New information on the historical Starks

[The hairy bear]

It's very reasonable to assume that Edric's sons were passed because it was understood that the North needed a grown man to face the turbulent times they were living. Jonnel losing an eye, Edric's early death, Barth being slain fighting the Skaagosi...

However, there's also the possibility that Cregard and Torrhen (Edric's sons) predeceased Jonnel. If that was the case, it would an interesting story to hear about the Umber's take on the matter: they would have been passed not once by twice.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's very reasonable to assume that Edric's sons were passed because it was understood that the North needed a grown man to face the turbulent times they were living. Jonnel losing an eye, Edric's early death, Barth being slain fighting the Skaagosi...

Well, as long as we don't know how Jonnel lost his eye or how he and Edric died this is just idle speculation.

And one should keep in mind that Artos the Implaceable would have most likely be better suited to rule Winterfell than young Edwyle ... but he did not usurp his nephew's place. Thus there is actually no reason why Barthogan and Brandon shouldn't have been to rule the North as regent until Torrhen or Cregard came of age.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

However, there's also the possibility that Cregard and Torrhen (Edric's sons) predeceased Jonnel. If that was the case, it would an interesting story to hear about the Umber's take on the matter: they would have been passed not once by twice.

If Torrhen and Cregard predeceased Jonnel all bets are off, of course, but that would be a boring story. I don't see how the Umbers were passed at all in this context. Serena didn't have any children by her first husband, Jon Umber. It was Edric's blood that was passed over, not Jon's. And while Lord Osric Umber eventually married Arrana Stark, neither her marriage nor the marriage of her sister Aregelle to Lord Robard Cerwyn likely had happened when Barthogan Stark took over Winterfell - it is very unlikely that Serena's twins were still children and their sisters already grown and married women.

Not to mention that as girls neither Aregelle nor Arrana would have been seriously considered as Ruling Ladies of Winterfell.

The problematic issue is that Edric Stark's sons were passed over.

[Aeryn Targaryen]

Thank you @Lord Varys for reply. It was really helpful. It seems that Rickon's death really messed up a lot of things. 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The problematic issue is that Edric Stark's sons were passed over.

Yes, that's the most problematic thing; theoretically, regency was possible. But maybe some Starks had a some kind of bad experience with Bennard - Cregan thing. Maybe in 4th Dunk's novella it will be explained (and honestly, I'm waiting for this the most). And Edric had to die after fathering his second daughter, not earlier (if I understood correctly).

Moreover, Stark's were dying fairly quickly at that time...

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Lord Varys What do you think of Cregan's four daughters by Alysanne Blackwood ? Unless they were married off outside of the North or died early, they could have a role to play in Cregan's inheritance. What role do you see them have ? I'm guessing they could have been married to some powerful lords or heirs of the North (Bolton, Hornwood, Dustin, ...) and therefore complicating the Stark-Manderly-Umber dynamic we are already aware of during this period.

I suppose the existence of the four sisters creates an age gap between Rickon and his half-brothers and makes the possibility of a love match between Sansa and Jonnel more plausible. But even if it's the case, I expect them to be more involved than that.

Their names are quite interesting too:

* Sarra Stark: Possibly named after her bastard aunt, Sara Snow.

* Alys Stark: Probably named after her mother, Alysanne Blackwood.

* Raya Stark: Her name is close to "Arya", I'm guessing GRRM made her either similar or the total opposite of Arya.

* Mariah Stark: Apart from Myriah Martell (who was once called Mariah), I don't see any resemblance to a character we already know.

 

As the only daughter of his third marriage and a Stark on both sides, Lyanna Stark, stands out. I have no idea what GRRM has in my mind for her, however.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

Thank you @Lord Varys for reply. It was really helpful. It seems that Rickon's death really messed up a lot of things. 

Sure, no problem. And thanks for keeping poor Aeryn alive - if George wanted to erase a Targaryen from existence he should gone with Valerion. That was the stupid name, not Aeryn.

4 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

Yes, that's the most problematic thing; theoretically, regency was possible. But maybe some Starks had a some kind of bad experience with Bennard - Cregan thing.

That is possible, but we have to keep in mind that we have no clue how old Lynara's sons were when Cregan died. Were they already adults? Did Jonnel take over without a regent? We don't know. Chances are that he was much older than Serena's twins, of course, but not necessarily a man grown.

And for Jonnel - we have no idea how long he ruled or whether he died a violent or natural death. There was some trouble in the North but hardly something of the sort that would necessitate that Winterfell needed an adult lord at all cost since there were plenty of Stark men around who could act in the name of their lordly nephew.

The Skagos Rebellion only took place during Barthogan's tenure as lord, it seems, not during Jonnel's.

4 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

Maybe in 4th Dunk's novella it will be explained (and honestly, I'm waiting for this the most). And Edric had to die after fathering his second daughter, not earlier (if I understood correctly).

I actually expect that George came up with the idea for the She-Wolves story when he introduced all those in-laws of Lady Webber in TSS. He likely thought, 'hey, what about story where Winterfell is full with a lot of Stark widows?'

If Serena's children and grandchildren - or she herself - does show up in that story it is likely going to be touched upon. If the conflict there would not involve them at all the story might not delve deeply in those issues. The average Dunk & Egg story gives some historical details but they are not info dumps, unfortunately.

26 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Lord Varys What do you think of Cregan's four daughters by Alysanne Blackwood ? Unless they were married off outside of the North or died early, they could have a role to play in Cregan's inheritance. What role do you see them have ? I'm guessing they could have been married to some powerful lords or heirs of the North (Bolton, Hornwood, Dustin, ...) and therefore complicating the Stark-Manderly-Umber dynamic we are already aware of during this period.

Well, what we know from @Ran implies they did marry. In fact, I think he explicitly mentioned that in relation to those four that George grew tired of inventing names all the time, meaning that despite there being no husbands for them on the tree doesn't mean they did not marry.

I'd expect, though, that by the time of Jonnel's succession they would be living at the castles/keeps of their lord husbands, already raising children of their own, unless something happened that caused their return to Winterfell.

Of course, one of them couldn't have married at all, or she could have returned to Winterfell for some reason.

But I'd honestly expect that Lynara's family - her Stark father, her Stark brothers and uncles - who may have come with her to Winterfell (assuming they didn't always live there - unlikely if she is from a cadet branch that branched off back in the early 1st century) played a more prominent role in the succession of Cregan and Jonnel than any of Black Aly's daughters and their familes.

26 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I suppose the existence of the four sisters creates an age gap between Rickon and his half-brothers and makes the possibility of a love match between Sansa and Jonnel more plausible. But even if it's the case, I expect them to be more involved than that.

Sure, the idea is just that we should not interpret this necessarily as a strictly political marriage or some kind of weird power play. On the political level there could be the 'unification of the branches' reasoning but on the personal also a level of affection.

I doubt the uncles were told to marry their nieces just for political reasons. It wouldn't have been that difficult to push aside women in any case. The Starks apparently had done that for 8,000 years. Thus I think one could also interpret that as the parties involved trying to allow Rickon's daughters to share in the rule of their uncles.

26 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Their names are quite interesting too:

* Sarra Stark: Possibly named after her bastard aunt, Sara Snow.

* Alys Stark: Probably named after her mother, Alysanne Blackwood.

* Raya Stark: Her name is close to "Arya", I'm guessing GRRM made her either similar or the total opposite of Arya.

* Mariah Stark: Apart from Myriah Martell (who was once called Mariah), I don't see any resemblance to a character we already know.

If you look in the MUSH appendices there is a 'Marian Stark (b. 140)' listed as wife of Seth Blackwood, eldest son and heir of Lord Benjicot Blackwood. [Seth also happens to have a youngest sister named Melissa, born 158 AC, who most likely is supposed to be Aegon's Missy.]

Considering those blasted typos in the family trees I always wondered said Marian wasn't the Mariah from the family tree? That would be a much better name than Mariah, who is now finally back to Myriah, anyway. I think I asked @Ran about that, once, but did never get a reply ;-). The year of birth would fit for the youngest daughter of Cregan and Aly, considering they married back in 132 AC.

If that were canon - or the road canon would take in future books - the chances that Seth would turn out the be the grandfather or great-grandfather of Betha and Melantha is a rather interesting prospect considering Betha is the ancestor of the Targaryens in the main book series.

One always imagined that Dany would have Stark ancestors among her Blackwood ancestors, but this kind of thing could enable us to date the latest such infusion to the Seth-Marian/Mariah match.

That is all I can offer on Aly's daughters, I'm afraid.

26 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

As the only daughter of his third marriage and a Stark on both sides, Lyanna Stark, stands out. I have no idea what GRRM has in my mind for her, however.

See above. She could have considerable influence simply by the weight of being a Stark herself - and due to the support her male kin might give her.

In fact, depending how senile/ailing Cregan got in old age she and her family may have been running the show long before her sons finally took over. And that certainly could have contributed to no small degree to what transpired in Winterfell.

But it doesn't help us explain why Lynara would want her grandsons by Edric be pushed aside.

I think I once put forth the idea that Edric might have ended up in disgrace for some reason - that is something that could have taken down his wife and sons, too. If we keep in mind that Barth Blacksword died during the reign of Daeron II in the Skagos Rebellion - and we imagine this happened around 200 AC or so - then Edric may have fought on the wrong side in the Blackfyre Rebellion. He could have taken up his wife's cause, using the larger rebellion as a pretext to overthrow his brother Jonnel and install either Serena or their eldest son as the rightful Lord of Winterfell.

But that is just a wild guess.

[Lord Varys]

As for Brandon the Boastful:

I guess we can imagine that he could have been one of the many children that were raised as wards in KL and on Dragonstone. As a grandson of Torrhen Stark - and possibly a son of a younger son of Torrhen's (if Roderick Stark was indeed a son rather than a grandson of Torrhen's) - he wouldn't have been an heir of Torrhen or Brandon the Boisterous.

This could perhaps best explain his 'expert judgment' when he compared young Jaehaerys I to Aegon I - assuming we want to see it as an expert judgment (which I think we should).

This would also mean that the Starks established better contacts with the Targaryens when Brandon the Boastful finally took over. Which would make sense in light of the FaB stuff since there the issues between Alaric and Jaehaerys I have nothing to do with Torrhen kneeling or his sons views on stuff but strictly with Walton's death.

[Aeryn Targaryen]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, what we know from @Ran implies they did marry. In fact, I think he explicitly mentioned that in relation to those four that George grew tired of inventing names all the time, meaning that despite there being no husbands for them on the tree doesn't mean they did not marry.

I didn't know about that. When I was reading TWOIAF (2014) I was surprised that all of Alysanne's daughters were unmarried. If GRRM will add their husbands in the future, it could be confirmation of Jon's Snow words to Stannis (about Stark's blood in the North). Maybe in the future we will know about Arsa and Lyanna's partners? 

On 3/24/2020 at 1:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

I think I once put forth the idea that Edric might have ended up in disgrace for some reason - that is something that could have taken down his wife and sons, too. If we keep in mind that Barth Blacksword died during the reign of Daeron II in the Skagos Rebellion - and we imagine this happened around 200 AC or so - then Edric may have fought on the wrong side in the Blackfyre Rebellion. He could have taken up his wife's cause, using the larger rebellion as a pretext to overthrow his brother Jonnel and install either Serena or their eldest son as the rightful Lord of Winterfell.

But that is just a wild guess.

This is a very good idea We had something similar with Jorah's slavery thing (it was shameful for the Mormonts, so there is a possibily in the North to shame whole family). 

And about Brandon's Snow ancestry - maybe he was conceived during first night? It could explain his surname, but I have no idea how it fits with Bran's vision (if he was that young men with 3 spears). 

There is also one issue: Did Torrhen have any brothers or cousins, except Brandon Snow? 

[Lord Varys]

49 minutes ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

I didn't know about that. When I was reading TWOIAF (2014) I was surprised that all of Alysanne's daughters were unmarried. If GRRM will add their husbands in the future, it could be confirmation of Jon's Snow words to Stannis (about Stark's blood in the North). Maybe in the future we will know about Arsa and Lyanna's partners?

Sure, I think the default take should be that most Stark daughters mentioned in the tree were married or at least betrothed. Doesn't mean all of them would have had offspring, though.

Black Aly's daughters strike me as daughters who may not have been married to Northern lords. Aly did have ties down south, so one could expect them to have married Blackwoods (like is indicated with this Seth-Marian setting from the MUSH I gave above), but also the Tullys, the Freys, the Vances, etc.

49 minutes ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

This is a very good idea We had something similar with Jorah's slavery thing (it was shameful for the Mormonts, so there is a possibily in the North to shame whole family).

Not to mention that this would have happened a long time ago, so there is no reason for us to believe we would have to know about that.

49 minutes ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

There is also one issue: Did Torrhen have any brothers or cousins, except Brandon Snow? 

One assumes he had a larger family, but we don't know. Brandon Snow could be pretty much anything, the son of a mistress, of a serving girl Torrhen's father fucked once a twice, a son from a First Night, a whore, etc. The only thing we can assume is that the boy must have been significant for the father or brother or else he wouldn't have been allowed at Winterfell nor had a place in Torrhen's councils. Great lords and kings can choose themselves whether they acknowledge children as their bastards.

[Aeryn Targaryen]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes he had a larger family, but we don't know. Brandon Snow could be pretty much anything, the son of a mistress, of a serving girl Torrhen's father fucked once a twice, a son from a First Night, a whore, etc. The only thing we can assume is that the boy must have been significant for the father or brother or else he wouldn't have been allowed at Winterfell nor had a place in Torrhen's councils. Great lords and kings can choose themselves whether they acknowledge children as their bastards.

I always thought he was (somehow) a Stark - I didn't consider other options. Thanks to this thread I know more than I expected

As for the historical Starks, when I heard that there were some relatives in Barrowton and White Harbour, I checked the family tree to see who could start these branches. Initially, I thought that they were descendants of Artos. But now it may turn out that some relatives settled even two hundred years before the birth of Artos. If that were the case, then those relatives from the Vale (mentioned by Catelyn) would be more closely related to the main Starks than some cousins (with Stark surname) whose ancestors settled decades or hundreds of years ago (but these are just my loose thoughts ). 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

I always thought he was (somehow) a Stark - I didn't consider other options. Thanks to this thread I know more than I expected

As for the historical Starks, when I heard that there were some relatives in Barrowton and White Harbour, I checked the family tree to see who could start these branches. Initially, I thought that they were descendants of Artos. But now it may turn out that some relatives settled even two hundred years before the birth of Artos. If that were the case, then those relatives from the Vale (mentioned by Catelyn) would be more closely related to the main Starks than some cousins (with Stark surname) whose ancestors settled decades or hundreds of years ago (but these are just my loose thoughts ). 

To be sure, to my knowledge there is no canonical confirmation of any Barrowton or White Harbor Starks so far. The Gulltown Arryns were first mentioned in AFfC and featured prominently in FaB, but those lesser branches of House Stark have yet to be introduced.

They might show up in TWoW (although I think it is more likely we are going to meet some of Jocelyn Stark's Vale descendants in Sansa's Vale plot) but I'm not holding my breath. After all, if such Starks were prestigious enough to warrant mentioning they would have shown up already. We visited both Barrowton and White Harbor in ADwD. And the name Stark certainly would have triggered the interest of the Boltons and the Manderlys, especially after the Red Wedding. In fact, some such people would have even come forth to try to claim Winterfell themselves considering they still had the Stark name while there are no other known lordly branches through the male line left.

Even if they existed there is not really a reason to assume such branches split from the main line after the Conquest. The Starks are a very old family, and there must have been literally dozens of cadet branches throughout the centuries and millennia, some of which might still be around but sunken down to merchant and peasant level. There could be some Stark peasant in the North who is a 100th cousin of Robb, being descended in unbroken male line from a younger son of Brandon the Builder ;-).

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To be sure, to my knowledge there is no canonical confirmation of any Barrowton or White Harbor Starks so far.

I think @Aeryn Targaryen is thinking about this SSM from 2003.

It's interesting to note that back then George did not want to create an aunt or uncle for Ned. But as we know from the Stark lineage in TWOIAF, he changed his mind by 2014 and created Branda Stark.

Branda's marriage to a Stormlander is a bit weird. It could have been a love match, something to do with her father's wanderings or Lord Rickard's southron ambition (probably not because I don't think he would marry his sister-in-law to a mere landed knight). Or maybe George just wanted to play with the idea of a proto-Lyanna Stark/Robert Baratheon marriage.

[The Grey Wolf]

@Thomaerys Velaryon

Or maybe Branda's match was arranged after Lyonel Baratheon's rebellion to sweeten the deal given that the Starks and Targs were in-laws? (Rogers could be an Old Gods-following house a la Ser Jorah Mormont.)

Also, while I'm not holding my breath given GRRM's dismissiveness towards Lyarrra Stark it would be great to meet Branda in TWOW since she'd only be in her sixties.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Or maybe Branda's match was arranged after Lyonel Baratheon's rebellion

Did not think of that, but the timeline could work.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, while I'm not holding my breath given GRRM's dismissiveness towards Lyarrra Stark it would be great to meet Branda in TWOW since she'd only be in her sixties.

We already have Arianne Martell meeting an old Lady from the Stormlands in the person of Lady Mary Mertyns, I doubt George will add another one.

[The Grey Wolf]

@Thomaerys Velaryon

That's why I'm not getting my hopes up. Still, GRRM could surprise us and wouldn't that be nice?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

37 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Still, GRRM could surprise us and wouldn't that be nice?

Sure why not, although his surprises can be bloody...

[The Grey Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Sure why not, although his surprises can be bloody...

Lol. Now I'm imagining Arianne arriving at Amberly to find a long-faced harridan with grey eyes holding a sellsword's severed head in her lap.

In all seriousness, we should be more worried about Lord Seaworth's kinfolk.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

In all seriousness, we should be more worried about Lord Seaworth's kinfolk.

Yes we should. With the idea floating around of Stannis Baratheon faking his own death and spreading the tale to gain access to Winterfell somehow, there is a good chance of having a Davos chapter after he comes back to White Harbor wih Rickon where he will be face with a choice: staying in the North or going home. Does he believe Stannis is really dead ? Does he think the tales of mercenaries invading the Stormlands are true ? Does he consider having done what he could for his king but now he should do what he can for his family ?

GRRM always brings up William Faulkner's quote "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself". Well this is a prime example right here. Davos writting letters to his family while a prisoner at the Wolf's Den in ADWD can be seen as a foreshadowing for him returning south.

We already have a ton of POVs in the North: Asha, Theon, Melisandre, Jon (once resurrected). Plus there always is the possibility of Bran via weirwood visions and Sansa if she shows up with a Vale army at the end of Winds. I can see GRRM using Davos's early chapter for the Rickon mission and then having him showing up in the south at the end of TWOW (just like Samwell chapters in AFFC started at the Wall and ended in Oldtown).

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I think @Aeryn Targaryen is thinking about this SSM from 2003.

It's interesting to note that back then George did not want to create an aunt or uncle for Ned. But as we know from the Stark lineage in TWOIAF, he changed his mind by 2014 and created Branda Stark.

I think that issue might be due to the fact that George may not have known back then that Ned's mother was a Stark, too. Or if he did - that he didn't yet know how shit fit into the family tree.

I also expect that this weird Rickard-Lyarra thing was partly an outgrowth of the Stark plot in the books - notably that the family of Ned's mother (who is clearly a complete nonentity in AGoT and only entered George's mind when he was first asked about her) is completely absent from the plot. But if she was from a different Northern house she would be there and Ned's first cousins on his mother's side would likely play prominent roles at Winterfell or at least later on when the war began. A brother or nephew of Ned's mother could be a powerful mentor to Robb, just like the Blackfish later is.

15 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Branda's marriage to a Stormlander is a bit weird. It could have been a love match, something to do with her father's wanderings or Lord Rickard's southron ambition (probably not because I don't think he would marry his sister-in-law to a mere landed knight). Or maybe George just wanted to play with the idea of a proto-Lyanna Stark/Robert Baratheon marriage.

I'd expect it was something that grew out of the wanderings - the Harrold fellow could be a squire he picked while he was travelling the Stormlands (assuming he ever went there) or they could have befriended each other while fighting with the Second Sons.

We shouldn't jump to the conclusion Ser Harrold was the landed knight of Amberly - he may have been just a knight of House Rogers. If that was the case he and Branda could have lived and died at Winterfell, with Harrold serving Lords Willam and Edwyle and Rickard as sworn sword/retainer.

The idea that an insignificant Stark girl marries an insignificant Stormlander knight to appease the Lord of Storm's End is very far-fetched in my opinion. If Egg wanted to sweeten the deal for Lyonel he would have thrown another Targaryen at Lyonel (Vaella the Simple, Daenora, little Maegor, or one of the children of his sisters - or even a widowed sister if they were still around) or he would have used one of his actual in-laws - a Blackwood - rather than an in-law of his in-laws.

If we went down that rabbit hole then the Tyrells and the Florents would be the same family considering Mace's father-in-law Leyton Hightower is married to Alester Florent's daughter Rhea.

I'd expect Branda to be long dead. If she was still alive and in the Stormlands she and her family would have places of high honor at Robert's court. And they would have come visit little Ned when he became Hand of the King, etc.

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Yes we should. With the idea floating around of Stannis Baratheon faking his own death and spreading the tale to gain access to Winterfell somehow, there is a good chance of having a Davos chapter after he comes back to White Harbor wih Rickon where he will be face with a choice: staying in the North or going home. Does he believe Stannis is really dead ? Does he think the tales of mercenaries invading the Stormlands are true ? Does he consider having done what he could for his king but now he should do what he can for his family ?

That strikes me as very unlikely timeline-wise. Stannis will either be truly dead or alive for the time being once Davos comes back from Skagos. Because there is no chance at all George skips Davos's trip to Skagos. We'll get his journey and his adventures and back-and-forth there until he finds a trace of Rickon (he is not going to magically arrive at the right spot and magically meet the right people when he lands there), and then there will be complications if and when he finds him, etc. And thereafter they might not go back to White Harbor but rather to the Wall because they have news from there ... it is much closer to Skagos than White Harbor.

We also already learned Davos' priorities when he wrote his letters in ADwD. If he thought Stannis was dead he would do his best to protect Shireen from Melisandre and Selyse and Axell.

3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

GRRM always brings up William Faulkner's quote "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself". Well this is a prime example right here. Davos writting letters to his family while a prisoner at the Wolf's Den in ADWD can be seen as a foreshadowing for him returning south.

I actually thought Davos would go visit his family back when George told us before ADwD came out that he was writing a chapter set in the Stormlands on Cape Wrath.

Marya and Stannis and Steffon might still show up finally in TWoW - with the Golden Company being there and stuff. But I very much doubt they will be in any danger while Davos Seaworth remains as insignificant a character on the grand scale of things as he is now. Especially while people still think he is dead.

And whether Jon is going to remain a POV after his resurrection is, at this point, an open question ... as is when exactly in TWoW that is going to take place.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We shouldn't jump to the conclusion Ser Harrold was the landed knight of Amberly - he may have been just a knight of House Rogers. If that was the case he and Branda could have lived and died at Winterfell, with Harrold serving Lords Willam and Edwyle and Rickard as sworn sword/retainer.

I like that idea, maybe Ser Harrold is the one who knighted young Rodrik Cassel.

I've always find weird that we never learned the backstory behind his knigthood (unlike other northmen knights like Jorah Mormont and Bartimus). Rodrik might not be a main character but he is important in AGOT and ACOK, and his knighthood stands out in Winterfell (at least to me).

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I like that idea, maybe Ser Harrold is the one who knighted young Rodrik Cassel.

I've always find weird that we never learned the backstory behind his knigthood (unlike other northmen knights like Jorah Mormont and Bartimus). Rodrik might not be a main character but he is important in AGOT and ACOK, and his knighthood stands out in Winterfell (at least to me).

I guess George didn't really think much about this knightly stuff when he wrote the first chapters. One imagines Jorah really was an Andal when Drogo first called him that, and the title would also have been the natural way to refer to Ser Rodrik.

The idea that the Harrold chap could be the guy who knighted Rodrik could be interesting - in fact, now that one thinks of it he could have been a previous master-at-arms at Winterfell.

Although there may have been many Sers over the years in Winterfell - not just after the Conquest but also before, by means of White Harbor. The Starks certainly would want competent warriors to train their sons at arms...