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Heresy 221 and the Children of Winterfell

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

But I think that Viserys is more or less a decoy and expendable.  He's the Targaryen heir and must be done away with in some fashion if Aegon is to take his place.

If Aegon was always the future Targ king in Mopatis' mind, you'd think Aegon would have been safeguarded a hell of a lot better than he was.

A river full of stone men and pirates is not exactly a safe place, as Jon Connington learns when he gets greyscale.   Same could have happened to Aegon at any time.

Also, of course, if Mopatis had wanted Viserys dead, that would have been easy to arrange.  One knife in the dark would have finished Viserys while he was living with Mopatis.  It never happened.

However, Varys does, by the end of ADWD, clearly want Aegon on the throne and Mopatis is his partner in crime, we know. 

So it might be this is just an area GRRM didn't think through very well.  Or perhaps he did, but he was afraid his plot would be too boring if Mopatis had done the smart thing and simply stashed all three of his Targs in completely safe locations all their lives, as he surely had the money to do.

 

 

 

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While blond, silver, and gold are common hair coloring for Targaryens, there are some with dark hair. Ser Harwin Strong fathered three bastard sons on Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen. All three inherited their father's brown hair.  King Daeron II married Mariah Martell. Their son, Prince Baelor had the dark hair of the Martells, as well as his  own sons Valarr and Matarys. These are just a few examples. There are many more.

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GRRM: Hold me.  I don't want it to end this way.

PARRIS: Look at me!  Look at me!  It doesn't matter.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yeah, that was quite a boring wrap up. Remind me, for what reason did Arya sail west? :dunno:

To get to the other side

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6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yeah, that was quite a boring wrap up. Remind me, for what reason did Arya sail west? :dunno:

To join Gandalf and Frodo. Or kill them.

For years I shortened Winterfell to WTF. Premonition, I guess.

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13 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

A late night crackpot for you guys entertainment because I can't sleep. What if X is a Targaryen theory too! You know how there are thoughts about Gerold Dayne being a son of Rhaella and Aerys right? What if Ashara Dayne was actually a Targaryen? In 267 ac Queen Rhaella gave birth to a daughter Shaena, Rhaegar was eight, who was stillborn. But Aerys, Rhaegar and half the court were at westerlands. Rhaella, who was hated her brother husband, and probably hated her own incestuous parents for her marriage based on a words of a woods witch, decide to save her own daughter from the same future. Ashara Dayne's age is never given but based on the information we have she should be born between 261-270 ac so things are great with this tinfoil. But the main issue is Ashara's hair, she is said to have dark hair by Barristan but that's up to debate. Barristan says Ashara's stillborn daughter would look like Daenerys, Jorah says Daenerys reminds him Lynesse, Lynesse's sister Alerie has silver hair, Daeron the Drunk had sandy blond hair and his mother was Dyanna Dayne. So it is possible Ashara had dark hair compared to other Arthur. Which will make Shaena's parentage questionable, but my man George never write about Hasty's hair color so no visable hole in my tinfoil armour yet. He also made Hasty serve for Merryweather at some point so Rhaella could be close to her first love even after her marriage. Bless. Years later Shaena returns to court as a lady in waiting for Elia, and at Harrenhall she is fourteen, has a Stormlander knight who love her but tragically ends up giving birth to her brother's baby, something Rhaella wanted to avoid, but said child, Daenerys is still the only Targaryen to hatch a dragon after their death, making her the Princess that was promised! Enjoy chapter one, I will post chapter two soon. 

We have the ssm stating unequivocally that the Daynes are not Targaryens. 

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Rhaella was not visibly pregnant leaving King's Landing.   It is impossible for a visibly pregnant woman to give birth in 9 months.

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20 hours ago, JNR said:

I think on this, we're just supposed to pretend it makes sense and not think too hard about it, like the idea the Andals could never have invaded the North by sea, or the idea that Winterfell sits on a pressurized water table and yet the crypts are not full of water.

GRRM may have taken some liberties with geology, but I believe he intends us to think about it.  Winterfell is warm, either because of something there, or it was built around a warm place.   There is a reason. 

I don't believe the water table is near the surface.   This could be geology similar to Iceland, mostly igneous rock with volcanoes and hot Springs.   That makes it harder to explain large cave systems and no earthquakes. 

Or it could be like Kentucky, mostly limestone with huge caves cut by water draining through it.  This fits perfectly if there is no geological reason for the heat.

Or Yellowstone, with huge amounts of magma and massive eruptions every 500,000 years or so, but relatively little geological activity in between,  complete with cave systems and hot Springs. 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM may have taken some liberties with geology, but I believe he intends us to think about it.  Winterfell is warm, either because of something there, or it was built around a warm place.   There is a reason. 

I don't believe the water table is near the surface.   This could be geology similar to Iceland, mostly igneous rock with volcanoes and hot Springs.   That makes it harder to explain large cave systems and no earthquakes. 

Or it could be like Kentucky, mostly limestone with huge caves cut by water draining through it.  This fits perfectly if there is no geological reason for the heat.

Or Yellowstone, with huge amounts of magma and massive eruptions every 500,000 years or so, but relatively little geological activity in between,  complete with cave systems and hot Springs. 

My guess is that it isn't limestone like we have in Kentucky. Northern buildings are often associated with Granite (Moat Cailin, Winterfell, etc.) Granite is formed from volcanoes, while limestone is formed by sedimentation. Either way, one makes good buildings and the other makes good bourbon. The North has a lot of good buildings, but no mention of delicious bourbon. So I'd think that the underlying stone would be Granite. That would indicate that there was some sort of volcanic or seismic activity in the North, at least in years gone by. 

 

That said, I do get a limestone feeling when I read about the CotF caves north of the Wall. It's just similar to the ones I have been in around the Midwest. 

 

15 hours ago, JNR said:

If Aegon was always the future Targ king in Mopatis' mind, you'd think Aegon would have been safeguarded a hell of a lot better than he was.

I don't think that Aegon would be floating the River the entirety of his life. On the move and being hidden sure, but not on the river. It's too dangerous and there isn't enough reward to justify it to Illyrio. My guess is that he spent his life wandering around the north western corner of Essos. Illyrio has connections in every town and probably flexed those to hide (F)Aegon. 

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We have the ssm stating unequivocally that the Daynes are not Targaryens. 

I am not talking about all Daynes I am talking about Gerold/Ashara being Targaryens, I know House Dayne isn't Valyrian/Targaryens themselves. 

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Just now, Jova Snow said:

I am not talking about all Daynes I am talking about Gerold/Ashara being Targaryens, I know House Dayne isn't Valyrian/Targaryens themselves. 

I can't find the full ssm, but remember GRRM saying neither Ashara Dayne nor Elizabeth Taylor were related to Aegon the Conqueror. 

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59 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

My guess is that it isn't limestone like we have in Kentucky. Northern buildings are often associated with Granite (Moat Cailin, Winterfell, etc.) Granite is formed from volcanoes, while limestone is formed by sedimentation. Either way, one makes good buildings and the other makes good bourbon. The North has a lot of good buildings, but no mention of delicious bourbon. So I'd think that the underlying stone would be Granite. That would indicate that there was some sort of volcanic or seismic activity in the North, at least in years gone by. 

 

That said, I do get a limestone feeling when I read about the CotF caves north of the Wall. It's just similar to the ones I have been in around the Midwest. 

I don't think anyone in Westeros drinks anything distilled.   If it is like Europe, distillation would exist, probably in the maesters and pyromancers, but be used for experiments and medicine, not beverages. 

Do we get descriptions of granite buildings?  Granite is much harder to work, and many great buildings were made of limestone which would have lasted forever without acid rain.   The 2 can be found together in mountainous areas and glaciated areas.  Quarrying granite from bedrock is probably beyond Westeros technology. 

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Rhaella was not visibly pregnant leaving King's Landing.   It is impossible for a visibly pregnant woman to give birth in 9 months.

I understand that. I’m questioning whether Dany was indeed born nine months after Rhaella left Dragonstone. She only had her brother Viserys to give her information, so that detail may be incorrect. I’m not saying Viserys lied - just that the tale is fanciful and from the memories of a little boy who likely wasn’t yet versed in the birds and the bees.

The phrasing in the text indicates multiple night time visits between Aerys and Rhaella, with the frequency being every time he burned someone - not just Chelsted.

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Posted (edited)

One thing from last night stood out for me and that was the reference to “the wheel” and how Dany wanted to break it - something D&D have had her say before. Then to have the Starks go in separate directions - Bran in the south, Sansa remaining in Winterfell, Jon heading north, and Arya heading west, plus Dany and Drogon’s return to the east - it just seemed obvious to me that the show was trying to do at least something with the wheel of time. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I understand that. I’m questioning whether Dany was indeed born nine months after Rhaella left Dragonstone. She only had her brother Viserys to give her information, so that detail may be incorrect. I’m not saying Viserys lied - just that the tale is fanciful and from the memories of a little boy who likely wasn’t yet versed in the birds and the bees.

The phrasing in the text indicates multiple night time visits between Aerys and Rhaella, with the frequency being every time he burned someone - not just Chelsted.

We can assume Rhaella died in labor during a large storm on Dragonstone almost 9 months after the sack of King's Landing.   Too many people would have witnessed that or the alternative events to call it into doubt. 

My theory is Rhaella died giving birth to a stillborn child, as she had numerous miscarriages before.  Rhaegar's daughter Daenerys was already born in Dorne and named after the first Daenerys, who also lived in Dorne.  For some reason the people hiding Dany decided it would work better to pass her off as Rhaella's daughter. 

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Going into last night's mess, 3 things stood out for me.

We saw snow in King's Landing, a relatively rare event.   It seemed tied to Jon's attitude, and possibly Arya's.   The show didn't do anything with it, but I have to wonder if it tied back to the Starks controlling the weather.   GRRM said the reasons for the seasons would be revealed in the end, but they skipped that part.

GRRM said how upset he was Gandalf came back from the dead as if nothing happened, the same bright cheery guy.  Yet that is exactly what the show gave us. 

We were promised 3 'holy shit' reveals, Hodor being the obvious one.   But what were the other 2?  Shireen burning has been mentioned,  but that was long foreshadowed in the books and not much of a surprise.   Everything in seasons 6 and 7 was predictable, except the Night King being defeated so easily and the mostly happily ever after Hollywood ending instead of the bittersweet we were promised. 

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12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Remind me, for what reason did Arya sail west?

It was just one of an infinite number of shameless non sequiturs that have characterized the show ever since it ran out of canon.   So the answer to your question is simply that in the twisted brains of D&D, it made some sort of sense.

Now, I'm sure there are still people who believe the show "is GRRM's ending," but really, that is just a ludicrous concept at this point. 

I don't think a single thing in that episode happens in the books... except, abstractly, Dany's death, which I imagine is the third "holy shit" moment GRRM gave D&D.  But if she dies in the books, I have no doubt the circumstances will be vastly more apt, unpredictable, and interesting than that.

I also think there's no earthly way GRRM could have appreciated that turd buffet, in whole or in part. 

I imagine it's crossed his mind that if he never publishes another ASOIAF novel, he has allowed Benioff and Weiss to define his story in the eyes of the world. Hopefully he'll do something about it.

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14 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We were promised 3 'holy shit' reveals, Hodor being the obvious one.   But what were the other 2?  Shireen burning has been mentioned,  but that was long foreshadowed in the books and not much of a surprise. 

Shireen's death has already been stated as the other one besides Hodor's name. 

What exactly GRRM said to D&D has never been revealed, though people have (as usual) leaped to silly false conclusions.

I'm not sure we'll be told the third one because surely at this point even D&D -- who are not paragons of logic or insight -- know that would be a spoiler for the books.

Though every time I think they've hit the lowest possible point in their history, they manage to dig the trench even lower.

 

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