CamiloRP Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: You really can't be sure of that. We don't know when Doran started planning this mission for Quentyn. Quentyn could possibly have been with Lord Yronwood's host in the Boneway as early as Davos II, ACoK 42. Books may not seem all that important when you think that you might be going to war anytime now. Whatever books Maester Kedry brought with him could have been left behind in Volantis with the armors and the gold. As per Quents character he would've read anything important for the mission, and he laments not having read books on dragons, likely because he didn't have an opportunity. His mission is about dragons, so the books would be very important in his voyage. Quote Barristan mentions in passing that the pact was signed by two dead men. Quentyn doesn't know that Oberyn is dead, he left Westeros before it happened, leaving the Sealord and Willem Darry as the two dead men. Honestly, that's a great observation I hadn't noticed before. I do think he's talking about Oberyn tho, and it's likely author error. But only by the way it's phrased. He doesn't say 'It was signed by three men, two of them dead". He says Quote "—was made by two dead men and contained not a word about the queen or you." The Sealord didn't make the pact, he just witnessed it. Quote Maybe he doesn't trust her reaction to his plan. He can't tell Mellario that he is sending Quentyn to Slaver's Bay without telling her the why of it. And Mellario is an odd bird. She flipped out when Doran told her that he was sending Quentyn to be fostered with Yronwood. She threatened to harm herself when he told her that he might be sending Arianne to Tyrosh to serve in the Archon's court. Then she ups and leaves, abandoning all three children and it has been years since they even saw her. Like WTF! Yes, there are many things wrong with Dorne as a whole, not just Mellario. But she wouldn't try to hurt her child, nor held him against his will, so she could've just provided a ship and crew for them to continue their travel. Quote I should have gone to Norvos to see my mother and the place that gave her birth, so she would know I had not forgotten her. Yes, this is a dumb mistake. I mistook Mellario's hometown (Norvos) with Lady Nym's mother's hometown (Volantis) another woman who could've set them up with a ship and crew. Quote The Archon of Tyrosh was not involved in the pact. The plan was to foster Arianne there until Mellario objected. Yes, and have her meet Viserys, so wouldn't the Archon know she was meeting him? Quote And again, the more people who know about a secret conspiracy, the more chances there is that the secret conspiracy will be uncovered. Look how things went for Arianne when she tried to crown Myrcella. The people involved in the OG pact are: the Sealord, Oberyn, Derry and Doran. Doran later involves the Archon with the fostering of Arianne. In Tyrosh the Archon wouldn't be the only one to know about the secret meeting, likely a few people as well, be them Tyroshi or Dornish. He then involves Quent's entourage and presumably Lord Yronwood. This plan already involves far more people than Arianne's. Theres also the possibility that any of the involved, many of them being children, would confide in someone. The fact also is that Viserys was a friendless beggar king, the meeting in Tyrosh was not important at all, it invovled letting a lot of people in on the plan, and could've easily go wrong. So why take all of those chances for a meeting that has little value and no take the extra chance of involving someone more trustworthy than Viserys or the Yronwoods, like his wife or the mother of his niece, to help his son in such a vital and deadly enterprice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 2 hours ago, CamiloRP said: The Sealord didn't make the pact, he just witnessed it. Witnesses also sign documents. 3 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Honestly, that's a great observation I hadn't noticed before. I do think he's talking about Oberyn tho, and it's likely author error. But only by the way it's phrased. He doesn't say 'It was signed by three men, two of them dead". He says It's easy to claim writer's error, but the last news that Dany has of Westeros was Robert's death and Ned's fall after she arrived in Qarth. There is no news from Westeros. They don't know about Oberyn's death, they don't know about Tywin's death. They don't know about the Red Wedding, which happened before these two events. 2 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Yes, this is a dumb mistake. I mistook Mellario's hometown (Norvos) with Lady Nym's mother's hometown (Volantis) another woman who could've set them up with a ship and crew. Why would Doran take a chance with Nym's mother? For starters, we don't know if Lady Nym's mother is still alive. Secondly, her mother is from the Old Blood. The Old Blood of Volantis are not Dany's friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: Witnesses also sign documents. Yes. But Barristan doesn't say 'signed' he says 'made'. The Sealord didn't make the pact, Oberyn and Derry did. And even if you claimed that a witness could be included amongst the 'makers' of a pact, Barristan's language points to him talking about Oberyn, he didn't say 'Made by three men, two of them dead.' or 'Made by two dead men and a sex machine.' He said 'Made by two dead men.' That's only true if he's talking about Oberyn and Derry. Quote It's easy to claim writer's error, but the last news that Dany has of Westeros was Robert's death and Ned's fall after she arrived in Qarth. There is no news from Westeros. They don't know about Oberyn's death, they don't know about Tywin's death. They don't know about the Red Wedding, which happened before these two events. You are not contradicting me here. That's what 'author error' means. Quote Why would Doran take a chance with Nym's mother? For starters, we don't know if Lady Nym's mother is still alive. Secondly, her mother is from the Old Blood. The Old Blood of Volantis are not Dany's friends. Neither are the Braavosi. And likely not the Tyroshi. She trusts in Oberyn enough to let him raise her daughter. In al likelihood she's at least okay with Doran via what she's heard of him from Oberyn, or she thinks he's a weakling from what she heard of him from Nym. But he has her daughter, a likely hostage, and her daughter loves Dorne, so why wouldn't she help? Why wouldn't the Archon of Tyrosh help? Why wouldn't the Sealord of Braavos help? Why wouldn't Mellario help? Why wouldn't Sarella's mother help with her ship? Why wouldn't Doran provide Quent with a ship and a trustworthy captain, and even if the number of people in the know is a risk, which wasn't when he decided to involve the Archon of Tyrosh for a useless reason, he could've chosen to provide Quent with a ship captain instead of one of the Yronwood men. To excuse all of this you turn to maybes. Well, maybe the Sealord is dead, maybe the Archon is too, maybe Lady Nym's mother is also dead, or she doesn't like Doran. Maybe Mellario has gone insane, and wants to hurt her own son. Maybe Sarella's mother also died and or hates Doran. Those are too many maybes. And there's still the explanation of why Quent was accompanied only by men loyal to a house that, by all Westerosi standards as well as recent and ancient history should want to destroy house Martell. Why was he accompanied to a mission which's goal is to marry Dany by men who sere someone who wants Quent to marry Gwyeneth? Why wasn't he given the true number on Dorne's military strenght? After all 'A princess ought to know the truth'. Why did Drink slowed Quent down so much? Why wasn't he equipped with fine clothing? Why wasn't he trained on dragons, the same way he was trained in Volantis? Dragons are more important to the mission than Volantene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 On 12/12/2020 at 3:53 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said: I think Doran thought that Dany would jump at the chance to return to Westeros to take her vengeance on the Lannisters (and give him his vengeance). But she decided to stay and Meereen and rule. Dany is that piece on the board who refused to make the move Doran had planned for her. Then Quentyn decided he wanted to steal and dragon. I don't think Doran ever imagined that his son would do something as dumb as that. Agree with this! Doran playing his own kids to the death defeats the purpose of the entire goal for him. You don't avenge a family member by killing your own family members. This is what a "certain alternate universe" thought was logical (and we know it was anything but). I think Doran made several cascading errors. 1. He thought that Dany knew her Westerosi history. Historically, to win Dorne, a Targaryen has to put them on equal footing. Dany is completely ignorant of this. 2. that she would prioritize Westeros over Essos, so that assuming she knew this history, then she couldn't refuse. That's why Quentyn mentioning the first (or was it second now?) Daenerys, because the Targaryens wanted to keep the realm together and she was willing to sacrifice something for it. The hints were that if Dany wanted the 7k, she should look to the 1st Daenerys as a model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 Plausible deniability. Ultimately everything could be blamed on the Yronwoods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 On 12/13/2020 at 1:11 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said: If his plans are to kill off his two oldest kids, he's doing a good job of it. Maybe Trystane is just his favourite child? I don't think you are that far off actually. Not that he wants them dead per se, but rather hedging his bets with theirs deaths being an acceptable outcome. The reason is that they are both compromised. Arianne is more loyal to her dead uncle and her cousins than to him and Quentin is loyal to his archrival in Dorne, Yronwood. If you pay close attention, there is nothing that ties to Doran himself. They went there with Yronwood's maester, Yronwood's son with a pact that, as pointed out, involved a dead man made by two other dead men. And Doran could plausibly claim that he had had no contact with his son in years. So, if it succeeded he would have had an ally with dragons and a son whose path would have led him away from Dorne. If it failed he could have blamed it all on those traitorous Yronwoods who have a history of supporting foreign pretenders. I don't think he counted on Quentin doing something as bone headed as trying to steal the dragons and making an enemy out of Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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