Rogar Baratheon - Do You Think Jaehaerys did the right thing?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

It's hard to ask this since speculation can take you anywhere, but I'm curious about this, I always have ever since I finished reading Fire & Blood. Rogar Baratheon went over and above his place several times with Jaehaerys, and is guilty of starting at least one sinister plot against the king (whether he sent a girl to seduce Jaehaerys is up for debate, of course). And while we know that things did work out in the end for him and Jaehaerys, I wonder what, assuming you didn't know how things would turn out, do you think he displayed the right kind of mercy, or the wrong amount? Could he have been harsher, or kinder?

[James Steller]

Orryn Baratheon might have been sent to the Wall as a warning to Rogar, but I think Jaehaerys handled it perfectly.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Well, any kinder and he would have looked worse then his father, something Jaehaerys clearly knew was dangerous, especially given his marriage. His brother tried to kidnap the second in line to the Throne, so he could not go unpunished. Out of all the punishments, 10 years in exile seems kinda tame. Now execution/the Wall/banishment would have posed a serious problem of succession. Rogar was married to Jaehaerys's mom, had been a firm supporter of him, all in all he had a decent track record. His brothers had been involved in the same conspiracy he had, but they hadn't previously showed their loyalty. So out of all the Baratheon brothers Rogar was the best. Not to mention that killing/banishing Rogar would have made his heir pretty pissed and more likely to go against Jaehaerys. Revoking Storm's End was clearly out of the question, given that the rest of the Lords Paramount would call tyrant and go to war, so his best option was to leave Rogar as is. He could have required a hostage but he instead both showed mercy and flexed his power with his not so subtle ,,rebel and I'll make SE a second Harrenhal" message. So all in all his course of action was probably for the best. He didn't ruffle any feathers, however he successfully stopped the plot, and secured the loyalty of Rogar (it doesn't take a genius to figure that pardoning a man who was looking at the Wall as a good alternative will make him quite loyal), while also flexing his muscles.

[Lord Varys]

On an individual level it wasn't bad ... with hindsight this should have been the moment the Baratheons were crushed. They are just too belligerent and quarrelsome and fed up on queer ideas of grandeur to really be loyal lords and allies of the Crown.

The message FaB sends is that only the dragons kept them in line. And their track record is the worst of all the great houses in the loyalty department. Men like Borros Baratheon even turned their back on their kin.

There is no indication that any great house would have considered it 'tyranny' if the Baratheons had lost Storm's End over this ... Donnel Hightower even expected Jaehaerys I to execute Lord Rogar over this.

And there must have been Durrandon relations in the Stormlands - men who would be happy if the bastards were thrown out and replaced with a family of nobler blood. Even if Orys was a Targaryen on his father's side ... he wasn't anybody on his mother's side, it seems.

One has to keep in mind that this was really the ultimate betrayal. And coming from your own stepfather this kind of thing would have hurt much more.

We don't really know what transpired but I'd not be surprised if Alyssa begged Jaehaerys for Rogar's life ... and part of the reason he sent her back with Rogar to Storm's End was because he was angry over this.

[Canon Claude]

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

We don't really know what transpired but I'd not be surprised if Alyssa begged Jaehaerys for Rogar's life ... and part of the reason he sent her back with Rogar to Storm's End was because he was angry over this.

Oooh, that's a really good point. But do you think Alyssa was begging him to spare Rogar's life? I always thought that Jaehaerys wanted her to go be with her husband and she was pleading with him not to send her back to Rogar, and Jaehaerys only managed to get her agreement by promising that Rogar would never mistreat her again.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that any great house would have considered it 'tyranny' if the Baratheons had lost Storm's End over this ... Donnel Hightower even expected Jaehaerys I to execute Lord Rogar over this.

You seem to mistake execution for revocation. Execute someone guilty of betrayal and nobody bats an eye. Revoke a Lord Paramountship and your vassals are likely to lose their shit as they'd rightly feel threatened. It's a normal feudalistic response against centralization in a feudal society.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't really know what transpired but I'd not be surprised if Alyssa begged Jaehaerys for Rogar's life ... and part of the reason he sent her back with Rogar to Storm's End was because he was angry over this.

I don't think she had to beg. As I pointed out Jaehaerys path of showing power through mercy was probably the optimal course, and he seemed genuinely concerned about his mother's happiness, and probably wanted for her to have a happy fulfilling marriage, something she seemed to have gotten in the end.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

On an individual level it wasn't bad ... with hindsight this should have been the moment the Baratheons were crushed. They are just too belligerent and quarrelsome and fed up on queer ideas of grandeur to really be loyal lords and allies of the Crown.

The message FaB sends is that only the dragons kept them in line. And their track record is the worst of all the great houses in the loyalty department. Men like Borros Baratheon even turned their back on their kin.

 

I'd say the Greyjoys had a far worse record than the Baratheons. Same with the Martells, if we're being technical. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I'd say the Greyjoys had a far worse record than the Baratheons.

Again, not a lot of alternatives. What can you do? Replace them with another Ironborn house? You fix nothing and get the Ironborn to be even more bitter. Put a green Lord as Lord of The Iron Isles? The Ironborn would rebel first chance they get.

4 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Same with the Martells, if we're being technical. 

Excuse me after bending the knee, when weren't they loyal. They kept faith with house Targaryen even after they were overthrown.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Again, not a lot of alternatives. What can you do? Replace them with another Ironborn house? You fix nothing and get the Ironborn to be even more bitter. Put a green Lord as Lord of The Iron Isles? The Ironborn would rebel first chance they get.

Excuse me after bending the knee, when weren't they loyal. They kept faith with house Targaryen even after they were overthrown.

I never said they needed to be removed. I simply disputed Varys' claim that the Baratheons were the most troublesome and disloyal great lords in Westeros. Though frankly, the Ironborn were lucky that the Targaryens never lost patience with them and just turned all their islands into a huge Harrenhal (though that's hardly a reasonable or realistic action).

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I never said they needed to be removed. I simply disputed Varys' claim that the Baratheons were the most troublesome and disloyal great lords in Westeros.

Fair enough.

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Though frankly, the Ironborn were lucky that the Targaryens never lost patience with them and just turned all their islands into a huge Harrenhal.

Honestly that's probably what Maegor would have done.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Honestly that's probably what Maegor would have done.

And yet he didn't. But the Ironborn seem truly unable to shake their raiding past, even when they have dragons to deal with if they misbehave. That kind of stubbornness would need to be broken in a truly extreme way, which, as you say, would require a Maegor to do, and it would doubtless prove Maegor's undoing (except the Westerlands and the Northmen would probably have cheered Maegor for that).

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Honestly, Rogar Baratheon was a lot more trouble than he was worth. Jaehaerys should have gotten rid of him. If he didn't want to execute him, then the Wall would have been a good place for him to go.

The only thing I got from FaB was that the Baratheons always toed a fine line between loyalty and treason, but when push came to shove, most of the time they stepped over the line.

It just seems like Robert's Rebellion was building for something like 250 years.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And yet he didn't. But the Ironborn seem truly unable to shake their raiding past

Well, the Iron Isles are a shit hole, you can't really expect them to turn to agriculture or mining. Their only peaceful means of prosperity are fishing and trading, which they do quite a lot of in peace time, which does mean that they're ready to go reaving at any time. So if you wanted to force them to abandon the Old Way for good, you would have to eliminate the only 2 ways they can survive during peace time. Their only way to abandon the Old Way, I would say is for a string of lords Paramount to act like Quelon and make the Iron Isles so prosperous from trading that war becomes very bad for them. It would require them to get very rich from trading, something that is quite possible were they to discover a Western route to Essos. Therefore the best chance is the Farwynds. 

[Canon Claude]

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Honestly, Rogar Baratheon was a lot more trouble than he was worth. Jaehaerys should have gotten rid of him. If he didn't want to execute him, then the Wall would have been a good place for him to go.

Except that this means Borys, whom we know was a volatile man, and an eventual traitor, would have become Lord Baratheon instead. 

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

The only thing I got from FaB was that the Baratheons always toed a fine line between loyalty and treason, but when push came to shove, most of the time they stepped over the line.

It just seems like Robert's Rebellion was building for something like 250 years.

Personally, I think more often than not, the Baratheons had good reasons when they were pushed into treason. Lyonel Baratheon was snubbed badly by Aegon's son, and that kind of dishonour was a tall order in Westeros. Robert Baratheon suffered an even worse betrayal by the Mad King, sentenced to death for the simple crime of being engaged to the woman allegedly stolen by Rhaegar. Robert only ever betrayed the Iron Throne as a response to an unjust and frequently insane family.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Oooh, that's a really good point. But do you think Alyssa was begging him to spare Rogar's life? I always thought that Jaehaerys wanted her to go be with her husband and she was pleading with him not to send her back to Rogar, and Jaehaerys only managed to get her agreement by promising that Rogar would never mistreat her again.

Well, this is all conjecture, of course, but as it stands I'd say that Alyssa Velaryon was truly in love with Rogar Baratheon ... and perhaps deluded herself into believing that he had the same feelings for her. Right until the end she is always trying to accomodate and please him. It seems like he is the strong one and she is the weak one, but it is actually reversed.

If one goes with such an interpretation then her breaking into tears is her first seeing Rogar for what he truly is ... and, because she loves him, this breaks her heart. This is also something we can draw from her breakdown after Rogar has been dealt with. She went through so much and dealt with so many challenges successfully that she must have been really in love with Rogar to give a damn about this. She suffered no breakdowns when he brother-in-law started to murder her family.

Jaehaerys I really has no good reason to see his mother as the main villain in this plot. All she did was to try to stop his marriage - which wasn't nice but hardly treason. Rogar tried to depose an anointed king and he tried to abduct the king's niece two times.

We have no clue what transpired behind closed doors, but I think the idea that Alyssa did convince Jaehaerys to spare Rogar works pretty fine. The idea that Jaehaerys I would have forced his mother to live with Rogar if she had not wanted to do is also not very likely. We can also expect that they would have found a different solution. Alyssa could have remained at court or she could have went back to Driftmark to live with her family there.

Jaehaerys would have a good reason to be disappointed in his mother, but his marriage went through and his mother had accepted that even before Rogar tried to stage his coup. Thus we have to ask ourselves - what exactly was the deep problem Jaehaerys and Alysanne had with their mother?

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You seem to mistake execution for revocation. Execute someone guilty of betrayal and nobody bats an eye. Revoke a Lord Paramountship and your vassals are likely to lose their shit as they'd rightly feel threatened. It's a normal feudalistic response against centralization in a feudal society.

I don't see anyone talking about tyranny when the Lothstons or Harroways or Darklyns were extinguished. And I'd maintain that the Lords of Harrenhal do count as much as 'great lords' as the Lords of Oldtown or the Lords of Storm's End.

Also you have to keep in mind that in 50 AC the Baratheons were not exactly an established house with tradition. There had been only 2-3 lords of that house. And Rogar's brothers seem to have been all Baratheons left in 50 AC. As they could be seen as Rogar's co-conspirators that in and of itself could justify them not being allowed to succeed Rogar as lord.

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think she had to beg. As I pointed out Jaehaerys path of showing power through mercy was probably the optimal course, and he seemed genuinely concerned about his mother's happiness, and probably wanted for her to have a happy fulfilling marriage, something she seemed to have gotten in the end.

That would presuppose that Jaehaerys already know what he would do with Rogar when he returned to court ... which we simply do not know. It is certainly possible that he intended to execute him - to show he wasn't as weak as his father - or to at least force him to go to the Wall so that his mother was free of this man. Keep in mind that the Baratheons themselves consider the possibility that Jaehaerys would take Rogar's head to give it to his mother as a gift. This wasn't a minor affair.

It might very well be that Alyssa wanted to continue her marriage with Rogar even after she realized that he never loved her the way she did - because no man loving his wife would have ever so much as contemplated the kind of betrayal Rogar was suggesting at the council table - and that only this desire caused Jaehaerys to be as merciful as he was.

Else we would have to interpret Alyssa returning to Storm's End as a punishment - which is very odd since Alyssa was the loyal one and Rogar the foul traitor.

19 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I'd say the Greyjoys had a far worse record than the Baratheons. Same with the Martells, if we're being technical. 

I was speaking from the Targaryen view - here so far we have Rogar, Borros, Cassandra, Lyonel and Robert (one could also count Maris, although she was just very nasty). That track record is not matched by either the Greyjoys (two instances, if you count Dalton as a rebel) or the Martells (one instance, if you consider it treason that they turned against the Young Dragon).

Although I'd not really count the Greyjoys as 'great lords', anyway. The Ironborn are a bunch of backwater pirates which do not play a role unless Westeros is ravaged by infighting and other calamities.

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The only thing I got from FaB was that the Baratheons always toed a fine line between loyalty and treason, but when push came to shove, most of the time they stepped over the line.

It just seems like Robert's Rebellion was building for something like 250 years.

That is what I meant with the entire 'with hindsight' part above. The Baratheons really are bad business, and it is one of the great parts of FaB to heavily underline that. These people have problematic hereditary traits that make them actually worse than the Targaryens. They have the occasional bad apple, but the Baratheons are much worse by comparison, especially with all the incompetence and the repressed ambition that is strong there. Borys Baratheon essentially seems to be 'the original Stannis'. Rogar is pretty much like Robert and Lyonel. Borros is just a moron, etc.

The overwhelming ugly trait is that they cannot let something go - Rogar couldn't do that, Borys couldn't, Maris and Cassandra couldn't, Borros couldn't on the Kingsroad, Robert, Stannis, Renly also couldn't. These people all reach a point where they no longer see reason and then they either get themselves killed or they kill many other people.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Except that this means Borys, whom we know was a volatile man, and an eventual traitor, would have become Lord Baratheon instead. 

To be sure, Borys actually seems to have tried to get his brother killed to finally become Lord of Storm's End. But perhaps he may have been a loyal lord if the king had stopped Rogar from fathering a son after all?

But as I said, I'd have preferred it if Rogar had been executed or sent to the Wall, and his brothers attainted.

3 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Personally, I think more often than not, the Baratheons had good reasons when they were pushed into treason. Lyonel Baratheon was snubbed badly by Aegon's son, and that kind of dishonour was a tall order in Westeros. Robert Baratheon suffered an even worse betrayal by the Mad King, sentenced to death for the simple crime of being engaged to the woman allegedly stolen by Rhaegar. Robert only ever betrayed the Iron Throne as a response to an unjust and frequently insane family.

It is still a very ugly thing to go to war against a close friend over an issue that wasn't really said friend's fault. Prince Duncan decided not to marry Lyonel's daughter, not King Aegon V.

As with Robert - here you presuppose that the deciding factor in Robert was the execution thing. But there is ample evidence that the Rhaegar-Lyanna thing was what really enraged Robert. It was Rhaegar Robert wanted to kill, it was Rhaegar who caused Robert to hate everything Targaryen (aside from himself and his brothers, apparently). The Mad King doesn't seem to have figured much in his mind as far as we know.

In fact, I'd go with the preliminary assumption that Robert intended to go to war over the Lyanna issue even before Aerys II's message arrived in the Vale - or, if they arrived at the same time (which is possible) - that the thing that enraged him the most was the news about Lya, not the Aerys II stuff. The latter was just what triggered Jon's decision to raise his banners. By that time Robert may have already planned to track down Rhaegar and beat him to a bloody pulp.

[James Steller]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I was speaking from the Targaryen view - here so far we have Rogar, Borros, Cassandra, Lyonel and Robert (one could also count Maris, although she was just very nasty). That track record is not matched by either the Greyjoys (two instances, if you count Dalton as a rebel) or the Martells (one instance, if you consider it treason that they turned against the Young Dragon).

That is what I meant with the entire 'with hindsight' part above. The Baratheons really are bad business, and it is one of the great parts of FaB to heavily underline that. These people have problematic hereditary traits that make them actually worse than the Targaryens. They have the occasional bad apple, but the Baratheons are much worse by comparison, especially with all the incompetence and the repressed ambition that is strong there. Borys Baratheon essentially seems to be 'the original Stannis'. Rogar is pretty much like Robert and Lyonel. Borros is just a moron, etc.

The overwhelming ugly trait is that they cannot let something go - Rogar couldn't do that, Borys couldn't, Maris and Cassandra couldn't, Borros couldn't on the Kingsroad, Robert, Stannis, Renly also couldn't. These people all reach a point where they no longer see reason and then they either get themselves killed or they kill many other people.

I take exception that you’d compare Stannis to Borys. If anything, the person most like Stannis is Aegon III, though Stannis was far more active than Aegon. And frankly, I think it’s unfair to lump Rogar in with Borros and Cassandra. He was brave to rise up against Maegor, and he proved his worth several times as a repented lord. His children also proved true, so he was clearly a good man once you humbled him a bit. Also, for the record, Lyonel didn’t make war on Aegon, he simply renounced his allegiance and friendship. We have no proof that he fought anything but a defensive war against crown forces, and he did agree to a duel as a way of settling things and he also abided by the consequences of losing. 
If we’re talking about the most traitorous great house, it’s not House Baratheon, it’s Hightower. They were the ones who messed with the Targaryens with their support for the Faith, they pushed a bride onto Maegor and antagonized Aenys, they provoked the Dance of the Dragons, they supported the Blackfyres, and they may or may not have killed off the dragons for all we know (though that’s a good thing as far as I’m concerned. House Targaryen deserved its downfall).

[Canon Claude]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

To be sure, Borys actually seems to have tried to get his brother killed to finally become Lord of Storm's End. But perhaps he may have been a loyal lord if the king had stopped Rogar from fathering a son after all?

But as I said, I'd have preferred it if Rogar had been executed or sent to the Wall, and his brothers attainted.

It is still a very ugly thing to go to war against a close friend over an issue that wasn't really said friend's fault. Prince Duncan decided not to marry Lyonel's daughter, not King Aegon V.

As with Robert - here you presuppose that the deciding factor in Robert was the execution thing. But there is ample evidence that the Rhaegar-Lyanna thing was what really enraged Robert. It was Rhaegar Robert wanted to kill, it was Rhaegar who caused Robert to hate everything Targaryen (aside from himself and his brothers, apparently). The Mad King doesn't seem to have figured much in his mind as far as we know.

In fact, I'd go with the preliminary assumption that Robert intended to go to war over the Lyanna issue even before Aerys II's message arrived in the Vale - or, if they arrived at the same time (which is possible) - that the thing that enraged him the most was the news about Lya, not the Aerys II stuff. The latter was just what triggered Jon's decision to raise his banners. By that time Robert may have already planned to track down Rhaegar and beat him to a bloody pulp.

Even if Robert did go to war over Lyanna's disappearance, that's still a valid reason to be upset. Nobody could have assumed that Lyanna ran away willingly (if that's what she did). And Aerys executing both her brother and father doesn't look good either. Even if Robert Baratheon wasn't sentenced to death without a trial (and come on, that's a seriously dick move on top of everything else) I don't think he'd be unjustified in being pissed off. And even if he wasn't, Ned was his brother by deed, and he'd have made all the king's men fight him to the death rather than let them harm Ned.

[AegonTheStoner]

Borys caused problems later, in hindsight he should have been sent to the wall, but realistically Jaehaerys did the smartest thing

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, James Steller said:

I take exception that you’d compare Stannis to Borys. If anything, the person most like Stannis is Aegon III, though Stannis was far more active than Aegon.

Not sure I get that, but you are the weird guy who hates Aegon III so much for some reason, right?

Borys does have the same repressed ambition as Stannis. They both wanted Storm's End - the only difference is that Stannis eventually realized he could have a much better price than just Storm's End. There are parallels there. They are not the same people, of course, but they are similar.

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And frankly, I think it’s unfair to lump Rogar in with Borros and Cassandra. He was brave to rise up against Maegor, and he proved his worth several times as a repented lord. His children also proved true, so he was clearly a good man once you humbled him a bit. 

Rogar was pretty much a windbag. He only rose against Maegor when the man was already falling, not when he was at his height. Where was he when Aegon the Uncrowned was killed?

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Also, for the record, Lyonel didn’t make war on Aegon, he simply renounced his allegiance and friendship. We have no proof that he fought anything but a defensive war against crown forces, and he did agree to a duel as a way of settling things and he also abided by the consequences of losing. 

Why should we take a positive view there? We don't know the details yet, but Lyonel seceding was already treason an act of war.

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If we’re talking about the most traitorous great house, it’s not House Baratheon, it’s Hightower. They were the ones who messed with the Targaryens with their support for the Faith, they pushed a bride onto Maegor and antagonized Aenys, they provoked the Dance of the Dragons, they supported the Blackfyres, and they may or may not have killed off the dragons for all we know (though that’s a good thing as far as I’m concerned. House Targaryen deserved its downfall).

That seems rather odd. The Hightowers were ambitious, not traitors. There is nothing wrong with marrying your daughter to a prince, and no Hightower ever 'antagonized Aenys' - the king had issues with his half-brother's second marriage, too. There is no indication that the Hightowers killed the dragons, and whatever support they gave the Blackfyres we don't really know at that point (nor whether that involved the ruling branch of the house) The Dance of the Dragons was Ser Otto's doing - the ruler of the House, Lord Ormund, had nothing to do with the start of the Dance.

13 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Even if Robert did go to war over Lyanna's disappearance, that's still a valid reason to be upset. Nobody could have assumed that Lyanna ran away willingly (if that's what she did). And Aerys executing both her brother and father doesn't look good either. Even if Robert Baratheon wasn't sentenced to death without a trial (and come on, that's a seriously dick move on top of everything else) I don't think he'd be unjustified in being pissed off. And even if he wasn't, Ned was his brother by deed, and he'd have made all the king's men fight him to the death rather than let them harm Ned.

Robert has no right to dictate to Lyanna Stark who she be with or who she marry. This right would belong to Rickard Stark and perhaps his sons, but not Robert Baratheon. The right to avenge Lyanna's dishonor - assuming Rhaegar actually dishonored her - would also belong to her family, not her future husband.

It seems clear to me that Robert takes his anger there too far. It is this anger over that wound that causes Robert to condone the raping and murdering of women and children (who are his second cousins once removed) and to plot the murder of other innocent people and unborn children in the wound over a decade later.

It is practically the same kind of inability to let something go as was Rogar's obsession with Jaehaerys' marriage. That is a character trait Rogar and Robert shared.

As is the whole windbag thing - Robert and Rogar have the physique of mighty warriors, but they are weak still. Robert turns a blind eye to the plots and cruelties around him and allows himself to be let around by his queen, whereas Rogar's experience at war seems, to our knowledge, pretty much nonexistent and he constantly frets about the cost of going to war than actually leading an army to battle. He ends up being dominated by his wife rather than dominating her when push comes to shove, he cannot face his wife when she is dying (which is his most disgusting trait, I'd say), and he is intimidated by his stepdaughter Rhaena.

But I never said that the Baratheons cannot/do not also have some more justified grievances - rather that there is a clear tendency that they are unruly and a potential danger and should have been dealt with for that reason. After all, if Rogar had been the end of them, nobody would have ever had to suffer Borros and his daughters and Lyonel and Robert.