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Understanding MMD - a re-examination of her intentions


sweetsunray

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Yet another possible parallel for MMD: what if we substitute the name and person of Rhaella every time we see or hear from Mirri Maz Duur?

And what if the dark magic ritual isn't a botched attempt to restore Drogo to a healthy state of human existence but the mysterious and long-sought ritual for hatching dragon eggs? Dany appears to stumble upon the dragon-hatching magic as a lucky side-effect of cremating Drogo and punishing MMD, but maybe she was working in cooperation with MMD who guided her to the final steps of the ritual. The shadow-dancing in the tent is the prelude to the pyre, where the real transformation takes place, turning Khal Drogo into Drogon.

We know that Rhaella died in childbirth when Dany was born, and the pyre is a rebirth for Dany. It is appropriate that there is another mother figure who will die in "childbirth" at the pyre. When MMD tells Dany that the death that will pay for life is not Dany's death, Dany is quick to approve the strategy. I suppose this is consistent with a baby that is determined to be born but doesn't realize that the mother will die in child birth. I think it is also consistent with the MMD self-sacrifice hints that sweetsunray is seeing in the text.

We also know that Aerys raped Rhaella, which may be a match in this situation for MMD being raped by Dothraki warriors - I'm thinking Khal Drogo possibly represents Aerys or (more generically) the male Targaryen line and the bloodriders are extensions of Khal Drogo when they rape the Lamb Women.

Rhaella was at Summerhall and she escaped with baby Rhaegar. Many of us suspect that Aegon V was trying to sacrifice Rhaegar in an "only death can pay for life" ritual to hatch the dragon eggs. Instead, he and his son Duncan and many other family members were sacrificed and (apparently) dragon eggs did not hatch.

If MMD is a reborn or parallel version of Rhaella, she would carry the insights gained at Summerhall. Added to that is all of the dark magic training and study gained by MMD in Asshai. What was present in the Dothrak Sea, in the tent and at the pyre, that were missing at Summerhall?

Maybe the dragon-hatching ritual has to be initiated by a woman? Two women? When Dany tells MMD that she is willing to sacrifice someone's life to somehow revive Drogo, two generations of women are committing to dark magic. I am also thinking of female lizards that can clone themselves without a contribution from a male lizard. The life is handed down through the female line, no matter what the Targaryen kings might think.

I have also suspected that the presence of Ser Jorah is somehow a key to Dany's successful hatching of the eggs. There are characters who can cross barriers and Ser Jorah was the first over the wall (with Thoros of Myr) at Pyke. Ser Duncan the Tall and other kings guard members also seem to have a special barrier-crossing magic. I don't know whether Ser Jorah counts as the equivalent of Dany's king's guard, or whether his magic is different and unique, helping to explain why Dany was successful and Summerhall was a disaster. Pulling living dragons across some magic barrier may be like Ser Davos having to transport Melisandre across the barrier at Storm's End so she can give birth to her shadow baby. One of the few things we know about Summerhall is that Ser Duncan the Tall saved Rhaella and baby Rhaegar. If he "refused" to go along with the dragon-hatching ritual of Aegon V, the dark magic may have failed because of his refusal.

Another difference between the pyre and Summerhall may be hidden in wordplay. Some time ago, I questioned whether there was a pun on "pyromance" and "pyre romance." Targaryen kings keep turning to pyromancers to make wild fire that burns hot and green. But they have loveless arranged marriages that lack romance. Dany does not rely on pyromancers but instead sees herself in a wedding ceremony when she embraces the yellow and orange fire. She is both a bride in a romance and a baby being born. The presence/sacrifice of her beloved husband Drogo and of mother-figure Rhaella/MMD are both required for the ritual to be effective. (I'm also mindful of Qhorin Halfhand's little speech about fire being similar to a maid on her wedding night just before Jon is reborn and delivered into the hands of the Free Folk, including "kissed by fire" Ygritte.)

On 3/9/2020 at 5:32 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

She could smell the odor of burning flesh, no different than horseflesh roasting in a firepit. The pyre roared in the deepening dusk like some great beast, drowning out the fainter sound of Mirri Maz Duur's screaming and sending up long tongues of flame to lick at the belly of the night. As the smoke grew thicker, the Dothraki backed away, coughing. Huge orange gouts of fire unfurled their banners in that hellish wind, the logs hissing and cracking, glowing cinders rising on the smoke to float away into the dark like so many newborn fireflies. The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her.

She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough. The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought. Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn.

 

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On 3/9/2020 at 10:59 PM, SeanF said:

Ultimately, if Martin's moral message is just look the other way, keep your head down, do nothing, when injustices are being perpetrated it's not a good one.  That people who fight injustice are worse than the people who perpetrate it is reactionary and nihilistic as a message.

I don't think this is the way he is going. More like, giving a realistic warning how even a good call makes initially good people do things that gradually change them. That there is a very fine line between harsh pragmatism and plunging into darkness just because you can, because you have no-one to beyour moral compass or because you don't listen to them.

15 hours ago, SeanF said:

It's all very ambiguous and contradictory.  MMD wants to guilt-trip Daenerys by telling her that she knew what the price for Drogo;'s life would be (ie her unborn child).  The truth, or is she just messing with her mind?  I don't know. Perhaps no death at all was required  to put him in a vegetative condition.  To a Dothraki, such a fate would be worse than death.

Bingo. If she is just messing with Dany, then she played no role in Rhaego's death. If she's telling the truth though, then how?  Did the ritual somehow speed the childbirth, was the whole whole "don't enter the tent" just to keep people away? Would it have fed on Rhaego even if Dany never entered the tent? Would it have targeted any unborn baby in the vicinity, even if Dany wasn't there?

 

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree but doesn't she say death would be 'cleaner'? This to me, implies some dabble in dark arts or taboo magic of some sort. 

It's rather ambiguous. It could refer both to the process as well as the outcome. In connection with the creepy ritual, blood and "don't enter the tent", it does sound like something forbidden.

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree it was for Dany but not necessarily because she truly wanted to save Dany. Catatonic Drogo does nothing to protect Dany from Qotho. I think it was to pay Dany back in kind - to 'save' her the way she was 'saved' 

I like your way of thinking. It would be a perfect revenge - MMD past any torture and dying with the knowledge that Dany would soon follow. 

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On 3/10/2020 at 1:43 AM, sweetsunray said:

Her first answer to Dany's question why she would offer to help Drogo, implies to this doubt in her god: "All men are one flock, or so we are taught."

If she had answered "All men are one flock," then MMD would have still believed in her god without question. But she added, "or so we are taught." This implies that when she says this, it's not something she believes (in that moment), but regards it as a teaching, and that she's questioning that teaching. Instead she finds her faith in the pride of healing itself in that moment of answering. Only after performing her medical treatment on Drogo in her temple does she sound as having more faith in her Great Shepherd once more, indicating she believed she understood her god's intentions better now. But then when Drogo is beyond a healer's help, even that adjusted interpretation of "god's plan" falters.

Quite possibly. But the addition "or so we are taught" might simply suggest broader knowledge of someone who has travelled wide and far and was exposed to other religions, and as such may not consider the doctrine all that there is to it.

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38 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It's rather ambiguous. It could refer both to the process as well as the outcome. In connection with the creepy ritual, blood and "don't enter the tent", it does sound like something forbidden.

Absolutely, I agree. I was differentiating that from what SS said - that death would be 'kinder' because I think cleaner & kinder could potentially be a world apart. 

 

39 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

like your way of thinking. It would be a perfect revenge - MMD past any torture and dying with the knowledge that Dany would soon follow. 

For sure, I think there was a very clear lesson MMD wanted Dany to learn here. She wanted Dany to understand what she meant when she said she had nothing left. 

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37 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I don't think this is the way he is going. More like, giving a realistic warning how even a good call makes initially good people do things that gradually change them. That there is a very fine line between harsh pragmatism and plunging into darkness just because you can, because you have no-one to beyour moral compass or because you don't listen to them.

Bingo. If she is just messing with Dany, then she played no role in Rhaego's death. If she's telling the truth though, then how?  Did the ritual somehow speed the childbirth, was the whole whole "don't enter the tent" just to keep people away? Would it have fed on Rhaego even if Dany never entered the tent? Would it have targeted any unborn baby in the vicinity, even if Dany wasn't there?

 

It's rather ambiguous. It could refer both to the process as well as the outcome. In connection with the creepy ritual, blood and "don't enter the tent", it does sound like something forbidden.

I like your way of thinking. It would be a perfect revenge - MMD past any torture and dying with the knowledge that Dany would soon follow. 

Certainly, I think war will brutalise anyone who takes part in it.  We (the allies ) were doing stuff by the end of WWII that we would not have done at the beginning.  But, I think there are times when one has to take that risk.

I think that that last point makes sense.  With Drogo in a vegetative state, Dany could expect to be raped to death, and her child fed to dogs.

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I don't see any great mystery about MMD's warnings to stay out of the tent: she simply didn't want anyone to stop her doing what she had planned. The Dothraki regard blood magic as a major taboo, so would (did) want to stop the process. But they are also childishly superstitious, tell them that death stalks the tent, and 'no living man may enter' and all the rest of the juju, they're more likely to stay out of it, no matter how much they might want to interfere.

 

I also don't accept the thesis that MMD warning Dany specifically to stay out of the tent proves MMD's innocence with respect to murdering Rhaego.

What are the options?

  • Dany goes in - Rhaego dies - MMD says 'told you so; not my fault'
  • Dany stays outside - Rhaego dies - MMD say 'why you looking at me, I was in here?'

If MMD had planned the murder, then whatever Dany does, MMD has an exculpatory explanation which directs blame from herself. Therefore, that warning does NOT prove MMD's innocence.

 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Certainly, I think war will brutalise anyone who takes part in it.  We (the allies ) were doing stuff by the end of WWII that we would not have done at the beginning.  But, I think there are times when one has to take that risk. 

Totally, I believe MMD has been brutalised beyond endurance and is quite intent on vengeance. She seems to take great pride that the Stallion Who Mounts the World, will not destroy any cities etc etc, I can understand her joy at the thought that at least one Dothraki rapist will not see the light of day.

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4 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I don't see any great mystery about MMD's warnings to stay out of the tent: she simply didn't want anyone to stop her doing what she had planned. The Dothraki regard blood magic as a major taboo, so would (did) want to stop the process. But they are also childishly superstitious, tell them that death stalks the tent, and 'no living man may enter' and all the rest of the juju, they're more likely to stay out of it, no matter how much they might want to interfere.

 

I also don't accept the thesis that MMD warning Dany specifically to stay out of the tent proves MMD's innocence with respect to murdering Rhaego.

What are the options?

  • Dany goes in - Rhaego dies - MMD says 'told you so; not my fault'
  • Dany stays outside - Rhaego dies - MMD say 'why you looking at me, I was in here?'

If MMD had planned the murder, then whatever Dany does, MMD has an exculpatory explanation which directs blame from herself. Therefore, that warning does NOT prove MMD's innocence.

 

Totally, I believe MMD has been brutalised beyond endurance and is quite intent on vengeance. She seems to take great pride that the Stallion Who Mounts the World, will not destroy any cities etc etc, I can understand her joy at the thought that at least one Dothraki rapist will not see the light of day.

Then we get to the point of discussing whether killing baby Hitler is justified.

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5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I don't see any great mystery about MMD's warnings to stay out of the tent: she simply didn't want anyone to stop her doing what she had planned. The Dothraki regard blood magic as a major taboo, so would (did) want to stop the process. But they are also childishly superstitious, tell them that death stalks the tent, and 'no living man may enter' and all the rest of the juju, they're more likely to stay out of it, no matter how much they might want to interfere.

 

I also don't accept the thesis that MMD warning Dany specifically to stay out of the tent proves MMD's innocence with respect to murdering Rhaego.

What are the options?

  • Dany goes in - Rhaego dies - MMD says 'told you so; not my fault'
  • Dany stays outside - Rhaego dies - MMD say 'why you looking at me, I was in here?'

If MMD had planned the murder, then whatever Dany does, MMD has an exculpatory explanation which directs blame from herself. Therefore, that warning does NOT prove MMD's innocence.

 

Totally, I believe MMD has been brutalised beyond endurance and is quite intent on vengeance. She seems to take great pride that the Stallion Who Mounts the World, will not destroy any cities etc etc, I can understand her joy at the thought that at least one Dothraki rapist will not see the light of day.

I'm leaning towards this as well.  It doesn't make much sense to me that the blood magic's affect would have only affected those inside the tent.  While I agree that Dany could have simply been going into labor, or perhaps the stress of the battle was causing her to induce, I'm leaning towards the belief that Rhaego was being affected by the blood magic ritual.  

The other issue is Dany's eggs.  She seems to be of the belief that something significant happened to the eggs after the blood magic ritual and her "miscarriage".  And if so, it should be noted that the dragon eggs weren't in the tent where the blood magic ritual took place.  (at least I don't think they were).  

And the description of Rhaego makes me think that there was some transfer between him and the fossilized dragon eggs, it wasn't just a matter of him being long dead:

Quote

He was scaled like a lizard, blind with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat.  When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption.  He had been dead for years.

 

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Then we get to the point of discussing whether killing baby Hitler is justified.

Almost - I was thinking more in terms of the 1944 von Stauffenberg bomb plot (given that in the real world we don't have prophecies or time machines to do for 'Baby' Hitler)

But it is indeed something that needs to be discussed, because it's the old 'eye for an eye' vs. 'turning the other cheek' debate which as I understand it, is going on for 2,000 years old and still no result... and I'd be very surprised if the George hadn't intended to poke his readers with a stick into that direction of thought

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4 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Almost - I was thinking more in terms of the 1944 von Stauffenberg bomb plot (given that in the real world we don't have prophecies or time machines to do for 'Baby' Hitler)

But it is indeed something that needs to be discussed, because it's the old 'eye for an eye' vs. 'turning the other cheek' debate which as I understand it, is going on for 2,000 years old and still no result... and I'd be very surprised if the George hadn't intended to poke his readers with a stick into that direction of thought

My attitude is that eye for eye is justified - so long as one is punishing the perpetrator (eg, if I murder your child, you're entitled to kill me, not my child).

Turning the other cheek is an act of grace.

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14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My attitude is that eye for eye is justified - so long as one is punishing the perpetrator (eg, if I murder your child, you're entitled to kill me, not my child).

Turning the other cheek is an act of grace.

That's why I took issue with the 'Baby'Hitler analogy, because as far as MMD is concerned, she believed that Rhaego himself was the (future) criminal alongside Drogo the current criminal...

... but that aside, surely an eye for eye is 'your child for my child', not 'your life for my child'? That is similar suffering in each case. Killing your child's murderous parent is still a punishment against your child, albeit a different one. They're tricksy things, eyes and cheeks....^_^

To be clear, I believe MMD was being vengeful, less convinced that she was being just, though I expect she felt justified in her own mind. What I do not believe is that she was innocent.

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46 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I don't see any great mystery about MMD's warnings to stay out of the tent: she simply didn't want anyone to stop her doing what she had planned. The Dothraki regard blood magic as a major taboo, so would (did) want to stop the process. But they are also childishly superstitious, tell them that death stalks the tent, and 'no living man may enter' and all the rest of the juju, they're more likely to stay out of it, no matter how much they might want to interfere.

But, apparently know one knew not to enter the tent except Dany. I mean, the Dothraki probably weren't going to enter the tent anyway due to their superstitions but it seems the only one MMD told specifically to stay out of the tent is Dany. Apparenly not even Jorah knew. 

Do you think that whoever, the intended death to pay for Drogo's life was, needed to be in the tent? 

48 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I also don't accept the thesis that MMD warning Dany specifically to stay out of the tent proves MMD's innocence with respect to murdering Rhaego.

What are the options?

  • Dany goes in - Rhaego dies - MMD says 'told you so; not my fault'
  • Dany stays outside - Rhaego dies - MMD say 'why you looking at me, I was in here?'

If MMD had planned the murder, then whatever Dany does, MMD has an exculpatory explanation which directs blame from herself. Therefore, that warning does NOT prove MMD's innocence.

Right, I don't think it proves her innocence but I do wonder how the ritual was meant to work. There were clearly some damaging effects after entering the tent, so MMD gave good advice about not entering. I suppose the person meant to be sacrificed didn't need to be in the tent at all & Mirri is capable of picking her victim via her blood magic from the horde of people outside the tent - but then why, if Rhaego was her intended victim did she  either not bother with telling Dany to stay out side of the tent - after all the baby was going to die in a moment anyway. OR use one of the excuses you provide? 

If the person does need to be in the tent then it makes no sense for MMD to tell Dany to stay out side of the tent, when she needed Rhaego in the tent. 

The thing that bothers me the most about it all is that while telling Dany to stay outside of the tent does offer MMD the opportunity to not claim responsibility, she doesn't use it. To me that means telling her plausible deniability was not her motive for telling Dany to stay outside of the tent. 

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42 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm leaning towards this as well.  It doesn't make much sense to me that the blood magic's affect would have only affected those inside the tent. 

But the blood magic's affect did only affect those inside the tent. The only exception being Mirri herself. 

43 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I agree that Dany could have simply been going into labor, or perhaps the stress of the battle was causing her to induce, I'm leaning towards the belief that Rhaego was being affected by the blood magic ritual.

That is how it appears, I just don't understand her motive for telling Dany to stay out side of the tent - so she doesn't feel the affects of the blood magic, if she were just going to project the affects onto her from inside the tent. She could have just said nothing of going in the tent. 

44 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The other issue is Dany's eggs.  She seems to be of the belief that something significant happened to the eggs after the blood magic ritual and her "miscarriage".  And if so, it should be noted that the dragon eggs weren't in the tent where the blood magic ritual took place.  (at least I don't think they were).  

I think they were - I might be wrong though, I'll check when I get a second. 

45 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And the description of Rhaego makes me think that there was some transfer between him and the fossilized dragon eggs, it wasn't just a matter of him being long dead:

Indeed. @sweetsunray had a good idea as to why that is. Basically, the blood ritual 'stole' all the years of life from Rhaego that he hadn't lived yet. I believe that's it in nut shell but she can explain better. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

That's why I took issue with the 'Baby'Hitler analogy, because as far as MMD is concerned, she believed that Rhaego himself was the (future) criminal alongside Drogo the current criminal...

I think that's what likens it to killing baby Hitler. He is potentially a future criminal, but as it stood had committed no crimes & was wholly & purely innocent. Had MMD waited until he turned into said criminal it would be different IMO

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23 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

... but that aside, surely an eye for eye is 'your child for my child', not 'your life for my child'? That is similar suffering in each case. Killing your child's murderous parent is still a punishment against your child, albeit a different one. They're tricksy things, eyes and cheeks....^_^

haha!! They are indeed. 

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12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But the blood magic's affect did only affect those inside the tent. The only exception being Mirri herself. 

That is how it appears, I just don't understand her motive for telling Dany to stay out side of the tent - so she doesn't feel the affects of the blood magic, if she were just going to project the affects onto her from inside the tent. She could have just said nothing of going in the tent. 

I think they were - I might be wrong though, I'll check when I get a second. 

Indeed. @sweetsunray had a good idea as to why that is. Basically, the blood ritual 'stole' all the years of life from Rhaego that he hadn't lived yet. I believe that's it in nut shell but she can explain better. 

 

That's why I brought up the dragon eggs, if they were indeed affected by the ritual.  I believe that her eggs were in her tent, not the tent they set up specifically for Drogo.  But I could be wrong.  

I think Mirri's warning was that no living man should see the blood magic ritual.  I think this was meant to protect Dany as opposed to Rhaego.  The implication is that Jorah saw something he probably shouldn't have seen which left a dark mark on his soul (eta, or perhaps the ritual latched on to a part of Jorah's sould or shadow).

I think the reason that the Rhaego fetus appeared as it did, was there was a transfer between his soul and the souls of one or more of unborn in the fossilized dragon eggs.  Scales, bat wings, and having been dead for years.  That fits the embryos in the fossilized dragon eggs to a tee.

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6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. @sweetsunray had a good idea as to why that is. Basically, the blood ritual 'stole' all the years of life from Rhaego that he hadn't lived yet. I believe that's it in nut shell but she can explain better. 

I'm also pretty convinced of that, as well. All of Rhaego's 'potential' years have been pulled back in a way. I was also struck by the deformities (wings etc) which are very reminiscent of other Targ stillbirths - was it Maegor whose Essosi lover poisoned his wives' children in the womb? I can't recall now and my internet connection is too bad to use the search site tonight.... but anyway, I took that as further evidence of magical tampering, alongside those years of decay....

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

think the reason that the Rhaego fetus appeared as it did, was there was a transfer between his soul and the souls of one or more of unborn in the fossilized dragon eggs.  Scales, bat wings, and having been dead for years.  That fits the embryos in the fossilized dragon eggs to a tee

Ahh, I see. That does make good sense. 

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's why I brought up the dragon eggs, if they were indeed affected by the ritual.  I believe that her eggs were in her tent, not the tent they set up specifically for Drogo.  But I could be wrong

Definitely. I'll have to look that up when I get home. 

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

think Mirri's warning was that no living man should see the blood magic ritual.  I think this was meant to protect Dany as opposed to Rhaego.  The implication is that Jorah saw something he probably shouldn't have seen which left a dark mark on his soul (eta, or perhaps the ritual latched on to a part of Jorah's sould or shadow

But why did she want to protect Dany? Why would she mind if Jorah or any member of the Dothraki witnessed the ritual & suffered effects from it? Like what would be her motive for that? 

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2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I'm also pretty convinced of that, as well. All of Rhaego's 'potential' years have been pulled back in a way. I was also struck by the deformities (wings etc) which are very reminiscent of other Targ stillbirths - was it Maegor whose Essosi lover poisoned his wives' children in the womb? I can't recall now and my internet connection is too bad to use the search site tonight.... but anyway, I took that as further evidence of magical tampering, alongside those years of decay....

 

 

I think you're right about Maegor. Do you think she was trying to transfer the soul of the baby into a dragon? Or that maybe she succeeded in doing so? 

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12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think you're right about Maegor. Do you think she was trying to transfer the soul of the baby into a dragon? Or that maybe she succeeded in doing so? 

No, I don't think so, I believe it was out and out murder.

HOWEVER, there is one angle I think we've all overlooked here and it just dropped in my lap all unformed and vague....

We forget that the eggs were showing signs of quickening (Dany felt 'warmth' etc) long before this episode. If the dragons were already stirring, who's to say they weren't already playing a part in what was happening? There was one scene where Dany felt baby and dragon reaching for each other - aaaghh, I need to do a re-read now, as I can't remember how the timing goes. So, what I'm groping for is not so much MMD (or anyone) trying to get Rhaego's soul into a dragon, might it have been a dragon trying to get born somehow, ANYHOW, in desperation?

 

ETA: maybe Dany wasn't finding her 'dragonlore' in her blood, but some sort of communion (telepathy, whatever...) with the dragons. Could they have been waking from stone, and guiding HER?

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