The Great Parley of Daemon Targaryen

[Daeron the Daring]

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"Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both. In his day there was not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all Westeros. He was made of light and darkness in equal parts. To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains."

Before going into any discussion, I would like to state a few things:
1) I don't want to talk about why X likes the charachter and why Y does not.
2) I will write a smaller essay that mostly will include things that might not everybody knows, but those who think that they know exactly everything are free to jump to the questions. The questions, with my own answers will be written at the bottom.
3) I would like not to head somewhere else but from his first act to his last. I want his arc to be in the middle, to discuss what led him become what he became after all.
4) I would like to discuss his life in several intervals, separated. These intervals would be separated by turning points of his arc or story.
5) After all, all my theorizing and assumption comes from a fan of the character (me), but I don't think I ever became blinded by my fame of him. 
An so it begins.
I. PERIOD: 81AC - 92AC- Just another Prince
Daemon was born in 81AC as the second son on Prince Baelor and Princess Alyssa. He really wasn't a big thing back then, in 81AC, as the second son of the king's second son. But as we know, King Jaeherys was blessed and cursed at the same time with his so many children. He was very-very far in the line of the succession considering that at his birth Crown Prince Aemon, his uncle was still a young man, and capable for ruling. However, the Stranger had different plans, and he was a "common" guest in the Red Keep. 
In 84AC, his mother, Princess Alyssa died after half a year of the birth of her third children, Aegon. Soon, Aegon died too, right before his nameday. The death of these two broke especially Prince Baelon (who could never forget his sister-wife and never planned to marry again), but the two children too, Viserys (age 7) and Daemon (age 3). While Viserys was, Daemon probably wasn't even old enough to remember anything about his mother and younger brother, he later may heard tales and stories from others about how  much her mother loved him and rode her dragon with him when he was born , but that's all he had left of her. I do think the death of her mother left traces on him, even if it is never mentioned.
And then he started growing up. He was at age 11 when his uncle, the Prince of Dragonstone, Aemon died, leaving his dragon, Caraxes, the Blood Wyrm unmounted. At his age, he could have already been squired somewhere, and he could have already showed off his abilities.

II. PERIOD: 92AC - 101AC-A second heir to the heir
This period of Daemon's life is cludy, of course, yet we know about several decisive events that led him where he was in 101AC.
After Aemon's death at a letssay young age, Prince Baelon the Brave was named Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne. The death of Aemon wasn't wished by anyone, yet it put Baelon and his sons in a better position at the court. The same year was born Laena Velaryon.
At this time, Daemon might already dreamed of the throne, being third in the line of the succession was a great position. Once his father is crowned he would be second, and if Viserys makes no male heir, he might achieve his dreams to become king. Maybe he tought it will happen this way.
Later he becomes a dragonrider, just like his brother and father, and of course he rides Caraxes. 
In 97AC he becomes a knight, and gets married to Rhea Royce (we know how that marriage worked). In the same year Princess Rhaenyra was born.
In 100AC, Queen Alysanne died, so did Prince Baelon in 101AC, and the question of succession came up once again.
And as we know, in 101AC, the Old King Jaehaerys I convoked the Great Council to discuss the question of inheritance. We know how it ended, Viserys was named heir to Jaehaerys. Somewhen after Baelon's death Jaehaerys give Daemon Darksister.

III. PERIOD:101AC - 103AC-The heir to the heir
To protect his brother's rights, Daemon even created a smaller army to defend his brother's birthright.
In 103AC, King Jaehaerys died, and so was Viserys crowned.

IV. PERIOD: 103AC - 105AC-The heir to the Iron Throne
With Viserys crowned, Daemon became the heir. Yet Viserys did not give his own brother the title of Prince of Dragonstone. This title was always given to the heir, yet it was given to noone, Viserys left it for his own son.
Even if Daemon had his own "profit" with always standing beside his brother, this was too selfish from Viserys. Naming Daemon Prince of Dragonstone wouldn't mean he would be his successor, but it would have granted him a position for a lifetime, not like those empty titles. Daemon was the first in history not getting this title while deserving it.He also inpregnated Mysaria, but the child died on the sea, where Mysaria was sent by Viserys because Daemon gave an egg to his unborn child, and of course Daemon saw Viserys guilty in the death of his unborn kid.
Yet, of course, he was guilty too for what he did and said, but both of the brother's actions led to Viserys naming Rhaenyra his heir and Princess of Dragonstone.

V. PERIOD: 105AC - 111AC - King of the Steptones
After leaving King's Landing, with Lord Corlys ( in who Daemon found a good friend and a second father too) they began to conquer the Stepstones.
But the year 111AC came, and Daemon realised that all this meant nothing to him, and went back to the Court for apologies.
Some tought that he might have changed, but the same person that left, went back too. Noone tought that he only went back to surround Rhaenyra, but this did not stop him to do so. For me it is clear that he took her virginity, because Viserys literally wanted to execute him (I wonder how knowing this Daemon recommended a marriage instead), the only reason that Daemon got exile instead was that he was kin to Viserys.

//Now, a little analyzation about what we heard. Daemon gained his recognition for his great abilities, and of course gained his dark reputation for digusting personality. If we watch his life from his birth to this point, I doubt we will find anyone more selfish than him. But the things he did to Rhaenyra may have branged him to the lowest point of his life. He might have realised what he had became, but he also knew that it was too late for apologies.//

VI. PERIOD: 111AC - 115AC - Exile
Now, this is a black hole, we know nothing about him in this period.

VII. PERIOD: 115AC - 120AC - Second marriage
When Rhea Royce died in 115AC, Daemon went to Runestone to claim her lands, but the exile was valid for the entire continent, and House Royce did not want him there anyway, so the same year he went to Driftmark.
Well, on Driftmark, he did kill Laena's betrothed, and married her, the rider of Vhagar, whom formerly his father, Baelon rode. But being on Westeros wasn't allowed for him, neither was marrying there. So they went to the Free Cities.
In the same year were born their daugthers, Bhaela and Rhaena, and so was mercy given to him so his children could get the royal blessing.
We know nothing about the next four years, only that Laena and Rhaenyra became close friends. But Laena died in 120AC, and so did Laenor, Rhaenyra's wife.

VIII. PERIOD: 120AC - 128AC - Third marriage
In less than 6 month, still in 120AC, Daemon remarried to Rhaenyra in secret. In the end, things ended up exactly on the place Viserys was trying to avoid. Until 128AC came, he lived his life, and got two sons with Rhaenyra:Aegon and Viserys. We don't know how, we don't know if he changed, but we can conclude a few things about his last two years.

IX. PERIOD: 128AC - 130AC
Of course Daemon was part of almost every horrible event that happened during the Dance, but of course the Blacks were the ones whom got provocated by the death of Lucerys.
The more interesting thing is his time spent on Maidenpool and Harrenhall. He had a relationship with Nettles, which ended with Rhaenyra's order. There he said that

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"A queen's words, a whore's work."

sentence.
Then Daemon flew to Harrenhal, and fought Aemond, but before the fight, he had this little chat with Aemond:
 

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Daemon: Were I not alone, you would not have come.
Aemond: Yet you are, and here I am. You have lived too long, uncle.
Daemon: On that much we agree.

X. PERIOD: 130AC - ? - Potential afterlife
Did he survive the fight? His body was never found. The greenseers from The Isle of Faces saved him?
Who knows...

QUESTIONS:

1. Jaehaerys and Alysanne was so religious. Daemon's morality was clear to everyone, why they let Daemon rot if they take care of their children so hard?
-I Don't know
2. Baelon was a great person, but was he a good father? Why he let his son choose this path?
-I dunno.
3.Lady Laena wouldn't herited anything, so if not for wealth, then why did Daemon marry her?
-Maybe for love.
4.What Daemon did during those years of exile? Does anything could happened that time that actually matters?
-Again, I do not know.
5. Was Daemon's hand too in the murder of Laenor?
-I don't think so, In my opinion, he loved Laena, He might have been sooo pissed off at that time.
6. Did Daemon marry Rhaenyra for love?
-As a fan of him, I'd say I hope he did. From a neutral POV, I don't know.
7.If governance bored him, why would he want to be king after all?
-Hunger for power, pride, and he might also would liked his sons to sit on the throne. There might be more too.
8. Did he died in the Battle above The God's Eye?
-I'd like to say nothing about him.
9. What did Daemon meant when agreeing about he lived too much? 49 years arent that much.
-He may have realized that he lived his whole life without leaving anything lasting good, that in the end he remained the "monster" that he tried to avoid, that his actions ruined lives, and others... I'd like to see more about this.
10. I'm afraid I misunderstand the "A queen's words, a whore's work." sentence. What did he actually meant when saying it?
11. Daemon did deserved the hate he got from Viserys. But did Viserys deserved Daemon's hatred?
-I think yes, both of them are responsible for their bad relationship.
12. In Fire and Blood it is written down that Rhaenyra know that his husband had his needs that were needed to be satisfied. If Daemon cheated on her several times, why was she so resentful when she learned about Nettles? Maybe those needs were different, it ain't mentioned anywhere that during his third marriage he was still the same.
-I don't have a single clue.
13. Did he love Nettles?
-I don't think so.
14. Did he sent away Nettles because he realized what he did?
-I donnow.

Those who feel the post pointless are free to go elsewhere. After all, I would like to get competent, and rethinked answers, because I am trying to understand his character further more. If someone has a different opinion about the questions, I'd like to see them.

If anyone has any other questions, those are free to ask. We're here to loosen the knot.

 

[Eltharion21]

Firstly to say that I am not a fan of character, nor Martin trying to depict him as grey character in interviews, without evidence written in Fire and Blood that could support that claim. 

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"You know, I am notorious for my love of grey characters, and one of the greyest characters in the entire history of Westeros is Daemon Targaryen, the rogue prince. We made one of the sidebars and made separate story out of it - The rogue prince. Daemon is younger brother of King Viserys I for a time he was a heir to the throne, when Viserys had no children and then Viserys started having children and he stopped being heir to the throne.

He is notorious bad boy, an rogue in every sense of the word, he was the rival for Viserys sister and his own niece Rhaenyra and later he became husband of Rhaenyra, he switches sides several times, you never know what side he is gonna come down to. He is very colorful and unpredictable character and I think he has to rank up with my favorite. But the book is full of what I hope are interesting characters."

 

Though I will try to answer your questions based on my opinion, since most of those events are open to interpretation for the lack of material, and conflicting theories and testimonies from Fire & Blood.

 

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1. Jaehaerys and Alysanne was so religious. Daemon's morality was clear to everyone, why they let Daemon rot if they take care of their children so hard?

1. Honestly Jaehaerys and Alysanne had their trouble raising their own children ( Saera, Vaegon, Viserra Daella), , let alone grandchildren. They had 66/64 years with his birth so they probably left it to parents, tutors and teachers. Jahaerys seems that had taken role as a "father of the realm" to detriment of his own family.

Alysanne, Baelon and Jaehaerys  died in 100AC, 101AC and 103 AC so Baelon as a father should be mostly required to raise/educate his son.

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2. Baelon was a great person, but was he a good father? Why he let his son choose this path?

2. Sometimes letting choose their own path is what good parents do, it depends.  Probably  at young age behavior was seen as mischievous and not yet serious- It reminds me of  Henry IV part1  the Shakespear's play - though Price Hal rises to the challenge, renounces his former way of life and becomes accomplished ruler. 

"Adding to King Henry's troubles is the behavior of his son and heir, the Prince of Wales. Hal (the future Henry V) has forsaken the Royal Court to waste his time in taverns with low companions. This makes him an object of scorn to the nobles and calls into question his royal worthiness. King is dealing with internal instability and is dealing with troublesome nobles. Meanwhile, Henry's son Hal is joking, drinking, and thieving with Falstaff and his associates."

Nobility regarding their progeny is constrained with social dogmas, traditions, attempts to preserve the line , which enabled many of foul characters to prosper ( Maegor, Aegon the Unworthy, Aerion) despite having parents who were undoubtedly great leaders.

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3.Lady Laena wouldn't herited anything, so if not for wealth, then why did Daemon marry her?

3. Who can be truly certain. There might be attraction or love in time but Seasnake was also ambitious man and blood of son of Baelon and dragonrider would increase power of his family too, also murdering betrothed of Laena with his blessing speaks volumes. It was alliance mostly.

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Prince Daemon fell in love with Laena, the singers would have us believe. Men of a more cynical bent believe the prince saw her as a way to check his own descent. Once seen as his brother’s heir, he had fallen far down in the line of succession, and neither the greens nor the blacks had a place for him…but House Velaryon was powerful enough to defy both parties with impunity. Weary of the Stepstones, and free at last of his “bronze bitch,” Daemon Targaryen asked Lord Corlys for his daughter’s hand in marriage.

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4.What Daemon did during those years of exile? Does anything could happened that time that actually matters?

4. After his exile of 111AC - this is mentioned:

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Of the aftermath, these things are certain. Daemon Targaryen returned to the Stepstones and resumed his struggle for those barren storm-swept rocks.

115 AC Lady Rhea Royce dies in tragic "accident" and he flies back , tries to return and claim her lands or pay respects. He gets shooed by Lady Jeyne Arryn, at the time  his meagre kingdom is struggling to survive against Triarchy and Dorne. Then he drops to Driftmark while disregarding his exile.

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5. Was Daemon's hand too in the murder of Laenor?

5. I personally think though he killed Laena's betrothed ,likely organized Rhea Royce's death, and certainly ordered "son for a son", neither he nor Corlys had part in Laenor's death. I put blame on faceless men hired by one of Essossi powers who saw possible rise of new Valyria and manipulated factions into conflict. 

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The great tourney held at King’s Landing in 98 AC to celebrate the fiftieth year of King Jaehaerys’s reign surely gladdened the queen’s heart as well, for most of her surviving children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren returned to share in the feasts and celebrations. Not since the Doom of Valyria had so many dragons been seen in one place at one time, it was truly said.

King Viserys was most wroth as well; a joyous celebration had become the occasion of grief and recrimination. It was said that Queen Alicent did not share his displeasure, however; soon after, she asked that Ser Criston Cole be made her personal protector. The coolness between the king’s wife and the king’s daughter was plain for all to see; even envoys from the Free Cities made note of it in letters sent back to Pentos, Braavos, and Old Volantis.

 

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6. Did Daemon marry Rhaenyra for love?

6. I doubt it was love between Rhaenyra and him, more like security for her and for him final chance to be near the throne.

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7.If governance bored him, why would he want to be king after all?

7. He was described as "hot-tempered and quarrelsome young man, ambitious, impetuous, moody younger brother. As charming as he was hot-tempered,"  Maybe he felt he had no control of his life , being forced in loveless marriage, which his brother denied to set aside so he had ambition to choose his own fate.

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8. Did he died in the Battle above The God's Eye?

8. He most likely did die due to laws of physics. We knot that Nettles was seen with Sheepstealer  alone in 134 ac , four year after the Dance in Vale. There are no mention of him, he could have easily return and meet his daughters / sons if he was alive.

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9. What did Daemon meant when agreeing about he lived too much? 49 years arent that much.

9. It probably he was tired of all intrigue, ambition, schemes and victories that turn in defeats. He lived very turbulent dynamic life, yet who knows if it was fulfilling. That also implies he was ready to die, while giving chance for young Nettles to live.

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10. I'm afraid I misunderstand the "A queen's words, a whore's work." sentence. What did he actually meant when saying it?

10. It might mean that order comes from his ruler, yet it is dirty despicable work to do. Or that Rhaenyra had order it , but Mysaria had engineered it.

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11. Daemon did deserved the hate he got from Viserys. But did Viserys deserved Daemon's hatred?

11. Worst thing what Viserys I was banishing Mysaria and her loosing a child , which happened inadvertently and Daemon did try to give her a dragon egg.

I doubt Viserys had deserved that Daemon would corrupt/despoil his underage daughter, ignore his banishment by coming to Westeros, marry her- his heir without his consent as the King, killing his son and torment family and murder a grandson- just a child who he often played with. 

Viserys was far too forgiving with his spoiled brother many times, stigma of kinslaying was something that held him possibly, scruples his brother didn't share.

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12. In Fire and Blood it is written down that Rhaenyra know that his husband had his needs that were needed to be satisfied. If Daemon cheated on her several times, why was she so resentful when she learned about Nettles? Maybe those needs were different, it ain't mentioned anywhere that during his third marriage he was still the same.

12. Rhaenyra wanted to arrest not only Nettles but also Addam Velaryon.  She was broken with paranoia probably influenced by whispers of Mysaria, real or false treasons and many tragedies, she believes Nettles had used sorcery to enthrall Daemon and to free him she needs to be killed, while he shouldn't be hurt.

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13. Did he love Nettles?

13.  I am not convinced that their relationship was carnal/romantical. We can only guess, people did see them bathing together naked in Maidenpool, but Jaime and Brienne were naked in baths of Harehall together, She also wasn't Daemons type , who seem to favor Valyrian looking maidens ( Mysaria, Laena, Rhaenyra).

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14. Did he sent away Nettles because he realized what he did?

14. He might have middle life crisis and connected with Nettles on some not necessarily romantically level , and tried to be a good mentor, grooming her for court. With  shit hitting the fan- by Rhaenyra proclaiming her traitor. Being in position between hammer and the anvil, he maybe tried to spare her and deal with it himself, to do one decent thing before he dies.

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 10/4/2020 at 5:18 PM, HerblYY said:

When Viserys got elected, Daemon even created a smaller army to defend his brother's birthright.

Daemon gathered the men after Baelon's death and before the Great Council.

On 10/4/2020 at 5:18 PM, HerblYY said:

so by 116AC, he went to Driftmark

The visit on Driftmark and the marriage both took place in 115 AC.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 10/6/2020 at 10:03 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Daemon gathered the men after Baelon's death and before the Great Council.

The visit on Driftmark and the marriage both took place in 115 AC.

Edited, thank you.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 8:39 PM, Eltharion21 said:

Firstly to say that I am not a fan of character, nor Martin trying to depict him as grey character in interviews, without evidence written in Fire and Blood that could support that claim. 

Though I will try to answer your questions based on my opinion, since most of those events are open to interpretation for the lack of material, and conflicting theories and testimonies from Fire & Blood.

 

1. Honestly Jaehaerys and Alysanne had their trouble raising their own children ( Saera, Vaegon, Viserra Daella), , let alone grandchildren. They had 66/64 years with his birth so they probably left it to parents, tutors and teachers. Jahaerys seems that had taken role as a "father of the realm" to detriment of his own family.

Alysanne, Baelon and Jaehaerys  died in 100AC, 101AC and 103 AC so Baelon as a father should be mostly required to raise/educate his son.

2. Sometimes letting choose their own path is what good parents do, it depends.  Probably  at young age behavior was seen as mischievous and not yet serious- It reminds me of  Henry IV part1  the Shakespear's play - though Price Hal rises to the challenge, renounces his former way of life and becomes accomplished ruler. 

"Adding to King Henry's troubles is the behavior of his son and heir, the Prince of Wales. Hal (the future Henry V) has forsaken the Royal Court to waste his time in taverns with low companions. This makes him an object of scorn to the nobles and calls into question his royal worthiness. King is dealing with internal instability and is dealing with troublesome nobles. Meanwhile, Henry's son Hal is joking, drinking, and thieving with Falstaff and his associates."

Nobility regarding their progeny is constrained with social dogmas, traditions, attempts to preserve the line , which enabled many of foul characters to prosper ( Maegor, Aegon the Unworthy, Aerion) despite having parents who were undoubtedly great leaders.

3. Who can be truly certain. There might be attraction or love in time but Seasnake was also ambitious man and blood of son of Baelon and dragonrider would increase power of his family too, also murdering betrothed of Laena with his blessing speaks volumes. It was alliance mostly.

4. After his exile of 111AC - this is mentioned:

115 AC Lady Rhea Royce dies in tragic "accident" and he flies back , tries to return and claim her lands or pay respects. He gets shooed by Lady Jeyne Arryn, at the time  his meagre kingdom is struggling to survive against Triarchy and Dorne. Then he drops to Driftmark while disregarding his exile.

5. I personally think though he killed Laena's betrothed ,likely organized Rhea Royce's death, and certainly ordered "son for a son", neither he nor Corlys had part in Laenor's death. I put blame on faceless men hired by one of Essossi powers who saw possible rise of new Valyria and manipulated factions into conflict. 

6. I doubt it was love between Rhaenyra and him, more like security for her and for him final chance to be near the throne.

7. He was described as "hot-tempered and quarrelsome young man, ambitious, impetuous, moody younger brother. As charming as he was hot-tempered,"  Maybe he felt he had no control of his life , being forced in loveless marriage, which his brother denied to set aside so he had ambition to choose his own fate.

8. He most likely did die due to laws of physics. We knot that Nettles was seen with Sheepstealer  alone in 134 ac , four year after the Dance in Vale. There are no mention of him, he could have easily return and meet his daughters / sons if he was alive.

9. It probably he was tired of all intrigue, ambition, schemes and victories that turn in defeats. He lived very turbulent dynamic life, yet who knows if it was fulfilling. That also implies he was ready to die, while giving chance for young Nettles to live.

10. It might mean that order comes from his ruler, yet it is dirty despicable work to do. Or that Rhaenyra had order it , but Mysaria had engineered it.

11. Worst thing what Viserys I was banishing Mysaria and her loosing a child , which happened inadvertently and Daemon did try to give her a dragon egg.

I doubt Viserys had deserved that Daemon would corrupt/despoil his underage daughter, ignore his banishment by coming to Westeros, marry her- his heir without his consent as the King, killing his son and torment family and murder a grandson- just a child who he often played with. 

Viserys was far too forgiving with his spoiled brother many times, stigma of kinslaying was something that held him possibly, scruples his brother didn't share.

12. Rhaenyra wanted to arrest not only Nettles but also Addam Velaryon.  She was broken with paranoia probably influenced by whispers of Mysaria, real or false treasons and many tragedies, she believes Nettles had used sorcery to enthrall Daemon and to free him she needs to be killed, while he shouldn't be hurt.

13.  I am not convinced that their relationship was carnal/romantical. We can only guess, people did see them bathing together naked in Maidenpool, but Jaime and Brienne were naked in baths of Harehall together, She also wasn't Daemons type , who seem to favor Valyrian looking maidens ( Mysaria, Laena, Rhaenyra).

14. He might have middle life crisis and connected with Nettles on some not necessarily romantically level , and tried to be a good mentor, grooming her for court. With  shit hitting the fan- by Rhaenyra proclaiming her traitor. Being in position between hammer and the anvil, he maybe tried to spare her and deal with it himself, to do one decent thing before he dies.

The only thing I see a different way and I do have to mention it too is her relationship with Rhaenyra. This includes the question of the murder of Laenor and the marriage between these two too (Questions 5 and 6).

First thing: I don't believe Daemon killed Laenor. Neither did Corlys. The only reason I do protect Daemon in this csse is that Laenor was Corlys' son, and you just don't kill the son of your BFF, not even Daemon, i believe. 

Then: If Daemon's hands are clean, he might also have been pretty pissed off of Laena's death, and there's also no point of believing that he married Rhaenyra because she was the heir, since he did not want to free her from Laenor at all. And of course, her daughter was to be queen trough Jake Velaryon. 

So if he did not kill Laenor, there's no point of believing that he married Rhaenyra for her claims. If he did kill Laenor ( which, again, is not likely, we can agree in this), your suggestion would have been more likely than mine.

I hope you did understand what I tried to say since it is really complicated.

After all, this is just speculation, I can accept the opinion of someone who suggests that he did kill Laenor, but we both do not believe this. 

And of course, sorry for the late reply.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/6/2020 at 12:39 PM, Eltharion21 said:

likely organized Rhea Royce's death

How? I'm entirely willing to believe Daemon is willing to arrange a murder (since we know he did that via Blood & Cheese), but this had no hallmarks of homicide.

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neither he nor Corlys had part in Laenor's death. I put blame on faceless men hired by one of Essossi powers who saw possible rise of new Valyria and manipulated factions into conflict

We know the identity of Laenor's killer, as both Mushroom & Eustace affirm it was Qarl Correy, and each provides him with a sufficient motive. There's no need to invoke any FM.

14 hours ago, HerblYY said:

you just don't kill the son of your BFF, not even Daemon, i believe

They were political allies who previously had a marriage alliance via Laena (whom he had married after killing her suitor). Killing Laenor allows him to maintain a marriage alliance and get even closer to the throne.

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there's also no point of believing that he married Rhaenyra because she was the heir

We know he was ambitious and mocked the king losing a potential male heir (which is how he lost his status as heir).

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since he did not want to free her from Laenor at all

What are you referring to?

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So if he did not kill Laenor, there's no point of believing that he married Rhaenyra for her claims

No, even if he was innocent that would still get him closer to power. His daughter could marry Jace, but she might not become queen until years after Daemon's own death.

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How? I'm entirely willing to believe Daemon is willing to arrange a murder (since we know he did that via Blood & Cheese), but this had no hallmarks of homicide.

And of course, why at this point? Why not earlier? Makes no sense, I can agree with you.

 

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We know the identity of Laenor's killer, as both Mushroom & Eustace affirm it was Qarl Correy, and each provides him with a sufficient motive. There's no need to invoke any FM.

Yes, FM is not likely.

 

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

They were political allies who previously had a marriage alliance via Laena (whom he had married after killing her suitor). Killing Laenor allows him to maintain a marriage alliance and get even closer to the throne.

Now here's the thing you are not right about. They weren't just allies, but friends too. The proof for this is that they conquered the Stepstones before his marriage with Laena. Also the fact that after the Dance, Corlys did take care of Aegon, and no, it wasn't his duty. Little 10 yo Aegon trusted him for a reason, but because he remembered the relationship of these two. Also, when Daemon was exiled, Corlys did not care about. When Daemon was only sent away from the court, he immediately went to Driftmark. Because they were friends. Yes, they were on the opposite side during the Great Council, but they got closer by the time. The thing that formed this FRIENDSHIP was maybe they common hatred towards Viserys. Yet it put them together.

 

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We know he was ambitious and mocked the king losing a potential male heir (which is how he lost his status as heir).

First thing: He lost his status as heir when he made joke of Aemma and her son's death. Mysaria losing her children was only after Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir.

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What are you referring to?

No, even if he was innocent that would still get him closer to power. His daughter could marry Jace, but she might not become queen until years after Daemon's own death.

I am reffering to neither of us (Me and Eltharion) believe that Daemon did actually kill Laenor.

And here comes the main thing: I am trying to build up everything by considering EVERYTHING we got. Not only Daemon's character and his limits. Daemon was a bad person, no doubts, but he too had feelings too, had friends and respected the ones that deserved by his POV. Laenor died by Qarl Qorrey's hands directly, and he had his own motives too. Maybe he was paid to do it, but jealousy is more likely. Only Mushroom suggests that it was Daemon who made this happen, but he had no proof, even tho he was a member of the court and regularly heard things that wasn't supposed to be heard by anyone.

I assume Daemon had no part in Laenor's death, if you think it differently, there's no point of you reading towards, but here it is: Imagine being pissed of by your wife's death (because it is likely he was), then dies Laenor too, husband of the girl you played with. But you don't give a fuck about it, because your wife just recently died. At this point, your daughter will be queen, so (since it is likely Daemon only wanted the throne so his children will be kings too) there's no point of going into another scheme with that girl you threated like shit in the past. But that girl, somehow, is still in love with you (this one is obvious), and she does actually approach you THAT way, so you let the things happen. The question is: do you love him back or is this just another careless move? At this point, Daemon lived his "golden ages". He was morally "good" at this point, considering his early and later life. So he might married Rhaenyra for love. Might not too. I don't know.

Everything is speculation, marrying Rhaenyra for love is not less likelier than marrying her for her birthright. I can respect your opinion about his marriage with Rhaenyra, but the thing you could agree with is that he did not kill Laenor. He might still have seen the opportunity after Laenor's death, but I think this is the less likelier.

I hope the HBO House of the Dragon could be considered at least semi-canon since GRRM will play a bigger role in it than he had in GOT. That show has to answer these kind of questions.

[Eltharion21]

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How? I'm entirely willing to believe Daemon is willing to arrange a murder (since we know he did that via Blood & Cheese), but this had no hallmarks of homicide.

We know the identity of Laenor's killer, as both Mushroom & Eustace affirm it was Qarl Correy, and each provides him with a sufficient motive. There's no need to invoke any FM.

They were political allies who previously had a marriage alliance via Laena (whom he had married after killing her suitor). Killing Laenor allows him to maintain a marriage alliance and get even closer to the throne.

Story is more complex as we see from various suspicious deaths or events during the Asoiaf  ( Jon Arryns Death, Lysa Arryn/Baelish and Cersei involvement in Roberts death, Faceless men , etc.)

Death of Laenor linked with deaths of Laena and Strongs happening in short interval, all moved in direction of forming Black alliance between Rhanyra, Velaryons and Daemon Targaryen to counter the rising power of Hightowers in court. 

We see Westeros at the time being described as new Valyria and also during the Tourney when Sir Cole slew Joffrey Lonmouth, dissent in the court was evident to all emissaries from Essoss- who were likely wary of rising strength of Targaryens and their dragons.

Besides sources mentioning a Houshold knight, Qarl Correy and Daemon Targaryen, despite investigation and enormous reward thing never was settled.  Impact of Laenors death and mysterious circumstances surrounding it just seem like something that Faceless Men were apt in doing.

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The Lord of the Tides and his lady were still in mourning for their beloved daughter when the Stranger came again, to carry off their son. Ser Laenor Velaryon, husband to the Princess Rhaenyra and the putative father of her children, was slain whilst attending a fair in Spicetown, stabbed to death by his friend and companion Ser Qarl Correy. The two men had been quarreling loudly before blades were drawn, merchants at the fair told Lord Velaryon when he came to collect his son’s body. Correy had fled by then, wounding several men who tried to hinder him. Some claimed a ship had been waiting for him offshore. He was never seen again.
The circumstances of the murder remain a mystery to this day.

 

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A household knight of relatively low birth, Correy was known to have a lord’s tastes and a peasant’s purse, and was given to extravagant wagering besides, which lends a certain credence to the fool’s version of events. Yet there was no shred of proof, then or now, though the Sea Snake offered a reward of ten thousand golden dragons for any man who could lead him to Ser Qarl Correy, or deliver the killer to a father’s vengeance.

Daemon seems to be close with Laena and Velaryons, there are far to many events painting him badly, that would also make him plotting against Rhaenyra or Corlys who he seems to have measure of loyalty even until his death. I would give him benefit of the doubt regarding some of the things he was accused like Harenhall or Laenor by the sources.

Daemon was actively trying to be released from his marriage through petition to the King, leaving to King's Landing and later going at Stepstones. I additionally find timing of Rheas death suspicious as it was at the time when his Stepstones campaign was going badly in 115 AC.

[Daeron the Daring]

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Story is more complex as we see from various suspicious deaths or events during the Asoiaf  ( Jon Arryns Death, Lysa Arryn/Baelish and Cersei involvement in Roberts death, Faceless men , etc.)

Death of Laenor linked with deaths of Laena and Strongs happening in short interval, all moved in direction of forming Black alliance between Rhanyra, Velaryons and Daemon Targaryen to counter the rising power of Hightowers in court. 

We see Westeros at the time being described as new Valyria and also during the Tourney when Sir Cole slew Joffrey Lonmouth, dissent in the court was evident to all emissaries from Essoss- who were likely wary of rising strength of Targaryens and their dragons.

Besides sources mentioning a Houshold knight, Qarl Correy and Daemon Targaryen, despite investigation and enormous reward thing never was settled.  Impact of Laenors death and mysterious circumstances surrounding it just seem like something that Faceless Men were apt in doing.

 

Daemon seems to be close with Laena and Velaryons, there are far to many events painting him badly, that would also make him plotting against Rhaenyra or Corlys who he seems to have measure of loyalty even until his death. I would give him benefit of the doubt regarding some of the things he was accused like Harenhall or Laenor by the sources.

Daemon was actively trying to be released from his marriage through petition to the King, leaving to King's Landing and later going at Stepstones. I additionally find timing of Rheas death suspicious as it was at the time when his Stepstones campaign was going badly in 115 AC.

You just see too much into that.

House Strong was Viserys' work.

If Daemon wanted to kill Rhea, he shouldn't have waited 20 fckn years.

Velaryons have become "blacks" since the marriage between Rhaenyra and Laenor. I mean, Jake was the heir to the throne, while his brother Luke was the heir to Driftmark.

So, what are we exactly talking about? Rhea's death was an accident, that's how FM work, okay. Laena died in childbirth, this can also be manipulated, but not likely. But Laenor got stabbed. That does not seem to be an accident.

I personally believe FM didn't give a fuck about dragons since those valyrians riding them were actually anti-slaverists.

 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

15 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Maybe he was paid to do it, but jealousy is more likely. Only Mushroom suggests that it was Daemon who made this happen, but he had no proof, even tho he was a member of the court and regularly heard things that wasn't supposed to be heard by anyone.

Gyldayn collaborates Mushroom's account of Qarl Correy's money issues. And it's hard to see how he could have escaped from Driftmark as a mere household knight with a "peasant's purse".

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since it is likely Daemon only wanted the throne so his children will be kings too

What makes that "likely"?

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Story is more complex as we see from various suspicious deaths or events during the Asoiaf  ( Jon Arryns Death, Lysa Arryn/Baelish and Cersei involvement in Roberts death

Lysa was in the capital with Jon, so she was able to poison him. Cersei was in KL with Robert and her cousins, so she was able to provide the latter with strongwine to give Robert during the hunt. Daemon had been estranged from his wife for some time, and nobody in the Vale seemed to like him.

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Death of Laenor linked with deaths of Laena and Strongs happening in short interval, all moved in direction of forming Black alliance between Rhanyra, Velaryons and Daemon Targaryen to counter the rising power of Hightowers in court.

How does that have anything to do with the Faceless Men?

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We see Westeros at the time being described as new Valyria

Dragonstone specifically.

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Besides sources mentioning a Houshold knight, Qarl Correy and Daemon Targaryen, despite investigation and enormous reward thing never was settled

I posted a link discussing Qarl's "escape" from Driftmark above. If Qarl was simply murdered after completing his task (like Dontos Hollard), then the trail would run cold.

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Gyldayn collaborates Mushroom's account of Qarl Correy's money issues. And it's hard to see how he could have escaped from Driftmark as a mere household knight with a "peasant's purse".

What makes that "likely"?

I posted a link discussing Qarl's "escape" from Driftmark above. If Qarl was simply murdered after completing his task (like Dontos Hollard), then the trail would run cold.

First of all: We've discussed Daemon's motives of taking the throne, and since ruling and government bored him, it's pretty "likely", but if you have any other suggestions, I am waiting, for real.

The link you gave us is pretty detailed about Qarl, Daemon and the greens having their own reasons, but it still missess a bunch od things.

First of all, if Qarl killed Laenor for jealousy, he needed no payment. He was about to lose his favor. Then, if he was paid, imagine the amount of money he might have required for killing his lover. That money could have easily helped him escaping, if he wasn't murdered afterwards. Anyone hired him, the person needed to pay him worth more than Laenor's favor. The link you gave discussed the chances of Daemon and the greens being the ones that hired Qarl. But what about Viserys, or Rhaenyra herself? We know (no doubts, maybe Rhaenyra) that Viserys murdered the Strongs for keeping the secret of Rhaenyra, but Laenor knew the exact same thing as Ser Harwin. Why not him? 

Then, the marriage between Rhaenyra and Daemon: You assume Daemon wanted to marry Rhaenyra for whatever reason, but Rhaenyra too had to agree with this. As long as she does not want this marriage, it won't happen. And here comes the thing on what I personally build up everything: Rhaenyra had to love Daemon to allow this marriage, and Daemon had to love her back too, or at least pretend it. So if Rhaenyra still loved his uncle at this time, he might have hired Qarl. 

I am not saying that Daemon was an angel. He might have hired Qarl to murder Laenor, but there are so many other options too that they cannot be missed.

[Eltharion21]

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Lysa was in the capital with Jon, so she was able to poison him. Cersei was in KL with Robert and her cousins, so she was able to provide the latter with strongwine to give Robert during the hunt. Daemon had been estranged from his wife for some time, and nobody in the Vale seemed to like him.

How does that have anything to do with the Faceless Men?

Dragonstone specifically.

I posted a link discussing Qarl's "escape" from Driftmark above. If Qarl was simply murdered after completing his task (like Dontos Hollard), then the trail would run cold.

Text is written as quasi historical compiling of various sources by Archmaester Gyldayn, we can see that history is muddled and full of various bias as evident in main series and describing events of Robert's Rebellion. Lot of it in Fire & Blood is open to interpretation and lot of it doesn't make sense.

Lysa was in capital when she poisoned Jon, yet even then Hugh of the Vale and Cersei through Grand Maester Pycelle - (by replacing Master Colemon who was successful in his healing) are implicated in Jon Arryn's death as well. Cersei also isn't directly present during Roberts hunt, but gives her catspaw Lancel Lannister fortified strongwine. 

Lords of Vale certainly didn't like Daemon, yet it isn't unlikely that he found connections with shady individuals while he was present in Vale or used underground connections in King's Landing to acquire them. Neither King or Lady Royce wanted to dissolve marriage.To become free murder remained as only option, especially since his "kingdom" was failing. Daemon was also away from the capital when he ordered "blood&cheese" or when he ordered coup in ranks of City Watch, he could have sent any sort of agent to do the deed, especially from Dragonstone or Houses in the Narrow Sea. Fall and death of Lady Royce are reminiscent of Lady Tanda Stokeworth death where Bronn's involvement is implied, yet not confirmed.

Since it was rather enormous reward for information about killer, and Corlys Velaryon survived rogue prince, and that it was ship that probably was manned by more than few men, it would make possible for  Deamons involvement swim on to the surface eventually ( pun intended), though it wasn't a case. Also his daughters were betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons before the death of Laenor, so it seems he was firmly in Velaryon camp.

Faceless Men have their history and very existence tied to Slave Masters of Valyria. If any power had motive to stop rise of new Valyria it would be them, likely some power from Essos could had also hired them for the deed. Laenor's death made sure of that by connecting Rhaenyra and Daemon, who was reviled by Ser Otto Hightower, and strengthened possibility that the Green family members would be killed with change of regime, smallest things pushed other players and pieces toward Civil War.

 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

16 hours ago, HerblYY said:

We've discussed Daemon's motives of taking the throne, and since ruling and government bored him, it's pretty "likely", but if you have any other suggestions, I am waiting, for real.

People can want the throne even if responsibility bores them. The boring stuff can be handed to the Hand, while the king does what he likes.

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First of all, if Qarl killed Laenor for jealousy, he needed no payment.

If it had just been an impulsive act and he was cut down, that would be fair enough. But he was never caught, and escaping Driftmark should have been very difficult for someone of his limited means. Thus the implication that others were involved.

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Then, if he was paid, imagine the amount of money he might have required for killing his lover

The payment doesn't contradict the jealousy. Both could be true.

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Anyone hired him, the person needed to pay him worth more than Laenor's favor

Favor which had reportedly refocused on someone else.

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But what about Viserys, or Rhaenyra herself?

Those aren't brought up in the text, but you can elaborate on those.

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We know (no doubts, maybe Rhaenyra) that Viserys murdered the Strongs for keeping the secret of Rhaenyra

We don't "know" that, it is merely one of multiple possibilities, and attributed to Mellos. Personally, I agree with the link that Larys is more likely.

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Laenor knew the exact same thing as Ser Harwin. Why not him?

Viserys had insisted on Laenor marrying Rhaenyra over her objections.

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Lysa was in capital when she poisoned Jon, yet even then Hugh of the Vale and Cersei through Grand Maester Pycelle - (by replacing Master Colemon who was successful in his healing) are implicated in Jon Arryn's death as well

I'm not sure why you're bringing up Hugh... we learn that it was Lysa who poisoned Jon, not him. Petyr is the one who tells Ned about Hugh, but we know Petyr himself was behind the assassination.

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Neither King or Lady Royce wanted to dissolve marriage

I thought it was just the King who insisted on the marriage, not Lady Royce. Not that it mattered, since divorce doesn't exist.

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Daemon was also away from the capital when he ordered "blood&cheese"

True, but he had many connections in low places there, and Mysaria was in the capital.

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or when he ordered coup in ranks of City Watch

I didn't think he coordinated that himself, they just launched it when the opportunity arose.

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Fall and death of Lady Royce are reminiscent of Lady Tanda Stokeworth death where Bronn's involvement is implied, yet not confirmed

The Bronn vs the Stokeworths plot consists of Cersei assuming Tyrion is acting against her, then her own actions blowing up in her face. Tanda's stable-boy was blamed for the worn girdle. Although I doubt Bronn did anything to help after she had broken her hip.

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Laenor's death made sure of that by connecting Rhaenyra and Daemon, who was reviled by Ser Otto Hightower, and strengthened possibility that the Green family members would be killed with change of regime, smallest things pushed other players and pieces toward Civil War.

That is thinking so far ahead I find it hard to believe.

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Text is written as quasi historical compiling of various sources by Archmaester Gyldayn, we can see that history is muddled and full of various bias as evident in main series and describing events of Robert's Rebellion. Lot of it in Fire & Blood is open to interpretation and lot of it doesn't make sense.

Lysa was in capital when she poisoned Jon, yet even then Hugh of the Vale and Cersei through Grand Maester Pycelle - (by replacing Master Colemon who was successful in his healing) are implicated in Jon Arryn's death as well. Cersei also isn't directly present during Roberts hunt, but gives her catspaw Lancel Lannister fortified strongwine. 

Lords of Vale certainly didn't like Daemon, yet it isn't unlikely that he found connections with shady individuals while he was present in Vale or used underground connections in King's Landing to acquire them. Neither King or Lady Royce wanted to dissolve marriage.To become free murder remained as only option, especially since his "kingdom" was failing. Daemon was also away from the capital when he ordered "blood&cheese" or when he ordered coup in ranks of City Watch, he could have sent any sort of agent to do the deed, especially from Dragonstone or Houses in the Narrow Sea. Fall and death of Lady Royce are reminiscent of Lady Tanda Stokeworth death where Bronn's involvement is implied, yet not confirmed.

Since it was rather enormous reward for information about killer, and Corlys Velaryon survived rogue prince, and that it was ship that probably was manned by more than few men, it would make possible for  Deamons involvement swim on to the surface eventually ( pun intended), though it wasn't a case. Also his daughters were betrothed to Rhaenyra's sons before the death of Laenor, so it seems he was firmly in Velaryon camp.

Faceless Men have their history and very existence tied to Slave Masters of Valyria. If any power had motive to stop rise of new Valyria it would be them, likely some power from Essos could had also hired them for the deed. Laenor's death made sure of that by connecting Rhaenyra and Daemon, who was reviled by Ser Otto Hightower, and strengthened possibility that the Green family members would be killed with change of regime, smallest things pushed other players and pieces toward Civil War.

 

 

The only thing you may be right about is that Daemon had nothing to do with Laenor's death. The FM couldn't be it, they just don't do it this way, they try to make their murder seem an accident. Laenor's death wasn't.

 

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

People can want the throne even if responsibility bores them. The boring stuff can be handed to the Hand, while the king does what he likes.

If it had just been an impulsive act and he was cut down, that would be fair enough. But he was never caught, and escaping Driftmark should have been very difficult for someone of his limited means. Thus the implication that others were involved.

The payment doesn't contradict the jealousy. Both could be true.

Favor which had reportedly refocused on someone else.

Those aren't brought up in the text, but you can elaborate on those.

We don't "know" that, it is merely one of multiple possibilities, and attributed to Mellos. Personally, I agree with the link that Larys is more likely.

Viserys had insisted on Laenor marrying Rhaenyra over her objections.

1) Yes, you are right. If you want to find a reason, you always can.

2) We don't know how much planned his act was. Even if he wasn't paid, he could've planned it earlier, and he did not have to leave the island immediately. Shaving the head and wearing a peasant's clotches makes him a perfect disguise.

3) Yes, you are right, jealousy even might have been helped him accepting the payment.

4) Maybe it began to refocus on someone else, but Laenor at the point of the incident Qarl was still his company, not anyone else rumoured to be Laenor's new lover.

5) All I wanted to say with this is that Daemon isn't the only suspect, not even the likelier (from my POV), since he would have been risked his only friendship with this.

6) You may be right. If he was the actual murderer of his father and brother, there's no point of believing that Viserys had anything to do with Laenor. 

7) Yes, he did. But the marriage did not work out the way he imagined. That's no reason against him being the one that hired Qarl.

After all, you can realize that Eustache chose a way he actually liked for imagining Laenor's death, controled by his faith (the punishment of the gay by his own lover), and so did Mushroom who is the least accurate information source. 

Ser Qarl Qorrey is the big question. We don't know his abilities. If his act was controlled only by an abrupt anger, he might have been escaped, or realising his crimes, he might have become suicide too. We don't know if there even was anyone he could be jealous of. If he planned this, he proved to be smart enough to escape with our without money.

Before writing any reply, everyone should consider everything, not only those written down things by not-that-accurate accounts.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 10/6/2020 at 10:39 AM, Eltharion21 said:

Firstly to say that I am not a fan of character, nor Martin trying to depict him as grey character in interviews, without evidence written in Fire and Blood that could support that claim. 

 

Right? He's like a Wal-mart Jaime Lannister.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/30/2020 at 11:19 PM, HerblYY said:

2) We don't know how much planned his act was. Even if he wasn't paid, he could've planned it earlier, and he did not have to leave the island immediately. Shaving the head and wearing a peasant's clotches makes him a perfect disguise.

Considering the size of the reward, I find it hard to believe he could get away with such an impulsive act with a hastily cobbled together escape plan.

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5) All I wanted to say with this is that Daemon isn't the only suspect, not even the likelier (from my POV), since he would have been risked his only friendship with this.

Daemon is a guy who takes big risks.

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7) Yes, he did. But the marriage did not work out the way he imagined. That's no reason against him being the one that hired Qarl.

Viserys is a stick-his-head-in-the-sand kind of guy, not an admit-he-made-a-mistake kind. The problem with marrying Laenor was brought up earlier, and Viserys ignored it.

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After all, you can realize that Eustache chose a way he actually liked for imagining Laenor's death, controled by his faith (the punishment of the gay by his own lover), and so did Mushroom who is the least accurate information source.

I disagree about him being the least accurate source, but rather than recapitulating the threads where I argued with Lord Varys over this, I'll just point you to what Tyrion & Gyldayn have to say about which dragon Byron Swann tried to kill.

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Ser Qarl Qorrey is the big question. We don't know his abilities. If his act was controlled only by an abrupt anger, he might have been escaped, or realising his crimes, he might have become suicide too.

Considering the size of the reward, wouldn't someone have pointed out the body? Did he commit suicide in some way to prevent himself from ever being found?

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If he planned this, he proved to be smart enough to escape with our without money.

Alternately, he was murdered by whoever hired him and they ensured his body would never be found.

[Daeron the Daring]

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Considering the size of the reward, I find it hard to believe he could get away with such an impulsive act with a hastily cobbled together escape plan.

Daemon is a guy who takes big risks.

If you want to believe that he had no chance to escape, you surely will. If you want to believe that Daemon was brave enough to kill his only friends' son, you surely will. But these hyphotesises have no evidence. 

If the one who hired him killed him, why wouldn't he capture him dead instead, so the secret will be unrevealed forever and the murderer will be the hero. Or why not hire a commoner for getting the reward for Qarl, so everyone can sleep in peace thinking that he at least got what he deserved? If that anyone who hired him wanted to end this once and for all, he would have done it this way, not only kill him and burn his body.

But let's call Qarl a dumbass idiot for no reason, without any evidence, who got murdered after the crime. You may considered the size of the reward, but you simply ignored the possibility of Qarl being smart or lucky enough to escape, because you simply don't want to consider this too, since it won't fit into your story.

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

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I dunno how to delete this, sorry.

I disagree about him being the least accurate source, but rather than recapitulating the threads where I argued with Lord Varys over this, I'll just point you to what Tyrion & Gyldayn have to say about which dragon Byron Swann tried to kill.

Considering the size of the reward, wouldn't someone have pointed out the body? Did he commit suicide in some way to prevent himself from ever being found?

Alternately, he was murdered by whoever hired him and they ensured his body would never be found.

Let's see how things happened in 120AC. Laena dies in childbirth. It means Vhagar is unmounted. Aemond quickly realizes the chance to claim Vhagar, but is confronted by Luke, Jake and Joffrey. He wins over them and calls them Strongs. But then Jake cuts out his eye. This all happened on Driftmark along with the funeral, maybe the day before or after it. Then Viserys, who knew that some already called Rhaenyra's children bastards, realizes that it has become a thing he might deal with, and states that anyone who calls his grandchildren bastards, its tongue will be cut out, no matter if a prince or peasant says it.

But there were a few who might know the truth and their words couldn't be questioned. Imagined if Ser Harwin claims that the 3 children are his. Or imagine Laenor admitting that he newer consumed his marriage. So he killed both. You may say that Clubfoot killed Harwin and his father, but then there's the question of why now? Why not years earlier? Harwin and Laenor both got killed in 120AC, when their words could have become sharp. You see my point?

You just keep ignoring everything that does not fit into your story.

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Viserys is a stick-his-head-in-the-sand kind of guy, not an admit-he-made-a-mistake kind. The problem with marrying Laenor was brought up earlier, and Viserys ignored it.

This especially makes no sense. At least he had enough balls to want to execute his brother and had enough balls to state that he is ready to cut out tongues. He was a little bit of the type you wrote down. But the thing with Laenor was that he wanted the marriage for the Velaryon alliance, and knew that someone gay can still father children. But when Laenor become a threat to his grandchildren and the honor of his daughter, he might have killed him. The fact that he wanted this marriage changes nothing. Since Laenor had "children", Viserys had no use of him.

[FictionIsntReal]

14 hours ago, HerblYY said:

If the one who hired him killed him, why wouldn't he capture him dead instead, so the secret will be unrevealed forever and the murderer will be the hero.

I think the murderer didn't want any apparent connection. If Corlys was continuing to focus on someone who would never be found, that was for the best.

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Or why not hire a commoner for getting the reward for Qarl, so everyone can sleep in peace thinking that he at least got what he deserved?

Fewer people involved is better.

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But let's call Qarl a dumbass idiot

I didn't call him that. I just don't think he had the means to evade Corlys by himself.

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You may considered the size of the reward, but you simply ignored the possibility of Qarl being smart or lucky enough to escape, because you simply don't want to consider this too, since it won't fit into your story.

I didn't "ignore" it because I "simply don't want to consider" it. I found analysis I linked persuasive. Driftmark belongs to the Velaryons, so it should be very hard to murder the Velaryon heir there and get away with it. Multiple people saw Qarl do it and he had to cut a number of them down to get away from the scene. Anyone on Driftmark who assisted him in his escape could face the wrath of the island's lord. I don't assume Qarl was especially smart or stupid because we have nothing indicating either.

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You may say that Clubfoot killed Harwin and his father, but then there's the question of why now? Why not years earlier?

Larys needs to kill both to inherit (I suppose he could just kill his brother to make himself heir when his father dies eventually). His brother is with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone, while his father is Hand in KL. Viserys sending Harwin back to Harrenhal and Lyonel accompanying him puts them both in Harrenhal, a place where Larys presumably has more connections than Dragonstone. We also know Larys was involved in a lot of skullduggery during the Dance including the assassination of Aegon II, so it would be in-character for him (Corlys was also involved with that poisoning, but I wouldn't expect him to have the same connections in Harrenhal).

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At least he had enough balls to want to execute his brother

Viserys was a real pushover when it came to his brother. He would always forgive him.

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But when Laenor become a threat to his grandchildren

When did he "become" that? Laenor himself didn't seem to change at all.

[Daeron the Daring]

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think the murderer didn't want any apparent connection. If Corlys was continuing to focus on someone who would never be found, that was for the best. 

Not really. If the crime is solved, there's n more need of examining thr backround of Laenor's death.

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I didn't "ignore" it because I "simply don't want to consider" it. I found analysis I linked persuasive. Driftmark belongs to the Velaryons, so it should be very hard to murder the Velaryon heir there and get away with it. Multiple people saw Qarl do it and he had to cut a number of them down to get away from the scene. Anyone on Driftmark who assisted him in his escape could face the wrath of the island's lord. I don't assume Qarl was especially smart or stupid because we have nothing indicating either.

Yes you did ignore. Those analysis aren't much more than what was wrote down in the book. So did KL belonged to the Baratheons, yet Sansa managed to escape (with help of course). We know that Qarl cut down several other peoples too, so he at least had some skills. If he was payed to kill Laenor, we know that he was smart enough to think out how he will act jealousy. But if he was paid, why didn't he kill him in his bed, or anything? Most likely because his actiona weren't planned. That's another suggestion, but you should IGNORE this too, since for you it's evident that Daemon killed Laenor and Larys killed the teo Strongs.

We can continue this, but each time your reply does not include any kind of disprovation, you just IGNORE ewerything and write down the same thing for the 100th time.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Larys needs to kill both to inherit (I suppose he could just kill his brother to make himself heir when his father dies eventually). His brother is with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone, while his father is Hand in KL. Viserys sending Harwin back to Harrenhal and Lyonel accompanying him puts them both in Harrenhal, a place where Larys presumably has more connections than Dragonstone. We also know Larys was involved in a lot of skullduggery during the Dance including the assassination of Aegon II, so it would be in-character for him (Corlys was also involved with that poisoning, but I wouldn't expect him to have the same connections in Harrenhal).

Viserys sent Harwin back to Harrenhall, don't forget it. Clubfoot had several years to kill both, Viserys' intentions just began at that time. I doubt the great Clubfoot had no chance earlier to kill any of his kin if he wanted to. He neither had to kill both at the same time. Viserys killed Harwin just like King David killed Uriah by sending him to the frontline.

 

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Viserys was a real pushover when it came to his brother. He would always forgive him

He did actually want to execute Daemon when he fucked Rhaenyra. Others did not want him to become a kinslayer.

 

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

When did he "become" that? Laenor himself didn't seem to change at all.

When the whispers of the 3 children being Harwin's bastard got louder. Not especially Laenor become the threat, but the things he might have said. I don't know what to say if you don't realise the situation.

[FictionIsntReal]

16 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Those analysis aren't much more than what was wrote down in the book

They begin with the text, and then expand from there, sometimes noting things expected to be in the text but absent. I don't know what more you want.

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Not really. If the crime is solved, there's n more need of examining thr backround of Laenor's death.

What are they going to "examine"? There are no leads.

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So did KL belonged to the Baratheons

No, KL is a crownland territory, not a stormland one traditionally run by the Baratheons. And it wasn't actually the Baratheons in charge of KL when Sansa escaped, but instead the Lannisters (from the westerlands), whose hold on power is recent & tenuous.

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We know that Qarl cut down several other peoples too, so he at least had some skills

He was a knight, those are precisely the skills we would expect him to have.

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If he was payed to kill Laenor, we know that he was smart enough to think out how he will act jealousy

Conditional on him being paid, I don't think we know anything about how smart he was.

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But if he was paid, why didn't he kill him in his bed

We don't know the circumstances of how much access he would have had to Laenor in bed at the time if he'd been passed over, or how easy it would be to escape from Laenor's bedroom at night vs this market during the day.

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you just IGNORE ewerything

I'm not ignoring, I'm responding.

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He neither had to kill both at the same time

It's more difficult to carry out multiple assassination plots in different times & different places. This is just a single fire.

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Viserys killed Harwin just like King David killed Uriah by sending him to the frontline

What? There's no "frontline". And did Viserys want Lyonel Strong dead as well?

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He did actually want to execute Daemon when he fucked Rhaenyra. Others did not want him to become a kinslayer.

That's only according to Eustace. And Viserys DID forgive him and bring him back from exile after Daemon had a child with Laena. Like I said, he was a pushover.

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Not especially Laenor become the threat, but the things he might have said

Laenor had been publicly claiming the children as his own, even succeeding in naming one of them after Joffrey eventually.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 11/4/2020 at 1:48 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

They begin with the text, and then expand from there, sometimes noting things expected to be in the text but absent. I don't know what more you want.

What are they going to "examine"? There are no leads.

No, KL is a crownland territory, not a stormland one traditionally run by the Baratheons. And it wasn't actually the Baratheons in charge of KL when Sansa escaped, but instead the Lannisters (from the westerlands), whose hold on power is recent & tenuous.

He was a knight, those are precisely the skills we would expect him to have.

Conditional on him being paid, I don't think we know anything about how smart he was.

We don't know the circumstances of how much access he would have had to Laenor in bed at the time if he'd been passed over, or how easy it would be to escape from Laenor's bedroom at night vs this market during the day.

I'm not ignoring, I'm responding.

It's more difficult to carry out multiple assassination plots in different times & different places. This is just a single fire.

What? There's no "frontline". And did Viserys want Lyonel Strong dead as well?

That's only according to Eustace. And Viserys DID forgive him and bring him back from exile after Daemon had a child with Laena. Like I said, he was a pushover.

Laenor had been publicly claiming the children as his own, even succeeding in naming one of them after Joffrey eventually.

Well, then. We just simply can not agree about this. Again, I feel like you do not consider anything I write down. You had your assumptions expanded before too, and I see no point of replying again. So let's agree to disagree then.