Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, corbon said:

1. She is emotionally not ready, a child, but in his culture she is also a woman flowered.
2. Yes. And the alternatives are crueler.
3. Its not what he wants either. But for both of them, essentially, its their job. This is the consequence of their privileged, wealthy, powerful lives. Dynastic duties. Its worse for her of course, on multiple layers.

1. she had her period 5 minutes before their marriage and normally girls don't get married off that early with consummation right away, except if you are Ramsey Bolton - even in the ASOIAF world. Ned thought Sansa was to young for even an engagement at 11, Lysa tells her she is to young for children “A child?” said Sansa, uncertainly. Lysa waved a hand negligently. “Not for many years. You are too young to be a mother. Even LF tells her, when she is older men will drown in her eyes. Even the Hound acknowledges she is still "a stupid little bird" and Tyrion himself say and thinks repeatedly she is a child and she is too young. So they are really pushing the limits here. Tyrion looks at her naked body and calls her a child.

2. How so? the other alternative was Lancel and he was bedridden, there was no chance he would have tried to consummate and maybe he would have been thankful to Sansa for helping him the night of the BotB. Also just because an alternative could be possibly crueler doesn't make a situation not cruel. And Tyrion acknowledges himself, that marring him specifically would be cruel to her.

3. How is it her job or duty to help or do anything for the family, that has murdered her family and has kept her prisoner for over a year and during that time has severely abused and threatened her. If anything it was her duty to work against this family, because they are her family's enemies and hers as well.

38 minutes ago, corbon said:

4. He stops though, before it gets serious. Despite all the cultural and personal imperatives, all the responsibilities, he stops.

Serious? He has already molested her and she is 12. You said before, that women might have problems empathizing with Tyrion. I have problems empathizing with the adult in this situation, the one with all of the power, while the one, who is a child and who doesn't want it, has no power AT ALL. Has nothing to do with gender, same thing, if the gender was reversed. I think adults have problems empathizing with a 12 year old here. This is already pretty bad what happened to her here, it's serious and it is sexual assault. This would be bad for a lot of adults, but it's infinitely worse for a child. I don't think any woman would be grateful, that he just touched her naked breast, exposed himself to her and looked at her naked body. You get serious PTSD from that stuff. Now think how this would be for a child+ all the fear to be raped.

[corbon]

9 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think..

Thank you.
Its a difficult and risky thing to discuss this as a male with several females arguing the other side.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think the idea was that Tyrion and Sansa were doing what was expected of them. You get married, you consummate. Yes, he wants her and yes he is aroused, but he also stops and decides that he's not going to have sex with her and his father can bitch about it as much as he wants. He goes back to Shae instead, he tries to protect Sansa, he tries to befriend her. He stops sleeping naked. So on some level he does try to be respectful toward her. Or as respectful as Tyrion can be toward someone. 

Sansa had her period. The seamstress making her wedding dress tells her that her bosom will be as lovely as the queen's and that she shouldn't hide it.

Sansa thinks about how she couldn't lace her jerkin all the way to the top and how the stableboy was gaping at her when he helped her to her saddle and she also thinks how she sometimes catches men looking at her chest.

Sansa is a child-woman and clearly a beautiful one. And the men around her will keep on perving. Marillion tried to rape her and Littlefinger wants kisses and wants her. He's even older than Tyrion.

This is a universe that is really unkind to women. Dany was 13, married to a man 17 years older than her who didn't care how old she was and had sex with her whenever he wanted so much so that she thought about killing herself. And Jeyne Poole was 13 and married off to Ramsay who is an animal. And if that had really been Arya instead, she would have been even younger than that. 

What we consider pedophilia is not that in Westeros. We're talking about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, but Lysa might have been as young as 14 when she was married off to Jon Arryn, who was old enough to be her grandfather. He did not hesitate to consummate his marriage since she thought she was pregnant at the same time as Catelyn. The story is littered with examples.

Women are good for being sold into marriage, having children, probably dying while having said children. It makes me appreciate the female characters even more for trying to rise above that and be more than what society Westeros for them.

Right, I get in universe it's seen differently but we aren't in universe & we know what is done to women then is despicable. We also know Sansa likely suffered a lot of emotional trauma for what happened. I think it's worth discussing in & out of universe & IRL, today, it's a disgusting, vile act. 

I give some liberties to Tyrion because he is living in universe but there are always people, during any age & time that go against the grain regardless of what society tells them & I desperately wanted this to be Tyrion. 

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I give some liberties to Tyrion because he is living in universe but there are always people, during any age & time that go against the grain regardless of what society tells them & I desperately wanted this to be Tyrion. 

What I see is that he did go against the grain.
It wasn't easy, and he didn't magically start as a cultural-breaking-superhero, but he got there.

And then went to very bad place later, but thats later.

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

The alternative was worse. 
He initially refused, IIRC. But he realised that if he didn't do it his father would just assign another Lannister, which would be no better for her and probably worse, as at least he actually cared about her.

already gave my response to this. And I stand by my opinion, that what he did does not show he cares for her.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

The credit isn't for 'not-raping'. The credit is for fighting against all the cultural and political imperatives that said he should, he must, rape her. For winning that fight, in the end.

it's just to little to late for me. Damage is already done. For me sexual assault is very serious especially of a child (not implying that it's not for you- before you feel personally attacked again) All the Stark men (including Jon) wouldn't have even wed a 12 year old forced child-bride, same for Sam, Davos let alone molested her.

I also find it weird, that he apparently had to fight so hard. knowing she is a child, this is cruel to her, and that she didn't want any of this should have been enough. Don't know how your empathy can allow you under those circumstances to molest a child.

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

They aren't excuses. They are recognition that he did pretty well, in this situation at least, even if not perfectly. 
They are recognition that Tyrion is human too, not juts Sansa.

They are recognition that its a very very complicated and difficult situation.

I just don't understand how you can describe molesting a child "as doing well". Especially when Tyrion demonstrates to us himself, that he at least on an intellectual level understands, how he will cause her suffering. 

[Nagini's Neville]

59 minutes ago, corbon said:

I do not accept your non-apology. In this context, even the way you phrased it as a question, it was nothing less than a despicable attempt to shut me down by painting me as a horrible person.
Mostly, that exact sort of response would be ok. probably I've used it myself at times. Given the very, very, dangerous ground that we are discussing here, and given the very careful way I repeatedly explained that I was not excusing him and didn't find his actions ideal etc etc, what you did was very not ok. Whether you meant it 'that way' or not. Thats what it was.

Nah, this is just how you interpreted it. you are using straw- man against me now. I was just asking a question to get what you were trying to say, what would be "okay" for a character in universe, not a real life situation. And it is fine, if you don't accept my apology, because I didn't apologize. I understand, that this is problematic territory, therefore I was not trying to discredit you this way. If my direct way of phrasing it, came across that way for you, I'm telling you now this wasn't my intention. If I say something you didn't this solely happens, because I didn't get it. I don't want to "win this fight" (even though I have a very strong opinion here) and also don't try to paint you as a "whatever person" to discredit you. I also don't think, that your opinion about a fictional world, characters and situation has anything to do with you as a person. 

Personally however I think through your arguments you are excusing him, since you repeatedly say he should get credit for certain behavior. And I disagree. 

But to get back to the question, that I now have to phrase more carefully: You say Tyrion was just doing his job and is therefore less to blame for his actions, is this correct? If not why even mention it?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, corbon said:

Sansa is well developed for a 12 year old. By no means fully developed.
And this is a culture that values youth and virginity. Its her very near-childhood status that makes her more desire-able in such a culture. A man who sleeps with a virgin knows that her children are his, and thats the only way he has of knowing that. Thats really the underling reason for most such patriarchal cultures. Women at east know their kids are their own. Men don't, unless they have some way of limiting access. Its not right, I'm not advocating it its just what it is.

I understand you are not advocating it & I do understand the cultural difference. 

For me 2 things come into play here: the fact that he admits to himself & recognizes she is a child lets me know he has the intelligence & capability to understand there is something, a least a little, wrong with the cultural norms. For him to go on to be aroused by her makes me feel ill.

And while I completely understand that not all people have the strength that it takes to fight against cultural & societal norms, I really, really, wanted Tyrion to be one of them that did. So it was a big let down that he groped her. 

Secondly, we know these are cultural norms but we also know they are wrong & harmful to practice. Even though the rest of Westeros views it one way, I still view it as pedophilia because ultimately it is. 

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

think you are wrong. A well developed naked 12 year old in a sexually provocative situation will cause some arousal in most younger men. We get better trained over time, and there are very few sexually provocative situations remaining with girls that young in our society anyway, but the genetic imperative is to spread that seed in every fertile option, in order to increase the chance of passing on the genes

Fair enough, I'm not a male so I can't speak with any certainty here. I am aware that, especially, for teenage boys, an erection will come against their will or for no apparent reason at all sometimes. 

As you said though, as they become men this seems to happen less. I attribute that to the fact that they are older, no longer sexually attracted to young girls, & have better control but I can agree that it could be what you said. My view on the matter is purely assumption. 

21 minutes ago, corbon said:

seems to me that you are blaming him for wanting good things

No, I'm blaming him for who he wants them with. 

To be fair though I do blame him more than I may blame another character, Khal Drogo, for example because he seems to recognize the wrongness, because he is intelligent, because I like his character so much, & because I don't want to attribute these things to him. 

So, in a sense, I am blaming him for being "better" than the others. 

23 minutes ago, corbon said:

don't think its particularly relevant that of the two of them he has more power than her. I think it relevant that neither of them have a great deal of choice here and its how they both make the best of the situation that matters. Tyrion actually tries to to that. Sansa doesn't, at all, and you can't blame her for that either

There were other choices though. He could have chose not to go through with it prior to groping her. He could have faked the consummation. 

I'm not blind to the fact that Tyrion has to get very drunk & is very bothered by the whole thing. It just seems at odds for him to then touch her. I said upthread, I think GRRM made a mistake adding that part into the story because to me it's out of character for Tyrion. 

25 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yes, i'm kinda speaking to doth of you here, and anyone else following the conversation

Yeah, I know, I was just clarifying what was meant when I admitted possibly I was blind to him but that I was trying. 

27 minutes ago, corbon said:

See my answer to NN about this, at the end. I think you ladies are operating mentally in an inappropriate (and ridiculous - one of the prime examples of the worst aspects of modern feminist thought) modern mindset

I've been called a lot of things, but never a feminist 

I think it's a little harsh to say this mindset (not the modern day feminism, I think we would probably agree there - but the mindset that Tyrion molested Sansa) is ridiculous. She was touched by a man against her will, even if it fell in line with the cultural norms. She is clearly upset by it. 

Is it possible that you don't view this in a similar manner to us because you aren't a woman? I'm not assuming, I'm asking. Or maybe a better question would be if you had ever experienced any form of sexual assault or molestation? You don't have to answer that, of course, my point is that as someone who has experienced it maybe my view on the whole thing is molded by my life experiences, as well as yours may be. 

I do think it's worth discussing things as to how they pertain in universe vs IRL today though. In universe he did absolutely nothing wrong. By todays standards he did. I think we can both agree on that. The disagreement comes in when we are deciding if we are going to judge Tyrion by what we know today to be right & ok or by what they thought then to be right & ok. 

35 minutes ago, corbon said:

see that one touch as a tentative step to move forward that stops immediately when the reception is negative even though the answers have all been positive until now. She said the words, she disrobed into his marriage bed, they are both naked. Somebody has to make the next move. Its not a molestation to do so, it would be a molestation to continue given her response - the natural negative overwhelming the conscious positive

But it is ultimately wrong. It's wrong to force marriages, it's wrong to expect someone to consummate a forced marriage & it's wrong to touch a child. I understand they thought differently but they are wrong. The damage that would have been done to Sansa, if she were a real person, would be astronomical & it's very hard for me to ignore that. Whether or not Tyrion knew or understood the magnitude of what he was doing to her emotionally & physically doesn't do much to alleviate Sansas trauma. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

31 minutes ago, corbon said:

What I see is that he did go against the grain.
It wasn't easy, and he didn't magically start as a cultural-breaking-superhero, but he got there.

And then went to very bad place later, but thats later.

He did in the end. That makes him unique & strong in a way that Set Gregor could never be. But the good doesn't wash out the bad right? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

44 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thank you.
Its a difficult and risky thing to discuss this as a male with several females arguing the other side.

The last thing I want is for you to not feel as if you can discuss things with me. 

I don't think you are some rapist apologist or that you are condoning any harmful act against children nor would I ever imply that. I want to have a good, respectful, discussion especially if we disagree. We cannot ever learn from each other if we will not listen to each other. 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, I get in universe it's seen differently but we aren't in universe & we know what is done to women then is despicable. We also know Sansa likely suffered a lot of emotional trauma for what happened. I think it's worth discussing in & out of universe & IRL, today, it's a disgusting, vile act. 

I'm not disagreeing that Sansa suffered a lot of emotional trauma since her father died. The women have all suffered some degree of emotional trauma.

For me comparing a novel with real life is just falling down the rabbit hole. But to each their own.

The story tells me that a girl who is flowered is fit to be wedded and bedded, and that's what I'm going to go with, even though, yes, I know, no 12 year old should ever ever be married off to anyone.

A girl that age should be having fun with her friends and writing Sansa + Loras = Love & marriage inside a heart because she had a crush on him. She shouldn't be preoccupied with taking off her clothes for the husband she was forced to marry because that's what she has to do.

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thank you.
Its a difficult and risky thing to discuss this as a male with several females arguing the other side.

I get where you're coming from. I thought that scene as described by Sansa was pretty gross, but I tend to stick with what the Westerosi society is. If I didn't, then I wouldn't have bothered with the books in the first place. 

[Nagini's Neville]

40 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, I get in universe it's seen differently but we aren't in universe & we know what is done to women then is despicable. We also know Sansa likely suffered a lot of emotional trauma for what happened. I think it's worth discussing in & out of universe & IRL, today, it's a disgusting, vile act. 

I give some liberties to Tyrion because he is living in universe but there are always people, during any age & time that go against the grain regardless of what society tells them & I desperately wanted this to be Tyrion. 

IMO enough men wouldn't have done what Tyrion did. For sure Ned, Robb, Jon, Davos, Sam.. And I also don't see at all, that it was normal to consummate the marriage so young within universe, except for Ramsey Bolton. Ned thought Sansa was to young at 11 to even be engaged, Lysa Tully tells her she will be to young for children for years, LF say men will drown in her eyes, when she is older.

I don't think it is coincidence, that Tyrion thinks of Sansa as a child still.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For me comparing a novel with real life is just falling down the rabbit hole. But to each their own

Well, I'm not comparing dragons to real life, this is a realistic situation. It doesn't make me enjoy the novels any less but if it would you, I understand why you don't do it. 

13 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The story tells me that a girl who is flowered is fit to be wedded and bedded, and that's what I'm going to go with, even though, yes, I know, no 12 year old should ever ever be married off to anyone

Sure, but it isn't just the story that tells us that. It's real life, medieval societies felt the same way so there is certainly a connection to real life. Particularly to how societies views on the matter have changed. 

15 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

girl that age should be having fun with her friends and writing Sansa + Loras = Love & marriage inside a heart because she had a crush on him. She shouldn't be preoccupied with taking off her clothes for the husband she was forced to marry because that's what she has to do.

Yeah, but more than that Tyrion could have acted within his societal norms & still not molested her. He was warring against what he knew to he right & what was best for his family. 

15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO enough men wouldn't have done what Tyrion did. For sure Ned, Robb, Jon, Davos, Sam.. And I also don't see at all, that it was normal to consummate the marriage so young within universe, except for Ramsey Bolton. Ned thought Sansa was to young at 11 to even be engaged, Lysa Tully tells her she will be to young for children for years, LF say men will drown in her eyes, when she is older.

I don't think it is coincidence, that Tyrion thinks of Sansa as a child still.

Absolutely. There are plenty who wouldn't have. 

To be fair though, none of them have been put in the situation Tyrion was in. He is in a position where he cannot really contribute to furthering his families name in any meaningful way on several fronts. His father is a dick & refuses to see him as his rightful heir even though he is, he is always going to have a hard time finding a marriage, even one without political gain, because he is a dwarf. He was commanded to take this opportunity to help his family in a very large way & commanded to consummate the marriage. He was able to refuse but he is passing up an opportunity that is not likely to present itself again. 

I'm not trying to justify anything he did, only saying put in the same position some of the others may have done the same. 

[corbon]

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Or maybe a better question would be if you had ever experienced any form of sexual assault or molestation? You don't have to answer that, of course, my point is that as someone who has experienced it maybe my view on the whole thing is molded by my life experiences, as well as yours may be. 

We all are. And some are moulded more strongly than others too. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and strengths that are weaknesses. Sorry, that sounds embarrassingly zen, but I hope you understand what I mean.

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I do think it's worth discussing things as to how they pertain in universe vs IRL today though. In universe he did absolutely nothing wrong. By todays standards he did. I think we can both agree on that. The disagreement comes in when we are deciding if we are going to judge Tyrion by what we know today to be right & ok or by what they thought then to be right & ok. 

I think we need to take care not to be so arrogant as to assume that we know better in all situations.
I think in particular, the dynastic context and political situation are highly relevant.

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But it is ultimately wrong. It's wrong to force marriages, it's wrong to expect someone to consummate a forced marriage & it's wrong to touch a child. I understand they thought differently but they are wrong. The damage that would have been done to Sansa, if she were a real person, would be astronomical & it's very hard for me to ignore that. Whether or not Tyrion knew or understood the magnitude of what he was doing to her emotionally & physically doesn't do much to alleviate Sansas trauma. 

well crap, I just lost several paragraphs below this, for the third time. Its not all I want to ay, but its all I have time for now.

sigh, and apparently a bunch of other replies higher up in this post too.
I give up. Forum/typing/keyboard bugs. Sorry.
 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

He is being forced to do this. He argued every way he could think of against it in the small council, and in the end his father said if Tyrion didn't take her, then he'd give her to Lancel or some other Lannister.

therefore he was not truly forced to do it. He could have gotten out of it, if he truly wanted to. It is not the same situation as it is for Sansa. But I don't blame Tyrion for marrying Sansa. When I read the books for the first time I was actually kinda happy about it, because I thought he would protect her and they could collaborate. 

My problem is with him sexually assaulting her, with him wanting to consummate the marriage, given everything he knew.

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Yes, he wants Winterfell. Who doesn't? But he isn't willing to do this to Sansa to get Winterfell. His family are going to get Winterfell through her one way or another. Through someone who doesn't care at all or her. She's going through this for political reasons. Its really just about how bad its going to be for her.

I agree. So molesting her and wanting to rape her was just completely unnecessary.

I still don't see how molesting her and putting her through the fear of getting raped, could be for her benefit. He cares about her enough to not beat her up or torture her or mistreat her in any other way the way Joffrey did. But not enough to put her very obvious needs before his own, while being aware of said needs.

And she is going through this because she is a war prisoner and her family was murdered by the family, whose prisoner she is.

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Maybe you should read up again, because he literally isn't doing this to get something, even though its something he wants badly.

I was just answering to your "it's a job" argument. But if this isn't even the case anymore in your opinion, it makes even less sense for him to want to rape her, which let to molestation. Beforehand you argued, he did it to get her pregnant to get WF. But now you say the Lannisters would get WF anyway (I agree) and that's not the reason he married her. I'd say we don't know for sure, that it's not at least partly the reason, since we have this quote:

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is."

But if he doesn't want WF why wanting to put her through all of this? 

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He didn't put his needs before hers. Thats exactly, and really the main reason, why I'm arguing against you. He put her needs ahead of his own every step of the way, from arguing against the need to marry her, to marrying her himself to prevent her being forced to marry someone who didn't care for her at all, from the ceremony and standing up to and publicly threatening a vicious and volatile King to protect her from the traditional bedding  ceremony, to holding back from actually bedding her, to enduring the humiliation and scorn after it became known and risking his position in order to continue to protect her.

He did except for when he wanted to rape her and molested her, despite her fear, which she told him with words and he ignored, despite acknowledging multiple times, that she was a child, and being horrified, when she told him her age, despite her not disagreeing, when he called himself ugly and realizing she was repulsed by him. After all of this he still molests her- this is not protection. What happened to her before with all the other men, he is now doing to her as well.

And again I don't think there is reason to believe, that Lancel would have been worse- he seems to be a great fella now.

Also IMO Tyrion agreed, because Tywin made him feel like nobody would want him anyway and this was his only chance for a pretty wife and an estate of his own. It had nothing specifically to do with her benefit. Tyrion was kind to Sansa, when he came across her by coincidence, but he didn't go out of his way before the beating incidence to protect her from Joffrey's wrath. When she was missing during the riot, his only concern was for Jaime.

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And while I understand that touching her breast once, when they were both naked, you see as molesting her, I think thats an extraordinarily blind approach. 

This is by definition sexual assault and childhood sexual abuse. And I really think it would be cool, if people knew that in 2020. This is not just my subjective interpretation.

Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.^[1] It is a form of sexual violence, which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.^[1][2][3]

Child sexual abuse, also called child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation.^[1][2] Forms of child sexual abuse include engaging in sexual activities with a child (whether by asking or pressuring, or by other means), indecent exposure (of the genitals, female nipples, etc.), child grooming, child sexual exploitation ^[3][4][5] or using a child to produce child pornography

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They were both naked, they had both gone through all the marriage procedures, she had effectively given her consent.

What are you talking about? She was force into it. This is the opposite of consent. She is a prisoner, they have put her through severe domestic abuse over the course of a year and have killed her father and are at war with her family. So any yes from her should mean absolutely nothing. But she yells "no" numerous times and even tries to run away, but there is nowhere to run to and Cersei and Joffrey, her abusers, make it crystal clear, that they will marry her no matter what and that she has no choice. 

“You’re prettier with your mouth closed, Sansa,” Cersei told her. “Come along now, the septon is waiting. And the wedding guests as well.” “No,” Sansa blurted. “No.” “Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father’s place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my brother Tyrion.” My claim, she thought, sickened. Dontos the Fool was not so foolish after all; he had seen the truth of it. Sansa backed away from the queen. “I won’t.” I’m to marry Willas, I’m to be the lady of Highgarden, please … “I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He’s a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall.” “You can’t make me.” “Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.” The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. “Escort Lady Sansa to the sept,” she told them. “Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly.” Sansa tried to run, but Cersei’s handmaid caught her before she’d gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, “Do as you’re told, sweetling, it won’t be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren’t they?”

(...)

The king was resplendent in crimson and gold, his crown on his head. “I’m your father today,” he announced. “You’re not,” she flared. “You’ll never be.” His face darkened. “I am. I’m your father, and I can marry you to whoever I like. To anyone. You’ll marry the pig boy if I say so, and bed down with him in the sty.” His green eyes glittered with amusement. “Or maybe I should give you to Ilyn Payne, would you like him better?”

How in the world is this consensual ? she is forced in every possible way. Or should she have fought till the death to not get married to a Lannister? Those are the people, who have severely physically abused her and killed her father after all. After that she cries throughout the ceremony and she doesn't kneel for Tyrion as well.

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Touching her breast when she has disrobed into his marriage bed is a tentative test towards the next step, not a molestation.

This is molestation by definition. She has not given consent. She has actually enthusiastically refused and he knows that. Also repeating myself, he knows she is a child, therefore to young for any of this, knows it's cruel to her, knows she is repulsed by him. He has established those things before many times now, still he is bitter about her not wanting him and tells her to get on the bed, doesn't allow her to cover herself and gropes her. She can't deny him, she has to obey him by law and she is all alone among enemies, who won't help her.

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And he decided that her consent was not enough, that her true feelings mattered more than her choices and actions. 

She didn't consent. She was never in the position to do so anyway. But she also never consented, quite the opposite, she was forced.

Her choices were to be either raped by Lancel or Tyrion and she didn't care, since she didn't want a Lannister at all. So which choices are you talking about? she had no choices. If the quotes above aren't enough. 

Sansa later says it again “They made me marry him. I never wanted it.”

Quote

And he continued doing that, not touching her even as they slept together in the a marriage bed, both clothed to make it less difficult for both of them, by his choice. 

I'm not saying, that he did anything horrible to her except for molesting her, but given the circumstances, her age and situation and Tyrion's knowledge about all of that, that's just weighs very heavy to me. 

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Given that it's from Sansa's POV, it's hard to say what his thoughts are on the subject.

And, technically, she's not a child.  She has gone through puberty, and (probably) has secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and curves.  But it is still a bit icky.  

And, by Westeros standards (and real-life Middle ages standards, for that matter) she is not a child any more.

It is probably worth mentioning that, in Westeros and the real Middle Ages on which it is somewhat based, children, especially younger adolescents, do ( and did) all sorts of things that range from inappropriate to flat-out illegal today.  I tend to just roll with it.  It's easier that way, if a bit lazy.

Girls weren't married normally at 12 in the Middle Ages though and if they were, it wasn't consummated right away, because getting such a young girl pregnant is not healthy and dangerous for mother and child and given the high number of childbed deaths girls were for the most part quite a bit older, when the got married for that reason and they also hit puberty on average two years later.

I also never got the impression, that it was normal to get married and have the marriage be consummated at 12 in Westeros. The only other person, who does that is Ramsey, if I recall correctly. 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not disagreeing that Sansa suffered a lot of emotional trauma since her father died. The women have all suffered some degree of emotional trauma.

For me comparing a novel with real life is just falling down the rabbit hole. But to each their own.

The story tells me that a girl who is flowered is fit to be wedded and bedded, and that's what I'm going to go with, even though, yes, I know, no 12 year old should ever ever be married off to anyone.

A girl that age should be having fun with her friends and writing Sansa + Loras = Love & marriage inside a heart because she had a crush on him. She shouldn't be preoccupied with taking off her clothes for the husband she was forced to marry because that's what she has to do.

But if we don't look at the characters as real human beings, as what do we look at them then at all? Like is the mountain, then actually an okay guy, because he is not real and also Tywin his in universe boss has encouraged him to do what he is doing?

Westeros' society and culture is definitely different from modern, western society, but that doesn't mean the children are psychological any older at 12, than 12 year olds anywhere else. IMO GRRM has written all the children appropriately for their age and that's the way we should view them. Sansa is a very realistic 12 year old girl, the craziest thing, in regards to sex, she has done until now is imagining kissing Loras and touching his bare chest- that's normal 12 year old girl stuff. And there are 12 year old girls today, who are forced into child marriages for cultural reasons. They are suddenly also "forced to grow up", through abuse. It's no different for Sansa.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think the idea was that Tyrion and Sansa were doing what was expected of them. You get married, you consummate. Yes, he wants her and yes he is aroused, but he also stops and decides that he's not going to have sex with her and his father can bitch about it as much as he wants. He goes back to Shae instead, he tries to protect Sansa, he tries to befriend her. He stops sleeping naked. So on some level he does try to be respectful toward her. Or as respectful as Tyrion can be toward someone. 

Sansa had her period. The seamstress making her wedding dress tells her that her bosom will be as lovely as the queen's and that she shouldn't hide it.

Sansa thinks about how she couldn't lace her jerkin all the way to the top and how the stableboy was gaping at her when he helped her to her saddle and she also thinks how she sometimes catches men looking at her chest.

Sansa is a child-woman and clearly a beautiful one. And the men around her will keep on perving. Marillion tried to rape her and Littlefinger wants kisses and wants her. He's even older than Tyrion.

This is a universe that is really unkind to women. Dany was 13, married to a man 17 years older than her who didn't care how old she was and had sex with her whenever he wanted so much so that she thought about killing herself. And Jeyne Poole was 13 and married off to Ramsay who is an animal. And if that had really been Arya instead, she would have been even younger than that. 

What we consider pedophilia is not that in Westeros. We're talking about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, but Lysa might have been as young as 14 when she was married off to Jon Arryn, who was old enough to be her grandfather. He did not hesitate to consummate his marriage since she thought she was pregnant at the same time as Catelyn. The story is littered with examples.

Women are good for being sold into marriage, having children, probably dying while having said children. It makes me appreciate the female characters even more for trying to rise above that and be more than what society Westeros for them.

My problem is not that Tyrion is aroused by her, but that he acted on it. This is not a normal wedding: she is forced into it by her captors and abusers, therefore doesn't even slightly consent and nobody, that she loves and trusts, consents either; she is not helping her family, like is often done through arranged marriages, but is forced to help work against them; she is separated from her family, through this marriage forever, she is too young (Tyrion says and thinks so himself repeatedly, why would he even think so, if it wasn't true?) and repulsed by Tyrion. Those are all things Tyrion is fully aware of. And IMO this is not just a thing you do. In universe there are a lot of men, who would never agree to such a marriage - let alone consummation. Tyrion has now full authority over her, he is aware, that you can wait with the consummation, that is done in universe all the time, he is aware how horrible all of this is for her. If he wouldn't tell us all that stuff himself, if he wasn't such a smart man, capable of empathy, someone, who has shown before he doesn't do what is expected of him, I wouldn't be so hard on him.

Sansa however obeyed, after fighting like crazy to not have to marry Tyrion, because she had no other choice. What was she supposed to do? But it was very clear throughout it all that she didn't want any of it.

[SeanF]

One relevant issue is this.

Tyrion may have treated Sansa more decently than the other Lannisters, but she was still his captive.  He served at the highest level, in a government that imprisoned Sansa against her will.  He did so willingly, for the sake of his own ambition.

So, it's a good thing he didn't rape her, but he still did her a major wrong.  Heiresses do of course get kidnapped, and married by force, but even in-universe, that's a bad thing.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

One relevant issue is this.

Tyrion may have treated Sansa more decently than the other Lannisters, but she was still his captive.  He served at the highest level, in a government that imprisoned Sansa against her will.  He did so willingly, for the sake of his own ambition.

So, it's a good thing he didn't rape her, but he still did her a major wrong.  Heiresses do of course get kidnapped, and married by force, but even in-universe, that's a bad thing.

  

this is not a normal "arranged marriage" with a guy Sansa happens to dislike. Her main reason for disliking this whole situation, is that he  is a Lannister. IMO it falls under the same umbrella as the RW and Ned's beheading, even though not so bad of course, since nobody is killed.