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Missandei’s comment - Daenerys

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Posted (edited)

I'm surprised to see that people are still using a contemporary definition of the word "mad." This story takes place in a setting where basic things like depression, anger and hallucinations are referred to by the largely uneducated and illiterate characters as "madness." The obvious implication is that "The Mad King" did not necessarily earn his name by burning people alive, by seeing traitors everywhere, or by refusing to cut his fingernails. He earned it when he accused one of his well-intentioned advisors of treason one too many times, as Dany has been doing to Tyrion with some regularity for two seasons now.

Was Tyrion out of line to broach the subject of Dany's succession? Unless someone is going to take up the position that Tyrion was, in fact, hopeful for Dany to die, as Dany accused him, then I don't understand why people are confused that fans are jumping off the Daenerys Express in droves.

Does anyone honestly believe, as Dany seems eager to believe, that Tyrion is plotting with Cersei to betray Daenerys? We know Tyrion as well or better than any other character in the story. We know his heart as well as we know Daenerys's heart, and so I can't imagine that anyone here truly believes that Tyrion has anything less than Dany's best interests at heart when he expresses concerns about succession in the very possible event that she dies.

"Which means you're either a traitor or a fool."
"I was a fool!"
"Not for the first time."

Look how terrified Tyrion is that Dany is going to name him a traitor and execute him. It's absolutely absurd to me that it has taken this long for people to recognize Hitler On A Dragon, and beyond absurd that even now there are still people defending her every move.

How many parallels do the writers have to draw between Dany and her father before we begin to think, hey, maybe all this talk about "I'm not my father" is the opposite of true?

Edited by rustythesmith

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, rustythesmith said:

He earned it when he accused one of his well-intentioned advisors of treason one too many times, as Dany has been doing to Tyrion with some regularity for two seasons now.

Thank You! I also wonder if people forget the coin flip analogy? Jon and Dany both have a 50/50 shot at being "mad". The chance is probably higher for Dany due to the inbreeding. I would also think Jon has less of a chance due to the infusion of Stark blood.  We don't know how Jorah dying will effect her mood yet either. She lost her most trusted advisor and is left with her least trusted. This in turn could easily breed more paranoia of which she already has plenty. The last few seasons all of her "good" choices were made by her advisors against her actual wishes. What happens when she stops listening to them completely? There is a reason they have set up conflict between Dany and two of Jon's closest people.  Dany vs. Sansa will come up again and I am sure Sam will be there to have some input as well.

If I talk to anyone outside this forum about the possibility of Dany going mad they lose their freaking minds like there is zero foreshadowing for it in the show and I have to stop spoiling their t.v. with my book learning. I think I noticed her hint of madness in the books and it helped me see it more clearly in the show but it's there. This is still loosely based on Martin's work. I can't think of another show or book series where in the end it technically comes down to the good guys vs. the good guys. To see our favorite characters battle it out against one another is something I have been waiting for since all of the characters started coming together. The AotD gave them a common enemy but as was recently pointed out they have all been on opposite sides of wars in the very recent past. Cersei could die in ep. 4 or 5 & some weird wtf moment could easily make that happen again. 

Edited by For Highgarden
clarity

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Dany terrorized the entire region of Slaver's Bay by inflicting her self-righteous anti-slavery values upon ancient civilizations that she did not understand. Tyrion's "7 year" compromise demonstrates clearly how naive Dany's approach was from the beginning, and how Dany had been ill served by the vengeful exiles, ex-slaves and ambitious climbers who advise her.

Dany's "kneel or die" ultimatum after the Field of Fire is very much meant to echo Joffrey's "kneel or die" offer to Ned.

Robb's mercy toward Jaime is meant to contrast Dany's brutality toward Randyll and Dickon Tarly.

"He's more use to us alive than dead."

Cersei's mercy toward Ned, to allow him to think things over in a dark cell, contrasts with Dany's refusal of Tyrion's suggestion that "Nothing scrubs bold notions from a man's head like a few weeks in a dark cell."

Dany's reasoning for burning House Tarly is meant to echo Joffrey's reasoning for beheading Ned.

Joffrey: "So long as I am your King, treason shall never go unpunished."
Dany: "If that becomes an option many will take it."
Translation: There is no room for mercy.

Dany's line also demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of the Westerosi war customs. If the prisoners are not valuable enough to be prisoners, the correct response isn't to offer them an ultimatum of loyalty or death. The correct response is to set the low value prisoners free. The Lords of Westeros know that the war is between Lords and Lords, not Lords and smallfolk. The smallfolk ultimately don't care who sits on the throne. They only want to survive the wars that the Lords wage and return to their homes. Whichever asshole Lord wins the war, she will need those smallfolk alive to run the farms from which she collects the food and taxes.

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When Sansa was worried about food stores and whether or not they had enough for winter she could have taken the question a little more seriously if she was worried about taking care of the smallfolk. 

I don't think letting an entire Castle full of people starve so you can feed your dragons is very noble. Being snarky about them eating whatever they want isn't helpful to the situation when you are trying to keep an entire region full of people who are about to go to battle fed.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rustythesmith said:

I'm surprised to see that people are still using a contemporary definition of the word "mad." This story takes place in a setting where basic things like depression, anger and hallucinations are referred to by the largely uneducated and illiterate characters as "madness." The obvious implication is that "The Mad King" did not necessarily earn his name by burning people alive, by seeing traitors everywhere, or by refusing to cut his fingernails. He earned it when he accused one of his well-intentioned advisors of treason one too many times, as Dany has been doing to Tyrion with some regularity for two seasons now.

Was Tyrion out of line to broach the subject of Dany's succession? Unless someone is going to take up the position that Tyrion was, in fact, hopeful for Dany to die, as Dany accused him, then I don't understand why people are confused that fans are jumping off the Daenerys Express in droves.

Does anyone honestly believe, as Dany seems eager to believe, that Tyrion is plotting with Cersei to betray Daenerys? We know Tyrion as well or better than any other character in the story. We know his heart as well as we know Daenerys's heart, and so I can't imagine that anyone here truly believes that Tyrion has anything less than Dany's best interests at heart when he expresses concerns about succession in the very possible event that she dies.

"Which means you're either a traitor or a fool."
"I was a fool!"
"Not for the first time."

Look how terrified Tyrion is that Dany is going to name him a traitor and execute him. It's absolutely absurd to me that it has taken this long for people to recognize Hitler On A Dragon, and beyond absurd that even now there are still people defending her every move.

How many parallels do the writers have to draw between Dany and her father before we begin to think, hey, maybe all this talk about "I'm not my father" is the opposite of true?

 Dany has not to be paranoid to distrust Tyrion, whose behaviour IS suspicious, or at least, not consistent with what we know of him. 

Where is the Tyrion of the first two seasons, the one whose intelligence we saw in action, not just by "witty remarks", but effectively taking control of the people and circumstances around him? Tyrion has not done one  single thing well, practically since he is with Daenerys. Since they arrived to Westeros, he didn't give a single piece of worthy advice . He was outplayed by Euron (a pirate), by Jaime (not the most intelligent of the three siblings), more  recently by Cercei . Even before, in Essos, was outplayed by the Masters (when Dany was absent in the khalasar adventure),  he made a deal with them against Missandei and Greyworm's opinion,  and almost lost the city, which was saved by the most oportune Dany's return. 

So "or you are a fool, or you are a traitor" is what anyone with a working brain cell would think. I don't believe in this new stupid Tyrion, it is completely "out of character". But, as you say, it's hard to think that he is plotting with Dany's enemies. But, what Dany sees as her best interest, might be not what Tyrion sees as the best, so she might consider a treason something that it's not (in his eyes)

Problem is, with the inconsistencies in all characters, it's difficult to discern what's happening, or if it's just bad writing, that they need Tyrion to behave stupid for some things to happen. Just as they needed Jon to act stupid and Sansa to act conspiratory in the Battle of the  Bastards,  because they wanted to have that "Vale-Gandalf" moment. I remember the long discussions here back then, between team Jon and team Sansa, all pointless... It was just bad writing.

Perhaps this is happening now with Dany, and also with Tyrion (the bad writing), and Dany is not becoming a despot, and Tyrion is not a traitor. Or, who knows, his travel across the doomed Valyria took his intelligence away.

Edited by LucyMormont

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

 Dany has not to be paranoid to distrust Tyrion, whose behaviour IS suspicious, or at least, not consistent with what we know of him. 

Where is the Tyrion of the first two seasons, the one whose intelligence we saw in action, not just by "witty remarks", but effectively taking control of the people and circumstances around him? Tyrion has not done one  single thing well, practically since he is with Daenerys. Since they arrived to Westeros, he didn't give a single piece of advice worthy. He was outplayed by Euron (a pirate), by Jaime (not the most intelligent of the three siblings), more  recently by Cercei . Even before, in Essos, was outplayed by the Masters (when Dany was absent in the khalasar adventure),  he made a deal with them against Missandei and Greyworm's opinion,  and almost lost the city, which was saved by the most oportune Dany's return. 

So "or you are a fool, or you are a traitor" is what anyone with a working brain cell would think. I don't believe in this new stupid Tyrion, it is completely "out of character". But, as you say, it's hard to think that he is plotting with Dany's enemies. But, what Dany sees as her best interest, might be not what Tyrion sees as the best, so she might consider a treason something that it's not (in his eyes)

Problem is, with the inconsistencies in all characters, it's difficult to discern what's happening, or if it's just bad writting, that they need Tyrion to behave stupid for some things to happen. Just as they needed Jon to act stupid and Sansa to act conspiratory in the Battle of the  Bastards,  because they wanted to have that "Vale-Gandalf" moment. I remember the long discussions here back then, between team Jon and team Sansa, all pointless... It was just bad writting.

Perhaps this is happening now with Dany, and also with Tyrion (the bad writing), and Dany is not becoming a despot, and Tyrion is not a traitor. Or, who knows, his travel across the doomed Valyria took his intelligence away.

As a viewer you have nearly all of the relevant information. You can see that Tyrion is sincere in his devotion to Dany and has been sincere from the moment he met her. You can't point to a single betrayal that Tyrion has committed against Dany. You're practically omniscient, yet still, you defend Dany's accusations of treason against Tyrion because... why? Her situation is sympathetic? From her point of view, her suspicion is warranted?

Aerys thought his suspicions were warranted too. At this rate, Dany is following exactly in her father's footsteps. But you're probably right. It's all just a big mistake in the writing, this isn't at all what was intended and the story will soon be corrected back on the path to Beautiful Good Guy Saves The World With Dragons, Gets Revenge On Everyone And Lives Happily Ever After With Her Boo.

Edited by rustythesmith

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Tyrion may be sincere in his devotion to Dany, but every piece of advice he has given her has either been wrong or worse than useless. He has to be the worst hand on record. From her perspective he must either be a traitor or a total liability to her cause. Admittedly, this is probably a result of poor writing as the show keeps emphasising how smart Tyrion is supposed to be. 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, rustythesmith said:

As a viewer you have nearly all of the relevant information. You can see that Tyrion is sincere in his devotion to Dany and has been sincere from the moment he met her. You can't point to a single betrayal that Tyrion has committed against Dany. You're practically omniscient, yet still, you defend Dany's accusations of treason against Tyrion because... why? Her situation is sympathetic? From her point of view, her suspicion is warranted?

Aerys thought his suspicions were warranted too. At this rate, Dany is following exactly in her father's footsteps.

As a viewer, MY suspicion is warranted. I can see that Tyrion is not the Tyrion I know. The Tyrion I know would have NEVER, EVER, trusted Cercei, not even feeling guilty for Myrcella, not even if she was pregnant. The Tyrion I know would have known who she is, would have had a plan for evey contingence since he set foot on Dragonstone, would have had good intel about what the opponents were planning,

He has made many mistakes, that a clever man like him couldn't have made. And even when he only made mistake after mistake  since he's in Westeros, we had other characters reminding us what a terrific mind he has. 

And Dany is not accusing him, she is saying the same that I'm saying, that or he is a fool, or he is a traitor. My third possibility is "he is bad writen, the plot needs him to act stupid, but they want to set him as intelligent despite not doing anything intelligent, so they make other characters say how intelligent he is"

And I also don't like some of the signs in Dany's behavior. The Tarlys thing was a big red flag in my book, and her reaction when Jon told her who he is, and also the excesive "ma throne, bend the knee". But as others have said, truth is that she risked everything, and lost a lot, not for the throne but for something more important. So, I don't think she's definitely in the dark path, that is yet to be seen. Anyway, none of my red flags about Dany are related with Tyrion, that she is wondering about him is logical to me. 

Edited by LucyMormont

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4 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

As a viewer, MY suspicion is warranted. I can see that Tyrion is not the Tyrion I know. The Tyrion I know would have NEVER, EVER, trusted Cercei, not even feeling guilty for Myrcella, not even if she was pregnant. The Tyrion I know would have known who she is, would have had a plan for evey contingence since he set foot on Dragonstone, would have had good intel about what the opponents were planning,

He has made many mistakes, that a clever man like him couldn't have made. And even when he only made mistake after mistake  since he's in Westeros, we had other characters reminding us what a terrific mind he has. 

And Dany is not accusing him, she is saying the same that I'm saying, that or he is a fool, or he is a traitor. My third possibility is "he is bad writen, the plot needs him to act stupid, but they want to set him as intelligent despite not doing anything intelligent, so they make other characters say how intelligent he is"

And I also don't like some of the signs in Dany's behavior. The Tarlys thing was a big red flag in my book, and her reaction when Jon told her who he is, and also the excesive "ma throne, bend the knee". But as others have said, truth is that she risked everything, and lost a lot, not for the throne but for something more important. So, I don't think she's definitely in the dark path, that is yet to be seen. Anyway, none of my red flags about Dany are related with Tyrion, that she is wondering about him is logical to me. 

The Tyrion I know has a hopeless desire to love and be loved by his sister. Tyrion knows that Cersei's hatred toward him is rooted in the fact that their mother died giving birth to him. It's both completely unreasonable and completely understandable, because Cersei was still a young girl.

Cersei has grown into an adult, but her unreasonable hatred has not grown into reasonable forgiveness. She clings to her unreasonable hatred of Tyrion and the emotional reasoning that produced it because, having treated Tyrion so poorly for so long, she feels that she must continue treating him poorly or else contradict the comfortable fiction that Cersei The Girl never did anything wrong to begin with.

Tyrion has always trusted Cersei, and that was demonstrated recently in Season 7 when he entered the lion's den and challenged her to execute him. She failed that challenge, reaffirming Tyrion's certainty that some part of her loves him or at least appreciates the fact that he loves her enough to risk certain death by walking into that room alone and unarmed to negotiate a war that he could easily win without negotiation if only he were as willing to kill her as she pretends to want to kill him.

What mistakes are we condemning Tyrion for, exactly? That he believed Cersei when she said she was going to send an army north? We all saw that meeting. Tyrion wasn't the only one who believed her. Dany believed her. Jon believed her. Everyone believed her. Sansa even references this in episode 2 when Dany brings it up.

"He shouldn't have trusted Cersei."
"You shouldn't have trusted her either."

And what was the alternative anyway? Not believe her? Cersei is agreeing to do exactly what they asked her to do. Why should Tyrion, Dany or Jon refuse Cersei's offer to do exactly what Tyrion, Dany and Jon asked her to do? If they were going to call Cersei a liar regardless of Cersei's response, then why did they bother asking in the first place? This criticism just doesn't make sense from any angle I can see.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

Does anyone honestly believe, as Dany seems eager to believe, that Tyrion is plotting with Cersei to betray Daenerys? We know Tyrion as well or better than any other character in the story. We know his heart as well as we know Daenerys's heart, and so I can't imagine that anyone here truly believes that Tyrion has anything less than Dany's best interests at heart when he expresses concerns about succession in the very possible event that she dies.

 

2 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

As a viewer you have nearly all of the relevant information. You can see that Tyrion is sincere in his devotion to Dany and has been sincere from the moment he met her. You can't point to a single betrayal that Tyrion has committed against Dany. You're practically omniscient, yet still, you defend Dany's accusations of treason against Tyrion because... why? Her situation is sympathetic? From her point of view, her suspicion is warranted?

As a viewer who have nearly all the relevant information, and who actually likes Tyrion, I'm actually unsure of Tyrions loyalties to Daenerys.
We're meant to question Tyrions loyalties, the show has intentionally been filmed in a way that puts Tyrion in a suspicious light:

- His conversations about Daenerys going mad with Varys, he's seemingly trying to convince himself that he did the right choice. 
- The way he looked on the boat when he realized that Daenerys and Jon where getting it on, a look of pure disapproval. 
- The way he looked when the Lannisters, including Jamie, was getting their asses handed during the field of battle.
- The way he has continuously been making decisions and giving bad advice since S6.
- The way we didn't get to know what he and Cersei had been talking about in S7E7.


And then the major one: Technically he admitted to having betrayed Daenerys (in a sense) back in S7, when he told Cersei that "Daenerys didn't want to bring you words, she wanted to bring you fire and blood, until I adviced her otherwise, I don't want to destroy our family, I never have"
This is actually Tyrion admitting that he's actively been throwing monkey wrenches in the works, regarding Daenerys invasion plans, because while he does want Daenerys to win, he doesn't want his siblings to die in the process, so he's actively giving Daenerys bad advice, which culminated in the whole wight-hunt, which most of us would agree on being the single most idiotic thing anyones ever come up with in this show.

So yeah, to question Tyrions true intentions as a viewer at this stage is nothing strange at all, and neither is it to have Daenerys question his loyalties. I do hope he snaps out of it though, Cersei has since long lost the last good-will from him, and now he hasn't have to worry about Jamie in the same way either. Luckily it seems that old-Tyrion made a comeback somewhat in the latest episode. I just hope he doesn't start to think with his penis in regards to Sansa, and that her "divided loyalties"-comment was just the last nail in the coffin for Tyrsa-shippers. 

As for the rest of your posts, I'm not gonna bother.
When someone calls Daenerys "Hitler on a dragon", the bar is set so low that there really is no point in debating further...
 

Edited by MinscS2

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31 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

 

As a viewer who have nearly all the relevant information, and who actually likes Tyrion, I'm actually unsure of Tyrions loyalties to Daenerys.
We're meant to question Tyrions loyalties, the show has intentionally been filmed in a way that puts Tyrion in a suspicious light:

- His conversations about Daenerys going mad with Varys, he's seemingly trying to convince himself that he did the right choice. 
- The way he looked on the boat when he realized that Daenerys and Jon where getting it on, a look of pure disapproval. 
- The way he looked when the Lannisters, including Jamie, was getting their asses handed during the field of battle.
- The way he has continuously been making decisions and giving bad advice since S6.
- The way we didn't get to know what he and Cersei had been talking about in S7E7.


And then the major one: Technically he admitted to having betrayed Daenerys (in a sense) back in S7, when he told Cersei that "Daenerys didn't want to bring you words, she wanted to bring you fire and blood, until I adviced her otherwise, I don't want to destroy our family, I never have"
This is actually Tyrion admitting that he's actively been throwing monkey wrenches in the works, regarding Daenerys invasion plans, because while he does want Daenerys to win, he doesn't want his siblings to die in the process, so he's actively giving Daenerys bad advice, which culminated in the whole wight-hunt, which most of us would agree on being the single most idiotic thing anyones ever come up with in this show.

So yeah, to question Tyrions true intentions as a viewer at this stage is nothing strange at all, and neither is it to have Daenerys question his loyalties. I do hope he snaps out of it though, Cersei has since long lost the last good-will from him, and now he hasn't have to worry about Jamie in the same way either. Luckily it seems that old-Tyrion made a comeback somewhat in the latest episode. I just hope he doesn't start to think with his penis in regards to Sansa, and that her "divided loyalties"-comment was just the last nail in the coffin for Tyrsa-shippers. 

As for the rest of your posts, I'm not gonna bother.
When someone calls Daenerys "Hitler on a dragon", the bar is set so low that there really is no point in debating further...
 

 

I completely agree with you. Dany suspecting Tyrion is not illogical, his family is at a stake and that’s supposed to be a hard call. After all we also know Tyrion’s love about Jamie. 

As for the mad thing is quite silly even to be mentioned after Dany did to help John and the North. Cersei is by far a lunatic and I highly doubt there is room for two. The script writers just played with the idea of her ending mad for a while in order to create a plot around the North. 

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3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

 

As a viewer who have nearly all the relevant information, and who actually likes Tyrion, I'm actually unsure of Tyrions loyalties to Daenerys.
We're meant to question Tyrions loyalties, the show has intentionally been filmed in a way that puts Tyrion in a suspicious light:

I think you're misreading all of these scenes. The show isn't putting Tyrion in a suspicious light, they're showing that Tyrion is having second thoughts about Dany as a ruler.

Quote

- His conversations about Daenerys going mad with Varys, he's seemingly trying to convince himself that he did the right choice.

Yeah, he's trying to convince himself that he hasn't made the mistake of swearing undying loyalty to a future tyrant. Because judging from Dany's behavior and actions, she's behaving a whole lot like a future tyrant. "Let's talk about securing your rule with an heir" is met with accusations like "You've been thinking about my death a lot lately haven't you?" It's ridiculous and unwarranted.

Quote

- The way he looked on the boat when he realized that Daenerys and Jon where getting it on, a look of pure disapproval.

That was a look of concern. Disapproval is a stretch, but disapproval would not be unwarranted either. Tyrion was concerned about the political ramifications of his Queen carelessly sleeping with an ally during a time when she needs judgement unclouded by love and she needs to be maximally available for a political marriage rather than a romantic one.

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- The way he looked when the Lannisters, including Jamie, was getting their asses handed during the field of battle.

You mean the "She's killing my whole House and brother" look? I find it hard to believe that you actually believe that Tyrion's feelings during this battle are rooted in betrayal against Dany rather than a profound moment of self-doubt for Tyrion regarding his role in the slaughter and burning of his own bannermen and family. Not to mention the fact that Dany wasn't watching Tyrion's face while she was flying around on Drogon. So even if his face was laden with whatever betrayal you've projected onto him, Dany wouldn't have seen it. So it isn't a valid argument for why Dany is treating him like a traitor at every turn.

Quote

- The way he has continuously been making decisions and giving bad advice since S6.

I have yet to see anybody point out the "bad advice" that Tyrion has supposedly given to Dany. Is it in any way reasonable to expect Tyrion to have known that Jaime was marching the entire Lannister army out of Casterly Rock and towards Highgarden? There was nothing unreasonable about that plan, and the only reason it didn't work out is due to sheer bad luck.

Was it unreasonable to give the Slavers 7 years to end the practice of slavery? Maybe if Dany had taken an approach as measured as Tyrion's from the beginning, she wouldn't have slaughtered so many thousands of people by self-righteously inflicting upon them the freedom to starve to death.

Was it unreasonable to advise Dany to start worrying about the problem of succession? It would be a real shame if she fell off her dragon during one of her incineration vacations and left everyone loyal to her to suffer the consequences of their loyalty at the hands of Cersei. But I guess it wouldn't be the first time loyalty to Dany has gotten the loyal killed after she flies off into the sunset.
 

Quote

- The way we didn't get to know what he and Cersei had been talking about in S7E7.

The pregnancy? That was already revealed.

 

Quote

And then the major one: Technically he admitted to having betrayed Daenerys (in a sense) back in S7, when he told Cersei that "Daenerys didn't want to bring you words, she wanted to bring you fire and blood, until I adviced her otherwise, I don't want to destroy our family, I never have"
This is actually Tyrion admitting that he's actively been throwing monkey wrenches in the works, regarding Daenerys invasion plans, because while he does want Daenerys to win, he doesn't want his siblings to die in the process, so he's actively giving Daenerys bad advice, which culminated in the whole wight-hunt, which most of us would agree on being the single most idiotic thing anyones ever come up with in this show.

I don't know if you realize it, but you've just drawn a great parallel between Aerys and Dany. Which other character was ordered by his ruler to betray his own family? Hmmm

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors."

Quote

As for the rest of your posts, I'm not gonna bother. When someone calls Daenerys "Hitler on a dragon", there really is no point in debating further.

I imagine closing your eyes and plugging your ears will be an effective deterrent to cognitive dissonance for at least another day.

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10 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

I don't really know of Daenerys will go mad in the show, but I think there are signs of this possibility both in the books and in GoT.

The thing I didn't like the most about her was her reaction to the Aegon bomb: I get it, she's shocked, but it was really weird that the first think she felt was fear of losing the throne to Jon. She just had the confirmation that her brother Rhaegar wasn't a rapist, that she's not the last Targaryen in the world, and that there is a real possibility (in one way or another) that her House will continue after her and Jon die. But she immediately felt threatened. If her only hope is that the Targaryens retake the throne, she would be happy even if it were Jon to become king. She is a good conqueror, but not necessarily a good ruler... plus, she could marry Aegon and they would reign together.

The impression I got from the show is that she is indeed going mad... But I don't know if that's what D&D intended to be honest.

So my take of her reaction is just that she was trying to process it - at first there’s disbelief, then she is taking it in. And I do think it will be much more to her that there IS another living Targaryen, now that the news has settled in. I think it would be highly unbelievable to expect her to do a jump for joy/relief in the first few minutes after she’s been told her lover is her nephew and she isn’t the only Targaryen in the world - but I do think some positive feelings are going to be coming soon. :)

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9 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I thought so too, but given the increasing amount of theories regarding how Jon will kill Daenerys because of "insert-reason-here", dying in childbirth seems like a great ending for her in comparison. (Which it isn't, it would be a super lame way for her to go.)

Speaking about childbirth, I think we can all agree on the fact that if she ends up pregnant, not only will Jon not kill her, but she will live long enough to at least give birth to the child. (Hopefully longer.)

For me personally, I not only hope but I genuinely believe that she'll end up pregnant. There simply where to many hints, ques and teases from way to many characters last season for it to be a red herring. Especially Jorah's comment to Jon about Longclaw serving "your children after you" seemed to be more than just him being friendly. 
Heck, her non-pregnancy issue doesn't even have to be caused by blood magic in the show, I can see D&D hinting that Daario was simply shooting blanks...

Oh!! This is interesting - I had missed that comment from Jorah. Could you point to some of the other pregnancy clues/foreshadowing?

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7 hours ago, a girl knows nothing said:

I too am somewhat at a loss with how to view Dany. I certainly don’t think she is a villainous character, but she is certainly not the pure, good hearted savior she once aspired to be. At times she is portrayed as very volatile. Her moods and tempers come on quickly and strongly, and this can come across as a predisposition for Targaryen “madness.” Although I don’t foresee her turning out like Viserys or her father, perhaps her temperamental personality with its faint trace of instability is meant to give us pause and make us wonder. She wouldn’t be as interesting a character otherwise.

I agree that she is more volatile/acts on instinct and emotion sometimes - but that doesn’t make her evil or have the capability to suddenly turn on her closest allies/lover. I think her intentions have always been from a good place, and I DO think she wants to break the wheel, so to speak (and my hope is that at the end of this, the wheel is broken and the kingdoms are independent!). 

Case in point - when Jon and Dany are watching the battle from above Winterfell, and she sees her Dothraki die out. She jumped on Drogon to fly into battle, and Jon (levelheaded general that he is) said to wait and follow the plan. She couldn’t. She put her life on the line to help save Winterfell and the living, she felt the pain of losing her people. I don’t fault her for that - but in the next battle, I could see her acting on instinct again (perhaps if Jon/Rhaegal or Grey Worm/Missandei/Unsullied) die - so not going “evil” but perhaps doing something she hadn’t intended on doing as part of the battle plan, in her grief.

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The show indeed has wanted us to see Tyrion in bad light. His advice to Dany have been poor and it's so obvious to point out that Tyrion's motives might be suspicious. I've noticed that he has even doubted himself, too.

Currently it looks like to me that it has been Varys leading him astray. We haven't seen him do much recently but we've seen Tyrion and Varys discuss. Varys has been manipulating him, imo.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Petitephlox said:

Oh!! This is interesting - I had missed that comment from Jorah. Could you point to some of the other pregnancy clues/foreshadowing?

Oh I don't remember all of them, but on top of my head, in addition to Jorah:

- She tells Jon (and Jorah) on several occasions that "she can't have children" and that "the dragons are the only children she will ever have".
- Allegedly she's even told Tyrion this on at least one occasion, because he brought it up last season as well ("you say you can't have children")
- In the Dragonpit last season, Jon basically calls her out on it, asking who had told her that she can't, and she replies "the witch who murdered my husband", which brings us to...
- Miri Maz Duur and her prophecy: "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the winds like leaves". This initially sounds like MMD is just telling Daenerys "when hell freezes over", but as far as (vague) prophecies go, it can be considered fulfilled in the show by this point:
"Sun rises in the west and setting in the east" = Daenerys journey in Essos comes to an end and her journey in Westeros begins - check.
"When the seas go dry" = The Dothraki Sea (an actual place) went dry after Daenerys brought all the dothraki with her to Westeros - check.
"When mountains blow in the wind like leaves" = The Wall coming crashing down - check.
(In the books this prophecy is longer, but they cut most of it for the show.)

After all of this, cut to Jon and Daenerys having sex, because at this point Jon is no longer afraid of fathering a bastard. After all, Daenerys can't get pregnant...

Last season, the show basically told us over and over how Daenerys can't get pregnant, in the same way that the show in S8E2 over and over told us how the "crypts is the safest place". 

Is it a red herring? Possibly, but I don't think it is. Daenerys getting a real child and abdicating the throne (or refusing it altogether, focusing on her family) would be the perfect ending for her + it would mean that the Targaryen dynasty survives. 

The book makes a bigger point of this than the show has (she show touched it several times in S1 but then stopped in S2), but family is a big issue for Daenerys:
She hates being the last Targaryen.
She hates not getting to know Rhaegar.
She hates not having a (proper) home. 
She hates not being able to have children of her own.
She hates the thought of her house ending with her.

Since she can't have a home and a family - the first thing she prayed for in the show actually, (and again, is a major wish for her in the books), she instead shifted her focus on the Iron Throne. Now imagine her finding out she's pregnant. Suddenly everything that's previously been blocked from her - a home and a family - is possible again.
After all, she considers it her "duty" as the last Targaryen to rule the 7K and take back the Iron Throne, but what was it her great granduncle Aemon once said?

Love, is the death of duty...

 

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

That would be hilarious, but I have a feeling Cersei is no longer pregnant. I think she lost it, and hasn't had any more periods, hence her emotionally weird reaction when Euron said, "I'm going to put a prince in your belly."

It would tie into Lady Olenna's comment about her being too old to breed.

I think it means she's right back where she started: having to pretend another man than Jaime is the father of her child, same as she did with Robert. She's THE Queen, the one on the Iron Throne, and she still has to bed a man to ensure he doesn't sail off with his fleet, and pretend her children are his. She wanted all that power to do as she likes, and she's still not free to do as she likes.

Edited by sweetsunray

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6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think it means she's right back where she started: having to pretend another man than Jaime is the father of her child, same as she did with Robert. She's THE Queen, the one on the Iron Throne, and she still has to bed a man to ensure he doesn't sail off with his fleet, and pretend her children are his. She wanted all that power to do as she likes, and she's still not free to do as she likes.

I'd still like there to be something more behind Gendry's parentage. It would be wild if he really was Cersei's and Robert's son. Being "merely" Robert's bastard doesn't mean anything. Arya in that case having Gendry's child would create interesting family ties between Lannisters and Starks. 

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1 minute ago, Deminelle said:

I'd still like there to be something more behind Gendry's parentage. It would be wild if he really was Cersei's and Robert's son. Being "merely" Robert's bastard doesn't mean anything. Arya in that case having Gendry's child would create interesting family ties between Lannisters and Starks. 

Ugh, sorry, always hated that viewer theory. Gendry's important as part of the surviving evidence of Cersei's children Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella not being Baratheons. It does mean a lot that Robert fathered children on other blonde women, bastards, just like Cersei's children are bastards. It's a mirror situation, and shows the hypocrisy of the patriarchal system. Cersei and her children could be executed by Robert in S1 if he had lived and found out, while Robert's bastards can be legitimized and even made heir, and nobody would even consider Robert sleeping with other women outside of his marriage as treasonous. In the show, Joffrey was the one who ordered Robert's bastards killed, but in the books it's hinted that it was actually Cersei, and her arc is very much about what men can do, while women aren't allowed, and she wants to prove she can do exactly what men do, but in a twisted way.

It seems that most arcs in S8 turn around to put them in a similar situation as S1. Jaime and Tyrion believe Cersei pregnant. They both know it's Jaime's, while Cersei had to sleep with a man (she doesn't really want) to preserve an alliance, potentially pawn off her child as Euron's. Varys, Jon, and Davos know Gendry's paternity. Cersei admitted to Tyrion in s2 that her children aren't Roberts. We're back in a situation where enemies can threaten Cersei's position in the same way that Jon Arryn and Ned Stark once did, because Euron's the sole Westeros ally she has. For Gendry it also circles back round, because this was at the very least the secret that Ned Stark died for, and why he had to flee KL, survive all the horrors of the RL. Ned Stark even offered to take him into his household to become a "fighter" if Gendry ever wished it.

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