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Black Crow

Heresy 230 and die Herren von Winterfell

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Welcome to Heresy 230, the latest episode of the long-running thread taking a slantwise look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

The thread began just a few months after the publication of A Dance with Dragons, under the title The Wall the Watch and a Heresy.

It questioned the true nature and function of the Wall and the Nights Watch and the Heresy lay in questioning the true role of the Starks and above all questioned the popular assumption that Jon Snow is really the lost heir to the Targaryen crown and the Iron Throne, and that as the legendary eastern hero Azor Ahai he will ride the RTAF [Royal Targaryen Airforce] to victory over the horror from the north.

Discussion here is still open and free-ranging, covering many different aspects of the story and where it could really be heading, but essentially we still question the Lost Targaryen scenario and remain focussed on GRRM’s declaration that this story revolves around the children of Winterfell, and therefore we concentrate on what may really be going on, and the real significance of the mystery of the Musgrave Ritual that is Winterfell and its crypts, and ultimately the Stark connection to Ice.

Its hard to summarise nearly a decade of discussion into a single post, but those who have been part of it need no reminders, and if you’re new to Heresy, although the heady days when we got through 200 posts in 48 hours are long gone, you’ll find that it still remains the premier thread on the board if you want to delve below the superficial. So just plunge in.

Currently we’re looking again at where the children of Winterfell are bound. Jon, not climbing to the Iron Throne after a guilt-free resurrection, but rising as the Winter King of death, while Bran is destined to be the Green King of Spring and renewal – and Sansa of the Snowflake Communion will restore Winterfell and the Stark bloodline.

 

Edited by Black Crow

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I for one am expecting Jon to follow in the Nights King's footsteps, but with twists and perhaps an opposite outcome.

1) The Nights King married an Other and made her his queen. Jon Snow's love, Ygritte is dead and they never married, however his cousin Alys Karstark married the Magnar of Thenn.

2) Its said the Nights King ruled for thirteen years and bound the Watch with magic. Did Jon Snow even serve a full year before some of the Watch mutinied and stabbed him? Were the mutineers bound with some magic and forced to do the evil deed?

3) The Lord of Winterfell teamed up with Joramun, King Beyond the Wall, to take the Nights King down. The current King Beyond the Wall is said to be hanging in a cage at Winterfell and the Lord made him a cloak of six skins to keep warm. The cloak made of six skins is interesting, because it implies a glamour. Mance escaped a public burning by wearing a glamor of The Lord of Bones - aka Rattleshirt, while Varamyr often has "Sixskins" tagged onto the end of his name which is a reference to the number of animals he held in thrall.

4) None of the stories about the Nights King tell us what happened to him after he was removed from office. Was he killed? Was he imprisoned? Was he forced to live with the wildlings? Who knows? Jon should be dead or dying at the beginning of Winds, but the author teases us with, "so you think he's dead?" leaving us with the suspicion that this is more like a Princess Bride "he's only mostly dead" situation.

5) When the Lord of Winterfell allied with the King Beyond the Wall, the assumption is that both went to the Wall to remove the Nights King from office, but many readers suspect that after resurrection, Jon will ride to Winterfell and take Ramsay down. Will he take Winterfell and rule as an undead Lord? Or will he leave the castle to a relative and ride north to defeat/or lead the army of the dead?

Edited by Melifeather

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In Old Nan's story of the thing that came in the night to 'prentice boys; I'm struck by the fact that none of them gave the same description.  This reminds me of the faceless men and Coldhands who makes Sam swear three times not to reveal that Bran is alive.  This is a bargain he makes for lives that Coldhands has saved.  This sounds very much like the FM coda that death pays for life.

The thing that comes in the night is seen with the 'prentice boys chained behind him.

All the prentice boys die and I wonder if they die taking the 'test' for a greenseer.  One 'prentice boy goes mad spawning the stories of Mad Axe.   THe Night King was a Stark and so giving his 'seed' or his offspring to the old gods would fit the pattern we see now with the Jon, Arya and Bran as 'prentice boys.

It strikes me that the Night King could also be the Thing in disguise testing the 'prentice boys in their dreams.

Edited by LynnS

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Jon may well be the new Nights King, but we need to remember that we only have one telling of legend, by Old Nan. [ok she evidently told it many times, but we only have her version] This means that we have an old legend stretching back generations which is not to be relied on in detail. All that we can be sure of is that we're not talking about the Mummers' version and that too much of the story is missing.

As to the "little bit dead" suggestion, you didn't hear it from GRRM but its a pretty fair description of Coldhands. What will be interesting is getting the POV of a man who is a "little bit dead" because we haven't had that from Coldhands or his opposite number. Beric Dondarrion who was raised by Fire rather than Ice. Its not going to be difficult because after all we're pretty sure that Our Mel had been "raised" and perhaps Victarion as well, but its going to be interesting.

And thats where of course we return to the outcomes in the Mummers' Farce, outcomes which were revealed to them by GRRM but make no sense without an understanding of what's really going on, and a knowledge of the Mabinogion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

po

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Imagine GRRM only told D&D that Bran will be king in the end, Jon will kill Daenerys though he loves her because she goes mad, and Sansa will rule Winterfell. 

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5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Imagine GRRM only told D&D that Bran will be king in the end, Jon will kill Daenerys though he loves her because she goes mad, and Sansa will rule Winterfell. 

Well that's what I assume he did at that conference in Santa Fe a few years back. The trouble is that although he may have told them how the story arcs end, he didn't fill them in on how it all gets there. In itself this will have been bad enough but when those endings were perched on top of an exercise in fan-fiction wholly alien to what GRRM is actually writing. Not much wonder the result was an utter dog's breakfast.

 

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well that's what I assume he did at that conference in Santa Fe a few years back. The trouble is that although he may have told them how the story arcs end, he didn't fill them in on how it all gets there. In itself this will have been bad enough but when those endings were perched on top of an exercise in fan-fiction wholly alien to what GRRM is actually writing. Not much wonder the result was an utter dog's breakfast.

 

That is my take, too. In addition he may have told them insignificant scenes in great detail, and they got lost.

Unfortunately, GRRM got lost himself. 

 

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@Black Crow First and foremost, please do not forget our friends in Russia as Die Herron Von Winterfell in their world is:

Принц Винтерфелла

I'd also ask for clarification on the gender reference in this latest edition of Heresy.  "Die Herron" suggests a masculine gender to the anticipated recipient to Winterfell's throne; but recent posts refer back to Sansa's "Snowflake Commnion" which would imply a female derriere will occupy the coveted Northern post.

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The "reference" is the title of the German edition of A Game of Thrones, used here by way of emphasising that this is about the Starks of Winterfell rather than the Targaryen Succession

Edited by Black Crow
spelling

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Since we are labeled heresy:

Would the story have been better (and maybe finished?) if Robert's attempt to have Daenerys killed had been successful? 

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Since we are labeled heresy:

Would the story have been better (and maybe finished?) if Robert's attempt to have Daenerys killed had been successful? 

Possibly, but I rather think that the real culprit is our Mel. If we turn back to the synopsis, the story as proposed was that in the beginning Westeros would be torn apart by a feud between the Starks and the Lannisters. Thus weakened it would then be invaded by Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Golden Horde. Then no sooner is she settling her bum on the Iron Thone that she has to face the horror from the North, 

That was straightforward enough so far as Die Herren von Winterfell was concerned but Königsfehde introduced us for the first time to Mad Mel and Azor Ahai, and that, I reckon, is where it all started spinning off course, because although Danaerys the Dragonlord and her arc will have shoehorned straight in to both the invader role predicted in the synopsis and the Azor Ahai prediction by our Mel, a combination of the Mereenese Knot and the rise of R+L=J took us far far away from the centrality of the Starks and Winterfell

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On 2/22/2020 at 1:48 PM, Black Crow said:

Possibly, but I rather think that the real culprit is our Mel. If we turn back to the synopsis, the story as proposed was that in the beginning Westeros would be torn apart by a feud between the Starks and the Lannisters. Thus weakened it would then be invaded by Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Golden Horde. Then no sooner is she settling her bum on the Iron Thone that she has to face the horror from the North, 

That was straightforward enough so far as Die Herren von Winterfell was concerned but Königsfehde introduced us for the first time to Mad Mel and Azor Ahai, and that, I reckon, is where it all started spinning off course, because although Danaerys the Dragonlord and her arc will have shoehorned straight in to both the invader role predicted in the synopsis and the Azor Ahai prediction by our Mel, a combination of the Mereenese Knot and the rise of R+L=J took us far far away from the centrality of the Starks and Winterfell

Without Melisandre, Renly kills Stannis and wins Blackwater. The Lannisters plus Sansa die. Rob executes Jaime as Sansa is dead, not sure he would attack Renly and also not sure whom the Freys were to side with once the Lannisters are gone.

That could leave us with Rob vs Theon, Renly vs Daenerys, Oberyn Martell, Roose Bolton and Mance as wildcards. 

Maybe can start an alternate timeline? 

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8 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe can start an alternate timeline? 

Oh that could be fun and although she's the most prominent one it would also be interesting to see what the story would look like if other characters not mentioned in the synopsis never appeared - but lets stick with our Mel to start with.

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

Without Melisandre, Renly kills Stannis and wins Blackwater. The Lannisters plus Sansa die. Rob executes Jaime as Sansa is dead, not sure he would attack Renly and also not sure whom the Freys were to side with once the Lannisters are gone.

That could leave us with Rob vs Theon, Renly vs Daenerys, Oberyn Martell, Roose Bolton and Mance as wildcards. 

Maybe can start an alternate timeline? 

Who is to say those things would have occurred? Why would Renly have won the Battle of the Blackwater? I think if something is fated to happen it will still occur even with an attempted intervention. It will just happen in an unexpected way.

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43 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Who is to say those things would have occurred? Why would Renly have won the Battle of the Blackwater? I think if something is fated to happen it will still occur even with an attempted intervention. It will just happen in an unexpected way.

I haven't read the books in a long time, but wasn't there some additional confusion because someone (Loras?) showed up in Renly's armor? Brienne and Loras would have fought on Renly's side as well. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, alienarea said:

I haven't read the books in a long time, but wasn't there some additional confusion because someone (Loras?) showed up in Renly's armor? Brienne and Loras would have fought on Renly's side as well. 

 

 

That was to confuse Stannis. Garlan Tyrell wore Renly's armor to make it appear as if Renly's ghost was there to take vengeance upon Stannis.

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Speaking of the circumstances surrounding Renly's armor, Loras knows it wasn't Brienne that killed him:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

As in a swordfight, sometimes it is best to try a different stroke. "It's said you fought magnificently in the battle . . . almost as well as Lord Renly's ghost beside you. A Sworn Brother has no secrets from his Lord Commander. Tell me, ser. Who was wearing Renly's armor?"
 
For a moment Loras Tyrell looked as though he might refuse, but in the end he remembered his vows. "My brother," he said sullenly. "Renly was taller than me, and broader in the chest. His armor was too loose on me, but it suited Garlan well."
 
"Was the masquerade your notion, or his?"

"Lord Littlefinger suggested it. He said it would frighten Stannis's ignorant men-at-arms."

"And so it did." And some knights and lordlings too. "Well, you gave the singers something to make rhymes about, I suppose that's not to be despised. What did you do with Renly?"

"I buried him with mine own hands, in a place he showed me once when I was a squire at Storm's End. No one shall ever find him there to disturb his rest." He looked at Jaime defiantly. "I will defend King Tommen with all my strength, I swear it. I will give my life for his if need be. But I will never betray Renly, by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He was the best of them."

The best dressed perhaps, Jaime thought, but for once he did not say it. The arrogance had gone out of Ser Loras the moment he began to speak of Renly. He answered truly. He is proud and reckless and full of piss, but he is not false. Not yet. "As you say. One more thing, and you may return to your duties."

"Yes, my lord?"

"I still have Brienne of Tarth in a tower cell."

The boy's mouth hardened. "A black cell would be better."

"You are certain that's what she deserves?"

"She deserves death. I told Renly that a woman had no place in the Rainbow Guard. She won the mêlée with a trick."

"I seem to recall another knight who was fond of tricks. He once rode a mare in heat against a foe mounted on a bad-tempered stallion. What sort of trickery did Brienne use?"

Ser Loras flushed. "She leapt . . . it makes no matter. She won, I grant her that. His Grace put a rainbow cloak around her shoulders. And she killed him. Or let him die."

"A large difference there." The difference between my crime and the shame of Boros Blount.

"She had sworn to protect him. Ser Emmon Cuy, Ser Robar Royce, Ser Parmen Crane, they'd sworn as well. How could anyone have hurt him, with her inside his tent and the others just outside? Unless they were part of it."

"There were five of you at the wedding feast," Jaime pointed out. "How could Joffrey die? Unless you were part of it?"

Ser Loras drew himself up stiffly. "There was nothing we could have done."

"The wench says the same. She grieves for Renly as you do. I promise you, I never grieve for Aerys. Brienne's ugly, and pighead stubborn. But she lacks the wits to be a liar, and she is loyal past the point of sense. She swore an oath to bring me to King's Landing, and here I sit. This hand I lost . . . well, that was my doing as much as hers. Considering all she did to protect me, I have no doubt that she would have fought for Renly, had there been a foe to fight. But a shadow?" Jaime shook his head. "Draw your sword, Ser Loras. Show me how you'd fight a shadow. I should like to see that."

Ser Loras made no move to rise. "She fled," he said. "She and Catelyn Stark, they left him in his blood and ran. Why would they, if it was not their work?" He stared at the table. "Renly gave me the van. Otherwise it would have been me helping him don his armor. He often entrusted that task to me. We had . . . we had prayed together that night. I left him with her. Ser Parmen and Ser Emmon were guarding the tent, and Ser Robar Royce was there as well. Ser Emmon swore Brienne had . . . although . . ."

"Yes?" Jaime prompted, sensing a doubt.

"The gorget was cut through. One clean stroke, through a steel gorget. Renly's armor was the best, the finest steel. How could she do that? I tried myself, and it was not possible. She's freakish strong for a woman, but even the Mountain would have needed a heavy axe. And why armor him and then cut his throat?" He gave Jaime a confused look. "If not her, though . . . how could it be a shadow?"


 

 

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I'm inclined to agree with Feather on this one. It was necessary for Stannis to slay Renly one way or the other and then lose the battle of the Blackwater, but it wasn't necessary for Mel to be involved - after all he kept her out of the Blackwater. On the other hand encouraging Stannis to ultimately destructive things has been a good move in plot terms and in that context too we could also argue that the Azor Ahai/R+L=J business has been a very successful red herring.

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A brief aside on the Völkerschlachtdenkmal:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/monument-to-the-battle-of-the-nations

Do you suppose this monument was the inspiration for the Winterfell crypts?  THe stone guardian on top of the monument have a representation of dogs at their feet.  Mastiffs I think.

And how odd that the german version of the book has a unique title, compared to other editions. 

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