Who Are The Heroes?

[Curled Finger]

Who will stand for humanity in the fight for light?  Westeros holds some interesting things high on their list of heroic qualities.  They value overcoming disability and transcending their stations in life.  They value martial arts and a good come back.  What they don’t value is chivalry in the purest sense of the word.  It’s all a show to them.  They like their brave people, unless you are a little girl who joins the Nights Watch.  They aren’t big adventurers, but they sure like to fight. 

It’s no secret that I’ve been studying heroes in this story forever.  Those swords need appropriate wielders.  This late in the game I find myself applying Dick Crabb’s method for establishing heroes: discount anyone else’s hero with a bigger guy in better armor with a super long weapon and maybe complicated asthma.  No, that doesn’t really work better, but it does make me wonder what heroic really is in Westeros. 

I’m not trying to bash any one character and I’ve got 9 of ? determined for the stand against the Others that is coming.  Believe it.  Jamie’s got an interesting couple of back to back meetings in the Riverlands, with Jonos Bracken and Tytos Blackwood.  Bracken is corrupt and sneaky while Blackwood is a stand up guy.  We know who Jamie ends of favoring.  So let’s add honest, maybe humble, to the list of heroic qualities.

Let’s establish some rules.   These heroes making the last stand for humanity have to be real heroes.   They’ve got to be physically capable of wielding swords, maybe dragon glass (there is always room for archers).  I don’t need swords matched unless that’s your thing, in which case have at it.  I want the reasons you think they are heroic in their setting.    I love Sam.  Ain’t no way he will be wielding anything for close work, but hell yes he can shoot an arrow.  I’m not looking for best fighters.  I want men and women and children with the hearts and minds of heroes and some martial skill and a little belief wouldn’t hurt.  I’d appreciate a sampling of all the realm, from beyond the Wall, if there are any, to the Mountain Clans of the Vale to the Iron Islands and all Westeros between them. What say ye, book club?   

[CamiloRP]

To be honest, I don't think this will happen. The story hasn't led me to believe that war will save humanity in any way, that doesn't sound like Martin. But what does sound like him is making the heroes not the ones you'd expect, so I think Brianne, Jaime, Theon and The Hound would be prudent choices. Brianne being a woman would be enough of a subversion and she has shown time and again to be a good person. Jaime being a cripple and an attempted child murderer an kingslayer is obvious, likewise for Theon (tho Jaime has shown some amount of care for the smallfolk, and Theon hasn't). The Hound also has shown to care for protecting the weak, and being a grotesque looking guy who was first presented to us as an actual monster under a psycho's command, it's also a subversion of sorts.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

45 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Who will stand for humanity in the fight for light?  Westeros holds some interesting things high on their list of heroic qualities.  They value overcoming disability and transcending their stations in life.  They value martial arts and a good come back.  What they don’t value is chivalry in the purest sense of the word.  It’s all a show to them.  They like their brave people, unless you are a little girl who joins the Nights Watch.  They aren’t big adventurers, but they sure like to fight. 

It’s no secret that I’ve been studying heroes in this story forever.  Those swords need appropriate wielders.  This late in the game I find myself applying Dick Crabb’s method for establishing heroes: discount anyone else’s hero with a bigger guy in better armor with a super long weapon and maybe complicated asthma.  No, that doesn’t really work better, but it does make me wonder what heroic really is in Westeros. 

I’m not trying to bash any one character and I’ve got 9 of ? determined for the stand against the Others that is coming.  Believe it.  Jamie’s got an interesting couple of back to back meetings in the Riverlands, with Jonos Bracken and Tytos Blackwood.  Bracken is corrupt and sneaky while Blackwood is a stand up guy.  We know who Jamie ends of favoring.  So let’s add honest, maybe humble, to the list of heroic qualities.

Let’s establish some rules.   These heroes making the last stand for humanity have to be real heroes.   They’ve got to be physically capable of wielding swords, maybe dragon glass (there is always room for archers).  I don’t need swords matched unless that’s your thing, in which case have at it.  I want the reasons you think they are heroic in their setting.    I love Sam.  Ain’t no way he will be wielding anything for close work, but hell yes he can shoot an arrow.  I’m not looking for best fighters.  I want men and women and children with the hearts and minds of heroes and some martial skill and a little belief wouldn’t hurt.  I’d appreciate a sampling of all the realm, from beyond the Wall, if there are any, to the Mountain Clans of the Vale to the Iron Islands and all Westeros between them. What say ye, book club?   

I think your sword holders are going to end up wightified.  And it will indeed be humanity's failed stand if the leader is a sword-holding "hero."  The lead hero to me is a lovely young, blonde female riding the dragon she hatched.  The sword holders would be wise to accept her leadership. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Prolly about half the POV characters, if not a few more.

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

To be honest, I don't think this will happen. The story hasn't led me to believe that war will save humanity in any way, that doesn't sound like Martin. But what does sound like him is making the heroes not the ones you'd expect, so I think Brianne, Jaime, Theon and The Hound would be prudent choices. Brianne being a woman would be enough of a subversion and she has shown time and again to be a good person. Jaime being a cripple and an attempted child murderer an kingslayer is obvious, likewise for Theon (tho Jaime has shown some amount of care for the smallfolk, and Theon hasn't). The Hound also has shown to care for protecting the weak, and being a grotesque looking guy who was first presented to us as an actual monster under a psycho's command, it's also a subversion of sorts.

You are thinking exactly what I'm thinking, Pinky.  The heroes aren't the pretty ones in the nice armor.  They are dirty and maimed and brave.  That's me, not Westeros.  

I know you don't go in on the Battle for Dawn idea, but I hope you will check in as I see a few folks have replied.  I've been chatting with @Universal Sword Donorfor years.   He's always got some interesting ideas.   Check in so maybe you can envision this battle.  

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Prolly about half the POV characters, if not a few more.

And I just talked you up so well.  Sigh. 

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I think your sword holders are going to end up wightified.  And it will indeed be humanity's last stand if the leader is a sword-holding "hero."  The lead hero to me is a lovely young, blonde female riding the dragon she hatched.  The sword holders would be wise to accept her leadership. 

Not exactly what I was looking for but I appreciate your thoughts on this.   If nothing else I am glad you see a battle on the horizon.  

[Aline de Gavrillac]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Not exactly what I was looking for but I appreciate your thoughts on this.   If nothing else I am glad you see a battle on the horizon.  

I answered based on your conditions.  With some improvements of my own.  TBH, the only solution is to move out and wait until the west is again ready for the living. 

[CamiloRP]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You are thinking exactly what I'm thinking, Pinky.    

Hey! Who made you The Brain?

 

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I know you don't go in on the Battle for Dawn idea, but I hope you will check in as I see a few folks have replied.  I've been chatting with @Universal Sword Donorfor years.   He's always got some interesting ideas.   Check in so maybe you can envision this battle.  

Will do!

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I answered based on your conditions.  With some improvements of my own.  TBH, the only solution is to move out and wait until the west is again ready for the living. 

You could be right, but this battle is what I've been reading for.  I like what Martin does with heroes.  And villains.  

[Curled Finger]

Just now, CamiloRP said:

Hey! Who made you The Brain?

 

Will do!

My topic, you were thinking what I was thinking!  Tomorrow we take over the world. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

And I just talked you up so well.  Sigh. 

Give me a few more minutes. I am only on my first beer.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I answered based on your conditions.  With some improvements of my own.  TBH, the only solution is to move out and wait until the west is again ready for the living. 

Well, maybe you would like to elaborate on the character you think is heroic?  What makes her a hero? She is a little out of bounds, but she was born in Westeros so she counts.   I reckon that qualifies Tyrion, Barristan and Jorah, too. 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

Give me a few more minutes. I am only on my first beer.

That's the guy I recall!  Names would help while you're thinking about it.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

I'll break my candidates down by tiers, with more or less explanation for the less likely candidates depending on how much I've drank. We might even get some crackpots

 

Captain Obvious Category

• Jon Snow - Based on everything we know he's likely either Azor Ahai or TPtwP. He's got Longclaw, morals / virtues, and doesn't want humanity to die based on his actions at the wall.
• Dany - She has 3 nuclear weapons and a savior complex in addition to genuine empathy and distress for her subjects and protectees.
• Brienne - lol come on
• Jaime - already saved 500K people from burning to death; redemption arc in full swing; starting to use a sword again

Almost Certain Emmy Nominees for Best Supporting Actors

• Thoros of Myr - Already fighting for justice. Transformed man; transitioned from the drink to the excitement for the rush
• Sandor Clegane - Man is digging graves now with a limp. Protected the weak (Arya)
• Arya - More or less a psychopath now (through no fault of her own) ((or some)) but she knows how to wield a blade and she'll be deathly loyal to her family and Westeros by proxy.

I'll add more later

[Curled Finger]

Nice list so far @Universal Sword Donor  Your concise list of heroic traits is sterling.  Loved the breakdown on Thoros and Arya, truth be told.  Arya is a visceral sort of hero like the Valkerie as sweetsunray once wrote.  You brought some very nice balance to some controversial characters.  These are very much in line with my own thinking about all of them.  I like listing the heroic traits of these characters so they don't end up looking like the Dirty Dozen or maybe just beyond their controversy.  It's an all star line up.  Can't wait to see what you come up with when someone gets you some proper whiskey to compose with.  

[Yaya]

arrr & ahoy everyone !   hiya CF !

let's not forget about Bran & his crew - there is a hero potential in that there group.

probably be Bran with his all-beast-warging skills & developing psychic tree abilities. 

he wants to do right, he was learning about leadership/stewarding when he was the "the Stark" in Winterfell; i do believe he has alot of heroism in him. 
how that will work out i do not know.
as for any sort of sword-matching for Bran ... he is the broken sword or he is the wielder of all swords in a philosophical way.  maybe.

 arrr - bring on the beer   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Yaya said:

arrr & ahoy everyone !   hiya CF !

let's not forget about Bran & his crew - there is a hero potential in that there group.

probably be Bran with his all-beast-warging skills & developing psychic tree abilities. 

he wants to do right, he was learning about leadership/stewarding when he was the "the Stark" in Winterfell; i do believe he has alot of heroism in him. 
how that will work out i do not know.
as for any sort of sword-matching for Bran ... he is the broken sword or he is the wielder of all swords in a philosophical way.  maybe.

 arrr - bring on the beer   

Hey Yaya, good to see you.  I began writing down the qualities listed in here and thought about you!  You're right about everyone in Bran's company.  Meera gets a lot of love, but I think Hodor and Jojen are also heroic in their quieter ways.  Meera's a badass.  They are not.  But Bran is and you highlight his noble qualities as seen at Winterfell and accepting his role in Robb's absence.  That's huge, really.  Of course with all the warging and psychic tree abilities he's got, he may be way too busy to wield a sword, even though I think he could pull it off in my heart.  

Good call all the way around.  

[Lady Dacey]

Who are the heroes? What *is* a hero, there in Westeros? Such good questions. Your prompting has sent me spiraling into the search of ice and fire tool to try and sort some stuff out. I’m quite methodical in my research, and forever a procrastinator – I should be working on a systematic review of the literature on school food programs and instead I’m going through 134 appearances of the word “hero” in the main series. I decided to leave out the Dunk and Egg tales and other supplementary material such as TWOIAF and all that Targaryen madness for tonight, to save resources, but I’m pretty sure Dunk would have a lot to add to this conversation. To let us dive in, shall we?

Early in Game Bran and Catelyn both introduce us to the vague notion of a certain ‘age o heroes’, but the first POV to call out *a hero* is Jon.            

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"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

Oh, sweet summer child… Benjen is quick to disabuse Jon of the heroicness of Daeren               

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“A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"

So, is Daeren a hero? I was inclined to say no, but then… is Robb a hero? The Young Wolf and the Young Dragon are clear cut parallels, and even if I admire Robb, we are certain he is not a hero in the story going forward, given that he’s dead. Was he a hero, though? I say so. A classical one. But are those the ones we are looking for?

Then Bran IV gives us this               

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"In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, *felled heroes* and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain(…)

Heroes are felled by none other than the Others. Do heroes die all the time in this story? Are they destined to perish? I mean, we all are, but is there something unique to these westerosi heroes that marks their passing?

And the story we obsess over:           

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(...)So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions.(…)

We have a *last hero* and isn’t it interesting that he’s got a dozen *companions* that aren’t named heroes? Are they the people we’re looking for, maybe? I wonder. I wander… Wandering through the text somewhat aimlessly always takes me places.

It is Hodor who interrupts Old Nan’s telling of this story, and he takes Bran to see the black brother Yoren. They disuss Benjen Stark:               

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"Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out."

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

Isn’t Bran describing his own arc here? Is Bran a hero figure? What does that make Jojen and Meera and Hodor and his other *companions*? Not sure if this is what we’re looking for here.

That takes us to Jon IV, and here things begin to become really interesting:   

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He wondered what Tyrion would have made of the fat boy. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, the dwarf had told him, grinning. The world was full of cravens who pretended to be heroes; it took a queer sort of courage to admit to cowardice as Samwell Tarly had.

This is some character growth already for Jon, I’ll wager, and also points for Sam who seems to evermore fit our framework for hero, though not the westerosi one.

I’m skimming over some more age of heroes stuff (it’s perhaps interesting that “age o heroes” wasn’t capitalized the first times it showed up, but later it is) and we get Sansa still in her golden-tinted day dream thinking stuff like this:               

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Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful

This called my attention               

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"Lord Beric is as much a hero as Ser Loras. He's ever so brave and gallant."

"I suppose," Sansa said doubtfully. Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better.

Jeyne Poole, you’re onto something! Beric is indeed a hero, almost an undisputed one, right? Such a pity Harwin begged him to kiss the dead Lady Catelyn. Is Stoneheart a hero? Far from it, me thinks.

Game comes to an end with Sansa learning there are no heroes. It’s the end of childhood to the Starklings. In this first book, heroes seem to be some old forgotten thing. Daenerys Targaryen finds stolen heroes in Vaes Dothrak, the Age of Heroes is brought up several (several!) times over, and heroes exist mostly in songs and tales.

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Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. "Life is not a song, sweetling," he'd told her. "You may learn that one day to your sorrow." In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound's voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. "Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants."

This is the last mention of the word “hero” in Game. And there we have the Hound. I'm exited. 

Let’s see what Clash presents us with?

[Lady Dacey]

Into Clash we go, but I'll have to focus on the other books some other day, because it's really late and I do have work to do. 

Davos I in Clash is the first time ‘hero’ comes up, in the form of the (captalized) Red Sword of Heroes. Are we getting closer, or further away from what we mean to unearth? I never know with this series.

Salladhor Saan, the colorful Lyseni pirate, gives us this:

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"A sword plucked from fire, yes. Men tell me things, it is my pleasant smile. How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis?"

"A burning sword," corrected Davos.

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been.

So Saan is quite convinced Stannis is not *the* hero. But do we agree with him? Is the teeth-grinding lord one of *our* heroes. Don’t get me wrong, I really like the guy, but me thinks not. He’s a commander and a strategist, but definitely not the sort to sacrifice himself (I count that in the musts for heroic qualities, now that I come to think of it). He came to the rescue of the Night’s Watch and that is admirable, but does it make him a hero? What about whatever shenanigans he is up to with the old gods and Theon and Asha (“The Sacrifice”) in Winds? I’m more lost than found, but I’m having fun here.

Salladhor Saan also says this:

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"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began.

This is about the whole Azor Ahai forging the sword thing. The grapes strike me. They make me think of the fox and the grapes fable, and how some people will claim sour grapes when they can’t get their hands on what they want. Not a hero though, a hero persists. Notice Saan’s use of “a” and not “the” hero, are there heroes aplenty in his narrative? Saan’s grapes are excellent, not sour at all. He’s got them, and he seems to disdain of the heroic qualities that prevent people from enjoying such pleasures in life.

Still on Davos I, you guys, there is so much here!

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A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost . . . When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good-natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided.

Allow me to politely disagree, Onion Knight. You are a perfect hero candidate. You’re defiant and persistent and willing to sacrifice enough to be one. Your stay in the Wolf’s Den is quite the proof, if everything you did before was not already. And there again the question of the costs of magic. Who pays the price? If we’re considering the sacrifice angle, the hero himself should pay, not his innocent loved one, amiright? Or is this one of those occasions man's feelings overshadow woman’s objective struggles (like as in “poor Azor Ahai suffered so much when he killed the woman he loved because he had to” becoming much more important than “Nissa Nissa was sacrificed without ever knowing what was happening”) If Nissa Nissa willingly decided to sacrifice in order to make the Red Sword of Heroes possible, she’d definitely be a hero. The was it’s written, she’s just a casualty and a prop in Azor’s story. But I digress.

Then we get Dontos telling Sansa he’s never been a hero (agreed) and Daenerys seeing heroes painted in Qarth’s walls, and back to Davos II, we get this:

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"They remind me of what I was. Where I came from. They remind me of your justice, my liege."

"It was justice," Stannis said. "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward. You were a hero and a smuggler."

HAR! There it is! Stannis himself disagrees with Davos saying he’s not made of the stuff of heroes. Smuggling onions made him a hero, he saved the garrison.

Back to Jon, I find this very very interesting:

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"There are goats among these sheep, Thoren," warned Jarman Buckwell. "Aye, and maybe a few lions. Rattleshirt, Harma the Dogshead, Alfyn Crowkiller . . ."

"I know them as well as you do, Buckwell," Thoren Smallwood snapped back. "And I mean to have their heads, every one. These are wildlings. No soldiers. A few hundred heroes, drunk most like, amidst a great horde of women, children, and thralls. We will sweep over them and send them howling back to their hovels."

Curled Finger asked about heroes beyond the Wall. With contempt, Thoren Smallwood says the wildings are heroes, not soldiers. How does that inform us? Later among them, Jon will tell us the free folk fight bravely but disorderly, fiercely but recklessly. Is that in the making of a hero? It doesn’t fit very well with the two heroes I’ve so far elected, Sam and Davos.

Besides this rich initial chapters, Clash is the book meagerer in terms of “heroes” spoken about. Daenerys says cloth dragons are what mummers use “to give heroes something to fight”, Tyrion dreams of being hailed are a hero, and a new concept is brought to light: that of “hero of the Blackwater”. This last one ties back to Brienne, who will travel together with men claiming such accolades, and of course also to the Kettleblacks and to… the Hound, again. While unsavory hedge knight and former sell swords of dubious loyalty are the named heroes of that green slaughterhouse of a battle; of Sandor Clegane, it’s said he “lost his belly for fighting at the Blackwater”. I’ll put Sandor up in our pantheon of heroes as well, most definitely. He’s earned it.