Can "Grand" Theories (Heresy, etc.) Be Defined as Simple Propositions?

[Mister Smikes]

My problem with "Heresy", "Southron Ambitions" and other theories labelled as "Grand" or "Great" (the Great Northern Conspiracy, the Grand Faceless Man Conspiracy, etc. etc.) is that I don't know what they are about because they are too amorphous.

The challenge then, to anyone who supports such a theory, is to reduce the theory to a single simple (single-sentence) proposition, that might have some chance of ultimately be proven true or false.  Or, if you prefer, reduce it to multiple propositions that might (individually) be proven true or false.

Because as I see it, if a theory is not falsifiable, it is not really a theory.

[LynnS]

The Heretics thread isn't a grand theory.  It's a salon with an ongoing conversation covering a wide range of ideas.  Occasionally some one will present a 'theory' for discussion.  Most of what we discuss isn't theory but ideas and different ways of interpreting the material.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The Heretics thread isn't a grand theory.  It's a salon with an ongoing conversation covering a wide range of ideas.  Occasionally some one will present a 'theory' for discussion.  Most of what we discuss isn't theory but ideas and different ways of interpreting the material.

Can you think of any specific "heretical" ideas that are discussed there?  Ones that are specific enough that they might ultimately be proven true or false?

[Nathan Stark]

3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

My problem with "Heresy", "Southron Ambitions" and other theories labelled as "Grand" or "Great" (the Great Northern Conspiracy, the Grand Faceless Man Conspiracy, etc. etc.) is that I don't know what they are about because they are too amorphous.

The challenge then, to anyone who supports such a theory, is to reduce the theory to a single simple (single-sentence) proposition, that might have some chance of ultimately be proven true or false.  Or, if you prefer, reduce it to multiple propositions that might (individually) be proven true or false.

Because as I see it, if a theory is not falsifiable, it is not really a theory.

I will focus on the theories that I know well, "Southron Ambitions," and "the Great Northern Conspiracy."

Southron Ambitions is the theory that Rickard Stark betrothed Lyanna and Brandon to Southron Houses and fostered Ned at the Eyrie in order to build alliances in the South.

The Great Northern Conspiracy proposes a web of alliances in the North that are preparing to rebel against House Bolton.

[Mister Smikes]

7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I will focus on the theories that I know well, "Southron Ambitions," and "the Great Northern Conspiracy."

Southron Ambitions is the theory that Rickard Stark betrothed Lyanna and Brandon to Southron Houses and fostered Ned at the Eyrie in order to build alliances in the South.

So, the theory is that these things were not done purely for love?  Yeah, I'd say that theory's kinda safe.  Stark, Arryn, Baratheon and Tully were all allies during Robert's Rebellion.

Quote

The Great Northern Conspiracy proposes a web of alliances in the North that are preparing to rebel against House Bolton.

Yeah.  Nobody likes the Boltons.  Can you imagine a scenario where such a theory could be proven false?

[Nathan Stark]

7 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

So, the theory is that these things were not done purely for love?  Yeah, I'd say that theory's kinda safe.  Stark, Arryn, Baratheon and Tully were all allies during Robert's Rebellion.

Yeah.  Nobody likes the Boltons.  Can you imagine a scenario where such a theory could be proven false?

Hey, you asked folks to define them as "simple propositions," and that is what I came up with. With Southron Ambitions, the interesting possibilies all have to do with intent: why was Rickard trying to move the North beyond it's historical isolationism? Was he trying to help overthrow Aerys? Did he want independence from the Iron Throne? Did he just want to strengthen his House? Those can be argued for or against.

As for the Northern Conspiracy, not everybody hates the Boltons. House Dustin and House Rhyswell are in Roose's corner, and the Frey's have an army there in the North too. But the bigger issues this proposal seeks to address are the matters of Robb's will, and whether or not other Northern factions are aware of Robb's wishes and are scoping Jon out as a potential replacement.

[Mister Smikes]

27 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Hey, you asked folks to define them as "simple propositions,"  and that is what I came up with.

Thanks for your answers.  But I did also ask for some level of verifiability and falsifiability. 

Quote

With Southron Ambitions, the interesting possibilies all have to do with intent: why was Rickard trying to move the North beyond it's historical isolationism? Was he trying to help overthrow Aerys? Did he want independence from the Iron Throne? Did he just want to strengthen his House? Those can be argued for or against.

Can any of these interesting possibilities be broken down to single-sentence propositions that have some chance of being proven true or false in coming books? 

I can certainly imagine more evidence that Ri8ckard and his allies were conspiring against Aerys (I think we have some already).

Quote

As for the Northern Conspiracy, not everybody hates the Boltons. House Dustin and House Rhyswell are in Roose's corner, and the Frey's have an army there in the North too. But the bigger issues this proposal seeks to address are the matters of Robb's will, and whether or not other Northern factions are aware of Robb's wishes and are scoping Jon out as a potential replacement.

Can any of these interesting speculations (for instance, concerning Rob's will) be broken down to single-sentence propositions that have some chance of being proven true or false in coming books?

[Jaenara Belarys]

I've read about the Grand Faceless Men conspiracy. It basically states that on Septon Barth's Dragon Egg Visit to Braavos, the FM killed Ser Gyles Morrigen, killed Rego Draz in order to kill Princess Daenerys, posed a Myrish guy to kill Prince Aemon, killed Baelon, and that one of the KG knights at the Ashford Tourney trial of seven killed Prince Baelor. I consider it a crackpot, theory, but not as crackpot as the Quentyn survived and the Tattered Prince died theory.

[Mister Smikes]

33 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I've read about the Grand Faceless Men conspiracy. It basically states that on Septon Barth's Dragon Egg Visit to Braavos, the FM killed Ser Gyles Morrigen, killed Rego Draz in order to kill Princess Daenerys, posed a Myrish guy to kill Prince Aemon, killed Baelon, and that one of the KG knights at the Ashford Tourney trial of seven killed Prince Baelor.

That's some mouthful.  But thanks.

33 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I consider it a crackpot, theory, but not as crackpot as the Quentyn survived and the Tattered Prince died theory.

Well, in the latter case, we would expect to know something in TWOW one way or another.

[Mourning Star]

Two of my favorites, one for fire and one for ice... although I suppose it's up to you if you consider them "Grand" enough.

Lemongate - Dany is not Daenerys Targaryen, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen. Her memories of the House with the Red Door with a lemon tree outside the window, were not from Braavos. (This could be taken further, as the obvious question then is who is she? I would hazard to guess that she is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna)

A crow is not a raven - The Three Eyed Crow from Bran's falling dream was not Bloodraven. Crows are not ravens, and the two birds do not get along. Bloodraven was the brooding weirwood in Bran's dreams which sometimes did, and sometimes did not, appear in the same dreams as the crow. (This could be taken further, as the obvious question then is who is the three eyed crow? I would predict that it was Old Nan all along)

[Mister Smikes]

9 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Two of my favorites, one for fire and one for ice... although I suppose it's up to you if you consider them "Grand" enough.

Lemongate - Dany is not Daenerys Targaryen, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen. Her memories of the House with the Red Door with a lemon tree outside the window, were not from Braavos. (This could be taken further, as the obvious question then is who is she? I would hazard to guess that she is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna)

A crow is not a raven - The Three Eyed Crow from Bran's falling dream was not Bloodraven. Crows are not ravens, and the two birds do not get along. Bloodraven was the brooding weirwood in Bran's dreams which sometimes did, and sometimes did not, appear in the same dreams as the crow. (This could be taken further, as the obvious question then is who is the three eyed crow? I would predict that it was Old Nan all along)

I find both theories very interesting.  "Lemongate" can be considered "Grand" in the sense that it is a word that encompasses any number of associated ideas.   But I would guess that it's simplest form is that "The House with the Red Door was not in Braavos". 

 

[Megorova]

20 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Quote

With Southron Ambitions, the interesting possibilies all have to do with intent: why was Rickard trying to move the North beyond it's historical isolationism? Was he trying to help overthrow Aerys? Did he want independence from the Iron Throne? Did he just want to strengthen his House? Those can be argued for or against.

Can any of these interesting possibilities be broken down to single-sentence propositions that have some chance of being proven true or false in coming books? 

I can certainly imagine more evidence that Ri8ckard and his allies were conspiring against Aerys (I think we have some already).

I'm not so sure that the sourse of Rickard's southron ambitions was something anti-Targaryen, I think his motivations were the opposite of that.

I think that Rickard's grandmother, Melantha Blackwood, was older sister of Betha Blackwood, wife of Aegon V Targaryen, and a daughter of Mya Rivers (Aegon the Unworthy's daughter and Lord Bloodraven's sister). Mya Rivers was great-grandmother of Rickard, Aerys and Rhaella, and thus Rickard was a second cousin to the royal couple.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were third cousins. Lyanna and Robert Baratheon also were third cousins. If I didn't miscalculated, then Brandon (and Ned) and Catelyn were fourth cousins.

Furthermore, not only Rickard was partially Targayen by blood, Aerys and Rhaella were partially Starks by blood - Cregan Stark was great-great-great grandfather to all three of them - Rickard, Aerys and Rhaella.

Under spoiler there are my ideas/speculations about various topics connected to Stark&Targaryen-family. All those speculations will be confirmed or disproved when GRRM will release second Volume of Fire&Blood. The evidence will be on their family trees.

Spoiler

When maesters said to Rhaegar that Elia can't have more children, he searched for a dragonseed-woman that will become the mother of his third child (because according to the prophecy in which Rhaegar believed - the dragon has three heads). Rhaegar and his companions went to Riverlands - to Harrenhal, Riverrun and Raventree Hall. His friend, Oswell Whent, shared with Rhaegar the true history of his House's founding, that the first Lord Whent of Harrenhal (grandfather of Shella Whent) was a son of the Bastard of Harrenhal, also known as Manfryd o' the Black Hood or Manfred Lothston (King Daeron II legitimized him as a Lothston as a reward for Manfred betraying Daemon Blackfyre in the span of the First Blackfyre Rebellion).

This Manfred, the father of House Whent's founder, was a secret son of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon the Unworthy. The real reason why Aegon sent Jeyne away from his court is because she got pregnant from him, and because people already suspected that Jeyne was his own daughter (which is the truth), thus he had to hide what he did. If the people of the 7K rebelled when Aenys I's children, Rhaena and Aegon, got married, what would have been their reaction to what Aegon IV did? -> Rebellion. Thus he lied that the reason why he sent Jeyne away from court is because supposedly he infected her with pox. Which is a lie, because both of them were immune to that disease. All dragonseeds are immune to human diseases. Little Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, was poisoned by the Faceless Man, the poison was in the bread that the Princess ate at the New Year's dinner. Daeron II and his grandsons died during the Great Spring Sickness, though, read carefully how GRRM phrased the reason of their death both in the World Book and in The Sworn Sword novel - they died in that period of time but not from the disease. And Jeyne Lothston died while giving birth to Aegon's child. Then her fake father, Lucas Lothston, Aegon's Pander, took her child, brought him to Harrenhal and did the same thing as Ned did for Lyanna's son - he said that this child is his bastard (while actually the children, in both cases, were secret Targaryens). Years later Manfred got legitimized by King Daeron for betraying Blackfyres, though he didn't got Harrenhal, instead Danelle Lothston got it. Then the Bastard went to Braavos, to meet there with the other unacknowledged children of Aegon IV - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion Otheryses, whose mother was a granddaughter of the Sealord of Braavos. The three Otheryses were born in 161-170 and the Bastard was born in 178-180, so he was closer in age to his nephews and nieces than to his half-siblings. While he was in Braavos, he hooked up with one of Otherys-girls from the second generation (his niece) and got her pregnant, and then left her. Petyr Baelish' great-grandfather (and his twin-sister), who was a sellsword from Braavos, was a son of the Bastard of Harrenhal and an Otherys-girl. Then the Bastard returned to Westeros and married there. Either his wife's family-name was a Whent and he took her lastname after the wedding (same as Joffrey Lidden became Joffrey Lannister after marrying with a Lannister-girl), or he just created a new family-name for his House, same as Daemon I Blackfyre and Orys Baratheon. Then the Bastard and his Whent-son framed Danelle Lothston, that she's supposedly a witch and that she used giant bats to kill children that lived at Harrenhal. While actually those bats were skinchanged by the Bastard. The inheritance of a skinchanging-genes works similar to the inheritance of a red hair genes - for a child to be a red-head (or a skinchanger) 1. both parents are supposed to be carriers of recessive genes (even though both of them are not red-haired themselves, their children will be), or 2. both parents could be red-haired, or 3. one of the parents is a red-head and the other is a carrier of recessive genes - in all three cases their children (or some of their children) will be red-haired (/skinchangers).   

So, back to House Whent - Oswell revealed to Rhaegar that Whents are secret dragonseeds, and because Rhaegar needed a dragonseed-girl to get that third child, they went to Harrenhal to visit Wynafrei Whent, Oswell's niece. But by the time they had arrived there, she already got married with Danwell Frey, who was one of her champions at the Harrenhal's tournament in the previous year (he was one of those three knights that were defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree (Lyanna Stark), and Wynafrei was the original Queen of Love and Beauty at that tournament, which was hosted by her parents - Shella and Walter). Then they went to Riverrun, because at that castle lived two daughters of Minisa Whent (Oswell's cousin) - Catelyn and Lysa Tully. Catelyn got dismissed as a bride-candidate, because she loved her fiance, and thus would have refused Rhaegar's offer to become his second wife. And Lysa got dismissed because she recently had an abortion and thus in the future could have had problems with fertility and childbirth, and Rhaegar needed a healthy breeder, not another failure like Elia. Thus after Riverrun they went to Raventree Hall. Either they originally planned to go to all three castles, or RH was a later addition. Could be that Rhaegar intended to marry with one of Whent-girls, and only when that plan failed, he remembered about his great-grandmother, Betha Blackwood, who died during Summerhal's burning on the same day when Rhaegar was born. Thus, when they went thru family archives of House Blackwood, they found out that Betha's older sister, Melantha, married with a Stark. Afterwards they either went to The North, or Rhaegar just wrote a letter to maester Aemon (who was Melantha's brother-in-law - her sister (Betha) was married with his brother (Egg)), and that's how Rhaegar found out that Lyanna Stark is 1/32 dragonseed. That may seem like not much, though Brown Ben Plumm is also 1/32 dragonseed, and that amount of dragon-genes is enough for Dany's dragons to recognize him as their kin.

Not to mention that Rhaegar liked Lyanna. He crowned her as the Queen of Love and Beauty because he knew that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Could be that if she didn't pulled out of the tournament, maybe she would have won. She participated in that tournament to avenge her friend, Howland Reed. And Rhaegar knew this because he noticed Lyanna - when he was singing a sad song, she was one of those girl that cried, and when Benjen mocked her because of those tears, she poured her wine on his head. Because of this action Rhaegar noticed her, and for the rest of that evening he was watching her, and thus saw when Howland Reed poined to her those three squires that attacked him. Two days later all three knights, to whom those squires served, were defeated by the mystery knight. That's how Rhaegar realised that that mystery knight was Lyanna. That's why he gave the crown to her, as a gesture of acknowledging her prowess and courage.

Everything about what I wrote here, will be proven or disproven, when GRRM will publish second part of Fire & Blood. There will be a complete family tree of Starks and Targaryens, and other characters who are bloodrelated to them, such as Brown Ben Plumm, Petyr Baelish (he and Catelyn are third cousins), Robert Arryn (who is actually Petyr's son (it will be proven if he is a skinchanger, because both Petyr and Lysa are recessive carriers of skinchanging-genes, same as Catelyn&Ned, Rhaegar&Lyanna, Rhaegar&Elia (little Rhaenys possibly was a skinchanger, her kitten is the same cat that Arya caught in AGOT under the Red Keep), Dany&Drogo (Rhaego is alive, and he is possibly a skinchanger, because Drogo is bloodrelated to Targaryens. One of Brown Ben Plumm's ancestors was a Dothraki, that Dothraki was a descendant of Viserys Plumm, whose real father was Aegon the Unworhty, and that Dothraki is also Drogo's ancestor, that why Rhaego's hair is Targaryen-brand - silver-gold, because his father was a carrier of recessive genes, for blond hair, purple eyes, and skinchanging ability), Jeyne Lothston&Aegon IV, the Bastard of Harrenhal & Otherys-girl (there are skinchangers amongst characters in Braavos, they are descendants of Otheryses and the Bastard of Harrenhal. Arya's kindly man, who is the current Sealord of Braavos and the leader of the Faceless Men, is a cat-skinchanger (the cats are his spies. Larra Rogare, Aegon IV' mother, was a cat-skinchanger, and thus all her descendants are either skinchangers (like Bran, Arya, Jon, Shiera Seastar) or a recessive carriers (like Dany, Ned, Catelyn, Rhaegar)). In the chapter The Blind Girl Arya skinchanged into a cat, that cat was a "secondhand" vessel, that's why it was easy for Arya to possess it, even though she's a warg/a dog-person and thus cats are not her "cup of tea". Bloodraven explained to Bran in ADWD, Bran III, how this works - previously used skins are easier to re-possess.)).

There's a gap in the family tree of Starks - in Fire&Blood Volume 1 it ends on Cregan Stark's four daughters. In my opinion his daughter, Alys, married with a Karstark and their daughter, Alys Karstark, married with her half-uncle - Brandon Stark. Cregan's other daughter - Sarra, married with a Royce and their daughter, Lorra Royce, married with Beron Stark (who was her first cousin). The third daughter - Raya, married with a Flint, and their granddaughter, Arya Flint, married with Rodrik Stark (who was her second cousin). And the fourth daughter - Mariah, married with a Blackwood, and their daughter was Melissa Blackwood.

Thus, Melissa Blackwood, mistress of Aegon the Unworhty and the mother of his three children (Mya and Gwenis Rivers and Lord Bloodraven), was Cregan Stark's granddaughter. And she was the reason why Cregan fought in a duel against Aemon the Dragonknight, who was Aegon's sworn shield. So when Cregan wanted Aegon to break up with Melissa, he had to fight in a trial by combat against Aegon's sworn shield, because Kings themselves don't fight in a challenges like that.

All that will be proven (or disproven) by the family trees (Stark and Targaryen).

[Megorova]

Concerning "simple propositions", my ideas could be phrased like this (those from the previous post and a few others, also mine):

• Melissa Blackwood is Cregan Stark's granddaughter.
• Melantha and Betha Blackwood were sisters, and Melissa Blackwood's granddaughters.
• The Bastard of Harrenhal is a son of Jeyne Lothson and Aegon IV Targaryen.
• Robert Arryn's real father is Petyr Baelish.
• Petyr Baelish is a third cousin to Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure Tully.
• Rhaego is alive.
• Rhaego will become the second dragonrider, his dragon will be Rhaegal.
• The Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar.
• Shiera Seastar is a cat-skinchanger (she possessed a shadow-cat and attacked Mance Rayder). She was also a wildling healer that treated his wounds afterwards.
• Shadowbinder Quaithe and Shiera Seastar is the same person.
• Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys is the same person.
• Aegon III Targaryen died in 135 AC not in 157, so his five children were actually fathered by an imposter (or rather by two imposters).
• Azor Ahai had five wives and forty-four sons (try to guess who they are. I think I know )
• The founder of the Great Empire of the Dawn was an alien, from Earth (that's why his alias was God-on-Earth, even though the planet on which are happening events of ASOIAF is called Planetos).
• Duncan the Tall is a bastard of Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen. And his real name is not Duncan.
• Old Nan's real name is Alysanne Stark (daughter of Beron Stark and Lorra Royce).
• Tattered Prince is a son of Rodrik Stark and Arya Flint, possibly his real name is Duncan Stark.
• Duncan the Tall had children with three women. Amongst current characters in ASOIAF there are 10 people who are Dunk's descendants.
• Melisandre is half-Targaryen, furthermore - legitimate, not a bastard.
• fAegon's parents are Barristan Selmy and Jeyne Swann (septa Lemore's real name).
• Dawn of Daynes and Azor Ahai's Lightbringer is the same sword.
• Jyanna Reed and Ashara Dayne is the same person.
• Illyrio's wife, Sera, was killed by Faceless Men.
• This is the same person - Syrio Forel, Jaqen H'ghar, whoever killed Balon Greyjoy, Alchemist, fPate. He will become the next Sealord of Braavos, if his mission at the 7K will be successful.

[Jaenara Belarys]

20 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's some mouthful.  But thanks.

 

Yep.

21 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, in the latter case, we would expect to know something in TWOW one way or another.

No, we already know something. Quentyn Martell is dead and done. End of story. He tried to dance with dragons and got burnt for being an idiot.

 

[Mister Smikes]

2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

No, we already know something. Quentyn Martell is dead and done. End of story. He tried to dance with dragons and got burnt for being an idiot.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  All I am saying is that the theory that "Quentyn 'Frog' Martell is still alive at the end of ADWD", is a simple falsifiable proposition, in the sense that if there are no further revelations in TWOW, suggesting that he is still alive, the theory will have been proven false.  I don't really care to argue about whether the theory has already been falsified.

 

[Mister Smikes]

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Duncan the Tall had children with three women. Amongst current characters in ASOIAF there are 10 people who are Dunk's descendants.

This sounds like a set of separate theories.  Do you have a specific ten in mind?

(I'm guessing it does not include the theory that Bonifer Hasty is a son/grandson of Dunk and in turn is the father of Rhaegar, who in turn is the father of TPTWP and the 3 heads of the dragon, who are all, therefore, descendants of Dunk & Egg)

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

This sounds like a set of separate theories. 

Three mothers = three theories.

I'm currently working on a set of interconnected threads (I'm planning to write 16 in total). I'll gradually post them on this forum in June-July. Each theory/idea will be posted in a separate thread, and will be explained in chronological order, and with quotes from the books on which those ideas are based.

Though I'm not going to write a theory about one of those women, I'll just mention it in one of those threads. This -> Dunk had a child (or children, twins) with Tanselle Too-Tall. Their descendants are House Drinkwater.

The Hedge Knight - "The puppeteer who worked the dragon was good to watch too; a tall drink of water, with the olive skin and black hair of Dorne. She was slim as a lance with no breasts to speak of".

Brienne Tarth and her mother, Pretty Meris, are also Dunk's descendants, though from a different woman. And they were also described as having no breasts, same as Tanselle - Brienne (ACOK, Catelyn II) "Out of armor, her body seemed ungainly, broad of hip and thick of limb, with hunched muscular shoulders but no bosom to speak of.”; Meris (ADWD) “If the talk he had heard was true, beneath that shirt Pretty Meris had only the scars left by the men who’d cut her breasts off.”

Both Dunk and Gerris are tall, and their hair is described as sun-streaked.

Though there's not a lot of information about Drinkwaters, and it seems that their role in the further plot of ASOIAF will be minor, and the other two mothers are more interesting, thus I mostly focused my threads on them and not Tanselle.

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Do you have a specific ten in mind?

Of course. Four out of those 10 are the head of House Drinkwater and his three children - Geris and his twin-sisters.

Though in the beginning there was 12 descendants, but one of them died (prior AGOT's beginning) and one is Undead (died in one of the books).

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

(I'm guessing it does not include the theory that Bonifer Hasty is a son/grandson of Dunk and in turn is the father of Rhaegar, who in turn is the father of TPTWP and the 3 heads of the dragon, who are all, therefore, descendants of Dunk & Egg)

No, my theories are not crackpot tinfoil, instead they are based on information in the books, on clues and patterns written by GRRM. There are clues in the books about all 10 of those characters/ parallels to Dunk.

Visit this forum in June-July, my Grand Theory is going to be titled "Swan Song". In part 1 I'll explain more about those patterns that GRRM is using in his books. Threads connected to Dunk are - part 5, 6, 9 and 16. "Swan Song part 5/16. The real cause of the First Blackfyre Rebellion", etc.

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Brienne Tarth and her mother, Pretty Meris,

Say, what?? Pretty Meris is Brienne's mom? That sounds *cough crackpot *cough.

[Megorova]

11 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Say, what?? Pretty Meris is Brienne's mom? That sounds *cough crackpot *cough.

Yes, yes. She is. And it's not a crackpot. I'll prove it.

It's a crackpot to think that Selwyn Tarth is Dunk's descendant.

[Jaenara Belarys]

As you noted above, Pretty Meris has only scars. Brienne does not have anything. We do not know the cleavage (ick) of Pretty Meris.