Tyrion and Sansa

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

TNLG, I may respond later. I haven't really read this far,  I've about exhausted my time and energy right now.

Understood, corbon. Exhaustion is everyone's natural state these days anyway! Don't over-extend yourself, it's not the most important thing in the world.

[BlackLightning]

The Tyrion/Sansa marriage was an act of war against the Starks and the Tullys (it was also a veiled warning to the Tyrells much that's another topic)

That's not up for debate. Tywin wants to put the lands and income of Winterfell (and the entire North by extension) in the hands of his grandchildren while, at the same time, breaking and destroying the rightful rulers of Winterfell.

It's a lot like how systemic rape and sexual enslavement is viewed as a war crime and why the rape of the Bosniak people were considered acts of genocide.

It's a genocidal conquest.

The fact that Tyrion agreed to the marriage, knowing that that's exactly what it was (an act of war), makes him an willing participant. Tywin included him in the discussions. So not only is Tyrion a villain in this case but he is actually more at fault in this than Cersei and Joffrey combined. The fact that he did it for the glory of the family is bad enough. But Tyrion did it selfishly, for the sake of his personal fulfillment and satisfaction.

What makes everything worst is that Tyrion knows that Joffrey is a pretender and an usurper, that Ned Stark was misled and betrayed before being wrongfully punished.

Tyrion rationalizes and justifies it all away in his head; but he is wrong and he knows it. His feelings matter more than his family's well-being and much more than Sansa's. If Tyrion had a ounce of honor in himself, he would've declined and forced Tywin to make other arrangements. GRRM expertly crafted the perfect anti-villain (aka a villain who people feel sorry for)

If Tyrion got what he wanted by way of his marriage to Sansa, there would be no justice for Ned Stark, no justice for the Red Wedding and the Lannisters would be the new Lords of Winterfell (and eventually, the new Wardens of the North) by way of kidnapping, blackmail and rape.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

 

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

So not only is Tyrion a villain in this case but he is actually more at fault in this than Cersei and Joffrey combined. The fact that he did it for the glory of the family is bad enough. But Tyrion did it selfishly, for the sake of his personal fulfillment and satisfaction.

I agree with you mostly, until here. I don't think he is more at fault than the people that actually did this to her & forced her into it. That doesn't make much sense to me. 

I think his motivation were to help himself & his family both & don't think that is a bad thing, in & of itself. 

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

What makes everything worst is that Tyrion knows that Joffrey is a pretender and an usurper, that Ned Stark was misled and betrayed before being wrongfully punished

Why does this make Tyrion worse? I agree it makes the situation worse & more horrendous for Sansa but I don't see how knowing these things make Tyrion's decision worse. 

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion rationalizes and justifies it all away in his head; but he is wrong and he knows it

What from the text makes you think he is falsely rationalizing this & that he knows he is? 

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

His feelings matter more than his family's well-being and much more than Sansa's.

I don't think they do. It wasn't a matter of his feelings but of political gain for himself & his family. How has he shown his feelings matter more than his families & Sansa's? I think he has shown a great regard for Sansa & (some) of his family. 

He doesn't go through with the consummation, against his own feelings & his father's wishes, for Sansa & her well-being. 

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If Tyrion had a ounce of honor in himself, he would've declined and forced Tywin to make other arrangements. GRRM expertly crafted the perfect anti-villain (aka a villain who people feel sorry for)

I disagree but anyway it goes 'honor' in this case is a matter of opinion & it can & is argued that it was honorable to offer her the choice not marry him, to refuse to consummate against his father & other ridicule. 

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If Tyrion got what he wanted by way of his marriage to Sansa, there would be no justice for Ned Stark, no justice for the Red Wedding and the Lannisters would be the new Lords of Winterfell (and eventually, the new Wardens of the North) by way of kidnapping, blackmail and rape

That doesn't make much sense. The Bolton's hold WF now. Does that mean there will be no justice for the RW & Ned Stark? 

Also, Tyrion can't be blamed for everything everyone in his family has done. He played no part in the RW or Ned's beheading. 

 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I do find it unfair that you are so angry with me for doing nothing more than disagreeing with you

I don't know, why you think I am angry at you. I feel like all I have done is stating my opinion, disagreeing with you, like you have disagreed with me. I didn't get the feeling you were particularly pleased with me either though. Maybe that's just how it comes across, when you disagree with each other.

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I was not aware of that. I would still think that discussing the use of the term victim-blaming would be okay when someone is being called a victim blamer though. 

It was in the Jon-Ygritte rape? thread. We started to talk about the me too movement and it was thematically very fitting, but were told to stop by the moderators, because there are different forums for this and we should stick to the books in the books forum. 

I've seen the moderators also tell the posters before to not discuss each other, why I think it is wrong to assume personal things about the posters, that they are too close to a subject to stay objective. Stick to the post and not the poster

Also I have in all of the threads I've been in and have read never seen someone being called a victim-blamer. It is a big difference to call someone a victim-blamer or to point out a statement they have made is by it's definition victim-blaming.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It was in the Jon-Ygritte rape? thread. We started to talk about the me too movement and it was thematically very fitting, but were told to stop by the moderators, because there are different forums for this and we should stick to the books in the books forum

I do recall that now. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I've seen the moderators also tell the posters before to not discuss each other, why I think it is wrong to assume personal things about the posters, that they are too close to a subject to stay objective. Stick to the post and not the poster

To be fair he didn't say that did he? You felt as if he implied it, right? I think there is a difference between saying your argument is coming from emotion & saying you are too close to a subject to stay objective. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Also I have in all of the threads I've been in and have read never seen someone being called a victim-blamer. It is a big difference to call someone a victim-blamer or to point out a statement they have made is by it's definition victim-blaming.

I tried to explain this already but if someone is being accused of victim-blaming then they are in turn a "victim-blamer" there isn't much difference in that IMO. 

[corbon]

On 4/10/2020 at 3:17 AM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Sure. Exactly what a novel series concerning the human heart in conflict with itself needs: scientific analysis. Should I be wearing a lab coat?

This has got nothing to do with science. The analysis is of arguments - whether they stand up to scrutiny and are worthy of the point they try to make, or whether they do not in fact fit with the data and the attempted point is void.

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Sarcasm aside, my "results" are different because my "basis" is different. It's like you're saying that you use flour and milk that results in pancakes, therefore if I use fruit and sugar that results in jam instead of pancakes, I "fail the examination".

No, thats not the point I'm trying to make here.
The basis for each of us is first the text, then our understanding and application of the text to form ideas from.  Different people with different understandings  (basis) and different logic (application) reach different results from the same text. Thats fine. Thats to be expected. At this stage we can't tell if either or both or neither 'result' is valid or not. The baseis are not inherently better than each other. We have to test the results, and examine the methodology used to achieve those results.

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That's also why I stated right at the beginning that I wasn't offering my interpretation in opposition to yours but in addition to it. Looking at both the pancakes and the jam, as it were. Both are good and can go together well also!

Sure. But what if the pancakes were made with a tablespoon of salt instead of a pinch? Or the jam was made with holly berries instead of red currants? Either pancakes or jam could be good, or bad. Just because it was presented by someone, doesn't make it good. The presenter may have made an error, or may have just not known of stronger evidence in another direction.   

Here's an example. Apologies if I state your position in error. Its the best understanding I have of what your words have meant at this point, and my attempt to follow your line of thinking. If I'm wrong, then you get to point out how you think differently to what I'm understanding your thought pattern is, and maybe that will invalidate my analysis, and maybe it won't. But we'll both have a better understanding of each other's position, and both be closer to the truth - whether its mine, yours, somewhere between or both at once not mutually inconclusive. Or even still 'either', we don;t know, but now have both accepted an alternative understanding from our original also works for us (and perhaps agree to disagree on how well each works for each of us).
The conversation between Kevan and Tywin about alternative Lannisters is the text we both read. It the basis we form our understanding with. We then apply our logic to what that means and find a result.

We both read the same text, basis, that Tywin and Kevan are discussing alternatives and rule out several younger Lannisters. 
For both of us part of our baseis is that the conversation, as Tyrion says, is a byplay for his benefit - you actually used the word charade, which means an absurd pretense.

We both apply our understanding, logic, thought process, whatever you want to call it, and come up with two different results.
Your result is that the conversation tells us that Tyrion is the only possible Lannister that can marry Sansa.
My result is that Tyrion is not the only Lannister who can marry Sansa.

At this point, its fine. Both results are credible even if in opposition to each other. If anything your result appears more credible at this stage because it follows the limited conversation precisely at its limits.
But lets test these two ideas. If my testing is imperfect, if there is something I miss out, or you don;t agree on meaning of, then point out how and where and we reassess - your points on my testing might be right, or wrong too, but bring them, and we can both reassess.

You agree that as Tyrion says, its a byplay for his benefit. I agree. You then proceed to take it as a perfect, complete, whole conversation. There are no other Lannisters available because they considered several and dismissed them all. Thats fine on the surface.
You argued that it is strange that they didn't indicate directly that there were other alternatives to Tyrion.
But its not how a byplay for someone else's benefit always works. The point of a byplay is the message, not the words. A byplay does not have to be a complete and total consideration of all factors to get the message across - indeed, its usually the opposite. If you give a complete and absolute analysis its not a byplay, or a message, any more, its the full deal. Heck, a byplay doesn't even have to be fully accurate (absurd pretense!) - its possible that Lancel could still be made to work for them as a less good alternative, for example - the point is to get the message across.
So at this stage, your idea is still fine, still workable, but less strong than it was, because Tyrion recognised it as a byplay, therefore it wasn't supposed to be a complete and absolute analysis nor did it need to be entirely accurate. My idea is stronger than it was, because it fits the 'byplay' idea better, but still no stronger than yours on the limited facts presented thus far.

So then look at the meaning we each imputed, and test that.
If your meaning is correct, then Tywin and Kevan are telling Tyrion that their plan relies absolutely on him.
If my meaning is correct, they are telling him that this plan will happen, he isn't needed. He is preferred, but even if he chooses not to participate, this plan will still go ahead.
Which of those work better?
TnK giving Tyrion the message that they need him, and only him, is giving away the power. Its a poor negotiating technique, a poor control technique, and about as opposite Tywin Lannister's character and methodology as possible. It does nothing whatsoever to convince Tyrion to follow it.
I can't see any positive value in this little sub-conversation for Tywin. I can see negative value though.
TnK telling Tyrion that he's wanted but not needed does several useful things for Tywin though.
 - it soothes Tyrion's ego (he's part of their plans, wanted, rewarded)
 - it shows Tyrion that he has no power in this event, thus discouraging his disagreement
 - it eliminates any value in Tyrion playing the hero and 'saving' Sansa by refusing
For me, this is pretty powerful stuff. Its enough to make my reading much much stronger than yours in terms of probability, but not enough to rule your out entirely. Maybe for you its not so powerful, but its still important and relevant points.

Next we look at what else was said and see how it fits.
You pointed out that Tyrion ended the conversation with a direct order, a definitive. Tyrion WILL marry Sansa. Its the culmination of the discussion, all the points are in, its practically a statement of fact by now. Tywin is issuing a command as the final nail in the persuasion. This fits with the idea that no other Lannisters are available. I have no problem with that understanding. 
I believe it fits just as well  with Tyrion not being the only possible Lannister. Its still the culmination, all the points are in, practically a statement of fact. the difference here is that Tywin needs the forceful command even more as part of the persuasion. Because there are alternatives, but Tywin wants Tyrion to agree so he gets the best option.
What else was said?
I pointed out that another of Tywin's persuasion tactics was to threaten Tyrion with the stick of an alternative marriage. But there can't be an alternative bride for Tyrion if there is no alternative groom for Sansa! I don't think Tywin's saying "ok, we'll drop this whole marry Sansa to a Lannister thing if you say so, but you'll get lumped with a Tanda". He doesn't give up that easily. No, he's saying "not marrying Sansa won't stop our political plan, but it will get you a Tanda". 

There may have been more, but I've gone on too long already, just on this one point.
The point is that the initial ideas - whether Tyrion was the only possible Lannister or not, have been tested and compared. And we find, or at least i do, that the idea that Tyrion is the only possible Lannister to marry Sansa, while seeming sensible at first glance, doesn't actually fit with Tyrions understanding ("byplay"), doesn't fit with Tywin's goals (persuade Tyrion to do what Tywin wants) or character (domineering) and doesn;t fit with ther things Tywin said (alternative brides).
Whereas the less immediately apparent idea that Tyrion is not in fact the only Lannister who can marry Sansa does better in every area.

The point going through all that wasn't to show right or wrong on this particular issue, it was to show why we examine the reasoning - because that way we find some ideas to be stronger than others, or even some ideas to be flawed enough that they ought to be discarded. And sometimes they are not the most obvious ideas. As I said, taking that little passage in isolation (and ignoring the byplay aspect), it does seem more true that there are no other Lannisters available. 

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This is a misrepresentation of what I said.

Its not a misrepresentation. Its an exact quote. A misrepresentation would be if I argued your words to mean something different from what they did. 
Pointing out that a subsection of your words contradicts your overriding point is not misrepresenting the point. Its showing the contradiction inside it.

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There were other words which followed the "not a lie" part which you seemingly overlooked and which have bearing on them. Here's the entire quote for you:

Please take the bolded into account.

I didn't overlook them. The entire gist of your point is that Tyrion is not acting in good faith. I'm pointing out that you even admit that he's not lying. You just say he's not being absolutely truthful here and therefore that makes it bad faith.

But I don't think you are applying the terms fairly - I could say "in good faith" as a joke, but I don't believe you are operating in bad faith and ... well, there's been a lot of jumping to false conclusions here through not reading precisely already and even pointing out the inherent joke here is a little bit of a risk. 

"Good Faith"
Good faith, in human interactions, is a sincere intention to be fair, open, and honest, regardless of the outcome of the interaction. - Wikipedia (feel free to use another this was easiest)

Nowhere does that say you have to have full disclosure of everything. Honest means don't tell lies, don't trick or deceive - not give your life story, explain every detail of every thought and intention, open your books, your private diary, give your bank account passwords etc etc. At least, not without being asked - and sometimes not even then. There are things we all have that are not appropriate to be forced to share during a good faith interaction.
There is no trickery her on Tyrion's part, no deceit. He's not trying to get Sansa to agree she should do this - her agreement is irrelevant and/or already secured. All he's doing is trying to make things easier for her, to give her a point of commonality. He's not a master psychologist messing with her head here, he's a human being trying to be as nice to her as he can.
And its the truth. You yourself say you can't characterize that as lying. Its not all of the truth, the absolute truth, but thats not what is required for good faith. And nor is it what is normal in human interactions, especially brief ones in difficult circumstances.

On 4/10/2020 at 8:47 AM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

1) He's presenting himself as unwilling so Sansa won't think he's just a grasping Lannister who is continuing her family's destruction by annexing Winterfell on behalf of the Lannisters. He also has a strong tendency to cast himself as the victim.

Thats a possible reading, and probably at least part of the truth.
Its also true that he isn't just a grasping Lannister intent on destroying her family and seizing Winterfell. He truly doesn't want this, argued against it for a long time, told us what he really wanted (which isn't this) and his behaviour afterward shows definitively that he's more than just a grasping Lannister intent on destroying her family and seizing Winterfell. Its not necessarily the whole truth - Winterfell is a tempting prize for him for sure. But its still truth.
Its also a possible reading, that he's just trying to be a nice human being in a difficult circumstance and make this as easy for her as possible. Given his behavior at the banquet, and the end result of the night, thats a reading that has a fair bit of textual support. 
Its certainly true that its 'open' to her (note how open-ness is one of the characteristics of good faith). It shows her some of his vulnerability, which is not something he has to do at this time. 

As always with human interactions, its almost certainly a complex mix of several parts.

I think reading it as only a cruel deception to Sansa is not borne out by how the evening ended and his behavior to her before this day and after this day. 

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2) It isn't 100% truthful for him to say he's reluctant because he both does and doesn't want to marry her. He correctly sees it for the act of war that it is and he's rightly disturbed by the age disparity. Yet, there are tangible rewards that he covets.

His human heart is in conflict.

Indeed. 
But "100% truthful" is not a reasonable requirement to put on him. Thats simply not how humans interact - ever - and its simply not possible in a momentary  pause outside the altar, with Cersei and Joffrey hovering a few feet away.

[BlackLightning]

On 4/10/2020 at 6:22 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

I agree with you mostly, until here. I don't think he is more at fault than the people that actually did this to her & forced her into it. That doesn't make much sense to me. 

I think his motivation were to help himself & his family both & don't think that is a bad thing, in & of itself. 

Why does this make Tyrion worse? I agree it makes the situation worse & more horrendous for Sansa but I don't see how knowing these things make Tyrion's decision worse. 

What from the text makes you think he is falsely rationalizing this & that he knows he is? 

I don't think they do. It wasn't a matter of his feelings but of political gain for himself & his family. How has he shown his feelings matter more than his families & Sansa's? I think he has shown a great regard for Sansa & (some) of his family. 

He doesn't go through with the consummation, against his own feelings & his father's wishes, for Sansa & her well-being. 

I disagree but anyway it goes 'honor' in this case is a matter of opinion & it can & is argued that it was honorable to offer her the choice not marry him, to refuse to consummate against his father & other ridicule. 

That doesn't make much sense. The Bolton's hold WF now. Does that mean there will be no justice for the RW & Ned Stark? 

Also, Tyrion can't be blamed for everything everyone in his family has done. He played no part in the RW or Ned's beheading. 

Tyrion definitely benefits/benefitted from the RW, the sack of Winterfell, the "death" of Sansa's brothers and Ned's beheading. Directly. Because with Sansa's family dead and Tyrion as her husband, what rightfully belongs to Sansa as a member of House Stark now belongs to Tyrion and -- by extension -- House Lannister.

Tyrion is more at fault than Cersei and Joffrey in this case because Cersei and Joffrey are literally just soldiers in this. They were given orders that Sansa must marry Tyrion and they obey said orders. Cersei makes it clear on multiple occasions that she never approved of the Tyrion/Sansa union and that things would be different if it were up to her. Why? Because it's both a bad match on so many levels and it's an appallingly low-blow...even Cersei knows that! Joffrey goes along with it because he's a depraved sadist who enjoys torturing Sansa. Neither Cersei nor Joffrey had any choice in the matter.

Tyrion did have a choice and he chose wrong. He made his decision not out of a desire to help his family (not once does he think that) or make his father proud. He does it out of selfish ambition for himself. He wants to make himself feel and look good, he wants to feel loved; that's why he doesn't force or compel Sansa to have sex with him. It's not because he wanted to spite his father; he wants to feel loved. Sansa is a means to an end; an instrument who will (hopefully in his mind) give him love and help him love himself. Because if he did force himself on Sansa, he wouldn't feel bad about himself and he wouldn't feel loved. He would feel feared and hated and Tyrion has had enough of that.

Tyrion is knowingly supporting a regime that is not only rotten but is illegitimate. He knows the right of it but he chooses to go along because he benefits personally.

The Boltons weren't supposed to have Winterfell. They were supposed to have Arya and the Wardenship of the North until Tyrion and Sansa's son came of age. Winterfell was supposed to go to Tyrion by way of Sansa.

If Tyrion had his way, he would be Lord of Winterfell without having to be afraid about the people of the North wanting to avenge the Red Wedding.

Again....Tyrion doesn't care about getting justice for Ned Stark or the Red Wedding. As Sansa's husband, he could definitely position himself to making her life better, avenging his in-laws who were wrongfully and brutally murdered and aiding the Northmen. But he chooses to support a king that he hates. Why? Because he wants to feel good and the power and clout he enjoys in King's Landing makes him feel good.

It's literally in the text. Tyrion is self-deceptive to the core. He thinks everyone picks on him because he's a dwarf and that being a drunken, whore-mongering man with a darkly cunning mind shouldn't be an issue. But it is an issue because who likes drunken, scheming whore-mongerers? That's right other drunken, scheming whoremongerers.

Tyrion is so self-deceptive that he ends up proving everyone right.

• He feeds the poor people of King's Landing with the human flesh of one of the people he didn't like
• He gives the murderous mountain clans of the Vale swords so that they can rob, rape, torture and kill the Valemen...all so he can get back at Lysa Arryn (despite the fact that she treated him rather fairly)
• He brings said clansmen into a city where the clansmen are viewed as barbarians and probably act like barbarians. If they cause any problems or disturb the peace, then it makes him look bad.
• He does not hesitate to threaten Tommen his own nephew (who isn't even 10) with severe bodily harm for the sake of a prostitute he hardly knows
• He takes the life and livelihood of his nephew into his hands and treats it so cavalierly, somehow not seeing how other people can misconstrue that

[corbon]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion definitely benefits/benefitted from the RW, the sack of Winterfell, the "death" of Sansa's brothers and Ned's beheading. Directly. Because with Sansa's family dead and Tyrion as her husband, what rightfully belongs to Sansa as a member of House Stark now belongs to Tyrion and -- by extension -- House Lannister.

HAs anyone argued that he does not benefit from the wedding?

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion is more at fault than Cersei and Joffrey in this case because Cersei and Joffrey are literally just soldiers in this. They were given orders that Sansa must marry Tyrion and they obey said orders. Cersei makes it clear on multiple occasions that she never approved of the Tyrion/Sansa union and that things would be different if it were up to her.

Can you show that please? I can't find it.
I could see Cersei being disappointed in this match - not for Sansa, but because she hates Tyrion so much and dislikes anything positive for him. She;d rather he be given a Tanda, for example. If anything at all.

But Cersei and Joffrey both take positive delight in this event, and torturing Sansa over it - to the extent that its somewhat surprising to see someone argue "they are just soldiers following orders".

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why? Because it's both a bad match on so many levels and it's an appallingly low-blow...even Cersei knows that! 

Cersei doesn;t give a shit about Sansa, so why would a low blow concern her?
And a low blow against Tyrion would delight her!

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Joffrey goes along with it because he's a depraved sadist who enjoys torturing Sansa. Neither Cersei nor Joffrey had any choice in the matter.

Joffrey is the King. He's literally the one enforcing it and he's delighted as it gives him the chance to torture Sansa before the wedding and, he expects, rape and abuse her after the wedding - and all the while he still gets to marry someone else instead.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion did have a choice and he chose wrong. He made his decision not out of a desire to help his family (not once does he think that) or make his father proud. He does it out of selfish ambition for himself.

Ahh. So of all these competing motivations, for and against, you know the only one that mattered.
Its funny how he argued against this repeatedly - but his only concern is selfish ambition.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He wants to make himself feel and look good, he wants to feel loved; that's why he doesn't force or compel Sansa to have sex with him.

Thats a bad thing?

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's not because he wanted to spite his father;

No one suggested it was.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

he wants to feel loved. Sansa is a means to an end; an instrument who will (hopefully in his mind) give him love and help him love himself. 

How evil of him!

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Because if he did force himself on Sansa, he wouldn't feel bad about himself and he wouldn't feel loved. He would feel feared and hated and Tyrion has had enough of that.

Umm, you know he's already feared and hated. And still, even after refusing to touch her, feared and hated. 
So, y'know, that didn't get him anywhere did it? But he's still holding to that promise. regardless

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If Tyrion had his way, he would be Lord of Winterfell without having to be afraid about the people of the North wanting to avenge the Red Wedding.

I think if Tyrion has his way he'd be Lord of Casterly Rock.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Again....Tyrion doesn't care about getting justice for Ned Stark or the Red Wedding.

Should he? Those things were done to others, by others, what do they have to do with him?

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

all so he can get back at Lysa Arryn (despite the fact that she treated him rather fairly)

These are not the sort of statements that help convince people.
 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion definitely benefits/benefitted from the RW, the sack of Winterfell, the "death" of Sansa's brothers and Ned's beheading. Directly. Because with Sansa's family dead and Tyrion as her husband, what rightfully belongs to Sansa as a member of House Stark now belongs to Tyrion and -- by extension -- House Lannister.

I'm not sure what difference this makes to the topic at hand, but yes, I agree, he benefits from these things by extension. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion is more at fault than Cersei and Joffrey in this case because Cersei and Joffrey are literally just soldiers in this.

I disagree 100%. Cersei & Joffrey are the ones that physically forced Sansa to this wedding. Second to Tywin I think they are probably the most to blame. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

They were given orders that Sansa must marry Tyrion and they obey said orders.

I don't recall any such orders. Do you have a quote for that? I do recall Tyrion being given orders. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Cersei makes it clear on multiple occasions that she never approved of the Tyrion/Sansa union and that things would be different if it were up to her.

Where does she do this? It's been a while since I've read the entire series but I don't recall one such instance. Do you have a quote or page #'s for this also? 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why? Because it's both a bad match on so many levels and it's an appallingly low-blow...even Cersei knows that! 

Again, I don't recall this but have a hard time believing any objections Cersei might have would be on the grounds that it is a low blow. What are the "so many levels" Cersei believes it's a bad match on? 

Let's assume for a second this is true, why would we take Cersei's word that it is a bad match & a low blow anyway? 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Joffrey goes along with it because he's a depraved sadist who enjoys torturing Sansa. Neither Cersei nor Joffrey had any choice in the matter.

Doesn't this seem contradictory? Does Joffrey go along because he is depraved or because he had no choice? Joffrey is the King, he certainly has a choice. Cersei not as much, but I don't recall her giving one indication that she finds anything other than satisfaction in forcing Sansa to marry against her will. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion did have a choice and he chose wrong.

This is a matter of opinion but I disagree. To clarify - I agree he had some choices but I disagree he chose wrong. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He made his decision not out of a desire to help his family (not once does he think that) or make his father proud.

What difference does that make? It does help his family. Tyrion & Tywin both know that. Would his decision be better in your eyes if he had done so solely to help his family or to make his father proud? 

 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He does it out of selfish ambition for himself. He wants to make himself feel and look good, he wants to feel loved; that's why he doesn't force or compel Sansa to have sex with him.

It isn't only ambition & again, I don't know why this matters or why it's a point against him. The text is pretty clear on why he doesn't force Sansa against his own wishes - it is for Sansa, because he knows she doesn't want to. Why would it be a bad thing to want to feel good, do good, feel loved? 

Again, let's assume this is all true. Would it make his actions better, in your eyes, if he doesn't force her for some reason other than this? 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's not because he wanted to spite his father; he wants to feel loved.

I never argued it was to spite his father. Of course he wants to feel loved... who doesn't? I gather from the surrounding text that you are using this as a negative point towards Tyrion but I would contend that it is a positive point toward Tyrion, or at the very least it isn't a negative one. Why would it be? Why would not doing something out of spite but because he wants to feel loved = he is wrong or has mistreated Sansa in some way? 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Sansa is a means to an end; an instrument who will (hopefully in his mind) give him love and help him love himself.

Are you arguing for or against Tyrion? I'm honestly confused by this statement. Tyrion wanted this marriage to provide him with someone to love & someone to love him. That is a good thing but at the end of the day it matters not in regards to his treatment of her. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Because if he did force himself on Sansa, he wouldn't feel bad about himself and he wouldn't feel loved. He would feel feared and hated and Tyrion has had enough of that.

I assume that's a typo & should read he would feel bad about himself. Sure, wouldn't most people with a conscience feel bad about themselves if they forced themselves onto someone else? Why is wanting to be loved, wanting to feel good about himself, not wanting to be feared or hated a bad thing? Those are all good things. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion is knowingly supporting a regime that is not only rotten but is illegitimate. He knows the right of it but he chooses to go along because he benefits personally.

Just above you argue against Tyrion for not participating in this marriage to help his family, even though it does tremendously help his family, now you are arguing against him for supporting his family. Should he have supported them or not, in your opinion? 

If you believe Cersei & Joffrey had no choice in the matter simply because Tywin "ordered" them to do this (something I don't recall at all) then how in the world can Tyrion be held responsible for, not only the marriage - that he was ordered to participate in, but also for not going against his entire family? I would imagine his reasons behind not going against his family are much more than benefitting personally. They would include not having a death wish, because orchestrating the downfall of his family would end up getting him killed, and also wanting to survive, because without his family he would have no means of survival. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The Boltons weren't supposed to have Winterfell. They were supposed to have Arya and the Wardenship of the North until Tyrion and Sansa's son came of age. Winterfell was supposed to go to Tyrion by way of Sansa.

Yep. I don't want to put words in your mouth here but are you saying that it is Tyrion's fault that the Boltons have WF as well? If not, I'm not sure what to make of this sentence. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If Tyrion had his way, he would be Lord of Winterfell without having to be afraid about the people of the North wanting to avenge the Red Wedding.

Got any quotes or evidence to back that up? First & foremost this wasn't Tyrion's way, but Tywin's way. I don't see why it would make any difference to him if the North wants to avenge the RW & would be curious to know how you came to this conclusion. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Again....Tyrion doesn't care about getting justice for Ned Stark or the Red Wedding.

Why would he? Why should he? 

Tyrion doesn't condone Ned's beheading or the RW either so it's possible he would at someone point care about getting justice for those things but as it stands he would have to be a bumbling idiot to go against the crown to avenge Sansa's family. He has no means to do this. That's like saying Sansa is wrong because she hasn't tried to avenge her father or family - she has no means to do so. Tyrion doesn't either. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

As Sansa's husband, he could definitely position himself to making her life better,

And he does in every possible way available to him. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

avenging his in-laws who were wrongfully and brutally murdered and aiding the Northmen

I find this a little ridiculous tbh. With what armies do you propose Tyrion avenge his in-laws with? 

What could he have realistically done to right this wrong? 

Possibly, at some point, if he eventually held the North with Sansa, he could try something. But that didn't turn out so well for Robb or Ned so I wouldn't blame him if he didn't. He has no obligation to die to avenge Ned & the Starks, regardless of who he is married to. Not to mention this would mean not only going against his own family, but the crown as well. 

I want the Starks avenged as much as the next guy but Tyrion is not & never has been in any position to do so. He can no more avenge them than Sansa can. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But he chooses to support a king that he hates. Why? Because he wants to feel good and the power and clout he enjoys in King's Landing makes him feel good.

Evidence please. I think you have made many presumptions as to what Tyrion is feeling & his motivations for things, with no textual evidence that I'm aware of, & against the textual evidence I am aware of. 

Sure it could be because he wants to feel good or it could be because he doesn't want to be dead. I think it's probably more of the latter & less of the former. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's literally in the text. Tyrion is self-deceptive to the core. He thinks everyone picks on him because he's a dwarf and that being a drunken, whore-mongering man with a darkly cunning mind shouldn't be an issue. But it is an issue because who likes drunken, scheming whore-mongerers? That's right other drunken, scheming whoremongerers.

Where in the text? To be clear, I don't dispute all of this but would like to know where you come to the conclusions that you do. 

He certainly consorts with some whores but he is hardly the only one to do so. People do pick on him because he is a dwarf. More than pick on him, they get negative stereotypes in their heads about him because he is a dwarf. 

I don't think he was much of a drunk before he kills his father, where does it say that? 

To the bolded... Jon likes Tyrion, he isn't a scheming whore-monger or a drunk. Bronn seems to like him well enough, he may consort with whores but I don't think he is a drunk or particularly scheming. Mormont, Shae, The clansmen, Tysha, Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella...  None of them are scheming whore mongers & only possibly some of the clansmen are drunks. Who are the scheming, drunken, whore-mongers that like Tyrion? I can't think of one tbh. It seems to me that most of the people who do not like Tyrion are the 'bad' ones. Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey... 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He feeds the poor people of King's Landing with the human flesh of one of the people he didn't like

He does, but it isn't because he doesn't like the man. Also, what bearing does this have on the topic at hand; Tyrion & Sansa? 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He gives the murderous mountain clans of the Vale swords so that they can rob, rape, torture and kill the Valemen...all so he can get back at Lysa Arryn (despite the fact that she treated him rather fairly)

It's hard to argue in good faith when you state things like this. Lysa held him in a sky cell, trying to force or coerce a confession out of him, for a crime she, herself committed. By what stretch of the imagination is that treating him fairly? Again, nothing to do with Tyrion & Sansa. 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He brings said clansmen into a city where the clansmen are viewed as barbarians and probably act like barbarians. If they cause any problems or disturb the peace, then it makes him look bad.

So? What difference does it make how they are viewed? Did they cause any problems? If not what is the point? 

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He does not hesitate to threaten Tommen his own nephew (who isn't even 10) with severe bodily harm for the sake of a prostitute he hardly knows

Yep, he does so to prevent the severe abuse of a woman. Not saying this was a shining moment but he did not harm his nephew. Still has nothing to do with Sansa. 

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

He takes the life and livelihood of his nephew into his hands and treats it so cavalierly, somehow not seeing how other people can misconstrue that

? when? How? 

This wasn't a thread meant to name all of Tyrion's transgressions, or meant to argue Tyrion is such an honorable fellow. This is specifically irt the situation with Sansa. The lot of your post has nothing to do with Sansa or their wedding day & night at all.