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Nathan Stark

Dany's dragons did NOT cause magic to return

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On 5/7/2021 at 2:11 PM, LynnS said:

I think the Hinges of the World as wellsprings of magic might have something to do with it.  The Wall is one of the hinges of the world according to Mel.  She tells Jon he can access it's power if he chooses.  The icey hinge.  The fiery hinge may be the Smoking Sea ringed by volcanos in Valyria.  Moqorro says men are small and there is a danger in delving too deeply into those fires.  The result being the Doom.  Dragons and White Walkers may be connected to these sources.

ohhh shit this is fire

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3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What the death of dragons affected was fire magic.

For example, the death of dragons did not affect the number of greenseers and skinchangers. The amount from them narrowed a long ago, or so it would seem.

We might say the return of dragons expanded the presence of fire magic, and magic in general too, but that one only at a very low extent. However: either the dragons or Daenerys herself are responsible for this part, even if she isn't TPTWP.

Rangers were dissapearing even before them, and the free folk know about them even before. If you mean the Others beginning to return in general, then yes, this might be what triggered the return of the dragons. But then there's also no explanation on why they returned now, unless there's a third party one can call gods or whatever else.

Also seems to be one piece in this cataclystic chain of events. Bloodraven always had the power to do so, and he's not that superior of an entity, altough pretty (and I mean pretty) powerful he is.

Doesn't explain the reappearance of the WW and the rebirth of dragons.

I intend to make a very-very ling post sbout magic (including literally everything), but it's not done yet.  Otherwise, I find it too complicated amd long to just write it down here.

Theres also the maesters and marwins quote about "who do you think killed the dragons last time around, there was no place for them in the world that the maesters are building" So man plays a role in this too. sort of like the lord of the rings where man is mostly the non magical force. A sort of, god idk how to describe it, normalizing force. Like tolkiens story was supposed to take place in the past of OUR world, and man was the force that pushed our world to be as it is and not as magical. In lord of the rings the magic is the final dance and everyone comes back for it and magic resurges for a time, before fading into the west. Theres also that talk that Leaf has about how the Giants are dying and the and Children, and the Lions in the Hills, and the Direwolves will outlast them all, but will fade away too. Its a similar theme with men vs nature/magic. Cause I think magic has been fading since men came to Westros. I have way more thoughts on this than I feel like writing down rn, ssoooo fuck im lazy. The first men and the children fought, and then they made a pact and shared the magic, and then the Andals came and killed the first men and drove them out except in the north, and so on. But in the case of Martin, there is Malice to the normalizing force that men have. God I love these books. Also, the magic that the children have is nature magic, and it is in balance I think. The Ice and Fire magic are abominations. Or rather to far from the natural order. They destroy.  If this doesn't make sense or y'all disagree, sorry, I'll try to write it down better soon. 

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You need to stop making three posts like this. Make it one post. Check the Style Guide. 

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18 hours ago, Orion2 said:

ohhh shit this is fire

Fourteen Flames or fourteen thousand, they are all connected. 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You need to stop making three posts like this. Make it one post. Check the Style Guide. 

Don't let your britches get too big for you.  Otherwise your pants will fall down and everyone will see your underwear. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/7/2021 at 1:18 PM, Nathan Stark said:

So when we think about the role of magic in the ASOIAF universe, I believe that dragons being in the world is an effect of magic, not a cause of it. I think that the truth is a little more complicated, in classic GRRM style. When the last dragons died, it was fire magic that went out of the world, or at least was severely weakened. I think it is notable that all of the examples used to show how the dragons brought magic back are all related to fire magic.

Thoughts?

Early in the series, Dany equates the Doom on Valyria with the death of magic in the west.  Interestingly enough, she associates the Doom of Valyria with the death of magic despite the continued existence of dragons in Westeros after the Doom, yet she also considers the fact that magic still exists in the East with the idea that dragons may still exist there as well.  

Quote

Viserys had told her that the last Targaryen dragons had died no more than a century and a half ago, during the reign of Aegon III, who was called the Dragonbane. That did not seem so long ago to Dany. “Everywhere?” she said, disappointed. “Even in the east?” Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back, but Dany had always heard that the east was different. It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the Jade Sea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night. Why shouldn’t there be dragons too?

I think the answer may be that Westeros was becoming more “rational” due to the influence of the Maesters.  The absence of this “rationality” in the East, and the existence of more mystery might open the possibility of dragons, at least in Dany’s mind.

And it is indeed a Maester who tries to throw cold water on Bran’s yearning to learn magic:

Quote

“I want to learn magic,” Bran told him. “The crow promised that I would fly.”
Maester Luwin sighed. “I can teach you history, healing, herblore. I can teach you the speech of ravens, and how to build a castle, and the way a sailor steers his ship by the stars. I can teach you to measure the days and mark the seasons, and at the Citadel in Oldtown they can teach you a thousand things more. But, Bran, no man can teach you magic.”

In other words, magic seems to exist in those regions furthest away from the influence of the Maesters.  Past the Wall and in the Far East.

In reality, it may be societal pressure that drove magic into hiding.  The Faith and the Maesters apparently worked to rid Westeros of dragons.  There was a religious and social stigma against the Targaryen practice of incest which the Targaryens seemed to be needed to keep their bloodline pure and their bond with their dragons strong.

In the South, Weirwoods, which may have been sentient, were burned down, and COTF who may have actively joined with the sentience of the Weirwoods were driven out.

In the North, there existed a stigma about being a warg.  And even though the Weirwoods weren’t burned down, the practice of blood sacrifices to the Weirwoods became actively discouraged.

Now magic associated with the Valyrians did seem to gain in power after Dany’s dragons were hatched, but the question is did the hatching of Dany’s dragons cause this, or were they able to be hatched because of the same increase in magic that seemed to affect the pyromancers, alchemists, Red Priests, and other practitioners of fire and Valyrian magic?

The one event that may have sparked all of this, was the red comet passing close to the planet’s orbit.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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I heard that Amanda Seyfried said that making people laugh was magic. 

The Great Fools' conspiracy. 

King Patchface 

Hand Moonboy 

 

Oh, and Queen Dany ;)

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26 minutes ago, LynnS said:
20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

You need to stop making three posts like this. Make it one post. Check the Style Guide. 

Don't let your britches get too big for you.  Otherwise your pants will fall down and everyone will see your underwear

Well,... if it is Calvin Klein, I can understand. 

Reminds me of Back to the future 

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21 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Well,... if it is Calvin Klein, I can understand. 

Reminds me of Back to the future 

Is that still a thing?  I always wanted to ask if I could see their clown shoes. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Don't let your britches get too big for you.  Otherwise your pants will fall down and everyone will see your underwear. 

I did that once, but I learned. Why can't he do it too? 

45 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

King Patchface 

Hand Moonboy 

That would be an amusing reign. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Fourteen Flames or fourteen thousand, they are all connected. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Early in the series, Dany equates the Doom on Valyria with the death of magic in the west.  Interestingly enough, she associates the Doom of Valyria with the death of magic despite the continued existence of dragons in Westeros after the Doom, yet she also considers the fact that magic still exists in the East with the idea that dragons may still exist there as well.  

I think the answer may be that Westeros was becoming more “rational” due to the influence of the Maesters.  The absence of this “rationality” in the East, and the existence of more mystery might open the possibility of dragons, at least in Dany’s mind.

And it is indeed a Maester who tries to throw cold water on Bran’s yearning to learn magic:

In other words, magic seems to exist in those regions furthest away from the influence of the Maesters.  Past the Wall and in the Far East.

In reality, it may be societal pressure that drove magic into hiding.  The Faith and the Maesters apparently worked to rid Westeros of dragons.  There was a religious and social stigma against the Targaryen practice of incest which the Targaryens seemed to be needed to keep their bloodline pure and their bond with their dragons strong.

In the South, Weirwoods, which may have been sentient, were burned down, and COTF who may have actively joined with the sentience of the Weirwoods were driven out.

In the North, there existed a stigma about being a warg.  And even though the Weirwoods weren’t burned down, the practice of blood sacrifices to the Weirwoods became actively discouraged.

Now magic associated with the Valyrians did seem to gain in power after Dany’s dragons were hatched, but the question is did the hatching of Dany’s dragons cause this, or were they able to be hatched because of the same increase in magic that seemed to affect the pyromancers, alchemists, Red Priests, and other practitioners of fire and Valyrian magic?

The one event that may have sparked all of this, was the red comet passing close to the planet’s orbit.

@Frey family reunion Yeah I agree about the Maesters, I don't know. So I feel like fire magic and ice magic are both unnatural, and the earth magic that the children have is closest to balance. The maesters are also doing something unnatural by destroying magic, because magic is part of the world and to cut it out completely is wrong. Theres so many types of magic in this world tho..its confusing. Like where tf do the warlocks and Euron fit into all this. idk

@LynnS is...is this a joke. Or am I just stupid

if the faceless men caused the doom..are they the gods??:laugh:

Edited by Orion2

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The emergence of magic is nature’s response to the movement of the Others and the arrival of winter.  Nature is giving Daenerys the weapons and the tools she will need to save enough of the living so that life can begin again after the ice recedes.  One of those tools is magic.  

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22 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

is...is this a joke. Or am I just stupid

You are not stupid and Ii's not intended as a joke.  I'm talking about the Smoking Sea and the volcanos that surround it (the fourteen flames).  Sounds like it's a super volcano.  I'm suggesting that it is one of the Hinges of the World, the fiery hinge and a source of ambient fire magic deep beneath the ground that seems to be connected to ambient fire magic in general.   When it erupted Moqorro said it affected every hill within 500 miles.  The earth cracked open.  He says this is the god's own wrath.  

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

You are not stupid and Ii's not intended as a joke.  I'm talking about the Smoking Sea and the volcanos that surround it (the fourteen flames).  Sounds like it's a super volcano.  I'm suggesting that it is one of the Hinges of the World, the fiery hinge and a source of ambient fire magic deep beneath the ground that seems to be connected to ambient fire magic in general.   When it erupted Moqorro said it affected every hill within 500 miles.  The earth cracked open.  He says this is the god's own wrath.  

yeah I agree. I think the reason for the doom was that the valyrians were over using that hinge. its odd that Valyria looks so much like Greece. I can't really find a reason other than that they are sorta the high fallen civilization that Rome and Greece were to the Middle Ages. I don't know that much about it, but Valyria seems to be closer to Rome than Greece, what with all the slaves. But there is aspects of Rome in Old Ghis too. Idk

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The one event that may have sparked all of this, was the red comet passing close to the planet’s orbit.

If the comet has the affect of increasing fire magic; and since they have a periodic orbit; then it's possible that the WW's or the COTF know that the comet is about to appear.  My guess is the COTF would know even though they don't have a written record; they have history in the weirwoods.  If they know in advance of the comets appearance, perhaps they started tooling up before it's arrival.

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7 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

yeah I agree. I think the reason for the doom was that the valyrians were over using that hinge. its odd that Valyria looks so much like Greece. I can't really find a reason other than that they are sorta the high fallen civilization that Rome and Greece were to the Middle Ages. I don't know that much about it, but Valyria seems to be closer to Rome than Greece, what with all the slaves. But there is aspects of Rome in Old Ghis too. Idk

The Freehold is essentially Rome with dragons. Lucky Valyrians. 

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5 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The Freehold is essentially Rome with dragons. Lucky Valyrians. 

yeah:laugh:. I'm tryna figure out if theres a connection between the Rome similarities and the doom

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Just now, Orion2 said:

yeah:laugh:. I'm tryna figure out if theres a connection between the Rome similarities and the doom

I want a freaking dragon! Those lucky Valyrians. 

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15 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I want a freaking dragon! Those lucky Valyrians. 

me too. maybe a dire wolf or a mammoth tho. those badboys r pretty cool to

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1 minute ago, Orion2 said:

me too. maybe a dire wolf or a mammoth tho. those badboys r pretty cool to

"The dragon eats horse and sheep alike.". Dragons are far better. 

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