund and Alysanne Mormont. Val says "my lord", so even if she is not Crowfood's daughter, there is definitely a hint that she is more than just a woman of the free folk as that is not something that is typically said by the free folk. And there is a strong hint that at least one washerwoman, Rowan, is a northerner. Maybe more than that, as the Op suggests.

My gut instinct on this is that the plan to unite the free folk and move the host south before the long night falls may originate with Val and not Mance. This is based on nothing more than her weirwood face brooch though and I can't even articulate why that is.

 

Val is such a suspicious character- she is definitely hinted at as being much much more than she appears to be.  I know there was a thread a while back about Val being some kind of priestess or religious leader of the wildlings.  Can't seem to recall what the title of it was.  Lets not forget that Val was somehow able to locate Tormund on her own in the dead of winter on a half-blind horse without even being bothered by the Others who were picking off strays from Tormund's band whenever they got the chance.  She also said something to the effect the North holds no ghosts for me which is an interesting turn of phrase as it relates to the Others and wights.  Finally lets not forget the description Jon gives of her which seems intentionally designed to be reminiscent of the Night's Queen who controlled the Night's King.

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2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Yes, the clan lords behavior in particular is very suspicious.  They seem to show no interest in a wildling apocalypse scenario but show up to bring wet nurses to help with the babies at the Wall and witness a wedding between Alys and Sigorn?  I'm not buying that at all.

If you don't mind to much I am going to leave the bulk of your comment and pick out one word. Having said that I do find the mention of the chiefs supplying wet nurses and attending the wedding verra interesting. I had forgotten about that.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X     Old Flint and The Norrey had been given places of high honor just below the dais. Both men had been too old to march with Stannis; they had sent their sons and grandsons in their stead. But they had been quick enough to descend on Castle Black for the wedding. Each had brought a wet nurse to the Wall as well. The Norrey woman was forty, with the biggest breasts Jon Snow had ever seen. The Flint girl was fourteen and flat-chested as a boy, though she did not lack for milk. Between the two of them, the child Val called Monster seemed to be thriving.     For that much Jon was grateful … but he did not believe for a moment that two such hoary old warriors would have hied down from their hills for that alone. Each had brought a tail of fighting men—five for Old Flint, twelve for The Norrey, all clad in ragged skins and studded leathers, fearsome as the face of winter. Some had long beards, some had scars, some had both; all worshiped the old gods of the north, those same gods worshiped by the free folk beyond the Wall. Yet here they sat, drinking to a marriage hallowed by some queer red god from beyond the seas./

The one word is Alys.

Alys Karstark another grain in the shifting sands.     Alys arrived at the Wall in time to tell of Arnolf's intended betrayal of Stannis.    The banker arrives at the Wall seeking Stannis.      After chit and chat and deals Jon sends the banker on his way supplying guides and with a letter for Stannis.   The banker arrives outside WF during or before a snow storm and Mors sends the banker to Stannis with the recently  escaped Theon/Reek and Arya/Jeyne.    Stannis reads Jon's letter and .... spoiler WoW Theon chapter that was removed from DwD.

Brain storming, tossing round ideas and thoughts :unsure:

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sometimes I think martin has written a bunch of short stories and is weaving them together into a saga. :cheers:

More like a bunch of long stories.:cheers:

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I prefer the simpler explanation - nobody came because:

a) the North is not near as “friendly” to the Watch as most people try to suggest (in term shape of support, I don’t mean they are hostile exactly)

b) Many able bodied men are already South with Robb, or dead from the same

c) there are dangers aplenty on their doorstep with Ironborn, Bastard’s/Bolton men, civil strife. The Liddle says himself to Bran and the Reeds how dangerous things are now that ‘the wolves are gone.’ 

Based on that, I think we have a reasonable explanation for why the clans didn’t send aid to the watch.

 

im naturally sceptical of these kind of grand conspiracy theories though so I was always going to need convincing :p As far as they go however, this is certainly one of the better ones :cheers:

True. And one more reason is probably lack of leadership. Early in AGoT Ned mentions that he might have to call his banners and march against Mance. The vacant seat at Winterfell would obviously not help the situation.

But the northern clans sent men with Stannis, it's just surprising that they didn't send anyone to assist Castle Black, especially when some of the clans like the Liddle's have family members in the Watch. And Crowfood apparently hates wildlings. You have to admit it is a bit odd that he didn't react to pleas for help with wildlings at the gate.

:cheers:

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Yes, the clan lords behavior in particular is very suspicious.  They seem to show no interest in a wildling apocalypse scenario but show up to bring wet nurses to help with the babies at the Wall and witness a wedding between Alys and Sigorn?  I'm not buying that at all.

Yeah, more interested in checking out Jon than the wildlings.

3 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Val is such a suspicious character- she is definitely hinted at as being much much more than she appears to be.  I know there was a thread a while back about Val being some kind of priestess or religious leader of the wildlings.  Can't seem to recall what the title of it was.  Lets not forget that Val was somehow able to locate Tormund on her own in the dead of winter on a half-blind horse without even being bothered by the Others who were picking off strays from Tormund's band whenever they got the chance.  She also said something to the effect the North holds no ghosts for me which is an interesting turn of phrase as it relates to the Others and wights.  Finally lets not forget the description Jon gives of her which seems intentionally designed to be reminiscent of the Night's Queen who controlled the Night's King.

I remember that thread well. Val is definitely well respected among the free folk and is very capable. I wouldn't go as far as priestess or religious leader. Her carved weirwood face brooch suggests the old gods, which is a religion without a priests or religious leaders. I would think that seers and healers are probably the closest thing the free folk have to a priestly class, someone like Mother Mole. So could Val be a seer? Or maybe just a healer? And if she is a healer, is she the healer who nursed Mance after the shadowcat ripped him?

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An awful lot to get through.  A few passing thoughts.

Val:  I'm not aware of any theories that Val is Crowfood's daughter.  I think she is probably too young for that.  I would expect any girl taken to be at least an adolescent, if not actually in her teens.  Younger would be too much trouble, with a high child mortality rate.

I think that if any character is Crowfood's daughter, it is Rowan, one of the spearwives.   It is possible that Mance brought her along as a potential go-between with the Umbers, although I am doubtful as to how well that would work.

Mance and the spearwives:  I think the ones who left with Mance are the same ones who arrived with him at Winterfell.  There is really no point in going to the trouble of getting spearwives from Moles Town if you're simply going to switch them out later. Simply go alone.  I doubt Jon would have objected, and if so, one of two would be sufficient. 

Mance's ploy:  I will confess I have no idea what he has in mind.  I think it is obvious that it has nothing to do with Winterfell.  Given what he knows, he has no reason to think he will be going there.  Given Rowan's presence (if she's an Umber), it may have something to do with the Umbers.

Liddell's meeting with Bran:  I wouldn't be surprised if the meeting was deliberate on Liddell's part.  If so, it would have been to determine if they needed assistance, and find out where they were headed, or, indeed, if they had any plans at all.  I expect that the Liddell satisfied himself that they were OK, and had an objective in mind, and an idea of the dnagers ahead.  He could also probably tell that they would reject any offers of shelter or the like.

Identity of Hooded Man:  I think it is someone who Theon recognizes, and who he knew from before, and is surprised to see there.  Hal Mollen or one of the men with him would certainly fit the bill.  There may be others.  I also suspect that it is someone that readers will be able to identify.  I doubt that it is Liddell for those reasons.  I don't think Theon would know him, or readers would know who it was either.

That's all I can think of for now.

 

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On 2/26/2019 at 6:17 PM, Nezza86 said:

 Theon-Durden theory which is ridiculous

It is wonderful! Even if not to be the truth... 

:lol:

On 2/26/2019 at 2:41 PM, redriver said:

This old mother character, we later find out, is

Interesting to consider, all of it.

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10 hours ago, Vandal said:

It is wonderful! Even if not to be the truth... 

:lol:

Interesting to consider, all of it.

Yep,this is the theory that just keeps on giving...

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I do think the Liddle being the HM is a fun idea, but I don't know about Liddle being a spearwife. For one, there's really no reason for Mance to go to the trouble of getting spearwives only to switch them out on the road. If he had plans to meet with others on his way down south, he could have just met up with them. There's no switcheroo needed there. If he planned to have Liddle planted as a spearwife all along, then what's the point? Again, Liddle could have met up with him at any point down the road. There's no reason for complex subterfuge, here. 

And Mance may have had the ulterior motive of going to Winterfell eventually, but I think he did genuinely plan to find "Arya" and only ended up going to Winterfell when he never found the girl Mel described and information made its way out that Ramsay would marry her at Winterfell. To Mance's knowledge, Jon is essentially holding his son hostage. I think whether Mance thinks Jon would harm the kid is sort of irrelevant. It's entirely possible that if Mance doesn't get Jon on his side, he'll never be a father to his son. And the threat of that kind of separation is, I think, motivation enough to go do the thing that would get the bossman to like you. 

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On 3/4/2019 at 9:38 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X     Old Flint and The Norrey had been given places of high honor just below the dais. Both men had been too old to march with Stannis; they had sent their sons and grandsons in their stead. But they had been quick enough to descend on Castle Black for the wedding. Each had brought a wet nurse to the Wall as well. The Norrey woman was forty, with the biggest breasts Jon Snow had ever seen. The Flint girl was fourteen and flat-chested as a boy, though she did not lack for milk. Between the two of them, the child Val called Monster seemed to be thriving.     For that much Jon was grateful … but he did not believe for a moment that two such hoary old warriors would have hied down from their hills for that alone. Each had brought a tail of fighting men—five for Old Flint, twelve for The Norrey, all clad in ragged skins and studded leathers, fearsome as the face of winter. Some had long beards, some had scars, some had both; all worshiped the old gods of the north, those same gods worshiped by the free folk beyond the Wall. Yet here they sat, drinking to a marriage hallowed by some queer red god from beyond the seas./

Here are two of the most senior clansmen attending a wedding between a northern aristocratic lady and a wildling.The Magnar of Thenn.First and foremost we can account for their whereabouts,they are at the wall celebrating a wedding that they really should not be at.

We can accept that their seniority debars them from marching with Stannis,but why should they turn up at the Wall to attend a wedding of someone who is ostensibly supposed to be their mortal enemy?

And supply two wet nurses to Mance's son?

I'm suggesting there is more of an underlying connection between the two traditions that we are led to believe.The quote you  provided is suggesting the same thing.

Returning to my first point,the presence of Old Flint and The Norrey accounts for where they are in the narrative.

We have no indication that the man in the cave Bran and co met in the cave was in any way decrepid or suffering from the ravages of old age.Yet it's his son Morgan who is not only marching to Winterfell but has helped persuade Stannis to march there too.

We pretty much know where all the pertinent Mountain Clansmen are,either at the Wall or marching to WF.

Except for Torren Liddle.

 

Btw,I'm really enjoying this convo with you.Even if it doesn't always seem that way!!

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22 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

I do think the Liddle being the HM is a fun idea, but I don't know about Liddle being a spearwife. For one, there's really no reason for Mance to go to the trouble of getting spearwives only to switch them out on the road. If he had plans to meet with others on his way down south, he could have just met up with them. There's no switcheroo needed there. If he planned to have Liddle planted as a spearwife all along, then what's the point? Again, Liddle could have met up with him at any point down the road. There's no reason for complex subterfuge, here

We seem to be looking at Mance as some sort of uber-plotter who has worked all this stuff 20 years in advance.

What I'm suggesting in this theory is that when Mance received his mission,he was somewhat sceptical and decided to head south and consult with someone who is demonstrably aware of what is going on in the north.

Remember the Bran scene in Clash with someone who Bran identifies as Torren Liddle reveals exactly what was happening in the North?

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, redriver said:

Here are two of the most senior clansmen attending a wedding between a northern aristocratic lady and a wildling.The Magnar of Thenn.First and foremost we can account for their whereabouts,they are at the wall celebrating a wedding that they really should not be at.

We can accept that their seniority debars them from marching with Stannis,but why should they turn up at the Wall to attend a wedding of someone who is ostensibly supposed to be their mortal enemy?

And supply two wet nurses to Mance's son?

I'm suggesting there is more of an underlying connection between the two traditions that we are led to believe.The quote you  provided is suggesting the same thing.

Returning to my first point,the presence of Old Flint and The Norrey accounts for where they are in the narrative.

We have no indication that the man in the cave Bran and co met in the cave was in any way decrepid or suffering from the ravages of old age.Yet it's his son Morgan who is not only marching to Winterfell but has helped persuade Stannis to march there too.

We pretty much know where all the pertinent Mountain Clansmen are,either at the Wall or marching to WF.

Except for Torren Liddle.

 

Btw,I'm really enjoying this convo with you.Even if it doesn't always seem that way!! 

To set the tone, first let me say I do not enjoy long drawn out internet conversations. I get a bit peevish like old Walder. Keeping that in mind, I rarely come up an unique or original response.  The two old hoary warlords came down from their hills to find out what was going on.  They are curious and I am not privy to what Stannis told the various clans while Stannis was recruiting his way southward.

Speaking for myself only, sometimes the material martin writes is merely the spinning of a yarn/tale. A story teller. If martin had released his books in a timely manner you and I (we) would not be having this conversation. That is a long winded way of saying I dunna know.

12 hours ago, redriver said:

We have no indication that the man in the cave Bran and co met in the cave was in any way decrepid or suffering from the ravages of old age.Yet it's his son Morgan who is not only marching to Winterfell but has helped persuade Stannis to march there too.

Agree. The identifier Bran mentions is the Liddle pine cone thingamajig.   ***** This is an edit: Freeking shyte I dunna pay attention to.   Morgan is in Stannis' group of northern clansmen. The part about Morgan persuading I disagree with.

I will agree Torren Liddle's whereabouts is unknown. Yet, I will say again that Myrtle in my opinion is not a man. My reasoning behind that was/is an old man's facial hair is difficult to manicure. If Myrtle is a man Myrtle would need to be shaving at least twice a day.  Below is what you posted in the opening:

Quote

This old mother character,we later find out, is Myrtle.We first meet her after the HM incident where Theon describes her as gaunt,older,tall and grey haired with a deep voice.I suggest to you,as Martin suggests to us, that this is a man and this man is the chief of House Liddle.

As you stated there is no description of Torren Liddle therefore I canna compare Torren to Myrtle. It not the same as when Reek/Theon gave a description of Karstark and Umber at the Dreadfort.

Believe it not martin and his editors do make errors. Case in point would be Manderly told Davos that Mandlerly needed to go to WF to attend a wedding.  That happens before Mandley arrives at Barrowton and before Roose moves the wedding to WF. Either Manderly lied to Davos, or there was an error.

As an aside ---

Taking into consideration Mance likes his bard identity Mance may verra well have contacts among the northmen. Mance, when he was young traveled with LC Qorgyle to WF.  Mance also managed to get to WF for King Bob's visit. Very few people may know what Mance looks like in his middle age.

Cheers.

 

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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10 hours ago, redriver said:

Remember the Bran scene in Clash with someone who Bran identifies as Torren Liddle reveals exactly what was happening in the North?

Sure, but there's not really any reason to assume that Torren Liddle is Myrtle, as far as I can see.

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On 3/10/2019 at 12:01 AM, Alaynsa Starne said:

Sure, but there's not really any reason to assume that Torren Liddle is Myrtle, as far as I can see.

Myrtle did not leave Castle Black with Mance.The spearwives who left with Mance were "young ones and pretty" and they were selected by Mance."Mance supplied some names,Dolorous Ed did the rest,smuggling them out of Mole's Town".

Myrtle is neither young nor pretty-she has to pass as Abel's mother and Abel has grey hair himself.

The likely route Mance and the spearwives took headed them towards the high lands where the mountain clans are based,and also as a matter of interest where the Umbers have pastures where they graze their sheep.

I don't know if the Mance and the Liddle knew each other before this (I suspect they probably did) but I do know they are both ardent Stark loyalists,they both want the Boltons out of Winterfell and they both want to rescue Arya,fake or not from Ramsay.

So they met,talked.The Liddle decided he was going to Winterfell with Abel.His son Morgan would lead the Liddle forces with Stannis (or already had?).The Liddle would play the part of a washerwoman who actually washes clothes.She is not seen in the Great Hall or flirting with any men.

Means,motive and opportunity all accounted for.Myrtle is last seen headed to the Hall,"her hooded cloak,snapping in the wind".

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3 hours ago, redriver said:

Myrtle did not leave Castle Black with Mance.The spearwives who left with Mance were "young ones and pretty" and they were selected by Mance."Mance supplied some names,Dolorous Ed did the rest,smuggling them out of Mole's Town".

Myrtle is neither young nor pretty-she has to pass as Abel's mother and Abel has grey hair himself.

The likely route Mance and the spearwives took headed them towards the high lands where the mountain clans are based,and also as a matter of interest where the Umbers have pastures where they graze their sheep.

I don't know if the Mance and the Liddle knew each other before this (I suspect they probably did) but I do know they are both ardent Stark loyalists,they both want the Boltons out of Winterfell and they both want to rescue Arya,fake or not from Ramsay.

So they met,talked.The Liddle decided he was going to Winterfell with Abel.His son Morgan would lead the Liddle forces with Stannis (or already had?).The Liddle would play the part of a washerwoman who actually washes clothes.She is not seen in the Great Hall or flirting with any men.

Means,motive and opportunity all accounted for.Myrtle is last seen headed to the Hall,"her hooded cloak,snapping in the wind".

I guess my only question is, if the Liddle is posing as Myrtle, then what would cause him to suddenly shed that disguise and go tramping across the yard? And then slip the Myrtle disguise back on a short while later to confront Theon on the godswood?

If you haven't read this, here is the best theory on the HM that I've seen:

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-hooded-man-uncloaked/

 

It's too bad we don't get a physical description of either the Liddle or the Hooded Man, but we do have their speech. For what it's worth:

Quote

The Liddle:

"Not so far as the raven flies. Farther for them as lacks wings."

"When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There's squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers."

"The Bastard's boys, aye. He was dead, but now he's not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead. As to the Wall, it's not a place that I'd be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that came back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that's even darker. It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and the young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left to us is the ghosts."

"And how would you be knowing, boy?"

"Some nights I dream of me mother that I buried nine years past. but when I wake, she's not come back to me."

Do you hear how colloquial his speech is? "How would you be knowing" and "I dream of me mother. . ."

Contrast that with the HM:

Quote

"Theon Turncloack. Theon Kinslayer"

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"I leave you to him, then."

We don't have quite as much from the HM, but what we do have suggest a rather more erudite speaker -- someone who uses proper tense, ie, "False is all you were," not "False is all you was," avoids contractions and seems to know when to use an adverb and when to use an adjective. 

But it is interesting to note a few things about the Liddle:

First, he is wearing a gold and bronze clasp on his cloak, which suggests he is not a commoner but someone of importance. Secondly, we have Jojen's response to the line about seeing his mother in his dreams: "There are dreams and dreams, my lord." Why would Jojen use that phrase unless he was sure he was a lord? He most likely deduced this from the clasp, but mayhaps he also saw this encounter in a dream and he knows that this man is a lord. But to make the leap that this same man is now Myrtle is quite a stretch, IMO.

Also, Stark fans should take heart that when the Liddle says the Starks are gone from Winterfell, Jojen says they will return because he saw it in a dream.

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14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I guess my only question is, if the Liddle is posing as Myrtle, then what would cause him to suddenly shed that disguise and go tramping across the yard? And then slip the Myrtle disguise back on a short while later to confront Theon on the godswood?

If you haven't read this, here is the best theory on the HM that I've seen:

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-hooded-man-uncloaked/

 

It's too bad we don't get a physical description of either the Liddle or the Hooded Man, but we do have their speech. For what it's worth:

Do you hear how colloquial his speech is? "How would you be knowing" and "I dream of me mother. . ."

Contrast that with the HM:

We don't have quite as much from the HM, but what we do have suggest a rather more erudite speaker -- someone who uses proper tense, ie, "False is all you were," not "False is all you was," avoids contractions and seems to know when to use an adverb and when to use an adjective. 

But it is interesting to note a few things about the Liddle:

First, he is wearing a gold and bronze clasp on his cloak, which suggests he is not a commoner but someone of importance. Secondly, we have Jojen's response to the line about seeing his mother in his dreams: "There are dreams and dreams, my lord." Why would Jojen use that phrase unless he was sure he was a lord? He most likely deduced this from the clasp, but mayhaps he also saw this encounter in a dream and he knows that this man is a lord. But to make the leap that this same man is now Myrtle is quite a stretch, IMO.

Also, Stark fans should take heart that when the Liddle says the Starks are gone from Winterfell, Jojen says they will return because he saw it in a dream.

Not sure where disguise is coming from.Myrtle can wear the same cloak as the HM or as a washerwoman.Just a matter of shaving once in a while,thereafter it's question of posture and demeanour.

Of course it's the Liddle in the cave.I thought we were all beyond that at this stage?

Not enough grammar from the HM for proof either way.

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On 4/12/2019 at 1:38 PM, redriver said:

Not sure where disguise is coming from.Myrtle can wear the same cloak as the HM or as a washerwoman.Just a matter of shaving once in a while,thereafter it's question of posture and demeanour.

Of course it's the Liddle in the cave.I thought we were all beyond that at this stage?

Not enough grammar from the HM for proof either way.

If the Liddle is posing as Myrtle, then he is obviously disguising himself as a women, no? Otherwise people would say Abel, his five spearwives and that other guy. And Theon wouldn't see an older woman with a deep voice in the godswood, he'd see a man. And then later he wouldn't see a hooded man striding across the yard, he would see Myrtle, Abel's older spearwife. And the hooded man would not react to Theon as if he didn't just see him in the godswood. So if the Liddle has been posing as Myrtle all this time, why would he suddenly stop posing as Myrtle to become the hooded man?

Yes, the Liddle in the cave. That's where all those quotes come from. Where did you get the idea I was speaking of anyone else?

Yes, there is not enough speech from the HM to make a firm conclusion, but what is there suggests two different people. If this is one and the same person, he would have to be a pretty good mummer, and I don't get the impression that mummery is a valued skill among the northern clans.

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16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If the Liddle is posing as Myrtle, then he is obviously disguising himself as a women, no? Otherwise people would say Abel, his five spearwives and that other guy. And Theon wouldn't see an older woman with a deep voice in the godswood, he'd see a man. And then later he wouldn't see a hooded man striding across the yard, he would see Myrtle, Abel's older spearwife. And the hooded man would not react to Theon as if he didn't just see him in the godswood. So if the Liddle has been posing as Myrtle all this time, why would he suddenly stop posing as Myrtle to become the hooded man?

Yes, the Liddle in the cave. That's where all those quotes come from. Where did you get the idea I was speaking of anyone else?

Yes, there is not enough speech from the HM to make a firm conclusion, but what is there suggests two different people. If this is one and the same person, he would have to be a pretty good mummer, and I don't get the impression that mummery is a valued skill among the northern clans.

Good points.Didn't have my thinking head on that day!Sorry!

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Posted (edited)
On 4/15/2019 at 3:59 PM, redriver said:

Yes, there is not enough speech from the HM to make a firm conclusion, but what is there suggests two different people. If this is one and the same person, he would have to be a pretty good mummer, and I don't get the impression that mummery is a valued skill among the northern clans.

Again apologies for my stupid answer last time but this part requires a revisit.Whoever was in that cave to meet Bran and party was clearly acting.He does not introduce himself,nor does he ask for any names.All very weird.

His response should have been something like "I'm Torren Liddle,you're Brandon Stark,and I'm taking you to stay in my holdfast until this whole Game of Thrones stuff blows over".But no,he makes some mysterious comments which demonstrate a knowledge of everything that's happening from Winterfell to beyond the Wall.Does he have an agenda?

That is acting,that is mummery,that is playing your cards very close.

When Yara's Ironborn are attacked at Deepwood Motte,the mountain clans are disguised as trees,bushes,foliage.That's acting,mummery,camouflage.A valued skill.

And the HM is acting too.No intro from him,but he recognizes Theon.And here we have one of the larger stumbling blocks to this theory.He calls  him turncloak and kinslayer.Given that,in this theory, he's met Bran and he knows Theon didn't kill him and can surmise that he probably didn't kill Rickon either.But he's clearly playing a role,otherwise why not just kill Theon there and then?Because he knows Abel wants a word with him is why.

"I leave you to him then".

Nor did they. Only once did they encounter any of the mountain people, when a sudden burst of freezing rain sent them looking for shelter. Summer found it for them, sniffing out a shallow cave behind the greygreen branches of a towering sentinel tree, but when Hodor ducked beneath the stony overhang, Bran saw the orange glow of fire farther back and realized they were not alone. “Come in and warm yourselves,” a man’s voice called out. “There’s stone enough to keep the rain off all our heads.”
He offered them oatcakes and blood sausage and a swallow of ale from a skin he carried, but never his name; nor did he ask theirs. Bran figured him for a Liddle. The clasp that fastened his squirrelskin cloak was gold and bronze and wrought in the shape of a pinecone, and the Liddles bore pinecones on the white half of their green-and-white shields.
“Is it far to the Wall?” Bran asked him as they waited for the rain to stop.
“Not so far as the raven flies,” said the Liddle, if that was who he was. “Farther, for them as lacks wings.”
Bran started, “I’d bet we’d be there if...
“... we took the kingsroad,” Meera. finished with him.
The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. “When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a
maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There’s squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers.”
The Reeds exchanged a look. “Flayed men?” said Jojen.
“The Bastard’s boys, aye. He was dead, but now he’s not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead.” He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him. “As to that Wall,” the man went on, “it’s not a place that I’d be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that’s even darker.” He poked at the fire with his stick. “It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the
old wolf’s dead and young one’s gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that’s left us is the ghosts.”
“The wolves will come again,” said Jojen solemnly.
“And how would you be knowing, boy?”
“I dreamed it.”
“Some nights I dream of me mother that I buried nine years past,” the man said, “but when I
wake, she’s not come back to us.”
“There are dreams and dreams, my lord.”
“Hodor,” said Hodor.
They spent that night together, for the rain did not let up till well past dark, and only Summer seemed to want to leave the cave. When the fire had burned down to embers, Bran let him go. The direwolf did not feel the damp as people did, and the night was calling him. Moonlight painted the wet woods in shades of silver and turned the grey peaks white. Owls hooted through the dark and flew silently between the pines, while pale goats moved along the mountainsides. Bran closed his eyes and gave himself up to the wolf dream, to the smells and sounds of midnight.
When they woke the next morning, the fire had gone out and the Liddle was gone, but he’d left a sausage for them, and a dozen oatcakes folded up neatly in a green and white cloth. Some of the cakes had pinenuts baked in them and some had blackberries. Bran ate one of each, and still did not know which sort he liked the best. One day there would be Starks in Winterfell again, he told himself, and then he’d send for the Liddles and pay them back a hundredfold for every nut and berry.
(Bran II, ASoS)

To be honest I don't find much here that rules him out on speech basis -"and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead."

 

Edited by redriver

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On 3/4/2019 at 5:27 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

After the main players arrived at Barrowton Roose decided to move the wedding to WF. Roose did that to get at Stannis. Rosse has summed the lords to attend the wedding and swear fealty

Yes and one of those lords would be the Liddle.We have already established that the Liddles do use ravens (Maester Aemon sent them one),so would Roose not have sent one to Torren to attend and swear fealty?And would that not have arrived in time for Mance's arrival at Holdfast Liddle?I'm going to have to check my timelines on that one.

 

On 3/9/2019 at 9:48 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

As you stated there is no description of Torren Liddle therefore I canna compare Torren to Myrtle.

That's the entire point.There is no description of Torren Liddle or the HM.Why might that be?

As TEM pointed out to me the only other significant character who is not physically described in some way is Dalla.

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