The world after the pandemic

[Kalbear]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Seeing photos and videos is absolutely nothing like standing in the Yosemite Valley.

And you personally need to fly to Yosemite...why? You can't take a car or train? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Sure. My kids haven't, though. I'd rather they not go to Scotland if it means they aren't on the Fury Road instead. 

And here's the real rub, Scot - the world I'm worried about ALSO has no aviation industry, because poverty and disaster are so rampant that only the very rich can afford it anyway. This is leading to the same god damn place. 

Fair enough.  Do you really think we can just remake the entire world eliminate whole industries and technologies without incredible upheaval and disruption.

What you and others are advocating will have blowback none of us can imagine.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And you personally need to fly to Yosemite...why? You can't take a car or train? 

I don’t but people from Europe, Asia, and Australia do.

[ljkeane]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I don't want to be that guy, but at some point it becomes rather simple. Either you want to do something about climate change, and that means being aware that it does entail temporary sacrifices, or you really care more about a few comforts than about preserving the planet for future generations.

To be perfectly honest no, I don't really care that much about preserving the planet for future generations. I don't have children, I don't plan to have children and I don't care enough about other people's children to make my life notably worse in the probably forlorn hope of making a significant change on the global warming front.

If there are easy options for my to reduce my impact on climate change without much cost to me, sure, why not? But I'm not going to do much more than that. If you want to go further knock yourself out but the reality is I think most people don't care enough to inconvenience themselves. 

I can absolutely accept that governments should step in at that point. It's pretty much their job to make decisions that may not be popular in the short term for the long term well being of the population of their countries but I don't think it's likely to happen anytime soon. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Fair enough.  Do you really think we can just remake the entire world eliminate whole industries and technologies without incredible upheaval and disruption.

What you and others are advocating will have blowback none of us can imagine.

I don't think we can do it overnight, no. But I think we have to start thinking about it now. 

And yes, removing whole industries and technologies will mean some people are going to suffer. Probably my industry as well. The difference is that we have gone through many, many different iterations of massive technological upheaval in the last 200 years and while things have changed, the world has not ended. 

What we haven't gone through is massive climate change that has killed millions. 

So which do you want? The removal of horse-drawn carriages, or the removal of agriculture?

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I don’t but people from Europe, Asia, and Australia do.

Why do they need to? Why do we need transcontinental fast travel? What is the specific requirement of people to travel to Yosemite from China instead of visiting the various amazing Chinese mountains and valleys, or visiting the Himalayas, or visiting Mongolia? 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think we can do it overnight, no. But I think we have to start thinking about it now. 

And yes, removing whole industries and technologies will mean some people are going to suffer. Probably my industry as well. The difference is that we have gone through many, many different iterations of massive technological upheaval in the last 200 years and while things have changed, the world has not ended. 

What we haven't gone through is massive climate change that has killed millions. 

So which do you want? The removal of horse-drawn carriages, or the removal of agriculture?

I strongly suspect your industry will come out of all this rather well.  You are needed to make things that needed to be done in person remotely.  Those in Computer science are more essential than ever before.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Why do they need to? Why do we need transcontinental fast travel? What is the specific requirement of people to travel to Yosemite from China instead of visiting the various amazing Chinese mountains and valleys, or visiting the Himalayas, or visiting Mongolia? 

 

I’ve been to Yosemite.  I’d like a world where everyone has that opportunity.

That said, necessity is the mother of invention.  Perhaps, if we do pull the trigger on this it will prompt significant innovation in clean industry and mass transit.

Who knows?

[Rippounet]

4 minutes ago, maarsen said:

The older I get the less I see of point of travelling to faraway locations. I hate being part of a herd. 

Mass tourism is a fucking disgrace. It is an attempt of the consumer society to put an exchange value on feelings, to market experiences.
But the only thing it ends up selling is selfies to post on social media.
I don't think what tourism has become is worth saving in the first place. Traveling is an incredible experience. What we are being sold today... I think we can do without.

2 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

To be perfectly honest no, I don't really care that much about preserving the planet for future generations. I don't have children, I don't plan to have children and I don't care enough about other people's children to make my life notably worse in the probably forlorn hope of making a significant change on the global warming front.

Thank you for your honesty.

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Fair enough.  Do you really think we can just remake the entire world eliminate whole industries and technologies without incredible upheaval and disruption.

I'm currently confined in my house, having learned to work remotely. I haven't spent time with anyone apart from my spouse and my kid for the past three weeks and I wear a mask whenever I go out for grocery shopping.
Tonight, my president spoke on TV to anounce what the next few weeks would look like for the nation. Many of my friends are losing their jobs ; others are working overtime. The economy is fucked for the foreseeable future.
People are dying.

"Upheaval and disruption," uh?
 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’ve been to Yosemite.  I’d like a world where everyone has that opportunity. 

At what cost?

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

At what cost?

 

See the rest of that post.  

[Kalbear]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

See the rest of that post.  

No, I'm past that part. You're saying that maybe this will encourage more efficiencies. Cool. What I'm asking you, since you appear to not mind the current status quo, is - what cost is sufficient for you? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Mass tourism is a fucking disgrace. It is an attempt of the consumer society to put an exchange value on feelings, to market experiences.
But the only thing it ends up selling is selfies to post on social media.
I don't think what tourism has become is worth saving in the first place. Traveling is an incredible experience. What we are being sold today... I think we can do without.

Thank you for your honesty.

I'm currently confined in my house, having learned to work remotely. I haven't spent time with anyone apart from my spouse and my kid for the past three weeks and I wear a mask whenever I go out for grocery shopping.
Tonight, my president spoke on TV to anounce what the next few weeks would look like for the nation. Many of my friends are losing their jobs ; others are working overtime. The economy is fucked for the foreseeable future.
People are dying.

"Upheaval and disruption," uh?
 

Yes.  Additional upheaval and destruction.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No, I'm past that part. You're saying that maybe this will encourage more efficiencies. Cool. What I'm asking you, since you appear to not mind the current status quo, is - what cost is sufficient for you? 

If you could guarantee the path you propose would protect my children and allow them rich fulfilling lives what you and others propose would be worth it.

I don’t believe you or anyone else can make that promise.

[Rippounet]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’d like a world where everyone has that opportunity.

Me too.
The transition is only temporary Scot. Ten to thirty years of contraints before we develop comparable alternatives to what we have now.
It's you and me giving up something for our children and grandchildren to get it back.
There is no decent alternative.

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Perhaps, if we do pull the trigger on this it will prompt significant innovation in clean industry and mass transit.

I nearly made that point earlier.

Ironically, belief in the market would logically entail that it can rapidly produce alternatives.

Ten to thirty years is my guess.

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  Additional upheaval and destruction.

Oh come on Scot, the big idea is precisely to chart a path out of the chaos.

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If you could guarantee the path you propose would protect my children and allow them rich fulfilling lives what you and others propose would be worth it.

I don’t believe you or anyone else can make that promise.

No.

But as things stand, neither can you.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I didn’t say I could.

[Larry of the Lawn]

42 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Seeing photos and videos is absolutely nothing like standing in the Yosemite Valley.

So let's keep up all the behaviors that are destroying places like Yosemite.  Brilliant.  

 

[Spockydog]

41 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

To be perfectly honest no, I don't really care that much about preserving the planet for future generations. I don't have children, I don't plan to have children and I don't care enough about other people's children to make my life notably worse in the probably forlorn hope of making a significant change on the global warming front.

Why am I not at all surprised by this? SMFH. What does surprises me though is the fact you've got the nerve to say it as if it's something to be proud of.

As for air travel, Scot, approx 75% of commercial air travel is business-related, and of that, probably at least 75% is non-essential. 

I'm guessing that with the collapse of the business travel market, there'll be plenty of environmental scope for leisure travel.

   

 

[Spockydog]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If you could guarantee the path you propose would protect my children and allow them rich fulfilling lives what you and others propose would be worth it.

I don’t believe you or anyone else can make that promise.

Perhaps at least, for the sake of your kids, give it a go?

This is the beginning of The Great Boomer Die Off. The younglings will save us. Climb aboard.

 

[ljkeane]

3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Why am I not at all surprised by this? SMFH. What does surprises me though is the fact you've got the nerve to say it as if it's something to be proud of.

No, it's just a statement of fact. It's also, pretty clearly, the position of most people given their behavior. But, hey, perhaps you live a carbon neutral lifestyle. I suspect you probably don't though.