Ser Gallawho of What?

[Mourning Star]

Ser Gallawho of What?

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"Why would I lie?" she asked him. "Every place has its local heroes. Where I come from, the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight."

"Ser Gallawho of What?" He snorted. "Never heard o' him. Why was he so bloody perfect?"

"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

Crabb thought that was hilarious. "The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like. What's the point o' having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?"

"Honor," she said. "The point is honor."

That only made him laugh the louder. "Ser Clarence Crabb would have wiped his hairy arse with your Perfect Knight, m'lady. If they'd ever have met, there'd be one more bloody head sitting on the shelf at the Whispers, you ask me. 'I should have used the magic sword,' it'd be saying to all the other heads. 'I should have used the bloody sword.'"

Brienne could not help but smile. "Perhaps," she allowed, "but Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe eight feet tall mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say."

Nimble Dick was unimpressed. "Crackbones fought a dragon too, but he didn't need no magic sword. He just tied its neck in a knot, so every time it breathed fire it roasted its own arse."

"And what did Crackbones do when Aegon and his sisters came?" Brienne asked him.

"He was dead. M'lady must know that." 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight

It is hard not to immediately think of Sir Galahad, the most perfect of all knights in Arthurian myth.

A relatively late addition to the Arthurian tradition, Galahad was said to be the illegitimate child of Lancelot and Elaine (who was disguised as Guinevere at the time of conception). His birth was prophesized, he was the most perfect and pure knight of the round table, a bastard, sat in the siege perilous, had a magic sword (or two, depending on the tale, including the Sword of David who slew the giant Goliath), and is the one destined to find the holy grail. He also banishes daemons, heals the sick, and rides a magic boat, the Ship of Solomon, that supposedly came all the way from Jerusalem in the east.

More on the "-who" in a moment, but I want to address the “what” in “Ser Gallawho of what”. It begs the question, why didn’t Crabb say “where”?

Morne is a place, once the seat of petty kings on the eastern shore of Tarth, which, according to Maester Hubert in The World of Ice and Fire, is now ruins that appear to be of Andal origin and not First Men.

Tarth is now ruled by Selwyn Tarth, the Evenstar (evening star?). House Tarth is said to be of Andal descent, and Tarth was the first part of the Stormlands to fall to the Andal invaders.

However, the title of Evenstar appears to predate House Tarth.

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The Sapphire Isle, as some call it, is ruled by House Tarth of Evenfall Hall—an old family of Andal descent that boasts of ties to the Durrandons, the Baratheons, and more recently to House Targaryen. Once kings in their own right, the Lords of Tarth still style themselves "the Evenstar," a title that they claim goes back unto the dawn of days.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: The Men of the Stormlands

While it’s easy to focus on the ties to House Targaryen here, a careful reader might notice that the Lords of Tarth claim the title “the Evenstar” goes back to the “dawn of days”, but it didn’t necessarily always belong to a member of House Tarth.

Tarth became part of the Stormlands when Durran, “the fair”, Durrandon married the daughter of Edwyn Evenstar, who presumably ruled Tarth, at least in part, before the arrival of the Andals and the founding of House Tarth. Brienne’s brother, who drowned when he was eight, was named Galladon. Evenstar Hall, the current seat of House Tarth is on the western coast of Tarth, Morne was on the east coast.

The planet Venus, known as the Wandering Star because of its movement across the sky, is the brightest light in the sky besides the sun and moon (the arms of house Tarth). It travels from the east in the morning where it was known as the Morning Star, Phosphoros, to the west where it was known as the Evening Star, Hesperus.

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So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

The seven wanderers are presumably the "planets" (the word planet is derived from the Greek, planetai, meaning wanderers or wandering stars), of which five are what we would call planets that can been seen from earth with the naked eye, which when added to the sun and moon make up the seven celestial bodies which can be seen to move in the sky.

It would appear that the red wanderer (likely analogous to our Mars, which appears red) is sacred to the Smith. One might assume that each of the seven has one of the wandering celestial bodies sacred to them.

The “Houses of Heaven” are presumably equivalent to our houses of astrology, the zodiac. The "rulers" of each house are actually each one of the seven wanderers.

I think it’s noteworthy that the Maesters and Freefolk both share the "Moonmaid" and the “Sword of the Morning”.

We have another house besides Tarth, on the west of Westeros instead of the east, associated with a magic sword, which goes back to the dawn of days, and is connected to morning and stars… House Dayne of Starfall and their Sword of the Morning.

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"My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"

"He was a great knight," Ser Arys Oakheart put in.

"He had a great sword," Darkstar said.

"And a great heart."

A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker

So when Crab says, “Ser Gallawho of what?”, I think the answer is Galla- “dawn” of “the morning”.

“He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair.”

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The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Ser Arthur did use the bloody magic sword when he slew the Smiling Knight.

I would suggest that Ser Galladon of Morne was the original Sword of the Morning, and that his blade, “Just Maid” was Dawn, having just been made.

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The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star.

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

I would also go a step further, and suggest that the tale of the bloody magic sword, just made from the heart of a fallen star, was told to us in the tale of Azor Ahai and the forging of Lightbringer. Lucifer, meaning Lightbringer, was also a name for Venus as the morning star, and this fits if Venus is the wanderer sacred to the Maiden.

“The Maid herself lost her heart to him”

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“Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

"Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns."

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

The similarity of the names Sallador and Galladon is not lost on me, nor the fact that the Saan family is apparently Valyrian (Salador’s ship is the proud Valyrian, and Samarro Saan of the Band of Nine was “The Last Valyrian”), meanwhile the Daynes have Valyrian coloring, as perhaps do the Hightowers.

More than this, I would suggest that Azor Ahai (Galladon of Morne), was also The Last Hero, and that Galla-don, Durran-don, Bran-don, and Dawn are all connected.

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"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

I doubt that The Last Hero’s sword was Valyrian Steel as Jon and Sam assume. It’s not even clear that Valyria had been founded at that point, although it is worth noting that the Daynes have remarkably Valyrian like features while both the Stark and Baratheon intermingling with Valyrians result in dark features.

Dawn would seem to fit the bill perfectly for a magic sword, besides that it isn’t currently red or on fire.

The tales of Azor Ahai slaying a beast, The Last Hero slaying Others, and Galladon using the sword three times against non human opponents (one of which was a dragon) also all seems to fit. (If I had to guess, the other two creatures were the Others and a Giant.)

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"I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

We see Beric able to light his sword on fire using his own blood, but it destroys the blade. I wonder very much what a similar trick would do to Dawn, and suspect it would burn red and fiery hot but not destroy the blade. Resulting in a burning blade and not a burnt one. Hopefully one day we will one day find out.

I also wonder if there isn’t a message in the symbol of the Warrior’s Sons of the Faith Militant, not to be confused with the more common Stars. They bear a rainbow sword, and I wonder if just like red is one color that sunlight can be split into using a prism, perhaps the “red sword of heroes” isn’t just one aspect of the white sword, as the warrior or smith are just single aspects of a one godhead.

Even if I’m totally off base about these connections between legends, isn’t it a bit head scratching that House Dayne has had this incredible legendary sword going back to a time supposedly long before the Andals even brought iron working to Westeros, The Sunset Kingdoms?

The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like.

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"A fool and a knight?" said Jonquil. "I have never heard of such a thing."

"Sweet lady," said Florian, "all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned."

It was a good show, sad and sweet both, with a sprightly swordfight at the end, and a nicely painted giant.

The Hedge Knight

Florian the Fool is a legend from the Age of Heroes about a knight who had an iron suit of motley and a magic sword who saw his love Jonquil in a pool, located in Maidenpool.

This is a fantastic example of how the legends of Westeros feature knights riding around long before the arrival of the Andals, and both ironworking itself and knightly vows supposedly arrived with the Andals.

While it’s certainly reasonable to doubt these local hero stories, I do not think one should dismiss these discrepancies out of hand. Especially, as I will try to show below, when there appears to be other corroborating evidence pointing to a different explanation.

I think it’s entirely possible that many of these old tales are the same story told different ways.

“Every place has its local heroes.”

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How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

And it seems that for many of these local heroes, the tales are about one man, The Last Hero, or perhaps some of his twelve companions also. This would explain the title of “the last hero”, at the end of the age of heroes, who succeeded in finding the Singers of the Earth after losing his companions, horse, dog, and having his sword break, in the hopes that their magic could help win back what the armies of men had lost.

These tales from the east come from places half a world away from Westeros, but then again, The Long Night was a worldwide event, was said to last a generation, and The Last Hero clearly had a long journey.

I believe all this begs the question; Do we see evidence of non First Men in Westeros back at the Dawn of Days? And, I think the answer is yes. To try and explain this, I’ll circle back to Galladon, and more specifically Morne.

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Given the role that the Just Maid plays in Ser Galladon's tale, Maester Hubert, in his Kin of the Stag, has suggested that Galladon of Morne was no rude warrior of the Age of Heroes turned into a knight by singers a thousand years later, but an actual historic figure of more recent times. Hubert also notes that Morne was a royal seat of petty kings on the eastern coast of Tarth until the Storm Kings made them submit, but that its ruins indicate that the site was made by Andals, not First Men.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: The Men of the Stormlands

However, we are given the story of the Storm kings marrying the Daughter of the Evenstar from Morne and acquiring control of Tarth occurring before the Andals invaded.

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Somewhat better sources exist for later centuries, however. We can say with fair certainty that the great island kingdom of Tarth fell under the sway of House Durrandon when Durran the Fair took to wife the daughter of its king, Edwyn Evenstar. Their grandson, Erich the Sailmaker (most likely Erich III), was the first to claim Estermont and the lesser isles farther south.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: House Durrandon

Yet above, the Maeser is saying the ruins indicate Andal construction and not First Men. There is an obvious contradiction here.

The conclusion proposed by the World of Ice and Fire is that the tales of Galladon of Morn may have been about a more modern historical figure. However, I am inclined to reach the opposite conclusion.

It isn’t just the stories of knights long before the arrival of the Andals, there appear to be a number of sites in Westeros that predate the Andal invasion and yet appear to have more advanced technology than the First Men were known to have. In particular, iron working, round towers, and more advanced seafaring (something evidenced even here by Erich the Sailmaker, and his ability to conquer the islands).

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Within its walls, the castle sprawls across several acres of land, encompassing many freestanding buildings. The oldest of these—a long-abandoned tower, round and squat and covered with gargoyles—has become known as the First Keep. Some take this to mean that it was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet has definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towers and keeps. Round towers came sometime later.

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: Winterfell

Winterfell’s First Keep is a round tower, oddly with gargoyles, and iron sword in the tombs below so old they have rusted away completely. The stories of the Others say they hated iron, this would have been difficult to know if there was no iron around the first time the Others came, long before the Andal supposedly brought ironworking to Westeros.

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Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Winterfell is not alone. Storms End is a giant round tower with a sea door.

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Of towers, there was but one, a colossal drum tower, windowless where it faced the sea, so large that it was granary and barracks and feast hall and lord's dwelling all in one, crowned by massive battlements that made it look from afar like a spiked fist atop an upthrust arm.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn III

The Hightower, while built on a truly ancient square base of black stone, has a stone tower stretching up to a ridiculous height. Although I admit it’s unclear to me if the stone tower is round or not.

All three above examples were said to be associated with Brandon the Builder, and all three appear to be remarkably more advanced than the average First Man construction.

Oldtown has been around since the time of the First Men, and the oldest structure in the Citadel is the Isle of Ravens. This old castle, supposedly once home to a pirate lord (read seafaring) has two towers that house the ravens as well as being home to Marwyn the Mage, whose room in the tower is round, presumably implying the tower is round as well.

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Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

When Sam hesitated, one of those hands grabbed him by the arm and yanked him through the door. The room beyond was large and round.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

For comparison we can look at Highgarden, arguably the grandest of castles in Westeros, who’s description highlights the difference in towers.

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Highgarden's tallest towers, round and slender, look down upon neighbors far more ancient, square and grim in appearance, the oldest of them dating from the Age of Heroes. The rest of the castle is of more recent construction, much of it built by King Mern VI after the destruction of the original structures by the Dornish during the reign of Garth Greybeard.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Highgarden

Brandon the Builder founded house Stark and built Winterfell. He helped construct Storms End and helped build the Hightower for Uthor of the High Tower. Uthor’s son, Peremore the Twisted, was said to be the cause of the Citadel’s founding, and the oldest structure in the Citadel has round towers. (Uther Pendragon was the father of King Arthur, who got the epithet when he saw a portentous dragon shaped comet which inspired him to put dragons on his banners).

In addition, the Isle of Ravens was a “pirate castle”, and the Maesters’ link for ravenry is made of iron.

It isn’t to much of a leap to imagine that the “pirate” lord, who’s castle became the Isle of Ravens, was Ironborn.

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Samwell, it is not my habit to speak unkindly of my brothers, but let us be frank . . . the ironborn are a race of pirates and thieves

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

The “Iron” Islands are the home of the “Iron” Born, a people certainly not Andal and perhaps not First Man either.

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The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer-sided pillar on which it stood half-eaten through by the endless battering of the waves.

A Clash of Kings - Theon I

And lo, they too have round towers.

What's the point o' having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?

It's also hard to believe that a people would be called the "ironborn" before they discovered ironworking. Perhaps it is a stretch, but iron is also the metal associated with Mars, our red wanderer sacred to the smith (or the theif). The iron content is what makes it appear red, as it does for blood. While "bloodstone" is it's own thing in real life, it doesn't take much imagination to see how one might call iron, bloodstone. I think this iron-blood connection is also reflected in the Others hating both iron and blood.

The Bloodstone Emperor meanwhile was said to have founded the Church of Starry Wisdom, which still persists in many ports throughout the world, including Braavos where Arya hears them singing to the night sky from atop their scrying tower.

"Honor," she said. "The point is honor."

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"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

In conclusion, I suspect that Houses Stark, Durrandon, Hightower, Dayne, and possibly even the Ironborn may have had ancestors from a seafaring people who had advanced ironworking long before the Andals, and construction before round towers were introduced. It's even possible that the names Galladon, Durrandon, and Brandon all ending in "dawn" is not a coincidence.

I also believe there is a direct connection between the order of the Night's Watch, the order of Maesters, and the Sword of the Morning.

Perhaps rather than all these tales literally being about on man, they are instead about one group, whose journey can be evidenced from Mourne to Starfall, from Storms End to the Hightower, and from the Iron Islands to Winterfell. Perhaps even a faded line of kings, dating back to the dawn of days, possibly even sharing its roots with the predecessors of Valyria, whose coloring can still be evidenced in some of these houses, seemingly predating both the Conquest and perhaps even Valyria itself.

It's worth noting that the "Children of the Forrest" of Essos appear to have been wiped out, like the Ifequevron, or enslaved like the servitors of the House of the Undying. So a search for them might well take adventurers to Westeros.

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"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost."

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

The point was not to conquer like Valyria, but to protect, be it from a wall in the north, a library in Oldtown, or using a magic sword with honor. It's not the vows which make a true knight like Sir Gallahad, but doing what is right in service to something greater. A light in the dark, burning against the cold, protecting against ignorance, and a shining example of virtue.

So when the world was darkest, and beset by the Long Night, it was the Last Hero who set out to find the Children of the Forrest, to win back what the armies of men had lost, the dawn and their honor.

[Tucu]

We recently had a discussion in the Heresy thread about Ser Galladon, the Venus cycle, the wandering stars and the fallen stars (including the Seven being fallen stars). You might enjoy it even though we didn't reach any conclusions (and took a few tangents)

 

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So when the world was darkest, and beset by the Long Night, it was the Last Hero who set out to find the Children of the Forrest, to win back what the armies of men had lost, the dawn and their honor.

Nicely done! I'm sure Tucu will have something to add.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Close to two months ago I made a post about Galladon of Morne possibly being the original wielder of Lightbringer. There seems to be a whole play on words going on. It started when I was looking at the maps of the Lands of the World of Ice and Fire and spotting the Mountains of the Morn, which are located near the Five Forts and what would have been the ancient Great Empire of the Dawn. Mountains of the Morn in the Great Empire of the Dawn. 

The Mountains of the Morn made me think of Galladon of Morne. So I looked at Brienne's story about him.

The Maiden lost her heart to Galladon and bestowed the Just Maid upon him. Interestingly enough there is also a Maiden in the GEotD, and that's the Maiden-Made-of-Light. And Dawn is said to be alive with light. And Jaime describes the sword in a fight, Arthur v. the Smiling Knight, where his (ordinary) blade could not check Dawn. The sword was all notched and Arthur stopped the fight to allow him to get another sword. 

So if Galladon's origins are in the Mountains of the Morn(ing), in the Great Empire of the Dawn, then it might place him there during the Long Night. Even the Lion of Night has the same initials as the Long Night. And I think that the story of the forging of Lightbringer when Azor Ahai tries to temper his sword in the heart of a lion might be him trying to kill the Lion of Night.

If Dawn originated in the Mountains of the Morn(ing), then it would make it the Sword of the Morning, no? So the title the Sword of the Morning would have more to do with the sword's origins. 

Galladon (who may or may not have another name) at some point leaves the further east and arrives on Tarth where his landing place becomes known as Morne and he becomes known hence of forth as Galladon of Morne. Then the Andals arrive and we know how big they are on cultural appropriation, so they take the story and make it part of their history and folklore. Instead of the Maiden-Made-of-Light being part of Galladon's tale, it's now the Maiden and of course, the sword is named after her, the Just Maid.

If Galladon originated in the Mountains of the Morn(ing), then this could be where House Day(ne) originated and some other Houses might be descendants of whatever children he had. 

I do want to point out that Dawn is the name of a woman. So the sword of the Dayne might actually be named after her since names in legends vary from one place to the other.

I posted about it on my blog here.

And on the board right below. As you can see, there was close to zero interest in this, which is why I'm this close to giving up on this fandom.

 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And on the board right below. As you can see, there was close to zero interest in this, which is why I'm this close to giving up on this fandom.

Well I like it!  

[chrisdaw]

Galladon the bloody perfect knight is just a simple Sandor parallel. Watch Sansa give Sandor a magic (Valyrian) sword (Lady Forlorn), and the pious true knight refuse to use it in regular combat, but bust it out against a dragon and an immortal 8 foot tall foe (UnGregor).

I should mention why it matters, what a Sandor reference like this is doing in a Brien chapter. Brien has an inferiority complex,

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Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not.

By the time Brienne's arc is through she's going to have fought along side champions such as Jaime, Sandor, Barristan, Gendry and so on, who will prove to be as great as her legends, and she will not be out of place amongst them.

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

So when Crab says, “Ser Gallawho of what?”, I think the answer is Galla- “dawn” of “the morning”.

... More than this, I would suggest that Azor Ahai (Galladon of Morne), was also The Last Hero, and that Galla-don, Durran-don, Bran-don, and Dawn are all connected.

Very nice. Anything is helpful that can link the big four - Lann the Clever, Bran the Builder, The Storm King and Garth Greenhands - to our current events. Making the connections between and among myth, legend, folk tale and history will also help us to see what's next in ASOIAF. 

Men keep giving swords to Brienne - she took Renly's sword (and later regretted that she no longer had it). She was given a blunt wooden practice sword to defend herself against the bear at Harrenhal. Jaime gave her Oathkeeper. I wonder whether she will eventually be given the sword Dawn?

[Tucu]

Some additional quotes on fallen stars, bleeding stars and wandering stars that seem relevant (taken from the Heresy thread I mentioned) .

Tywin was a fallen star:

Quote

By the time they left Maegor's Holdfast, the sky had turned a deep cobalt blue, though the stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now

The stars will bleed:

Quote

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

The Seven were both fallen stars and wandering stars. Will they be again?

Quote

Andalos. The Faith taught that the Seven themselves had once walked the hills of Andalos in human form. “The Father reached his hand into the heavens and pulled down seven stars,” Tyrion recited from memory, “and one by one he set them on the brow of Hugor of the Hill to make a glowing crown.”

Magister Illyrio gave him a curious look. “I did not dream my little friend was so devout.”

The dwarf shrugged. “A relic of my boyhood. I knew I would not make a knight, so I decided to be High Septon. That crystal crown adds a foot to a man’s height. I studied the holy books and prayed until I had scabs on both my knees, but my quest came to a tragic end. I reached that certain age and fell in love.”

The Stranger is a wanderer with stars for eyes (a nod to Symeon Star-Eyes?):

Quote

And the seventh face … the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.

The Bloodstone emperor worshipped a fallen star:

Quote

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

Lady Stoneheart could be counted as a (corrupted?) re-incarnation of The Mother:

Quote

"M'lady." The wine was making her head spin. It was hard to think. "Stoneheart. Is that who you mean?" Lord Randyll had spoken of her, back at Maidenpool. "Lady Stoneheart."

"Some call her that. Some call her other things. The Silent Sister. Mother Merciless. The Hangwoman."

 

[Mourning Star]

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

Some additional quotes on fallen stars, bleeding stars and wandering stars that seem relevant (taken from the Heresy thread I mentioned) .

Tywin was a fallen star:

interesting that a deep cobalt blue sky is associated here with the brightest star in the west, the Evenstar.

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

The stars will bleed:

The Seven were both fallen stars and wandering stars. Will they be again?

I can’t get over how much the crown of stars makes me think of JRR Tolkien’s Song of Durin. 

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

The Stranger is a wanderer with stars for eyes (a nod to Symeon Star-Eyes?):

I actually cut a section about Symeon Star Eyes and Serwyn of the Mirror Sheild. I suspect that these are stories of Others before the Wall was built.

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

The Bloodstone emperor worshipped a fallen star:

sure seems that way

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

Lady Stoneheart could be counted as a (corrupted?) re-incarnation of The Mother:

Perhaps... Cat was certainly the mother in our original group of PoVs. Perhaps a mother’s vengeance is an aspect of that.

[Mourning Star]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

Nicely done! I'm sure Tucu will have something to add.

Thank you!

[Seams]

21 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Florian the Fool is a legend from the Age of Heroes about a knight who had an iron suit of motley and a magic sword who saw his love Jonquil in a pool, located in Maidenpool.

This is a fantastic example of how the legends of Westeros feature knights riding around long before the arrival of the Andals, and both ironworking itself and knightly vows supposedly arrived with the Andals.

... I think it’s entirely possible that many of these old tales are the same story told different ways.

... The conclusion proposed by the World of Ice and Fire is that the tales of Galladon of Morn may have been about a more modern historical figure. However, I am inclined to reach the opposite conclusion.

I share your suspicion of a common source for the Florian and Jonquil story and the Galladon of Morne story. And I do see GRRM repeating elements of those stories in the events of ASOIAF. Because the story is playing out among our current cast of characters, I think he has deliberately hidden the full plot of the earlier tales or legends. 

For instance, we know that the Florian and Jonquil story has a sad ending, but we don't know what that ending is.

Quote

After the meal had been cleared away, many of the guests asked leave to go to the sept. Cersei graciously granted their request. Lady Tanda and her daughters were among those who fled. For those who remained, a singer was brought forth to fill the hall with the sweet music of the high harp. He sang of Jonquil and Florian, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and his love for his brother's queen, of Nymeria's ten thousand ships. They were beautiful songs, but terribly sad. Several of the women began to weep, and Sansa felt her own eyes growing moist. (ACoK, Sansa VI)

Sansa and Ser Dontos use Florian and Jonquil as a code to hide their secret plant for Sansa to escape the Red Keep. Like Florian, Dontos is both a knight and a fool, but we are not sure whether the elements of the escape plan match elements of the story. As far as we know, Dontos does not see Sansa bathing and she does not give him a weapon.

But the Florian and Jonquil symbolism seems to apply to the Hound's appearance in Sansa's bedchamber before he goes AWOL during the Battle of the Blackwater. He demands that she sing the Florian and Jonquil song, holding a dagger to her throat. Instead, she sings a religious song about The Mother. 

Of course, Sansa ends up married to Tyrion. He is show a couple of times wearing mismatched (motley) armor and clothing and he becomes a fool/knight when he joins Penny in the mummer jousting act. 

Tanselle's puppet shows in The Hedge Knight include the killing of a dragon and also the Florian story. We know that singers and mummers and puppeteers are often "truth tellers" in ASOIAF and that some characters will go to great lengths to silence the performers. So the reaction to the puppet show by contemporary characters is of great interest: Prince Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen seems to be angry that the dragon puppet dies and that red sawdust (simulated blood, presumably) comes out of its severed neck.

Quote

As he ate he watched a painted wooden knight battle a painted wooden dragon. The puppeteer who worked the dragon was good to watch too; ... Dunk liked her face and the way her fingers made the dragon snap and slither at the end of its strings. 

... Dunk stopped to watch the wooden dragon slain. When the puppet knight cut its head off and the red sawdust spilled out onto the grass, he laughed aloud and threw the girl two coppers. "One for last night,"

[The Florian and Jonquil tale] ... It was a good show, sad and sweet both, with a sprightly swordfight at the end, and a nicely painted giant. 

[Prince Baelor] As for the matter of these puppeteers, by the time Aerion is done twisting the tale it will be high treason. The dragon is the sigil of the royal House. To portray one being slain, sawdust blood spilling from its neck . . . well, it was doubtless innocent, but it was far from wise. Aerion calls it a veiled attack on House Targaryen, an incitement to revolt. Maekar will likely agree. 

I mention the red sawdust because I think it goes to your exploration of the First Men / Andal timeline: trees (made of wood) were sacred to the First Men; dragons arrived many years later with the Valyrians. My literary analysis gut is telling me that Aerion's anger toward Tanselle is not about the defeat of the dragon per se, but that he doesn't want people to know that there is sawdust inside of dragons. So what does the sawdust mean? Does it mean that there are trees, or tree blood, at the core of the dragons? There is a lot of wine being served and ingested as Baelor and Dunk discuss Dunk's likely punishment for hitting Prince Aerion. I suspect that wine is "tree blood" in ASOIAF. I suspect GRRM is giving us an ironic moment when Prince Baelor (a known Targaryen) and Dunk (probably a Blackfyre prince) drink wine as they discuss the problem of showing the dead dragon spilling sawdust (more tree blood) in the puppet show. 

Perhaps ironically, though, Aerion's henchmen end up tearing apart the dragon puppet, doing worse damage than the puppet knight in the show. 

Quote

One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces. And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle's arm in both hands. 

That reminds me of the Clanking Dragon sign made for the inn that becomes known as the inn at the crossroads. That sign falls to pieces, goes into the river Trident, and the pieces wash up on the Quiet Isle.

As I was pulling out these excerpts from ACoK and The Hedge Knight, I noticed an interesting parallel between the Tanselle/Aerion interaction in The Hedge Knight and the Sansa/Hound interaction in Clash. Both Aerion and The Hound twist the arm of Tanselle and Sansa - Aerion wants Tanselle to stop performing her puppet shows and The Hound wants Sansa to sing. In The Hedge Knight, Egg refers to Tanselle as "the puppet girl." I wonder whether GRRM wants us to think of Sansa as a "puppet girl" in ASOIAF? Petyr Baelish draws down Sansa / Alayne to sit on his lap as he explains to her his strategy behind the betrothal to Harry the Heir. It's almost as if she is a ventriloquist's mannequin and he is putting ideas in her head.

With Dontos, The Hound and Tyrion (all protectors of Sansa) compared to the Florian of the legend, this also creates a parallel with Dunk as the fool / knight protector of Tanselle. 

But I'm getting caught up in the analysis already. My main points were to support the notion that the Florian & Jonquil story is likely a variation on the story of Ser Galladon and the Maiden, and to speculate about the First Men / Andal / Valyrian mash-up that may be represented by the dragon stuffed with tree blood. 

[Frey family reunion]

@LynnS @Tucu

There was another link between the Even(ing)Star and the Morning Star that was discussed in Heresy, but I don’t remember who first brought up this connection. 

It concerns the Pawnee Morning Star Ceremony.  Where a young maiden is kidnapped from a rival tribe and well, it’s pretty gruesome:

Quote

One of the important Pawnee ceremonies, the Morning Star Ceremony, involved the sacrifice of a young woman. As a part of the ceremony, a captive woman would be tied spread-eagled to a wooden frame and every man and boy in the camp would shoot an arrow into her body. The young woman represented Evening Star and with her death, her soul went to her husband Morning Star who then clothed her with the colors of the dawn. The reunion of Morning Star and Evening Star meant the renewal of growing things on earth. The Morning Star Ceremony was a fertility rite, and from the Pawnee perspective, the young woman was not a victim, but a messenger.

Quote

On the last day of the ceremony, the men and boys from the village would take the captive outside of the village to a place where they had erected a scaffold. This scaffold represented Evening Star’s garden in the west, the source of all animal and plant life.

The captive would be placed on the scaffold and her clothing removed. When the morning star appeared, two men would approach her from the east and touch her lightly with torches. Four other men would then touch her with war clubs. The warrior who had captured her with then come forward with a sacred bow and shoot her through the heart with a sacred arrow. At the same time, another warrior would strike on the head with the war club from the Morning Star bundle.

To make me think that GRRM was both aware of and intentionally referenced this ritual, we have the manner of Ygritte’s death, a woman, who was “kissed by fire”, who was then finally killed by an arrow to the heart.

And we also have the death of Rattleshirt, in the form of Mance, who was literally touched by fire before an arrow to the chest ended his life as well.

[Tucu]

29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

@LynnS @Tucu

There was another link between the Even(ing)Star and the Morning Star that was discussed in Heresy, but I don’t remember who first brought up this connection. 

It concerns the Pawnee Morning Star Ceremony.  Where a young maiden is kidnapped from a rival tribe and well, it’s pretty gruesome:

To make me think that GRRM was both aware of and intentionally referenced this ritual, we have the manner of Ygritte’s death, a woman, who was “kissed by fire”, who was then finally killed by an arrow to the heart.

And we also have the death of Rattleshirt, in the form of Mance, who was literally touched by fire before an arrow to the chest ended his life as well.

I forgot about that. We discussed that in Heresy 210/211 while we were digging into child sacrifice themes.

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

@LynnS @Tucu

There was another link between the Even(ing)Star and the Morning Star that was discussed in Heresy, but I don’t remember who first brought up this connection. 

It concerns the Pawnee Morning Star Ceremony.  Where a young maiden is kidnapped from a rival tribe and well, it’s pretty gruesome:

To make me think that GRRM was both aware of and intentionally referenced this ritual, we have the manner of Ygritte’s death, a woman, who was “kissed by fire”, who was then finally killed by an arrow to the heart.

And we also have the death of Rattleshirt, in the form of Mance, who was literally touched by fire before an arrow to the chest ended his life as well.

I don't remember that discussion but it is certainly apropos especially in the context of Nissa Nissa.  The comet is also called the red messenger:

A Search of Ice and Fire | ' red messenger'

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

interesting that a deep cobalt blue sky is associated here with the brightest star in the west, the Evenstar.

Nice!. A quick search found this: Brienne, the daughter of the Evenstar with cobalt armor and morningstar:

Quote

His steel was a deep cobalt, even the blunt morningstar he wielded with such deadly effect, his mount barded in the quartered sun-and-moon heraldry of House Tarth.

Somehow both Brienne and Jamie are linked to the Evening star

[Frey family reunion]

I definitely like the idea of the "Just Maid" transforming into "Dawn".  It makes me think that either symbolically, Brienne may take up Dawn and thus the mantle of Sword of the Morning, or perhaps more literally, there may be a situation where Brienne is transformed into something else.  A "lightbringer"  type figure.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Nice!. A quick search found this: Brienne, the daughter of the Evenstar with cobalt armor and morningstar:

Somehow both Brienne and Jamie are linked to the Evening star

Five stars or wanderers, plus the sun and the moon.  Jaime's color is yellow or gold:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

 

[Tucu]

Found a couple of Dornish lightbringers at the Wall. Nymeria sent 6 kings to the Wall; among them:

-Vorian Dayne, King of the Torrentine and Sword of the Evening

-Lucifer, King of the Brimstone and Lord of Hellgate (Hall)

Nymeria also married Davos Dayne, Sword of the Morning.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Found a couple of Dornish lightbringers at the Wall. Nymeria sent 6 kings to the Wall; among them:

-Vorian Dayne, King of the Torrentine and Sword of the Evening

-Lucifer, King of the Brimstone and Lord of Hellgate (Hall)

Nymeria also married Davos Dayne, Sword of the Morning.

Interesting.  So there are swords of the evening and swords of the morning and of course, Lucifer means light bringer.  I wonder if its the sword of the evening that takes up the sword, when the sword of the morning 'falls'.  And if there is a new sword of the morning with the return of the sun and dawn, figuratively speaking.   Lucifer/Lightbringer would seem to connect with the Dawn sword i some way. 

Did Hellgate Hall become Hellholt?

Starfell?

Hellholt - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) 

[Seams]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Did Hellgate Hall become Hellholt?

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hellgate_Hall

The wiki says, "It is unknown what happened to the castle after the defeat of King Lucifer Dryland, as he was the last of his line."

Hmm.