What would you do if you were king Viserys I to avoid the Dance?

[Lord Varys]

We can be reasonably sure that if the looks of the boys had rubbed it into the face of everyone that they were Harwin's sons, i.e. if Harwin Strong had been brown-eyed, brown-haired, and pug-nosed, that there would have been more than just rumors. It couldn't have been ignored if the three 'strong lads' grew into three strong youths all looking exactly like Ser Harwin (and, one would assume, to a lesser degree also like Lord Larys).

But there is nothing of that - instead, we just get their failure of resembling their father to a degree that satisfied Alicent as 'evidence' that they couldn't be Laenor's sons. The fact that Viserys' dragon egg didn't hatch also was seen as a bad omen (although he turned out to be one of the greatest men of the 2nd century).

40 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

All things considered, and given that the Velaryons were clearly on board with the arrangement, I wouldn't be too hard on Rhaenyra on that front.

Yeah, that's the core element there. As children who were born in wedlock they aren't bastards ... even if Laenor wasn't the father, he acknowledged them as his children and he would have known it if he hadn't been able to father them. But apparently he was of the opinion they were his children. Which essentially settles the issue.

[Arthur Peres]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Not even close. You just disliked her.

Let's see

1- Both are presented as very gorgeous women with the key traits of their houses.

2- Both are idiots that think very highly of themselfs and when rulling made a complete mess, Cersei needs no mention here, but Rhaenyra lost control of her capital in less than a year...

3- As mentioned before both started as gorgeous women, but when times passes their beaty fades away, Cersei due to alchool and Rhaenyra due to pregnancy and eating too much sweet.

4-Both have a close relationship with a Kingsguard that later went sour.

5-Both are really entitled, and think that they deserve to be the top dog and rule, both made a mess of it and both are hated by the smallfolks.

5- Both grew more and more paranoid as time goes by, and target people that had no relation with their grives, with Rhaenyra going after bastards and Cersei going after dwarfs.

6- Both had 3 bastard children and tried to pass them as royals.

7- The Valonquar prophecy says that Cersei will be killed by her younger brother, and Rhaenyra was killed by Aegon II.

Rhaeynira is pretty much Cersei with Dragons...

[Arthur Peres]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Was that her plan??

 

She endorsed it.

 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

"she only started losing it at the end of the war. After the 2 betrayers did their thing. She knew how to listen to good advice, which is why Corlys remained her Hand... until Tumblestone."

 

@Eltharion21 alredy showed signs of being ruthless and cruel before the Dance started.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

And he'd become consort, not King in his own right, with all the power that entails.

 

He still had plenty of influence as she cleary heeded his advices even when they were pointless cruelty as Blood and Cheesy, she also placed Mysaria as her master of whispers, the next thing would allow him to name her Kingsguard...

[frenin]

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

1- Both are presented as very gorgeous women with the key traits of their houses.

True.

 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

2- Both are idiots that think very highly of themselfs and when rulling made a complete mess, Cersei needs no mention here, but Rhaenyra lost control of her capital in less than a year...

False and this is where you're slipping, Rhaenrya was not an idiot. And contrary to Cersei she did listen and headed to good counsel, both in  war and in government.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

3- As mentioned before both started as gorgeous women, but when times passes their beaty fades away, Cersei due to alchool and Rhaenyra due to pregnancy and eating too much sweet.

True.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

4-Both have a close relationship with a Kingsguard that later went sour.

True.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

5-Both are really entitled, and think that they deserve to be the top dog and rule, both made a mess of it and both are hated by the smallfolks.

Every heir believe they deserve to be top dog and rule. What is the difference between Robb and Rhaenrya here?? Would Robb tolerate   being pushed from Winterfell??

The differece between Rhaenrya and Cersei is that Rhaenrya was heir to the crown.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

5- Both grew more and more paranoid as time goes by, and target people that had no relation with their grives, with Rhaenyra going after bastards and Cersei going after dwarfs

True.

 

 

Quote

She endorsed it.

Don't really see how, all she was said was Lucerys would be avenged and we're told that she was grieving.

 

 

Quote

@Eltharion21 alredy showed signs of being ruthless and cruel before the Dance started.

And i already answered him, @Alyn Oakenfist also did.

 

Quote

He still had plenty of influence as she cleary heeded his advices even when they were pointless cruelty as Blood and Cheesy, she also placed Mysaria as her master of whispers, the next thing would allow him to name her Kingsguard...

No, he actually didn't. The first thing is blatantly false, Daemon acted alone there.

Most of the time Rhaenrya heeded to Corlys advices, in almost everything actually.

She only listened Daemon in war stuff... Because Daemon was considered  the better commander of both sides...

As i said, She had a lot of flaws, but oddly enough you choose to ranting on either nonsense or things that are directly false.

[Arthur Peres]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

False and this is where you're slipping, Rhaenrya was not an idiot. And contrary to Cersei she did listen and headed to good counsel, both in  war and in government.

 

At the start of AGoT Cersei track record also wasn't bad... she knew about Renly's plot, dealed with Jon Arryn with Pycelle's help, scared Stannis out of KL, killed Robert, scared Renly out of KL, and beat Ned in the game and made him confess his treason.

They time as ruler is what shows that they were stupid and Rhaenyra took several actions that were pure madness and foolish, and just like Cersei she ended up with a mess being hated by the ones that lived under her rule.

[frenin]

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

At the start of AGoT Cersei track record also wasn't bad...

Ofc it wasn't... Because she barely did a thing.

 

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

.. she knew about Renly's plot, dealed with Jon Arryn with Pycelle's help, scared Stannis out of KL, killed Robert, scared Renly out of KL, and beat Ned in the game and made him confess his treason.

- She didn't know about Renly's plot, she just feared that Robert might grow weary of her and ser her aside... Something he could do with or without Renly's prompting.

 

- And with Lysa's and Petyr's help.

 

- Stannis did not leave KL out of fear, he left because he wasn't named Hand.

 

- The killing Robert was a hail mary.

 

- She did not beat Ned in the GoT, Ned himself, Sansa and Littlefinger defeated Ned.

 

- Varys made Ned confess  his treason.

 

Is the Tywin effect...

 

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

They time as ruler is what shows that they were stupid and Rhaenyra took several actions that were pure madness and foolish, and just like Cersei she ended up with a mess being hated by the ones that lived under her rule.

 

I would not even discuss this, you're way off and clearly dislike her.

 

[Darth Sidious]

22 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why stop at bastardizing Aegon? Not Aemond?

If anything, out of the two, Aemond was the greater danger. It always had been that way.

Bastardize them both.  Send them to the Wall.  The king had many options.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Rhaeynira is pretty much Cersei with Dragons...

Rhaenyra and Cersei have pretty much nothing in common. They are completely different characters. Cersei is quite obviously more devious, crueler, and smarter than Rhaenyra.

And Rhaenyra only lost her capital because she was surrounded by evil Green agents, anti-dragon preachers, not exactly great advisers, a bunch of evil traitors, and had to deal with an empty treasury thanks to her shithead brother.

You can compare her downfall to the approaching end of King Tommen and the Lannister regime - the dwarf's penny was Littlefinger's idea but it stuck with Tyrion and the Lannisters and greatly contributed to their unpopularity. The Kingslanders were in a mad frenzy from the day the evil Greens staged their coup, fearing that the dragons would eventually come and burn them all. It makes sense that they would eventually explode and do something stupid - but Rhaenyra had no other choice but to raise the taxes and fleece the people who were at her mercy. You cannot pay your people or run the state if you don't have the coin.

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

She endorsed it.

Rhaenyra never endorsed Blood and Cheese.

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

@Eltharion21 alredy showed signs of being ruthless and cruel before the Dance started.

Those are silly 'signs'. It is like saying Jaehaerys I was a cruel king because he cut the Stinger to pieces, slew Borys Baratheon, or hanged and ripped out the entrails of some murderous scum.

There is nothing wrong with executing traitors in this world. Especially not such who betray both their liege lord and his liege lord.

Rhaenyra's main flaws were that she was too weak, not that she was too cruel. She should have executed more people, especially Alicent Hightower and Helaena Targaryen. She should have turned Storm's End into another Harrenhal, and she should have sent an ultimatum to Oldtown the day she learned about the coup that she would burn down the city and the Hightower if Lord Ormund and his bannermen and knights would not publicly denounce Otto, Alicent, and 'Aegon II'.

There were ways to end this war before it started - by sending a very clear message at the start. If Rhaenyra truly had been 'Maegor with Teats' she would have ruled supreme in a couple of months. Instead she is more a version of King Aenys with bad advisors.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Either wed Rhaenyra to Aegon* once he came of age, or name Rhaenyra his hand as an adult instead of bringing Otto Hightower back (I can't remember what year that was), regardless of her poor relationship with Alicent. 

*I really like the theory that the Hightowers were behind Laenor's death, in hopes of finally persuading Viserys to wed Rhaenyra to Aegon. Aegon was still single at this point, and as far as we know, he wasn't betrothed to Helaena yet either, so the timeline works.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Either wed Rhaenyra to Aegon* once he came of age, or name Rhaenyra his hand as an adult instead of bringing Otto Hightower back (I can't remember what year that was), regardless of her poor relationship with Alicent.

It was in 120 AC, after the deaths of Harwin and Lyonel at Harrenhal (following the deaths of Laena and Laenor).

I'd say the return of Otto to court is what made the coup and the Dance possible. If that hadn't happened - or Otto had been dismissed again before the king's death - it wouldn't have happened.

But I'm not sure whether a marriage between the two could have resolved anything. Rhaenyra would remain the Heir Apparent, and Aegon just the prince consort ... and Alicent and her party would not be fine with that.

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

*I really like the theory that the Hightowers were behind Laenor's death, in hopes of finally persuading Viserys to wed Rhaenyra to Aegon. Aegon was still single at this point, and as far as we know, he wasn't betrothed to Helaena yet either, so the timeline works.

I think I put forth that idea, too, once, but I think one should also consider the Strongs as the culprits. Lyonel is described as a very smart guy, Larys, too, in addition to be an utterly devious character, and Harwin had his unscrupulous side, too, assuming we believe he was the captain who told Viserys I about Daemon's 'heir for a day' joke, and the claim that he took Rhaenyra's maidenhead (or had sex with her if Daemon had already taken it). Regardless whether he father Rhaenyra's sons or not - he definitely wanted to marry the Princess of Dragonstone, meaning he (and his father) may have decided to go through with that.

But the Hightowers definitely are interesting suspects, too.

One could assume that 'the plan' on Alicent's up until 120 AC was to use the calumnies about Rhaenyra's sons to push Aegon the Elder and her other children through as next in line after Rhaenyra. She must have known while Lyonel Strong was Hand Rhaenyra's succession was nothing she could challenge. But she could, perhaps, force Viserys I or even a Queen Rhaenyra to accept her children or grandchildren as her heirs rather than her own sons.

But that's something the marriage with Daemon and the subsequent birth of Aegon the Younger and Viserys buried for good. Even if the Velaryon boys could be pushed aside ... Rhaenyra's sons by Daemon Targaryen nobody could possibly push aside. One also assumes that something like that might be the background of Alicent's anger over Rhaenyra's decision to name her son Aegon, too - which in and of itself isn't a slight or a provocation considering how common the name is among the Targaryens.

The marriage between Aegon and Helaena seems to be a reaction to the fertile Rhaenyra-Daemon marriage and the ultimate decision to create two distinct branches of House Targaryen rather than trying to reunite them. If Rhaenyra had married Aegon rather Daemon after the death of Laenor, then they may have had the grace to arrange a betrothal between Jacaerys and Helaena to knit the family back together - Aegon would sit at Rhaenyra's side as prince consort, and Helaena would eventually become queen at Jacaerys' side, etc.

[The Bard of Banefort]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It was in 120 AC, after the deaths of Harwin and Lyonel at Harrenhal (following the deaths of Laena and Laenor).

I'd say the return of Otto to court is what made the coup and the Dance possible. If that hadn't happened - or Otto had been dismissed again before the king's death - it wouldn't have happened.

But I'm not sure whether a marriage between the two could have resolved anything. Rhaenyra would remain the Heir Apparent, and Aegon just the prince consort ... and Alicent and her party would not be fine with that.

I think I put forth that idea, too, once, but I think one should also consider the Strongs as the culprits. Lyonel is described as a very smart guy, Larys, too, in addition to be an utterly devious character, and Harwin had his unscrupulous side, too, assuming we believe he was the captain who told Viserys I about Daemon's 'heir for a day' joke, and the claim that he took Rhaenyra's maidenhead (or had sex with her if Daemon had already taken it). Regardless whether he father Rhaenyra's sons or not - he definitely wanted to marry the Princess of Dragonstone, meaning he (and his father) may have decided to go through with that.

But the Hightowers definitely are interesting suspects, too.

One could assume that 'the plan' on Alicent's up until 120 AC was to use the calumnies about Rhaenyra's sons to push Aegon the Elder and her other children through as next in line after Rhaenyra. She must have known while Lyonel Strong was Hand Rhaenyra's succession was nothing she could challenge. But she could, perhaps, force Viserys I or even a Queen Rhaenyra to accept her children or grandchildren as her heirs rather than her own sons.

But that's something the marriage with Daemon and the subsequent birth of Aegon the Younger and Viserys buried for good. Even if the Velaryon boys could be pushed aside ... Rhaenyra's sons by Daemon Targaryen nobody could possibly push aside. One also assumes that something like that might be the background of Alicent's anger over Rhaenyra's decision to name her son Aegon, too - which in and of itself isn't a slight or a provocation considering how common the name is among the Targaryens.

The marriage between Aegon and Helaena seems to be a reaction to the fertile Rhaenyra-Daemon marriage and the ultimate decision to create two distinct branches of House Targaryen rather than trying to reunite them. If Rhaenyra had married Aegon rather Daemon after the death of Laenor, then they may have had the grace to arrange a betrothal between Jacaerys and Helaena to knit the family back together - Aegon would sit at Rhaenyra's side as prince consort, and Helaena would eventually become queen at Jacaerys' side, etc.

It's ironic to think how Harwin was one of the men Viserys considered for Rhaenyra. I don't think he would have ever done so after Laenor's death, however, since that likely would have been seen as confirmation of his grandsons' parentage.

I think that, after some time, Alicent and Otto could have been persuaded to allow Rhaenyra and Aegon to be named co-rulers, with neither being dubbed "consort." I don't think Rhaenyra would have gone for it, however.

Daemon would have been a wild card. I don't think he arranged Laenor's murder, since secret assassinations don't seem to be his style. There was no secrecy about Blood and Cheese acting on his orders, and if he were open to anonymous killings, then it's more likely that he would have arranged some kind of tragedy for his first wife, Rhea. Instead he just pestered Viserys about it for 18 years. Even him endlessly pursuing Aemond so he could kill him personally suggests that he did things much more openly.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's ironic to think how Harwin was one of the men Viserys considered for Rhaenyra. I don't think he would have ever done so after Laenor's death, however, since that likely would have been seen as confirmation of his grandsons' parentage.

Well, it seems as if 'the Strong story' only became 'an official issue' after the Vhagar incident at Laenor's funeral. Perhaps the Strongs (or at least Harwin) thought he could marry Rhaenyra if Laenor was gone? Like Rhaenyra did with Daemon he would have likely not asked the king's permission for that marriage.

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that, after some time, Alicent and Otto could have been persuaded to allow Rhaenyra and Aegon to be named co-rulers, with neither being dubbed "consort." I don't think Rhaenyra would have gone for it, however.

That all depends how bad things were in 120 AC already - and Aegon's talk at the funeral about 'the Strongs' implies it was already very bad indeed on a personal level. Rhaenyra had also left court some years earlier (after the birth of Luke) since things had become unbearable. The idea that a marriage could have mended anything at this point is very difficult to imagine. Although one can, perhaps, assume that Alicent would have been content if Aegon married Rhaenyra back in 113 AC to ensure that her grandchild eventually sat the Iron Throne. At that point things weren't yet as bad as they were later.

I mean, one really has to keep in mind that the coup/civil war thing isn't something Alicent would have prepared from from the start. That hinges completely on Otto being the Hand ... and even then it was a very risky move. That this was an extreme and unforeseen measure on the Black side is proven by the fact that neither Rhaenyra/Daemon on Dragonstone nor their Black allies at court expected such a thing to happen. There was no preparation on their side for a coup or civil war. They were completely unprepared and had to approach various lords to convince them to side with them only after they learned Viserys I was dead and Aegon II had been crowned.

This is a completely different scenario then, say, 101 AC where both Daemon and Corlys rather openly prepared for a civil war in defiance of the Old King.

I'm not sure if that's intentional on George's part or a plot hole grown from his intention to model Rhaenyra on Stannis at the beginning of the war, but one cannot interpret things in a way where one says the Blacks must have seen the coup coming. They clearly did not, meaning they thought Otto and Alicent would not resist Rhaenyra's rise to the throne.

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Daemon would have been a wild card. I don't think he arranged Laenor's murder, since secret assassinations don't seem to be his style. There was no secrecy about Blood and Cheese acting on his orders, and if he were open to anonymous killings, then it's more likely that he would have arranged some kind of tragedy for his first wife, Rhea. Instead he just pestered Viserys about it for 18 years. Even him endlessly pursuing Aemond so he could kill him personally suggests that he did things much more openly.

That makes sense. The biggest problem with the Daemon suspicion there is that Corlys and Rhaenys must have been complete morons not to suspect Daemon (who they had known as a quarrelsome sometime ally and sometime adversary for decades before he became their son-in-law) if there were hints in that direction. Instead, one can could assume that Mushroom's idea there is just a conclusion he drew because he asked the cui bono? question in relation to Laenor's murder - but Rhaenyra and Daemon jumping on the chance to marry does not mean that they had to create those circumstances. They could have just done what they did because they realized they could do that now.

Also, we have the fact that Daemon had just lost his wife in Laena, and he and she seemed to have been pretty close (and both of them apparently had been very close to Rhaenyra), so it would be a very ugly thing to just arrange the murder of his brother-in-law.

And if Corlys/Rhaenys had so much as the shadow of a doubt that Daemon or Rhaenyra were in any way involved in the murder of their son the Dance of the Dragons would have gone very differently. In fact, one expects that Daemon and Rhaenyra may not even have lived up until 129 AC because the Velaryons would have destroyed them before that.

But one should seriously consider that Qarl Correy was just acting alone and got away (or drowned by accident after the boat/ship he fled on sunk). This is not unlikely considering Laenor apparently had grown tired of him and was no longer willing to support his expensive lifestyle. If Correy had been hired by a third party to murder the man it must strike us as very odd that he did such a thing at the middle of a fair in front of dozens of witnesses. Chances that he would not get away/eventually be caught because people knew who he was and what he did were very high. Sure, he could have been a stupid hired murderer, but why not kill Laenor in a more private place and then run?

There is also the possibility that Corlys Velaryon did catch him and had him cruelly tortured and eventually killed without publicly revealing this to anyone (possibly because he didn't want dishonor his son's name by allowing to speak this man openly about what they did).

If Correy was acting on behalf of a third party I think there are a number of possibilities:

Alicent Hightower, to arrange force through a marriage between Rhaenyra and Daemon.

The Strongs/Harwin, to perhaps arrange a marriage between Rhaenyra and Harwin. Such a thing could be caused by the fact that Harwin feared that Daemon would replace him as Rhaenyra's champion and close confidant now that he was no longer bound to Laena.

Another interesting suspect could be Rhaenyra herself. She may have had a better motive if we assume she had grown somewhat tired of Harwin (or never had had an affair with him) and had rekindled her attraction to her dashing uncle after she started to grow fond of Laena after her and Daemon's return from Essos. We learn that she comforted Daemon after Laena's death, and depending when exactly she got pregnant with Aegon the Younger (depending when exactly Laena died and how much time passed between her death and Laenor's) she may have thought that Daemon being finally available for a marriage would be the point to end her marriage to Laenor. After all, I'd argue that Rhaenyra was the one more interested in Daemon in 120 AC than Daemon the one interested in Rhaenyra. He could have been content being the father of the future queen (Baela, who was to marry Rhaenyra's heir). As such he would have a high position at Rhaenyra's court in any case, and could expect to become Hand or get any other office of his choice.

But this also hinges on the cui bono? thing which simply may the wrong way to try to settle this issue.

Thus I think the best answer to this riddle may just be that Correy was a desperate man who murdered his friend in a mad rage and then either got himself killed by accident, was cladestinely captured by Corlys' people, or was murdered by the men he was indebted to - he could have turned to them to get off Driftmark and they could have killed him or handed him over to Lord Corlys, or they could have killed him to deliver his remains to the Sea Snake.