Crasters White Walker arrangement

[Lollygag]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, what does that mean? Does he bear his curse because of what his father did? Like some original sin type thing, I doubt that.

And is this "bearing of a heavy curse", which is known to Freefolk, and at least something by Mormont, condoned by Crows and Wildlings? 

 

I don't know for sure on the curse thing and yeah, it's up for debate as to what she might mean by that. But I'm not down with the idea held by some on the forum that GRRM throws out stuff like this for no reason thus we can arbitrarily disregard text for whatever arbitrary reason we feel like using.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the second sentence, but Mormont and the Rangers are hiding things from Jon and the rest of the NW. Ygritte's "heavy curse", Dywen's noticing that Craster smells cold, and Jon thinking he doesn't seem human all point to Craster being different ~somehow~. 

ACOK Jon III

"My lord," Jon said quietly as the wood closed in around them once more. "Craster has no sheep. Nor any sons." 

Mormont made no answer.

"At Winterfell one of the serving women told us stories," Jon went on. "She used to say that there were wildlings who would lay with the Others to birth half-human children."

"Hearth tales. Does Craster seem less than human to you?"

In half a hundred ways. "He gives his sons to the wood."

A long silence. Then: "Yes." And "Yes," the raven muttered, strutting. "Yes, yes, yes."

"You knew?"

"Smallwood told me. Long ago. All the rangers know, though few will talk of it."

"Did my uncle know?"

"All the rangers," Mormont repeated. "You think I ought to stop him. Kill him if need be." The Old Bear sighed. "Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much the stronger. But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I. These boys are Craster's offerings. His prayers, if you will."

His wives must offer different prayers, Jon thought.

"How is it you came to know this?" the Old Bear asked him. "From one of Craster's wives?"

"Yes, my lord," Jon confessed. "I would sooner not tell you which. She was frightened and wanted help."

"The wide world is full of people wanting help, Jon. Would that some could find the courage to help themselves. Craster sprawls in his loft even now, stinking of wine and lost to sense. On his board below lies a sharp new axe. Were it me, I'd name it "Answered Prayer' and make an end."

Yes. Jon thought of Gilly. She and her sisters. They were nineteen, and Craster was one, but . . .

"Yet it would be an ill day for us if Craster died. Your uncle could tell you of the times Craster's Keep made the difference between life and death for our rangers."

"My father . . ." He hesitated.

"Go on, Jon. Say what you would say."

"My father once told me that some men are not worth having," Jon finished. "A bannerman who is brutal or unjust dishonors his liege lord as well as himself."

"Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night's Watch has other wars to fight."

Other wars. Yes. I must remember. "Jarman Buckwell said I might have need of my sword soon."

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know for sure on the curse thing and yeah, it's up for debate as to what she might mean by that. But I'm not down with the idea held by some on the forum that GRRM throws out stuff like this for no reason thus we can arbitrarily disregard text for whatever arbitrary reason we feel like using.

Certainly not. Every word is worthy of examination, sometimes even the punctuation. 

7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the second sentence, but Mormont and the Rangers are hiding things from Jon and the rest of the NW. Ygritte's "heavy curse", Dywen's noticing that Craster smells cold, and Jon thinking he doesn't seem human all point to Craster being different ~somehow~. 

ACOK Jon III

"My lord," Jon said quietly as the wood closed in around them once more. "Craster has no sheep. Nor any sons." 

Mormont made no answer.

"At Winterfell one of the serving women told us stories," Jon went on. "She used to say that there were wildlings who would lay with the Others to birth half-human children."

"Hearth tales. Does Craster seem less than human to you?"

In half a hundred ways. "He gives his sons to the wood."

A long silence. Then: "Yes." And "Yes," the raven muttered, strutting. "Yes, yes, yes."

"You knew?"

"Smallwood told me. Long ago. All the rangers know, though few will talk of it."

"Did my uncle know?"

"All the rangers," Mormont repeated. "You think I ought to stop him. Kill him if need be." The Old Bear sighed. "Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much the stronger. But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I. These boys are Craster's offerings. His prayers, if you will."

His wives must offer different prayers, Jon thought.

"How is it you came to know this?" the Old Bear asked him. "From one of Craster's wives?"

"Yes, my lord," Jon confessed. "I would sooner not tell you which. She was frightened and wanted help."

"The wide world is full of people wanting help, Jon. Would that some could find the courage to help themselves. Craster sprawls in his loft even now, stinking of wine and lost to sense. On his board below lies a sharp new axe. Were it me, I'd name it "Answered Prayer' and make an end."

Yes. Jon thought of Gilly. She and her sisters. They were nineteen, and Craster was one, but . . .

"Yet it would be an ill day for us if Craster died. Your uncle could tell you of the times Craster's Keep made the difference between life and death for our rangers."

"My father . . ." He hesitated.

"Go on, Jon. Say what you would say."

"My father once told me that some men are not worth having," Jon finished. "A bannerman who is brutal or unjust dishonors his liege lord as well as himself."

"Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night's Watch has other wars to fight."

Other wars. Yes. I must remember. "Jarman Buckwell said I might have need of my sword soon."

That's what I meant, the fact that Craster is a friend to both sides of the wall while remaining a godly man. 

So Mormonts reason for allowing Craster to leave his sons for the "wood" is 

13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

"Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws.

Which I kinda understand.

(Although not really. Mormont knows of the Others, and laments to Sam over their forgotten history. How/why isnt Craster under intensive questioning? After all Mormonts son is one of the smartest characters in asoiaf)

What I dont understand is Mance. He is King beyond the Wall, not King beyond Crasters house. So does Craster owe fealty to his king? And how is sacrificing your son/grandson to the Others not illigal?

[Ser Leftwich]

Craster is just exposing/killing his sons. It is not an arrangement.

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Craster is just exposing/killing his sons. It is not an arrangement.

Of course it is.

 

 

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

[Ida Hearst]

On 3/12/2019 at 5:30 PM, Damon_Tor said:

My pet theory for the Others: Towards the end of the war between the CotF and humanity, the CotF created Winter as a doomsday weapon to force humans to capitulate to their demands. The Others were the humans who refused to surrender, who instead chose to alter themselves to adapt to the Winter. Winter is returning because the pact between the Men and CotF has been broken in some major way (likely the Stark-in-Winterfell-clause) and the Others are just offering anyone who will accept it the ability to survive.

Only the Stark-in-Winterfell thing does not work out timewise: the Others are clearly on the move way before the AGoT prologue (as they're the reasons for the empty villages, either directly or indirectly by motivating Mance to collect people & motivating people to join him).

[Damon_Tor]

8 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

Only the Stark-in-Winterfell thing does not work out timewise: the Others are clearly on the move way before the AGoT prologue (as they're the reasons for the empty villages, either directly or indirectly by motivating Mance to collect people & motivating people to join him).

It's not a binary condition; the seasons come and go based on the general "Starkyness" of Winterfell, with true Fimbulwinter only hitting when Starkyness is at or very near zero. Ned Stark married a Southron woman and his bloodline was diluted. Catelyn had much less Stark blood than is typical for a Stark bride (The Northern Houses are rather impressively incestuous) so his kids were less Starky then usual to begin with.

If you think about it, this makes some sense: during a long, pleasant summer, the Stark is likely to travel from his castle, and to arrange marriages for his children from farther afield, lowering the Starkyness and bringing winter. By contrast, winter encourages the Stark to remain at Winterfell and forces him to find marriages for his children closer to home. This increases the Starkyness and brings spring. So we see an uneven and unpredictable cycle, but a cycle nonetheless.

[Mullocose]

On 3/9/2019 at 5:48 PM, maiden of tarth said:

How did Craster first start his deal in sacrificing his sons? How long have the White Walkers been in business with Craster? Has GRRM ever mentioned how this all came about? 

Craster is a town in the UK famous for making smoked RED HERRING...

--

Craster never had an agreement with the Others, his wives just thought he did...