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the god on earth

waking stone dragons

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20 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Stone in often used as a metaphor for lacking compassion and empathy. Whatever waking a stone dragon means...its probably not good.

Or it could simply mean hatching dragons from eggs,which are discribed as stone.:)

Man,I do hope Westeros won't need dragons against The Others because assumptions like yours,seeing only bad in a house or because you simply don't like Dany or dragons would make you and others that think like you,a fool of a Took.:lol:

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19 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Or it could simply mean hatching dragons from eggs,which are discribed as stone.:)

Man,I do hope Westeros won't need dragons against The Others because assumptions like yours,seeing only bad in a house or because you simply don't like Dany or dragons would make you and others that think like you,a fool of a Took.:lol:

Yes there is that literal interpretation too, which is a nice Occam's Razor slice.

But my previous post about stone=lacking compassion was taken from GRRM.

There are 3 characters who have foreshadowing for having hearts of stone - Dany, Jon, and Catelyn. This isn't just an "assumption" out of thin air.

 

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39 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes there is that literal interpretation too, which is a nice Occam's Razor slice.

But my previous post about stone=lacking compassion was taken from GRRM.

There are 3 characters who have foreshadowing for having hearts of stone - Dany, Jon, and Catelyn. This isn't just an "assumption" out of thin air.

 

You said that "Whatever waking a stone dragon means...its probably bad".

Give clues or I think this is an assumprtion out of thin air.As long as Westeros and probably the rest of Planetos will need dragons to survive The Others I will say they are good.

I've read Catelyn's chapters and it's a reason why she is called "Lady Stoneheart" and I know Martin said Berric and her are a foreshadowing of Jon but to what degree?I don't think he will a copy of them two.As for Dany'I don't know what you took as a foreshadow of her heaving a stone heart.All characters will have a hardened heart as they had in the begining because of their growing and hardships.

Plus,you can call it foreshadowing AFTER the things are said and done when you go back and try to find clues.Until the story is finished,the end of the characters will always be a guess not a foreshadow.

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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4 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

You said that "Whatever waking a stone dragon means...its probably bad".

Give clues or I think this is an assumprtion out of thin air.As long as Westeros and probably the rest of Planetos will need dragons to survive The Others I will say they are good.

I've read Catelyn's chapter and it's a reason why she is called "Lady Stoneheart" and I know Martin said Berric and her are a foreshadowing of Jon but to what degree?I don't think he will a copy of thwm two.As for Dany'I don't know what you took as a foreshadow of her heaving a stone heart.All characters will have a hardened heart as they had in the begining because of their growing and hardships.

Plus,you can call it foreshadowing AFTER the things are said and done when you go back and try to find clues.Until the story is finished,the end of the characters will always be a guess not a foreshadow.

We have confirmation that Catelyn was foreshadowed to turn into Stoneheart with the line from AGOT: "Sometimes she [Catelyn] felt as though her heart had turned to stone." Extending from that, Dany and Jon both have similar remarks. Sam asks Aemon when Jon's heart turned to stone, and Barristan warns Dany that if she stays in Slaver's Bay her heart will turn to brick (she also remarks that the Unsullied have brick hearts). So Dany and Jon have similar foreshadowing techniques as Catelyn did. That's why I'm saying stone/dragon/stone heart it's not a positive analogy. 

Also relating to stone dragons - look at how Davos talks about stone dragons on Dragonstone, hoping that they never wake. This an ominous narrative mood that exists outside of Mel and Dany's POV's on the matter. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

We have confirmation that Catelyn was foreshadowed to turn into Stoneheart with the line from AGOT: "Sometimes she [Catelyn] felt as though her heart had turned to stone." Extending from that, Dany and Jon both have similar remarks. Sam asks Aemon when Jon's heart turned to stone, and Barristan warns Dany that if she stays in Slaver's Bay her heart will turn to brick (she also remarks that the Unsullied have brick hearts). So Dany and Jon have similar foreshadowing techniques as Catelyn did. That's why I'm saying stone/dragon/stone heart it's not a positive analogy. 

Also relating to stone dragons - look at how Davos talks about stone dragons on Dragonstone, hoping that they never wake. This an ominous narrative mood that exists outside of Mel and Dany's POV's on the matter. 

 

Yes,dragons are terrifying things but what I'm trying to say is that there is a good thing in them too : protection.And that's what Westeros will need the most.

And yes,both Dany and Jon have a hardened heart due to what they've seen and what they have been through,as many of other characters like Sansa,Arya,Brienne,etc. 

And they still have a hell ahead.

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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3 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Yes,dragons are terrifying things but what I'm trying to say is that there is a good thing in them too : protection.And that's what Westeros will need the most.

And yes,both Dany and Jon have a hardened heart due to what they've seen and what they have been through,as many of other characters like Sansa,Arya,Brienne,etc. 

And they still have a hell ahead.

It's very easy to turn into a compassionless killing machine on the way there, though. Just look at what happened to Dany after one dragon flight. She excused away all the people burned in the pits and said it was all worth it; and completely changed direction and decided that she didn't want to rebuild Meereen. ONE dragon flight!

GRRM has to deal with realistic takes on power - what would flying around on a nuke actually do to people. Probably give them delusions of grandeur, reinforce beliefs of exceptionalism, and encourage the worst in us.

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27 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

You said that "Whatever waking a stone dragon means...its probably bad".

Give clues or I think this is an assumprtion out of thin air.As long as Westeros and probably the rest of Planetos will need dragons to survive The Others I will say they are good.

Given how the story is written, and how GRRM generally writes and what he writes about, I think there are little odds that humanity is saved from an all evil race by nuclear weapons. Also, raiderless dragons are more likely to be taken by other people, likely people who want to use them for war, meaning that now war is much more deadly.

George is a hippie, war will not save humanity, and nukes won't either.

 

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37 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's very easy to turn into a compassionless killing machine on the way there, though. Just look at what happened to Dany after one dragon flight. She excused away all the people burned in the pits and said it was all worth it; and completely changed direction and decided that she didn't want to rebuild Meereen. ONE dragon flight!

GRRM has to deal with realistic takes on power - what would flying around on a nuke actually do to people. Probably give them delusions of grandeur, reinforce beliefs of exceptionalism, and encourage the worst in us.

Again,you misinterpret the text as it suits you.She thinks that if she would fall and die it would be all worth it.Not that all the lifes from the pit were worth it just to fly Drogon.She was thinking of HER LIFE.

She remembers the scene: all the chaos,all the dead and Drogon taking her up : 

Drogon clawed his way into the sky. Up and up and up he'd borne her, high above the pyramids and pits, his wings outstretched to catch the warm air rising from the city's sun baked bricks. If I fall and die, it will still have been worth it, she had thought. 

See??She thinks "If I fall and die [...]".

And again,you are assuming too much.Until now I don't see her character with a delusion of grandor.You are cunfusing her with Cersei.But it's ok since you wish to poke every whole to mock a character and see faults where there are not.I'm not saing she has no fault but you judge very much on what MAY be and you tend to misinterpret many things around her 

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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20 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Given how the story is written, and how GRRM generally writes and what he writes about, I think there are little odds that humanity is saved from an all evil race by nuclear weapons. Also, raiderless dragons are more likely to be taken by other people, likely people who want to use them for war, meaning that now war is much more deadly.

George is a hippie, war will not save humanity, and nukes won't either.

 

All I know is that The Others are the greater threat to Westeros and humanity and that fire and dragonglass help against them.We'll have to read the rest of the story before pinning a certain character as an Ultimate Evil or as a Hero don't you think?

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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26 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Again,you misinterpret the text as it suits you.She thinks that if she would fall and die it would be all worth it.Not that all the lifes from the pit were worth it just to fly Drogon.She was thinking of HER LIFE.

She remembers the scene: all the chaos,all the dead and Drogon taking her up : 

Drogon clawed his way into the sky. Up and up and up he'd borne her, high above the pyramids and pits, his wings outstretched to catch the warm air rising from the city's sun baked bricks. If I fall and die, it will still have been worth it, she had thought. 

See??She thinks "If I fall and die [...]".

That line is put right after the previous paragraph when she remembers “Dany saw the color vividly, but not the woman’s face. People were stepping on her as they lay tangled on the bricks. Some were on fire.” But no commentary on this - because she switches immediately to how wonderful it was to fly. So the implication is that people on fire doesn't matter, what's more important to her is... flying on Drogon? 

Quote

And again,you are assuming too much.Until now I don't see her character with a delusion of grandor.You are cunfusing her with Cersei.But it's ok since you wish to poke every whole to mock a character and see faults where there are not.I'm not saing she has no fault but you judge very much on what MAY be and you tend to misinterpret many things around her.

It's hard to say what is misinterpreting when Dany's purpose in the story is to show what effect great power has on a person. This isn't me making up whatever I want, it's just what GRRM has said in interviews so what affect do you think think this power is having?

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49 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That line is put right after the previous paragraph when she remembers “Dany saw the color vividly, but not the woman’s face. People were stepping on her as they lay tangled on the bricks. Some were on fire.” But no commentary on this - because she switches immediately to how wonderful it was to fly. So the implication is that people on fire doesn't matter, what's more important to her is... flying on Drogon? 

It's hard to say what is misinterpreting when Dany's purpose in the story is to show what effect great power has on a person. This isn't me making up whatever I want, it's just what GRRM has said in interviews so what affect do you think think this power is having?

As I said to you in other replies,I think she has to find when to use her dragons.She will have to fight against Volantis,as they already started a war with her,it will be in her best to avoid or battle Euron and she will finally fulfill her dream and destiny battleing The Others.She,like Jon,will have to learn how to rule and that means they will have to know when and with whom they have to ally or battle.

And about the people in the pit,she does not think they don't matter.I don't know where did you get it from.She neither mourns them but why should she??They attacked her child under Hizdar's order and of what she knows he might have tried to poison her.Plus,if they would have not started the attack things might have gone differently.

Add to that the fact that more people would have died if she would not have taken Drogon away and I would say she did all those people a favour and many died because they panicked and stumbled one another.

Now if you don't mind I'll log off.I'll reply later if I see an answer 

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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1 hour ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

All I know is that The Others are the greater threat to Westeros and humanity and that fire and dragonglass help against them.We'll have to read the rest of the story before pinning a certain character as an Ultimate Evil or as a Hero don't you think?

I'm not saying Dany will be a villain, I doubt she will and I wouldn't like her to be. But I think that GRRM wouldn't write a story in which humanity is endangered by an all evil race and it's saved by war. That's my problem with what you said earlier. 

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10 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm not saying Dany will be a villain, I doubt she will and I wouldn't like her to be. But I think that GRRM wouldn't write a story in which humanity is endangered by an all evil race and it's saved by war. That's my problem with what you said earlier. 

I also think it's something more to The Others but we'll have to see what it takes to end the Long Night.I do think they will have to battle but as you said,war might not be the answer.Maybe a sacrifice as another pact?

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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44 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

As I said to you in other replies,I think she has to find when t

Noeo use her dragons.She will have to fight against Volantis,as they already started a war with her,it will be in her best to avoid or battle Euron and she will finally fulfill her dream and destiny battleing The Others.She,like Jon,will have to learn how to rule and that means they will have to know when and with whom they have to ally or battle.

And about the people in the pit,she does not think they don't matter.I don't know where did you get it from.She neither mourns them but why should she??They attacked her child under Hizdar's order and of what she knows he might have tried to poison her.Plus,if they would have not started the attack things might have gone differently.

Add to that the fact that more people would have died if she would not have taken Drogon away and I would say she did all those people a favour and many died because they panicked and stumbled one another.

Now if you don't mind I'll log off.I'll reply later if I see an answer 

"They attacked her child" Okay....that's my point. She prioritizes her dragon over actual people. That's BAD.

Back to her "heart turning to brick"  - she should care about who is burned because of her actions. But she's not. As I illustrated in the text by her immediately thinking about flying, and not the dead people she burned.

Later, there is the line about her tears being burned away. There is the line about her not planting trees (TREES - the source of all life!!).

These are all metaphors for loss of compassion. I can't express it any other way - this is not "becoming harder to fight the Others." It's becoming harder to take the Iron Throne because that's what she thinks she needs to do at the end of the novel. Not valuing life.

And she does not act to "save" those people, she acts to save Drogon - as you said. When he screams, she screams. She wants to ride Drogon. It makes her happy and fulfilled. If it was a sacrifice it wouldn't do that. Sacrifices are supposed to be something hard; something you don't want to do. She had the time of her life on that ride; meanwhile below, people's skin was melting.

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20 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

I also think it's something more to The Others but we'll have to see what it takes to end the Long Night.I do think they will have to battle but as you said,war might not be the answer.Maybe a sacrifice as another pact?

I have a theory on Jon being the sacrifice (you can read it in my signature "The Others, The Nightfort, The Lord's Right and the TOJ").

I'm not so sure about it tho, but I do think some form of pact will be achieved.

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On 12/8/2020 at 4:13 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

"They attacked her child" Okay....that's my point. She prioritizes her dragon over actual people. That's BAD.

Back to her "heart turning to brick"  - she should care about who is burned because of her actions. But she's not. As I illustrated in the text by her immediately thinking about flying, and not the dead people she burned.

Later, there is the line about her tears being burned away. There is the line about her not planting trees (TREES - the source of all life!!).

These are all metaphors for loss of compassion. I can't express it any other way - this is not "becoming harder to fight the Others." It's becoming harder to take the Iron Throne because that's what she thinks she needs to do at the end of the novel. Not valuing life.

And she does not act to "save" those people, she acts to save Drogon - as you said. When he screams, she screams. She wants to ride Drogon. It makes her happy and fulfilled. If it was a sacrifice it wouldn't do that. Sacrifices are supposed to be something hard; something you don't want to do. She had the time of her life on that ride; meanwhile below, people's skin was melting.

You have to realize that these terrifing dragons you keep preeching against are the only conection with her family,her house.I do not think she disregards human life but of course she jumps to save Drogon.Would Jon just stand and watch how Ghost is attacked?Did Arya let Nimerya get killed?Would Bran let Summer die in the hands of a human just because you know,dierwolfs are also beasts?Would Rickon do the same?What would Sansa give to have Lady back?

This comes a little bit like double standards to me because dragons are to Dany what direwolfs are to the Starks and I love them all.I find them beautiful and powerful as terrible and protective.

And again,she was thinking that the sacrifice of her life would have been worth it,not the life of the others.If in real life people are willing to do so flying in space or a plane,like pilots do,imagine being able to feel the wind and touch the clouds.As hard as you may believe,people are willing to lose everyting for that moment of happiness,specially when they had so little.She is having the time of her life with that ride because she was free for the first time.

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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On 11/21/2020 at 1:35 AM, CamiloRP said:

Not my point, George has written many stories against religious extremism, in all of the stories they appear, religious visions are shown to be a lie designed to manipulate people into doing awful things. He usually writes against religious extremists. That's Why I find it weird that people seem to give credence to any form of religious visions (Weirwood net included) but especially to R'hlor, likely the most disgusting, violent, horrible religion with prevalence in the story.

You do realize that in AsoIaF the visions that are associated with 'religion' (weirwood net for instance) are actually magical and not religious at all? People ascribe them to 'religion' but they aren't. That's what he shows us. It's not religion at all - only the believers persuade themselves it was.

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13 minutes ago, Amris said:

You do realize that in AsoIaF the visions that are associated with 'religion' (weirwood net for instance) are actually magical and not religious at all? People ascribe them to 'religion' but they aren't. That's what he shows us. It's not religion at all - only the believers persuade themselves it was.

Yes I do, but it's still religion. Catholics believe in the Bible, if we find out that it was a work of fiction written by an old-timey JRR Tolkien it would still be religious. The religion of R'hllor is based on those visions, and the religion encourages burning people alive, Red Raloo's followers are the most dangerous of all religious figures, and that religion is the most violent one. Why would GRRM make this guys out to be right?

Also, it's not the believers persuading themselves, Lancel was visited by someone who purposely made him think they were the Seven, he was not particularly religious before that, so he wan't prone to have a dream and think it was the seven, but someone thought it was beneficial to make him believe they were.

Also also, the fact that visions are magic is an important point that both the series and I are making, who sends the visions? Why? What's the purpose of showing the future if it's already set? What does the vision sender gain by sending visions? In the case of Lancel he was manipulated into abandoning his wife and title, confessing to crimes, not eating and joining the Warrior's Sons, most were things he didn't want to do if you would ask him. Mel sees Renly winning at the Blackwater, which causes Stannis to murder Renly, which causes Renly to win at the Blackwater, if the vision wasn't sent, it wouldn't have come true. And we see through Bran's perspective that he tries his hardest to make visions fit reality. 

 

"Why would the gods send a warning if we can't heed it and change what's to come?"

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On 11/12/2020 at 3:17 AM, the god on earth said:

So according to Melisandre you can use kingsblood to wake stone dragons.

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons from stone."

so is this only possible for Azor Ahai? because the tragedy of summerhal seems quite a good ritual to wake dragons from stone, as king Aegon V meant to hatch them with wildfire, this backfired and killed a lot of people including Targaryens (king's blood). why didn't dragons hatch then? If they only hatch for Azor Ahai this means Dany is Azor Ahai reborn since she was able to wake dragons from stone. And if the king's blood must be a sacrifice to the red god when why did they hatch with daenerys, she wasn't into the red god at that point.

That's right. 

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On 11/12/2020 at 3:17 AM, the god on earth said:

So according to Melisandre you can use kingsblood to wake stone dragons.

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons from stone."

so is this only possible for Azor Ahai? because the tragedy of summerhal seems quite a good ritual to wake dragons from stone, as king Aegon V meant to hatch them with wildfire, this backfired and killed a lot of people including Targaryens (king's blood). why didn't dragons hatch then? If they only hatch for Azor Ahai this means Dany is Azor Ahai reborn since she was able to wake dragons from stone. And if the king's blood must be a sacrifice to the red god when why did they hatch with daenerys, she wasn't into the red god at that point.

If Jon is Azor Ahai, and if he died, and if Melisandre brings him back to life, he will be a dragon woken from stone. 

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