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On Janos Slynt

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's own thoughts make it very clear that executing Janos is, while not completely unheard of, a comparatively harsh judgment - especially if you also keep in mind that he wanted to hang him originally, which is basically a humiliating way of death unfit for nobility.

Actually, no, Jon’s thoughts don’t lead us to the conclusion that executing Slynt is “too harsh”. That is your interpretation, I get it. But different people will interpret Jon’s thoughts differently. Jon is actually not too keen on killing people in general. As we see again and again. With Ygritte, Qhorin, the bloke in the abandoned village near Queenscrown... and even Mancelshirt, who he ends up ordering the crows to kill, but the man was as good as dead, and Jon only gives the order to spare the man the agonising pain of burning to death. And Jon’s reluctance to kill is the reason why he ponders his options. In the end, though, he reaches the conclusion that if Slynt is not executed, he will be a problem further down the road. Not only that, but more importantly, he knows he can’t let that level of disobedience and disrespect stand, or no one will ever again obey any command he gives if they don’t feel like obeying.  

And Slynt is not nobility, ffs. He’s an upjumped commoner who got a lordship in the most venal and despicable way possible, but in no way, shape or form is he nobility. LMAO.

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, if you check the context then various people with the authority to condemn Jon to death for his own offenses (Mormont two times in AGoT, Slynt & Thorne when they have reason to think he is an oathbreaker, etc.) then Jon is really pushing things pretty far, especially if you consider his non-existing stance towards Mance or his soft approach Marsh and the other officers who constantly oppose his policies.

This is preposterous. First, the offences are not anywhere near the same. And in the case of Jon’s first offence, Mormont himself explains: Jon left and came back. If he were to execute every man who left at night and came back before duty, he’d end up alone in CB. Attacking Thorne is also nowhere near disobeying a direct order and telling the LC to shove whatever up his arse in front of everyone. And w/ all those men together at CB, I bet there have been more than a few fist fights over the centuries and millennia, and yes, many would have been between men of different ranks. As to Slynt wanting to execute Jon, well, he would have if not for maester Aemon. So it’s not like Slynt didn’t want to do it, he just got cold feet because all his “important friends” - LOL - were too far away to intervene and he basically didn’t want to risk his own neck. And mind you, he gave up on hanging Jon, but found another way to have him killed by sending him on a suicide mission. Only Stannis got in the way. 

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Another problem with this is that Jon clearly showed his preference to punish harshly such people who were not only opposing him but also were confirmed enemies of House Stark. He didn't act as an impartial judge in this whole issue. This is significant because he doesn't use the same standards when people he finds sympathetic commit crimes (like Mance, say).

First I’ll go back to my first point: Jon is not fond of killing people. Especially if it’s a waste, like in Mance’s case. Even Stannis admits that Mance has knowledge they could use. And Mance is not disobeying Jon and telling him to go fuck himself and all that crap Slynt tried to pull. But there’s more in regards to Mance...   Mance’s fate was in Stannis’s hands, not Jon’s. And much later, when Jon learns of the switcheroo, he still can’t do anything about it. At least not until he speaks w/ Stannis himself. 

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that anyone was 'plotting' against Jon before he became Lord Commander is silly. He was a no-name bastard then, politically irrelevant, and suspected of treason for a very good reason. Aligning the Watch with the Lannisters is, in and of itself, no less unpleasant than aligning the Watch with Stannis, or to really plot and lie to make Jon Snow the Lord Commander, an office he never actually wanted.

It’s really simple. Tywin sees an opportunity of having a man he can bribe and boss around as LC of the NW. Mormont is dead, and Slynt is at CB. But Sam’s plotting works and he manages to get Jon elected. But Marsh & co know Tywin, who all the arseholes are sure is gonna come out on top, want Slynt as LC. It’s as easy as basic maths, 2 + 2 = 4, not 375,9. 

“Tyrion’s anger flashed. “Lord Janos is a hollow suit of armor who will sell himself to the highest bidder.”
I count that a point in his favor. Who is like to bid higher than us?” He turned to Pycelle. “Send a raven. Write that King Joffrey was deeply saddened to hear of Lord Commander Mormont’s death, but regrets that he can spare no men just now, whilst so many rebels and usurpers remain in the field. Suggest that matters might be quite different once the throne is secure . . . provided the king has full confidence in the leadership of the Watch. In closing, ask Marsh to pass along His Grace’s fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant, Lord Janos Slynt.”

 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what could have been done to stop it. Maybe if Jon had explained some of his decisions better? I agree about Marsh

Imo the only way to stop it was not letting the cowards know that Stannis allegedly was dead: not read the Pink Letter aloud for everyone.

There are a few important events leading up to the assassination, and it's got nothign to do with letting the wildlings through.

  • Alys Karstark arrives seeking help from Jon. Aside from her story about the marriage her great-uncle had planned for her, she informs Jon of the Karstark plan to betray Stannis. For her own reasons, she is convinced that Jon can never inform Stannis on time over the planned betrayal and thus that Stannis is a doomed man. Aside from Jon and Alys, Clydas was present. Even though it's quite possible that Clydas is a loyal man to Jon, he is also the guy who spread the word and news around CB. From the very beginning in aGoT we know that other people often learn the content and news of personal letters before the man the letter is addressed to. Maester Aemon would never do that. Clydas was always the man who read the letters aloud to blind Aemon. So, Clydas is a bit of a gossip. Since Clydas overheard Alys' opinion on the chances of Stannis, we thus have a man who tends to gossip, able to spread crucial strategic and political information to other men of CB, such as Bowen Marsh. And we know Bowen Marsh would be peeing his pants the moment he feared that Stannis might end up dead.
  • It's not just Alys. Cregan Karstark rode for CB to catch Alys. Jon intercepts him and throws him into an ice cell. Cregan is angry and likes to shout threats as well as his faeces. While in his ice cell, he's still given food,etc.  The man who carries the keys to open cell doors is Wick Whittlestick. So, plenty of opportunity there too for Bowen Marsh to learn of Stannis' alleged impending doom. Cregan is moved into a cell of the LC tower the day of the assassination attempt. And Wick is the first to strike at Jon. Coincidence? Not really.

There is circumstantial evidence via Ghost that Bowen Marsh did not yet plan to assassinate Jon during the day's events precluding the assassination. Yes, Ghost is at some point very hostile and aggressive to both guards standing watch as well as Jon. And while it's evident later with Bowen's passing that Ghost mistrusts him, he is nowhere near as aggressive to Marsh as he was to Jon even earlier that day.

  • Jon accounts Ghost's aggressive behavior to his guards and himself on smelling the boar, even though the boar is kept at the lichyard. Jon's account does not explain why the raven is alarmed and in all states. So, it's not the boar.
  • The reader assumes it's Ghost and the raven wanting to alert Jon of Marsh's intents. Except Ghost is displaying not as near as aggressive behaviour to Marsh hours later, after Jon met with them over the Hardhome issue. Nor does that explain why Ghost is calm hours later again while Jon discusses the Pink Letter with Tormund. It certainly does not explain why the raven is in a cheeky joking mood towards Tormund. So, nope, Ghost and the raven were not on high alert over Marsh whatsoever. They're not, because Marsh hadn't decided to kill Jon yet, not even after the Hardhome meeting.
  • The clue is in the raven's words earlier that day. He cries out "snow!" several times in high alarm. Of course we readers tend to associate the raven crying "snow" as meaning Jon's name. Except that would ignore the other type of snow.
    • Before Jon learns from his guards that Ghost is trying to bite a chunk out of them and thus enters the forge and his rooms, he stopped and watched the Wall. He noted that both the sky's color and the Wall meant snow packed skies. Which direction is Jon looking at that time? Well, that can only be north, since the Wall is the northern wall of CB.
    • When Jon escorts Marsh outside after the Hardhome meeting, it has started to snow. However, the snow is coming from the southern direction now, piling up against the ice cells of the Wall. It's this snowstorm that prompts Jon to command to move Cregan from his ice cell to the cell in the LC tower.
    • In other words: between Ghost and the raven being aggressive, extremely agitated and alarmed, crying about "snow" and Bowen passing Ghost, the wind has altered in direction. The snowclouds were driven across the Wall from the north to then blow in the other direction. If Ghost and the raven were at high alert when the wind blew from the north, but are calmer when the wind is blowing from the south, even if it sends snow piling high, then that's because they smelled something alarming coming from the north. They calmed down because whatever they smelled earlier was downwind later that day, when the wind blew south.
    • Imo there are Others and wights at the edge of the forest just north of CB by nightfall, waiting to strike and raise the dead in the lichyard and those who are dying in the mayhem of Wun Wun and the assassination.

If the Hardhome meeting had not yet persuaded Bowen Marsh to assassinate Jon, then what did? The only thing that could have been a trigger was the Pink Letter, which claimed that Stannis was dead.

 

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1. Jon's punishment for Slynt's disobedience of the order is "a day or ten" of imprisonment.

2. Jon doesn't consider harsher punishment until he realizes that Slynt is likely to lead desertions or rebellion. Desertion, especially leading a mass desertion, or rebellion are a life/death situation as the NW is barely holding it together to defend the ENTIRE KINGDOM from the Others and their zombie horde.

3. Jon had proof of rebellion plots on the part of Marsh, Thorne, Slynt, etc., when he directly overheard them speak of their loyalty to Tywin and to the Iron Throne when the NW is supposed to not be involved in politics. They were breaking some *major* NW rules. Big, big no no. Jon has known about the plot for some time, but didn't punish it until talk turned into action. AFFC Cersei IV: "The Night's Watch is sworn to take no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Pycelle reminded them. "For thousands of years the black brothers have upheld that tradition."

4. Slynt was nice enough to prove Jon right in front of everyone by trying to incite rebellion in favor of Tywin/the Iron Throne/the Others by calling Jon all sorts of things down to the implication that he was a demon, anti-whatever-passes-for-Christ-in-Westeros or something with that wacko mark of the beast crap.

 

 

ADWD Jon II

"You are refusing to obey my order?"

"You can stick your order up your bastard's arse," said Slynt, his jowls quivering.

Alliser Thorne smiled a thin smile, his black eyes fixed on Jon. At another table, Godry the Giantslayer began to laugh.

"As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—"

—and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

"—and hang him," Jon finished.

Janos Slynt's face went as white as milk. The spoon slipped from his fingers. Edd and Emmett crossed the room, their footsteps ringing on the stone floor. Bowen Marsh's mouth opened and closed though no words came out. Ser Alliser Thorne reached for his sword hilt. Go on, Jon thought. Longclaw was slung across his back. Show your steel. Give me cause to do the same.

Half the men in the hall were on their feet. Southron knights and men-at-arms, loyal to King Stannis or the red woman or both, and Sworn Brothers of the Night's Watch. Some had chosen Jon to be their lord commander. Others had cast their stones for Bowen Marsh, Ser Denys Mallister, Cotter Pyke … and some for Janos Slynt. Hundreds of them, as I recall. Jon wondered how many of those men were in the cellar right now. For a moment the world balanced on a sword's edge.

Alliser Thorne took his hand from his sword and stepped aside to let Edd Tollett pass.

Dolorous Edd took hold of Slynt by one arm, Iron Emmett by the other. Together they hauled him from the bench. "No," Lord Janos protested, flecks of porridge spraying from his lips. "No, unhand me. He's just a boy, a bastard. His father was a traitor. The mark of the beast is on him, that wolf of his … Let go of me! You will rue the day you laid hands on Janos Slynt. I have friends in King's Landing. I warn you—" He was still protesting as they half-marched, half-dragged him up the steps.

 

----------------

ASOS Jon XII

The sound of voices echoing off the vaulted ceiling brought him back to Castle Black. "I don't know," a man was saying, in a voice thick with doubts. "Maybe if I knew the man better . . . Lord Stannis didn't have much good to say of him, I'll tell you that."

"When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?" Ser Alliser's flinty voice was unmistakable. "If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He's already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater."

"Lord Tywin favors Slynt," said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. "I can show you his letter, Othell. 'Our faithful friend and servant,' he called him."

Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. "My lords," he said with cold courtesy.

"What are you doing here, bastard?" Thorne asked.

 

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

“What are you doing here, bastard?" Thorne asked.

And Jon replies:

“Bathing. But don’t let me spoil your plotting.” Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.

Another interesting point in the discussion on whether Slynt’s execution was too harsh/unfair (which it so very obviously wasn’t) is that both Dolorous Edd and Iron Emmett don’t bat an eyelash upon being given the order to hang Slynt. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's own thoughts make it very clear that executing Janos is, while not completely unheard of, a comparatively harsh judgment - especially if you also keep in mind that he wanted to hang him originally, which is basically a humiliating way of death unfit for nobility.

This entire paragraph is just wrong. First jon wanted to hang janos because that is the way grrm killed people in the NW. You just have to check for interviews of the time grrm read that pov chapter to know that he only changed the killing method because someone in the audience asked if jon wouldn t sentence people to die like ned did and brandish the sword himself.

Then jon's thoughts are about him deciding what his the best decision to make and being sure that killing janos is the right decision. The whole thought process jon concluding what is the right action to take.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, if you check the context then various people with the authority to condemn Jon to death for his own offenses (Mormont two times in AGoT, Slynt & Thorne when they have reason to think he is an oathbreaker, etc.) then Jon is really pushing things pretty far, especially if you consider his non-existing stance towards Mance or his soft approach Marsh and the other officers who constantly oppose his policies

Slynt and thorne wanted to kill him and put him on trial. They couldn t do more without a lord comander... And mormont didn t kill him because he came back. Jon gave janos several oportunities to follow his orders and he simply refused.

And you are sugesting that jon should kill marsh and company for not agreeing with him? That sounds like something aerys would do… IT is just insane.

And jon actually tought he killed mance… Or are you saying that jon should capture someone that is under mel's protection, expose stannis and kill mance? That course of action is also borderline insane. He would be making na enemy out of stannis that can destroy the NW and at the same time actively interfering in the politics of the 7 kingdoms. Wether mance deserved to die for his crimes if jon killed him at that time it would be the worst political decision ever...

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Another problem with this is that Jon clearly showed his preference to punish harshly such people who were not only opposing him but also were confirmed enemies of House Stark. He didn't act as an impartial judge in this whole issue. This is significant because he doesn't use the same standards when people he finds sympathetic commit crimes (like Mance, say).

Do you remember the text? Because jon actually thought he ordered mance's death… And is willing to accept all wildlings even if he hates some them… I would really like to see a quote that proved what you are saying…

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Compare that to Dany at least trying to treat the Meereenese slaves and former slavers equally once she has taken over Meereen.

There isn t a single instance when this happens. Her rulling in mereen were all against the slavers.

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54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's own thoughts make it very clear that executing Janos is, while not completely unheard of, a comparatively harsh judgment - especially if you also keep in mind that he wanted to hang him originally, which is basically a humiliating way of death unfit for nobility

What thoughts of his clearly show that he believes executing Janos a harsh punishment? 

I also don't see how hanging him being an unfit way for nobility to die has any bearing on Jon believing this to be too harsh of a punishment. 

There is no nobility in the NW. Janos lost that when he got sent to the wall. At any rate I don't think him hanging him vs beheading him had anything to do with humiliation. I think it had to do with Ned telling his kids that the person that gives the sentence should swing the sword. Either way though, in the end, he didn't hang him - whether it was for the reason I stated or because it's a humiliating way for nobility to die. If it was because of the latter isn't that further proof that Jon was being impartial & not doing whatever he wanted just because he didn't like the man? If that were the case wouldn't he have picked the most humiliating way for him to die? 

Also, I disagree that it is a comparatively harsh punishment as I don't see we have much to compare it to. To me, it makes sense that this type of insubordination would most often be punished by death, especially in a military like arrangement. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

mean, if you check the context then various people with the authority to condemn Jon to death for his own offenses (Mormont two times in AGoT, Slynt & Thorne when they have reason to think he is an oathbreaker, etc.) then Jon is really pushing things pretty far, especially if you consider his non-existing stance towards Mance or his soft approach Marsh and the other officers who constantly oppose his policies.

Not really because we know with Mormont (I can only think of one time - when he tried to desert so I'm speaking about then) that transgression is not typically punished by death. Had he continued on his desertion, yes but he did not. Thinking of deserting or leaving & coming back in the same night are not the same. Mormont says himself if he punished each of these transgressions he would have to punish everyone (or something to that affect) so had Mormont punished him, especially by executing him, it would have been Mormont that was taking it overboard & not being impartial. 

Janos & Thorne did want to execute Jon. We know he didn't desert & while Janos & Thorne don't know he didn't, they certainly don't know he did & insist upon not believing him even in the face of the truth. Why would it be ok for them to execute Jon for an offence they wrongly believe he committed but not for Jon, as LC, to execute Slynt for an offence he committed in front of everyone? 

If I'm understanding this passage right you are suggesting Jon's punishment was too harsh & as evidence you give the fact that Slynt & Thorne did not execute him? They tried, they wanted to & the reason they didn't had nothing to do with it being too harsh. Jon spent 5 days in an ice cell for a crime he did not commit at the word of Janos. He is not a just or wise mine so the last thing I would do if I were in a position of power is take my cues from the likes of him. 

Mance is another discussion entirely but since it seems inevitable that it will recur here I'll give you in a nut shell why I think it doesn't relate. 

First and foremost Jon was not LC when Mance committed his crime. That doesn't make his crime not punishable but to be completely comparable he would have had to desert & be caught under Jon's watch. 

The crimes were not the same. Mance's was desertion & Janos's was insubordination. Both apparently punishable by death but again to say Jon is being impartial by killing Janos & not Mance we would have to see how Jon punished other insubordination & other desertions. 

Mance's situation was a unique one in which Jon believed him to be dead only to find out he has been kept alive (presumably) by the only person that came to help the NW & whom Jon needs his continued support. Jon wanted Mance dead too. He emerges from the ice cells flexing his burnt hand specifically because he will need his hand limber to kill Mance. 

These things make the two situations relatively incomparable in my eyes but if your stance is that he should have killed Mance then I can't fathom what the issue would be with killing Janos. Maybe because you deem desertion to be a worse crime than insubordination? I wholly disagree. Unpunished insubordination in a military setting is detrimental to the entire army. One desertion is not. 

Janos didn't merely oppose his policies so again, that is not comparable to me. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Another problem with this is that Jon clearly showed his preference to punish harshly such people who were not only opposing him but also were confirmed enemies of House Stark. He didn't act as an impartial judge in this whole issue. This is significant because he doesn't use the same standards when people he finds sympathetic commit crimes (like Mance, say)

I disagree even where Mance was concerned & don't recall him feeling sympathetic towards Mance's crime either but in order for Jon to clearly show his preference to punish harshly enemies of house Stark it would have to be true for more than Mance right? So, who else, besides Janos, disobeyed a direct order from Jon, & did not receive the same punishment from him? 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that anyone was 'plotting' against Jon before he became Lord Commander is silly. He was a no-name bastard then, politically irrelevant, and suspected of treason for a very good reason. Aligning the Watch with the Lannisters is, in and of itself, no less unpleasant than aligning the Watch with Stannis, or to really plot and lie to make Jon Snow the Lord Commander, an office he never actually wanted

I'll look for the quotes but didn't one of the Lannisters suggest (Cersei maybe?) That they would like for Janos & CO to take Jon out while at the wall? Sounds like a plot to me. 

They were plotting to align themselves with the Lannisters & while in & of itself it causes no great harm & is no different than aligning with Stannis to rid the realm of the greater good this isn't what the Lannisters wanted, nor were they offering help in return. They wanted their man in control so they essentially had control of the NW. 

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And Jon replies:

“Bathing. But don’t let me spoil your plotting.” Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.

Another interesting point in the discussion on whether Slynt’s execution was too harsh/unfair (which it so very obviously wasn’t) is that both Dolorous Edd and Iron Emmett don’t bat an eyelash upon being given the order to hang Slynt. 

Right & really no one outside of Janos's fellow plotters think it's unreasonable at all. TBH I've never heard anyone argue it was unjust outside of this forum. It's an enigma to me why a rotten, no good, lying, scheming, power hungry, arsehole of a man, draws sympathy from anyone who has read these books. Clearly the author wrote Jon to be a fair, honest, sometimes making mistakes, character & Janos the opposite yet we get people condemning Jon & condoning Janos. I don't get it. 

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8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'll look for the quotes but didn't one of the Lannisters suggest (Cersei maybe?)

Here it is:

AFfC, Cersei IV

“Qyburn leaned forward with a smile. “The Night’s Watch defends us all from snarks and grumkins. My lords, I say that we must help the brave black brothers.”
Cersei gave him a sharp look. “What are you saying?”
“This,” Qyburn said. “For years now, the Night’s Watch has begged for men. Lord Stannis has answered their plea. Can King Tommen do less? His Grace should send the Wall a hundred men. To take the black, ostensibly, but in truth . . .”
“. . . to remove Jon Snow from the command,” Cersei finished, delighted. I knew I was right to want him on my council. “That is just what we shall do.” She laughed. If this bastard boy is truly his father’s son, he will not suspect a thing. Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs.”

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here it is:

AFfC, Cersei IV

“Qyburn leaned forward with a smile. “The Night’s Watch defends us all from snarks and grumkins. My lords, I say that we must help the brave black brothers.”
Cersei gave him a sharp look. “What are you saying?”
“This,” Qyburn said. “For years now, the Night’s Watch has begged for men. Lord Stannis has answered their plea. Can King Tommen do less? His Grace should send the Wall a hundred men. To take the black, ostensibly, but in truth . . .”
“. . . to remove Jon Snow from the command,” Cersei finished, delighted. I knew I was right to want him on my council. “That is just what we shall do.” She laughed. If this bastard boy is truly his father’s son, he will not suspect a thing. Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs.”

I think that was a plot that grrm forgot with the division of dance and feast. There is no indication in dance that the crown sent a group of men to the NW. Hell, from some other discussion I think there were interesting prisoners from the riverlands that also haven t arrived...

Not even stannis dragonglass arrived yet! Will it ever get north or it is travelling with robb's will?

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right & really no one outside of Janos's fellow plotters think it's unreasonable at all. TBH I've never heard anyone argue it was unjust outside of this forum. It's an enigma to me why a rotten, no good, lying, scheming, power hungry, arsehole of a man, draws sympathy from anyone who has read these books. Clearly the author wrote Jon to be a fair, honest, sometimes making mistakes, character & Janos the opposite yet we get people condemning Jon & condoning Janos. I don't get it. 

Yeah, it’s baffling. And a wee bit funny, too... I mean, to prefer to come across as a Slynt (or Ramsay or Walder Frey for that matter) fangirl/fanboy and someone who is not understanding the text at all just coz, “booooo I hate Jon Snow”. :lol: To each their own, I suppose...

And I’ll add that, while Martin deals mostly w/ grey characters, because, you know, most people are not wholly good or wholly evil, he also acknowledges that there are exceptions. There are (very few, thank the Old Gods) individuals who are wholly evil and cruel and despicable, like Ramsay. Slynt is clearly portrayed as a villain and a nasty PoS. Again, to each their own...

 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, it’s baffling. And a wee bit funny, too... I mean, to prefer to come across as a Slynt (or Ramsay or Walder Frey for that matter) fangirl/fanboy and someone who is not understanding the text at all just coz, “booooo I hate Jon Snow”. :lol: To each their own, I suppose...

And I’ll add that, while Martin deals mostly w/ grey characters, because, you know, most people are not wholly good or wholly evil, he also acknowledges that there are exceptions. There are (very few, thank the Old Gods) individuals who are wholly evil and cruel and despicable, like Ramsay. Slynt is clearly portrayed as a villain and a nasty PoS. Again, to each their own...

 

Right! I take no issue with a difference of opinion I just can't understand why people want to hang their hats on the likes of Janos & Ramsay. 

The most frustrating thing is not for people to disagree but for people to state something as fact when the text is clear & states otherwise. 

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37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Imo the only way to stop it was not letting the cowards know that Stannis allegedly was dead: not read the Pink Letter aloud for everyone.

There are a few important events leading up to the assassination, and it's got nothign to do with letting the wildlings through.

  • Alys Karstark arrives seeking help from Jon. Aside from her story about the marriage her great-uncle had planned for her, she informs Jon of the Karstark plan to betray Stannis. For her own reasons, she is convinced that Jon can never inform Stannis on time over the planned betrayal and thus that Stannis is a doomed man. Aside from Jon and Alys, Clydas was present. Even though it's quite possible that Clydas is a loyal man to Jon, he is also the guy who spread the word and news around CB. From the very beginning in aGoT we know that other people often learn the content and news of personal letters before the man the letter is addressed to. Maester Aemon would never do that. Clydas was always the man who read the letters aloud to blind Aemon. So, Clydas is a bit of a gossip. Since Clydas overheard Alys' opinion on the chances of Stannis, we thus have a man who tends to gossip, able to spread crucial strategic and political information to other men of CB, such as Bowen Marsh. And we know Bowen Marsh would be peeing his pants the moment he feared that Stannis might end up dead.
  • It's not just Alys. Cregan Karstark rode for CB to catch Alys. Jon intercepts him and throws him into an ice cell. Cregan is angry and likes to shout threats as well as his faeces. While in his ice cell, he's still given food,etc.  The man who carries the keys to open cell doors is Wick Whittlestick. So, plenty of opportunity there too for Bowen Marsh to learn of Stannis' alleged impending doom. Cregan is moved into a cell of the LC tower the day of the assassination attempt. And Wick is the first to strike at Jon. Coincidence? Not really.

There is circumstantial evidence via Ghost that Bowen Marsh did not yet plan to assassinate Jon during the day's events precluding the assassination. Yes, Ghost is at some point very hostile and aggressive to both guards standing watch as well as Jon. And while it's evident later with Bowen's passing that Ghost mistrusts him, he is nowhere near as aggressive to Marsh as he was to Jon even earlier that day.

  • Jon accounts Ghost's aggressive behavior to his guards and himself on smelling the boar, even though the boar is kept at the lichyard. Jon's account does not explain why the raven is alarmed and in all states. So, it's not the boar.
  • The reader assumes it's Ghost and the raven wanting to alert Jon of Marsh's intents. Except Ghost is displaying not as near as aggressive behaviour to Marsh hours later, after Jon met with them over the Hardhome issue. Nor does that explain why Ghost is calm hours later again while Jon discusses the Pink Letter with Tormund. It certainly does not explain why the raven is in a cheeky joking mood towards Tormund. So, nope, Ghost and the raven were not on high alert over Marsh whatsoever. They're not, because Marsh hadn't decided to kill Jon yet, not even after the Hardhome meeting.
  • The clue is in the raven's words earlier that day. He cries out "snow!" several times in high alarm. Of course we readers tend to associate the raven crying "snow" as meaning Jon's name. Except that would ignore the other type of snow.
    • Before Jon learns from his guards that Ghost is trying to bite a chunk out of them and thus enters the forge and his rooms, he stopped and watched the Wall. He noted that both the sky's color and the Wall meant snow packed skies. Which direction is Jon looking at that time? Well, that can only be north, since the Wall is the northern wall of CB.
    • When Jon escorts Marsh outside after the Hardhome meeting, it has started to snow. However, the snow is coming from the southern direction now, piling up against the ice cells of the Wall. It's this snowstorm that prompts Jon to command to move Cregan from his ice cell to the cell in the LC tower.
    • In other words: between Ghost and the raven being aggressive, extremely agitated and alarmed, crying about "snow" and Bowen passing Ghost, the wind has altered in direction. The snowclouds were driven across the Wall from the north to then blow in the other direction. If Ghost and the raven were at high alert when the wind blew from the north, but are calmer when the wind is blowing from the south, even if it sends snow piling high, then that's because they smelled something alarming coming from the north. They calmed down because whatever they smelled earlier was downwind later that day, when the wind blew south.
    • Imo there are Others and wights at the edge of the forest just north of CB by nightfall, waiting to strike and raise the dead in the lichyard and those who are dying in the mayhem of Wun Wun and the assassination.

If the Hardhome meeting had not yet persuaded Bowen Marsh to assassinate Jon, then what did? The only thing that could have been a trigger was the Pink Letter, which claimed that Stannis was dead.

 

This is quite interesting & not something I've seen presented before. 

I assumed Ghosts behavior was in reaction to Marsh's plans as well. 

 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Here it is:

AFfC, Cersei IV

“Qyburn leaned forward with a smile. “The Night’s Watch defends us all from snarks and grumkins. My lords, I say that we must help the brave black brothers.”
Cersei gave him a sharp look. “What are you saying?”
“This,” Qyburn said. “For years now, the Night’s Watch has begged for men. Lord Stannis has answered their plea. Can King Tommen do less? His Grace should send the Wall a hundred men. To take the black, ostensibly, but in truth . . .”
“. . . to remove Jon Snow from the command,” Cersei finished, delighted. I knew I was right to want him on my council. “That is just what we shall do.” She laughed. If this bastard boy is truly his father’s son, he will not suspect a thing. Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs.”

Earlier in this conversation they go on about how they're upset that Jon has allied with Stannis to rationalize moving against Stannis and Jon, but there's more going on here. Cersei just did a Stark rant that left the them speechless. She also compares Jon who looks just like Ned to Robert's bastards whom she killed because they were a threat to her strongly implying that Cersei is more than a little motivated by Jon's resemblance to Ned and what that might mean to the North.

But here they admit they know better about Jon's motives for working with Stannis to whom the North is still refusing to swear: they've been desperate for men for years and the need has escalated. Implied here is that they know that if Tommen sent men, Jon would accept them and work with them, too.

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5 minutes ago, divica said:

I think that was a plot that grrm forgot with the division of dance and feast. There is no indication in dance that the crown sent a group of men to the NW. Hell, from some other discussion I think there were interesting prisoners from the riverlands that also haven t arrived...

Not even stannis dragonglass arrived yet! Will it ever get north or it is travelling with robb's will?

Osney Kettleblack was imprisoned by the Faith before he was sent to CB. And Desmond Grell and Robin Ryger decide to take the black, but we haven’t heard anymore on either one since Feast, I think. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right! I take no issue with a difference of opinion I just can't understand why people want to hang their hats on the likes of Janos & Ramsay. 

The most frustrating thing is not for people to disagree but for people to state something as fact when the text is clear & states otherwise. 

What I don t understand is why people don t focus on jon's actually debatable decisions. Like how legal were jon's actions in the entire alys debacle, informing stannis and keeping the other karstark indefinetly imprisoned without informing anyone? I think here it makes sense for people to have diferent opinions...

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9 minutes ago, divica said:

What I don t understand is why people don t focus on jon's actually debatable decisions. Like how legal were jon's actions in the entire alys debacle, informing stannis and keeping the other karstark indefinetly imprisoned without informing anyone? I think here it makes sense for people to have diferent opinions...

Sure. In all fairness it always makes sense for people to have different opinions but when a situation is very nearly black & white, it is typically only the extremists who argue the black side. In the aSoIaF fan base, it's a whole other story lol

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Osney Kettleblack was imprisoned by the Faith before he was sent to CB. And Desmond Grell and Robin Ryger decide to take the black, but we haven’t heard anymore on either one since Feast, I think. 

I agree, And if they were somehow involved in jon's stabing grrm would have given us some clue about their presence in CB.

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Imo the only way to stop it was not letting the cowards know that Stannis allegedly was dead: not read the Pink Letter aloud for everyone.

The problem I see here is that I don t think they attacked jon because stannis is dead. After hearing the pink letter they must know how impossible it is to answer all of ramsay's demands and it is debatable if the whole NW agrees with their decision to stab jon… 

To me the attack stinks of desperation of men that don t want to die and think that as long as jon is in comand they are doomed. I doubt they actually have a plan of action about what to do after killing jon because they know how hard it is to get to stannis people, val without being murdered by the wildlings and that farya isn t there. I bet marsh just wants to sit in CB and let the wildlings, ramsay and stannis people fight between them without involving him.

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Osney Kettleblack was imprisoned by the Faith before he was sent to CB. And Desmond Grell and Robin Ryger decide to take the black, but we haven’t heard anymore on either one since Feast, I think. 

The plans were either put on halt while Cersei was in a cell. Or Kevan sent men, excluding Kettleback, to Eastwatch already according to the plan, but we have no confirmation of it, since between Cersei getting arrested (at the end of aFfC) and the epilogue of aDwD we haven't been privy to any small council anymore.

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

The problem I see here is that I don t think they attacked jon because stannis is dead. After hearing the pink letter they must know how impossible it is to answer all of ramsay's demands and it is debatable if the whole NW agrees with their decision to stab jon… 

To me the attack stinks of desperation of men that don t want to die and think that as long as jon is in comand they are doomed. I doubt they actually have a plan of action about what to do after killing jon because they know how hard it is to get to stannis people, val without being murdered by the wildlings and that farya isn t there. I bet marsh just wants to sit in CB and let the wildlings, ramsay and stannis people fight between them without involving him.

Marsh & co have been plotting since before Jon was elected LC. Back then, they wanted to elect Slynt to please Tywin, b/c Slynt is in Tywin’s pocket and they’re all sure Tywin “will win in the end”. But then Sam meddles, and Jon is elected. Slynt is executed... Let’s keep in mind that Marsh is not only a racist xenophobe, he’s also a coward. At this point, they know Tywin is dead, but the King is Tywin’s grandson, and Tywin’s daughter is the regent. In other words, the IT is still in the hands of the Lannisters. Then Jon starts making decisions Marsh & co don’t agree with at all. And on it goes. The PL brings everything to a head, and Marsh decides to act immediately, even if the timing is off. I mean, that is not the moment they had planned on doing it, but they decide to act before Ramsay shows up. Marsh and his cronies know they can’t meet all the demands Ramsay is making. But if they can prove their loyalty to the IT by giving Jon’s head to Ramsay, maybe they can keep their worthless hides. After all, Roose Bolton was appointed Warden of the North by the Crown, and his now legitimate son has just married Arya Stark (as far as they know) and is “Lord of Winterfell”. In Marsh’s myopic view, it’s a win-win: they get rid of the LC who is bringing changes they don’t like or approve, and they get to stay cozy w/ the Boltons and the IT/ Lannisters. 

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Marsh & co have been plotting since before Jon was elected LC. Back then, they wanted to elect Slynt to please Tywin, b/c Slynt is in Tywin’s pocket and they’re all sure Tywin “will win in the end”. But then Sam meddles, and Jon is elected. Slynt is executed... Let’s keep in mind that Marsh is not only a racist xenophobe, he’s also a coward. At this point, they know Tywin is dead, but the King is Tywin’s grandson, and Tywin’s daughter is the regent. In other words, the IT is still in the hands of the Lannisters. Then Jon starts making decisions Marsh & co don’t agree with at all. And on it goes. The PL brings everything to a head, and Marsh decides to act immediately, even if the timing is off. I mean, that is not the moment they had planned on doing it, but they decide to act before Ramsay shows up. Marsh and his cronies know they can’t meet all the demands Ramsay is making. But if they can prove their loyalty to the IT by giving Jon’s head to Ramsay, maybe they can keep their worthless hides. After all, Roose Bolton was appointed Warden of the North by the Crown, and his now legitimate son has just married Arya Stark (as far as they know) and is “Lord of Winterfell”. In Marsh’s myopic view, it’s a win-win: they get rid of the LC who is bringing changes they don’t like or approve, and they get to stay cozy w/ the Boltons and the IT/ Lannisters. 

But if it was something planned they would need to know how the rest of the NW would react. How can they be sure the people in CB won t just name them traitors and hang them? That the wildlings won t try and take over the resources of the NW so that they can help the people in hardhome? OR even help the weeper take the bridge of skulls?

I can t see a logical reason for them to act they way the did… It only makes sense for me if it is an emotional reaction without much thought… No matter whatever agreement they might have with the lannisters or boltons what plans do they have for their imediate survival?

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