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The Wondering Wolf

New information on the historical Starks

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Elio revealed some really interesting stuff about Stark history. This thread is meant to bundle the information and can be used for discussion.

Asked for the relation of Cregan and Lynara Stark, Elio replied:

Lynara was a cousin by way of a younger son of Lord Brandon.

Then he clarified:

Also, a correction that I didn't realize was an issue, but obviously is: you guys didn't know that the Lord Brandon whom Lynara is descended from is _another_ Brandon, not the one who is father of Walton and Alaric. George distinguishes them as Brandon the Boisterous (from whom Lynara is descended via a younger son of his) and Brandon the Boastful (Walton's and Alaric's father). The boisterous one succeeded Torrhen and was almost certainly a son of his, while Brandon the Boastful succeeded a Lord Roderick Stark. 

One the order of Serena Stark's (with Jon Umber and Edric Stark) and Jonnel Stark's (with Robyn Ryswell and Sansa Stark) marriages, he said:

Serena married Umber and then her uncle.

Jonnel married his niece and then Robyn Ryswell.

Regarding Jon Umber's status:

Umber was Lord of Last Hearth.

Asked, if Brandon fathered Lonnel before or after his marriage, he said:

Before.

On the status of Osric Umber and Robard Cerwyn:

Osric and Robard are described as "loyal lords". 

On the order of Willam Stark's marriages (with Lyanna Glover and Melantha Blackwood):

Glover first, Blackwood second.

On the status of Harrold Rogers:

Harrold was a knight, not a lord.

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I think the timeline could go like this:

Torrhen (born ~49 AC)

   Brandon the Boisterous (born ~31 AC)

      Roderick (born ~13 BC)

         Brandon the Boastful (born ~5 AC)

            Walton (born ~23 AC)

            Alaric (born ~24 AC)

               two Sons (born ~42 AC)

                  Edric (born ~60 AC)

Brandon the Boisterous had at least two sons. A younger one started a male branch that was still around a century later (since that is where Lynara descended from). So the main line must have continued through an older son, who might have been that Lord Roderick. Now Roderick's successor Brandon the Boastful could have been a son or a brother od Roderick, but in the end he must have been a descendent of the Boisterous.

 

My thoughts on the Umbers:

Apparently GRRM has a small family tree for the Umbers. Since Mors was born no later than 236 AC, I think we can place the birth of Greatjon's father around 230 and Hoarfrost's around 210 AC. Hoarfrost's father might have been Lord Harmond (born around 190 AC) and that would fit with Arrana Stark and Osric Umber being Harmond's parents. Not sure about the relation of Osric and Serena's Jon Umber, though. Jon did not have any children with Serena or after her (since he died first). Maybe he had a wife before and Osric was a grandson, or Osric was a nephew by a younger brother. But Jon could have been the lord in charge during the great mêlée in 170 AC.

 

@Thomaerys Velaryon

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For now I'm going with Osric as being Jon's nephew, thus making the couple Arrana and Osric first cousin.

Could you explain how they would be first cousins in this case? Somehow I do not get it.

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I don't know what stories GRRM has in my mind for the latter part of Cregan's rule and the troublesome rule of his sons after him, but with the information we have it sure looks fun. I'm particularly interested to see the Stark-Manderly-Umber dynamics play out.

Same here.

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Lord Torrhen Manderly marrying his daughter? Jeyne to Cregan's heir, Rickon Stark. This is interesting that both Houses had a prospect of marriage with House Targaryen, but none happened in the end. Then important members of these Houses end up marrying each other. Also, Mushroom is most likely still at the Merman's Court at the moment of Rickon and Jeyne's betrothal, so I'm expecting other fun sides stories from him in the future.

Gyldayn stated that Mushroom leaves the story after the end of the Regnancy, so not sure about that.

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Rickon Stark dying at Sunspear in the Conquest of Dorne. As Rickon's eldest daughter, Serena Stark should have inherited Winterfell after Cregan's death but instead it passed to Jonnel Stark. So either Cregan outlived his granddaughter and her children were deemed to young to rule and Jonnel took over instead or Cregan did not want a woman to succeed him (which might explain the two weird unle-niece marriages). Either way, it sounds like a fun read. Osric Umber and Robard Cerwyn the so called "loyal lords" were most likely supporter of Serena/Serena's children's claim to Winterfell.

Since there has never been a ruling Lady of Winterfell, I think Cregan wanted one of his sons to inherit. I believe Serena is still around during the struggles of the She-Wolves. Sher was passed twice, and her children, as well, so she would have an interesting story. The wording on the loyal lords seems noticeble to me. The are supposed to be loyal, so why highlighting that point? Maybe the played a huge part in crushing the Skagosi rebellion and were rewarded in the aftermath.

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Speaking of mêlée, the great mêlée at the Last Hearth of 170 AC was probably a big deal. I'm guessing either Lord Jon or Lord Osric Umber hosted it. I'm wondering if Barthogan "Blacksword" Stark didn't earn his nickname by killing people during this event, maybe he "accidentally" killed his older brother Edric and therefore set himself as Jonnel's heir.

I think 170 AC is a bit early for Edric to die.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Could you explain how they would be first cousins in this case? Somehow I do not get it. 

Sorry I typed too fast, I thought Arrana was Jon's daughter for some reason instead of Edric's. My bad.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I believe Serena is still around during the struggles of the She-Wolves.

Who do you think the five "She-Wolves" were ? We only have five women who fits the description of "widows of former Lord Starks".

* Lady Lorra Royce, soon to be widow of the dying Lord Beron.

* Lady Myriame Manderly, widow of Lord Rodwell, Beron's sister-in-law.

* Lady Alys Karstark, widow of Lord Brandon Stark, Beron's mother.

* Lady Robyn Ryswell, widow and second wife of Lord Jonnel, Beron's aunt by marriage.

* Lady Lynara Stark, widow and third wife of Lord Cregan, Beron's grandmother.

Do you think George would put Serena into the mix on top of these five Ladies ? It's possible but it seems excessive, plus she wasn't married to a Lord of Winterfell. I rather see her as dead by this time, but her actions during her life having a big impact on the story of the She-Wolves.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The wording on the loyal lords seems noticeble to me. The are supposed to be loyal, so why highlighting that point? Maybe the played a huge part in crushing the Skagosi rebellion and were rewarded in the aftermath. 

The Skagosi rebellion was a big deal for the North. It may have overlapped with the First Blackfyre Rebellion (196 AC), which might explain the non-involvement of the North (as far as we know) during this conflict. We know it lasted years during the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen but I'd like to know when precisely.

@Ran Any information from GRRM on that subject ? If we had these dates, it would give us a more accurate year of death for Lord Barthogan Stark. This would be a BIG help to calculate more accurately the births and deaths of many Starks from this period.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think 170 AC is a bit early for Edric to die.

Looking back at the timeline, you're probably right.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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31 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Any information from GRRM on that subject ?

See above. There's no dates in the email regarding things like that.

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15 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Who do you think the five "She-Wolves" were ? We only have five women who fits the description of "widows of former Lord Starks".

If actually all of them were widows, I would go with your guesses. I am just not sure about the nature of the struggle then. Beron had a lot of sons, even if there had been something wrong with his firstborn Donnor, Willam could have taken the place. So why a struggle at all? I guess because there was an elder branch that made a claim. But in this case one of the She-Wolves should support said claim, and I'm not sure one of the widows would do that. Unless Lynara wanted Edric's children to inherit. And why would Myriame Manderly or Robyn Ryswell have an own agenda at all? They had no children and were not Starks by birth. 

Besides, Serena would be around 65, Lynara easily around 85 years old. Not impossible, but in my opinion Serena is more likely to fit the 'Stark by birth' and 'grandmother' part (although she was no widow of a former lord indeed).

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Bummer. I thought this might be interesting information, rather than trivia about correct birth and death dates.

Ah well. Maybe next time.

Next time I'm having lunch with GRRM and he tells me something you might find interesting, you will be the first one I tag. B)

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28 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

If actually all of them were widows, I would go with your guesses. I am just not sure about the nature of the struggle then. Beron had a lot of sons, even if there had been something wrong with his firstborn Donnor, Willam could have taken the place. So why a struggle at all? I guess because there was an elder branch that made a claim. But in this case one of the She-Wolves should support said claim, and I'm not sure one of the widows would do that. Unless Lynara wanted Edric's children to inherit. And why would Myriame Manderly or Robyn Ryswell have an own agenda at all? They had no children and were not Starks by birth. 

Besides, Serena would be around 65, Lynara easily around 85 years old. Not impossible, but in my opinion Serena is more likely to fit the 'Stark by birth' and 'grandmother' part (although she was no widow of a former lord indeed).

Next time I'm having lunch with GRRM and he tells me something you might find interesting, you will be the first one I tag. B)

Haha. Point taken. I got too excited when I saw the title.

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Guys, the setup for the 'She-Wolves' story was never that they were to be all Stark widows - or rather: there is one quote describing the planned story as being one about Stark widows and another, if I remember correctly, where there is a more general talk about Stark women.

In fact, it seems the quote about the five widows comes from Boskone 2006 and is just a report, where George on his NAB characterized the 'She Wolves' story this way in 2014:

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The unfinished novella was indeed set in Winterfell, and involved a group of formidable Stark wives, widows, mothers, and grandmothers that I dubbed 'the She-Wolves,' but "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" was never meant to be more than a working title.  The final title, when I finish the story, will be something different.  There's also another Dunk & Egg novella that I've got roughed out in my head, with the working title "The Village Hero."  That one takes place in the Riverlands.   There's no telling when I will have time to finish either of these, or which one I will write first.  I don't expect I will know more until I've delivered THE WINDS OF WINTER.

Thus no need to limit ourselves to proper widows of proper Lords of Winterfell. In fact, I'd even dare to say that most of such widows wouldn't even qualify as 'she-wolves' considering they are only Starks by marriage - although some might still be very ferocious.

It would be a pity/missed opportunity to not also include Stark sisters and daughters - unmarried, married, widowed, etc. - who either always lived at Winterfell with their children or who returned home for one reason or another after their husbands died.

And considering George's usual sense of complexity I expect this story to include both a struggle for the regency during Lord Beron's death and, perhaps, for the minority of young Lord Donnor (assuming the boy wasn't already a man grown when his father died - considering the many children Beron and Lorra had this is not out of the question even if their last child was a posthumous child) who could be a lackwit or cripple or severely sick himself, meaning he might be dependent on a regent for his entire rule as lord (this would be the story of Lorra Royce who, as a follower of the Seven and a 'foreigner' from the Vale, will face severe challenges from the true Northwomen and -men at Winterfell presuming they as true Starks/Northerners should rule Winterfell - this is where Egg as a royal arbiter could come into play) and then there could be another, more serious threat, meaning Serena Stark and/or some of her descendants trying to rectify ancient wrongs and oust Brandon's branch in favor of her own branch - which would be Rickon's and Edric's, the elder branch.

This latter conflict could also involve military issue - an attempted violent coup, secretly opened postern gates, fighting and murders within the walls of Winterfell, and put Dunk & Egg themselves in severe danger - which a mere regency dispute likely would not cause. That would just be about whether Lorra Royce is pushed aside in favor of Alys Karstark or, perhaps, Lynara Stark (or perhaps in favor of some other determined/powerful Stark widow) and forced to return to the Vale.

But to make the story a tantalizing little 'Dance of the Wolves' the whole Serena plot we speculate about seems to be necessary.

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I have used the wiki to create the family tree for the Stark during the first century after the Conquest: https://imgur.com/a/0PnaOdj

Obviously Lynara should be lower on the tree, but I just put her there to show her connection to Lord Brandon.

@The Wondering Wolf I think having Roderick and Brandon the Boastful as the sons of Brandon the Boisterous fits best timeline-wise.

I've also been wondering about Torrhen's daughter. There is a slight change in between TWOIAF and Fire & Blood that might hint at Torrhen having several daughters.

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"That Torrhen Stark's daughter was wed to the young and ill-fated Lord of the Vale is wellknown; it was one of the many peace-binding marriages forged by Rhaenys." - TWOIAF, The North: The Lords of Winterfell

"It was no great surprise when Queen Rhaenys Targaryen arranged the betrothal of young Ronnel to the daughter of Torrhen Stark, for that was but one of the many such marriages she made in the name of peace." - TWOIAF, The Vale: House Arryn

"Through their efforts, young Ronnel Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, took a daughter of Torrhen Stark of Winterfell to wed, whilst Loren Lannister’s eldest son, heir to Casterly Rock, married a Redwyne girl from the Arbor." - Fire & Blood, Three Heads Had the Dragon - Governance Under King Aegon I

Why change from "the daughter" to "a daughter" ? Maybe I'm just looking too much into it.

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I must say there seems to be an unpleasant tendency on George's part to squeeze too many people in.

We do have Tyrion's account that Loren Lannister only married and fathered a son and heir after the Field of Fire - which would make this statement from FaB true in a broader sense

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Through their efforts, young Ronnel Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, took a daughter of Torrhen Stark of Winterfell to wed, whilst Loren Lannister’s eldest son, heir to Casterly Rock, married a Redwyne girl from the Arbor.

namely, that Rhaenys and Visenya only arranged a betrothal Loren's eldest son with Rhaenys being long dead when the wedding took place.

The age of Lord Lyman's bastard son Tyler Hill in the 40s also indicates that Lord Lyman may have to be a son of Loren Lannister rather than a grandson - unless we dismiss Tyrion's own account on his ancestry which, frankly, I don't think we should without good cause. Tyrion is an educated person, and his knowledge about the family tree of the Lannisters of Casterly Rock should be very astute.

With Torrhen's successors we face a rather vexing problem with Brandon Snow - if we assume he was the youth who made those weirwood spears in Bran's vision in ADwD. It would make him a youthful man, and that, in turn, decreases the possibility that Torrhen Stark would have had living sons and grandsons during the Conquest - and we must assume, I think, that Lord Brandon, the father of Walton and Alaric, must have already been alive by that time, since the impression seems to be he was a man of advanced age in 49 AC (at least around fifty I'd say). After all, Torrhen's father (or mother) must have been around to conceive Brandon Snow.

I'd have preferred it if we could imagine Torrhen Stark as a middle-aged man during the Conquest - old enough to have grown-up and quarrelsome sons of his own, but not old enough to already have grandsons of his own.

We face a similar problem with the Hightowers - Manfred Hightower (I) must have been pretty old during the Conquest for him to have a grandson in Manfred (II) in the early 20s who already had a daughter in Ceryse at the time who was herself in her twenties. We can reconcile the existence of the maiden daughter Manfred offered to Aegon during the Conquest by assuming the man had more than one wife and ended up marrying a young fertile woman 15-20 years before the Conquest, but the problem comes back with the way Martyn, the son of Manfred (II), and Donnel the Delayer (who also has grandsons in the 50s) don't really fit well together.

With Torrhen's descendants we could imagine them (and Roderick) as sons of Torrhen if Brandon the Boisterous was the son of a different wife than Brandon the Boastful - and if the Boisterous had died before the Boastful was born (but that would likely force us to imagine Torrhen to not have ruled Winterfell for long after the Conquest).

Thus Brandon the Boastful as Torrhen's grandson - or even great-grandson if Roderick was the Boastful's father rather than his brother - would likely be preferred.

We do have a similar mess later in the family since we have no idea how to fit Edric and Ellard and Cregan's grandfather Benjen into the family tree. Are some of them brothers? Or are they all father and son?

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@Lord Varys All valid point.

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I must say there seems to be an unpleasant tendency on George's part to squeeze too many people in.

True that. Honestly, I think GRRM just forgot about Tyrion's comment in AGOT and nobody corrected him on that.

On itself these "little inconsistencies" are not a big deal, but they can quickly become an issue when they start to add up. If we have to find a scenario with several wives and characters having children at a really young/old age just so we can create a canon-approved family tree, then maybe it's the sign that something doesn't add up.

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8 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Lord Varys All valid point.

True that. Honestly, I think GRRM just forgot about Tyrion's comment in AGOT and nobody corrected him on that.

Possible. But there is a hint that George actually knows that he created an issue there. Keep in mind that FaB has Tyler Hill be the main Lannister man courting Queen Rhaena. That is rather odd in light of the fact that he is just a bastard and Lord Lyman does have legitimate sons of his own. But one can make sense of that if one assumes that Lyman, being the eldest or only son of Loren Lannister, never had any sons with his first wife of House Redwyne (which he may have married in the mid-10s or so), only daughters or no children at all. Tyler was then his eldest and only son - and thus his favorite - until he married Jocasta Tarbeck later in life who eventually gave him legitimate sons the eldest of which was old enough to be married by 60 AC when he fathered a son in Tymond Lannister. That could certainly work if we imagined Lyman's eldest trueborn son to be in his early teens by 50 AC.

The plan was to have a Lannister seduce/entice Queen Rhaena into discarding her unworthy Farman consort for a worthy Lannister consort, and it was likely not that difficult to conclude that a bunch of little boys couldn't do the trick - but dashing Tyler Hill might do it. But Lyman and Jocasta still kept their sons in the game as plan B.

I also personally like the idea of Lyman being a guy mentally closer to the Field of Fire and Loren Lannister than some of the other of the era - it would add much more flavor and depth to his desire to get dragons for his own house and marry into House Targaryen.

8 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

On itself these "little inconsistencies" are not a big deal, but they can quickly become an issue when they start to add up. If we have to find a scenario with several wives and characters having children at a really young/old age just so we can create a canon-approved family tree, then maybe it's the sign that something doesn't add up.

Yeah, that's the most unpleasant so far with Martyn-Donnel Hightower (where one really would have liked a sentence or two how they fit together) and with the Starks following Lord Edric.

On the other hand, there was really no need to have another generation between Torrhen Stark and Brandon, the father of Walton and Alaric. Brandon could have just been a younger son of Torrhen if George felt there needed to be another Lord of Winterfell between Torrhen and Brandon. Especially since Brandon could easily enough have been already in his sixties in 49 AC.

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On 3/20/2020 at 11:27 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I think having Roderick and Brandon the Boastful as the sons of Brandon the Boisterous fits best timeline-wise.

I think it works both ways, so no way to tell.

On 3/20/2020 at 11:27 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Why change from "the daughter" to "a daughter" ?

Not sure you can not use it interchangeably. In the end one might be the wording of Elio/Linda and the other of GRRM himself.

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On 3/20/2020 at 11:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

Thus Brandon the Boastful as Torrhen's grandson - or even great-grandson if Roderick was the Boastful's father rather than his brother - would likely be preferred.

Since the Boisterous had a younger son who started a male side branch that was still around a hundred years later, Roderick must have been an elder son of the Boisterous. Question remains if the Boastful was a son of Roderick or a brother.

If the Boastful had been of bad health, he could have been born also around 5 AC.

On 3/20/2020 at 11:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

We do have a similar mess later in the family since we have no idea how to fit Edric and Ellard and Cregan's grandfather Benjen into the family tree. Are some of them brothers? Or are they all father and son?

Cregan was born in 108 AC, so I would place Rickon' birth around 90 and Benjen' around 70 AC. Edric seems to have been born around 60 AC, so I do not think there is time for another generation between them. Maybe Edric and Ellard were sons of Alaric's firstborn and Benjen the son of his second son.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That could certainly work if we imagined Lyman's eldest trueborn son to be in his early teens by 50 AC.

Lyman had a younger son who was old enough to court Jeyne Westerling in 47 AC, so I guess Lyman's eldest son could have been born around 25 AC. So either Lyman was a second son or Jocasta a second wife.

 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

On the other hand, there was really no need to have another generation between Torrhen Stark and Brandon, the father of Walton and Alaric.

I think another generation makes sense timewise. Two might be a bit convoluted, though.

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1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Since the Boisterous had a younger son who started a male side branch that was still around a hundred years later, Roderick must have been an elder son of the Boisterous. Question remains if the Boastful was a son of Roderick or a brother.

Yeah, that seems to be the case. Although we should treat all that as preliminary stuff until it is mentioned in a book. Family trees are very much in flux as the Targaryen tree between TWoIaF and FaB showed - and we can reasonably expect Lynara Stark and her relation to Cregan to feature in some manner in FaB II.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

If the Boastful had been of bad health, he could have been born also around 5 AC.

Sure, but the younger he is the less meaningful would his comparison between Jaehaerys I and Aegon the Conqueror become. If he basically only knew the old Aegon rather than the man he was around the Conquest or in the 1st decade AC he wouldn't be that great of an expert.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Cregan was born in 108 AC, so I would place Rickon' birth around 90 and Benjen' around 70 AC. Edric seems to have been born around 60 AC, so I do not think there is time for another generation between them. Maybe Edric and Ellard were sons of Alaric's firstborn and Benjen the son of his second son.

Well, Edric, Ellard, and Benjen could all be brothers, or Benjen is a scion of a cadet branch because the main line died out with Edric or Alaric. That could make more sense than to squeeze everybody into the family tree.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Lyman had a younger son who was old enough to court Jeyne Westerling in 47 AC, so I guess Lyman's eldest son could have been born around 25 AC. So either Lyman was a second son or Jocasta a second wife.

If we take Tyrion's remark seriously then he is descended from Loren's eldest son who also succeeded him as Lord of Casterly Rock. Lyman's sons by Jocasta could still be pretty young since a Lannister could easily enough court a Westerling as a teen. But, yes, this kind of thing muddies the water some more. Are we to imagine the son who failed to marry Jeyne in 47 AC had already found a bride by the time Rhaena left Fair Isle? Perhaps.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think another generation makes sense timewise. Two might be a bit convoluted, though.

Yeah. What about the Brandon Snow thing? Is he now no longer a good candidate for the youth with the weirwood spears?

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23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Edric, Ellard, and Benjen could all be brothers, or Benjen is a scion of a cadet branch because the main line died out with Edric or Alaric. That could make more sense than to squeeze everybody into the family tree.

Sure, but in the latter case we have no idea how Benjen fit in. The simplest solution would be to make him a brother or cousin, anything else is possible, though.

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but the younger he is the less meaningful would his comparison between Jaehaerys I and Aegon the Conqueror become. If he basically only knew the old Aegon rather than the man he was around the Conquest or in the 1st decade AC he wouldn't be that great of an expert.

I guess the Boastful was around when Aegon came to Winterfell in 33 AC and he refers to that meeting when he compares the two kings, so Aegon would have been quite old anyway.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If we take Tyrion's remark seriously then he is descended from Loren's eldest son who also succeeded him as Lord of Casterly Rock.

That seems to be right. So Jocasta might have been a second wife. Or the Redwyne girl died before the wedding (would be odd to mention it in this case, at all). Or Loren's heir was fathered prior to the Wars of Conquest and married around 5 AC (would be in conflict with Tyrion's thoughts).

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah. What about the Brandon Snow thing? Is he now no longer a good candidate for the youth with the weirwood spears?

I think he is still a good guess. Even if Torrhen was born around 45 BC, Brandon could have been fathered by Torrhen's father after the death of his wife for example.

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2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Sure, but in the latter case we have no idea how Benjen fit in. The simplest solution would be to make him a brother or cousin, anything else is possible, though.

Well, with Lynara being descended from a cadet branch, Benjen could have been a scion of the same cadet branch, for example.

That both Alaric's sons had offspring is something we could assume - but then, Walton who was older than Alaric didn't have any legitimate offspring, either (and may not even have been married).

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I guess the Boastful was around when Aegon came to Winterfell in 33 AC and he refers to that meeting when he compares the two kings, so Aegon would have been quite old anyway.

Yes, that's a possibility, but it would mean he just met the guy once when he was about sixty. Comparing such a guy to a youth at the cusp of manhood isn't exactly a meaningful assessment.

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That seems to be right. So Jocasta might have been a second wife. Or the Redwyne girl died before the wedding (would be odd to mention it in this case, at all). Or Loren's heir was fathered prior to the Wars of Conquest and married around 5 AC (would be in conflict with Tyrion's thoughts).

The latter idea is problematic in my opinion. There would also be a chance that the Redwyne girl did give Lyman a male heir who happens to be the grandfather of Tymond rather than the father.

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I think he is still a good guess. Even if Torrhen was born around 45 BC, Brandon could have been fathered by Torrhen's father after the death of his wife for example.

Sure, but then we have to believe Torrhen's father was around for quite some time, reducing the time he ruled as king in his own right. Brandon Snow as a youth would mean he was 14-18 years old during the Conquest, I'd say. And we would have to assume that Torrhen's father was around long enough to acknowledge Brandon as his own child. The wife doesn't figure into that at all - the father could have an affair while she was still around, or could even have had multiple mistresses and such considering he was a king (one at least assumes that he was a king and Torrhen did not succeed a royal grandfather or uncle).

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I guess that was noticed earlier, but I can't stop thinking about it. I'm talking about Jonnel's and Sansa Stark marriage. Because it seems that he was her husband only because to strengthen his own claim to Winterfell. But she died and he took a second wife. Question is: how it was possible? Did Cregan allowed to that (if he was alive around that time); or maybe Jonnel had so strong position that he didn't bother? Because more logical to me is Serena as his wife. Does anyone has any idea or theory how or why it happened? 

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8 minutes ago, Aeryn Targaryen said:

I guess that was noticed earlier, but I can't stop thinking about it. I'm talking about Jonnel's and Sansa Stark marriage. Because it seems that he was her husband only because to strengthen his own claim to Winterfell. But she died and he took a second wife. Question is: how it was possible? Did Cregan allowed to that (if he was alive around that time); or maybe Jonnel had so strong position that he didn't bother? Because more logical to me is Serena as his wife. Does anyone has any idea or theory how or why it happened? 

Well, the idea here, in my opinion, would be that Serena's first marriage was arranged before her father Rickon Stark died in Dorne, causing the entire succession issue. While Rickon was still alive he was the heir of Winterfell and he would have expected to succeed his father, meaning that his succession would have been a question for the more distant future - and one imagines he also expected to eventually have a son.

Once Rickon died, things got confused. Since it was unthinkable that a woman could rule the North (there was no Queen in the North nor a Ruling Lady of Winterfell before and Lord Cregan sons of his own, sons who were Starks on both sides I might add, it seems clear to me that Cregan decided to name his eldest surviving son Jonnel his new heir. Serena would have already been betrothed or married to Jon Umber, meaning he couldn't marry her to him to ensure the succession would go smoothly - the rationale behind all that would be to tie the family tree together and to ensure that Jonnel and his sons and grandsons would never be challenged by the descendants of Rickon (sort of like Cat, rightly, fears that the descendants of a legitimized Jon Snow could eventually become a danger to her children and grandchildren) - and thus Cregan picked Rickon's younger daughter Sansa as a bride for Jonnel.

After that marriage led nowhere and Sansa died Jonnel eventually married Robyn Ryswell - either while his father was still around or later on.

Once it became clear that Jonnel would not have children with either of his wives - or perhaps already after Jon Umber died - Cregan or Jonnel decided to marry Serena to Edric, the presumptive heir to Winterfell while Jonnel was yet childless (or rather: without sons) to prevent her from choosing a different husband.

It might also be that there were personal things involved - Serena and Edric may have a thing for each, Sansa may have very much liked uncle, etc. After all, chances are pretty good that they were all about the same age and grew up together at Winterfell. We should not necessarily imagine those matches as something that was done against the will of the women involved.

Serena's bad luck then is that Edric predeceased Jonnel (and possibly also Cregan, depending how long he lived) causing her sons by Edric being passed over in the succession for some reason.

The reasons for that are completely unclear at this point. I'm at a loss why Jonnel should preferred his younger brother Barthogan as heir instead of Edric's sons. A possibility is that Serena was still pregnant with her twin sons Torrhen and Cregard by the time Jonnel and Edric died, or that her sons were considered to be too young for the lordship in a time of crisis - which would make sense if Jonnel and Edric both died on the battlefield.

But then - it is odder still that after Barthogan's death nobody turned back to Edric's sons and instead Winterfell went to his younger brother Brandon. The length of the reign of those lords could play into it ... if Barth only was Lord of Winterfell for a couple of months or 1-2 years then the same arguments used to pass over the twins could be made again.

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