Fitting Dawn in with House Stark

[Corvo the Crow]

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[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We first see the blade in Cressen's chapter if I recall, so he'd have noticed it, or was it Davos' chapter in which the ritual was performed?

I'm not sure.  I have to read the chapter again.  Cat describes it:

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn III

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore. Otherwise his dress was plain: studded leather jerkin over quilted doublet, worn boots, breeches of brown roughspun. The device on his sun-yellow banner showed a red heart surrounded by a blaze of orange fire. The crowned stag was there, yes . . . shrunken and enclosed within the heart. Even more curious was his standard bearer—a woman, garbed all in reds, face shadowed within the deep hood of her scarlet cloak. A red priestess, Catelyn thought, wondering. The sect was numerous and powerful in the Free Cities and the distant east, but there were few in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We first see the blade in Cressen's chapter if I recall, so he'd have noticed it, or was it Davos' chapter in which the ritual was performed?

No Cressen doesn't see the sword and Davos only sees the fake sword burned and ruined with wildfire when Mel burns the faith of the seven gods.  There certainly isn't a ruby in the hilt.  So it's a pantomime sword.

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A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort. "It glimmers prettily, I'll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?"

 

I'm not sure this disqualifies the sword as valyrian steel.  Stannis may not know what he has in his hands.

[Julia H.]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Battle Island came up much earlier in the conversation I think with no history at all on that bit of architecture perhaps that was where guardians of the south resided?  I want you to work on the words for the Days (Lights?) Watch brothers--very cool.

Dawn rises, and now my watch begins. I am the sword of the morning. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns in the sun, the light that shines in the dawn, the horn that binds the dragons, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Day(ne)'s Watch...

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The words of House Stark are something of a puzzle.  "Winter is coming."  I would add "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell".  I put them together as: There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because winter is coming.  Why?

And why are Starks called the kings of winter?  Do they only rule during the winter?  In the Night King story, the Stark in Winterfell isn't called the king of winter.   They seemed to only be called kings of winter when they die and are sealed in the crypts with iron to prevent their ghosts from rising.

But we do have the 13th lord commander referred to as ruling the night.  Winter and the long night are interchangeable terms and he could be called the Night King of Winter who allied himself with the Others.  Something that is clearly not supposed to happen.  The Starks in Winterfell seem to be established to make sure that doesn't happen.  So it seems there is always a danger that this could happen again.

The Daynes of old were also kings.  So we have day kings and night kings.  Perhaps it is the task of the Daynes to slay the night king, should the Starks in Winterfell fail.

If the dawn sword was the weapon given to the last hero and he defeated the Others in a trial by champion; he would claim the sword of the Winter becoming the King of Winter.  The enemy sword would be the sword Ice.  I suspect it is a cursed object containing the soul of ice; something that continues to exist and present a danger to it's keepers.

So the question is what is kept hidden in the crypts and why is Jon's soul drawn to the frozen hell reserved for Starks?

So now we have no sword of the morning and no Stark in Winterfell.  All the fail safes are gone.  Ned dreams of the coming Others just before he is killed:

"A blood streaked sky and a storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death."

All winter needs now is a King.

The only thing left standing is the Wall, the Watch and Bran and whomever can become the warrior of light and claim the dawn sword.

 

Perhaps the Stark in Winterfell was considered the King of Winter because he would have to rule all the realms of men when the Long Night started again. So, they were supposed to be ever ready for this event.

The idea of day kings and night kings ties nicely into the idea of Night's Watch and Day's Watch. I also find it increasingly more likely that in this case Starks and Daynes were not supposed to kill each other. At least the King of Winter and the Sword of the Morning definitely not. Which makes me wonder... Apparently there were prophecies of the Long Night coming again, and Rhaegar may have understood it, so he acted with the purpose of securing the safety of the realm, but his actions (taking Lyanna and ordering the Sword of the Morning to guard her) may have actually made the Long Night possible because they led to Eddard and Arthur fighting each other.

It is interesting about Ice... Maybe it was a sword taken from the Others and it was hidden so no one could use it. Perhaps. But it is also possible that it was the Stark sword, similar to Dawn, the Dayne sword, and similar to the Others' swords (Ice and Dawn being the only swords of the type in possession of humans). Perhaps both swords had to be used to guard the realms of men, one in the South and the other one in the North. (That would solve the mystery of why a sword which obviously has something to do with the Others is kept in the South - because it was one of two swords to be kept at the two ends of the continent.) Now, however, the original Ice is lost and no one wields Dawn. 

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From that day to this day, Torrhen Stark is remembered as the King Who Knelt...but no Northman left his burned bones beside the Trident, and the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted or melted or bent.

What kind of sword did Aegon collect from Lord Stark and what did he do with it? Could it be ancestral Ice? Or was is Valyrian steel Ice, which was then simply returned to Torrhen?

Just a fleeting thought though because Ice was probably lost before that ... or hidden. The Winterfell crypts might be a good place to look for it.

Another interesting point is Lightbringer being of Valyrian steel. One can't help thinking of all those lost Valyrian blades... Brightroar? Or Truth? That would be ironic.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Dawn rises, and now my watch begins. I am the sword of the morning. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns in the sun, the light of the dawn, the horn that binds the dragons, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Day(ne)'s Watch...

I like this!

7 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

What kind of sword did Aegon collect from Lord Stark and what did he do with it? Could it be ancestral Ice? Or was is Valyrian steel Ice, which was then simply returned to Torrhen?

I think it was ordinary castle forged steel.  A stand-in for the sword that is hidden.  I think Aegon gave Torrhen Stark a valyrian steel sword as a reward for his allegience and the replace the sword he took.  It's a symbolic gesture that says Torrhen Stark is now a sword in the service to the crown.  It also raises Torrhen back up after having him kneel in front of all his bannermen.

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, Egged said:

lol so it's a lightsaber.

Sure.  Why not, if there's a kind of Luke Skywalker situation involved. Whatever GRRM means by that:

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What did you ask him about in return?
You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow’s real parents were, and he told me. I can’t say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It’s definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that’s why there’s incest with the Targaryen line. It’s toned down, though.

 

Game of Thrones’ Alfie Allen on Theon’s Finale Speech, His Daddy Issues, and George R.R. Martin’s Love of Lily Allen (vulture.com)

[Julia H.]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it was ordinary castle forged steel.  A stand-in for the sword that is hidden.  

Yes, that seems to be the smartest thing to do.

I wonder when the hiding place of the sword was forgotten.

[Damsel in Distress]

On 1/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers.  TWOIAF Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

Dawn is the oldest surviving sword in ASOIAF.  She is rich in lore and history.  Said to have been made from the heart of a falling star Dawn’s appearance is like no other in Westeros.  Pale as milkglass, this is no castle forged, perhaps not even spell forged sword.  Dawn is a sword of destiny.   While Lightbringer is called the Red Sword of Heroes the name shares meaning with Dawn.  Lightbringer isn’t said to be made of any special material.  No, it is the tempering of the steel in Azor Ahai’s beloved wife’s heart.  Dual sacrifice brought the magic to Lightbringer after it was made.   Dawn is set apart from all others in its material, the heart of a celestial body..a stone of magical powers.   This reminds me of Bran’s tears at his vision of the heart of winter.   Can’t help but wonder how that all connects. 

Dawn is similar in appearance to the ones in Daenerys' dream.  Ancient kings lined the hallway, encouraging her on.  In their hands they held glowing swords.  Dawn is not unique.

On 1/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

Many readers have accepted that Dawn is in fact Lightbringer.   Though possible, I am simply not certain.   How can I get Dawn directly to the Starks and The Long Night?  Sure some current character can take Dawn north and we can call it a day.   Still that doesn’t explain how Dawn was originally connected or why this is a Dayne sword in the south.   The problem lies north, not south where the Sword of the Morning resides or will eventually.   If Dawn is Lightbringer it’s got to be connected to House Stark somehow.  Hearts indeed. 

There is an opposing connection.  The Starks have a weapon which will usher in the cold and the dark.  Dark and cold is the Stark's milieu.

On 1/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

House Stark was not the 1^st of the 1^st Men.   No, House Stark seems to have been established after the events of The Long Night after The Last Hero and pre Night’s Watch group pushed The Others back.  History decrees this pushing back was in some way a result of the intercession of the Children of the Forest and perhaps the introduction to dragon glass.  8 to 10,000 years later here is Ned Stark and Howland Reed killing the last Sword of the Morning.  We are told there was no time for returning the fallen members of Team Ned or even Arthur Dayne, much less his bothers of the Kingsguard.   No, all Ned had time to do was gather up Lyanna’s body, Dustin’s horse, baby Jon and Dawn.   Why would Dawn’s return be such a pressing matter during this?  Sure, honor no doubt plays into this, but it’s not the only motive.   Ned knows Dawn must return to Starfall just as a Stark must be in Winterfell.  Something far older than House Stark is at play in this return. 

Starfall and Winterfell are opposites.  Winterfell is where winter begins.  Starfall is where the weapon which could help turn back the Starks and Winter began.  Bran Stark will use wights as weapons.  Dawn has the power to extinguish the wights.  A Stark will not have Dawn. 

On 1/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

Sword of the Morning is an interesting title for the only person who can wield legendary Dawn.  ASOIAF is rife with concepts of heroism from Sandor Clegane declaring with all his heart that men are all just killers to the perfect Lady Gallahad herself, Brienne of Tarth to a certain Kingslayer who remembers why he became a knight.  There are bastards and second sons and inconvenient heirs and little girls who can all qualify as heroes here.  All it takes is courage to follow through on doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do.  And a magic sword.  With this in mind I offer that The Last Hero was a bastard son of House Dayne.   It was the Dawn Age that gave way to the Age of heroes, after all. 

The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.  TWOIAF Dorne: The Andals Arrive

I submit our Last Hero was the 1^st Sword of the Morning and that Dawn gained her name in the events ending The Long Night.   Yes, that would make House Stark a cadet branch of House Dayne, sort of, way way back.  Long enough to forget the blood tie at any rate. 

No.  It is more likely that the Sword of the Morning fought the Starks of old.  I will submit to you that the chain of events which began the Long Night started at the Tower of Joy.  The Dark Stark killed The Sword of the Morning.  Darkness triumphed over the Light in that place. 

On 1/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

Now, wait a minute, the Starks had their own cool mysterious sword in Ice forever, you say.   Right.  What does Ice look like?  Well it’s sort of white-ish and crystally and shiny, isn’t it?  Glaciers look like milkglass if nothing else.   Are Dawn and Ice one in the same?  I don’t think so.   It’s possible Dawn served as Ice in the beginning, a few months, a couple of years, but Dawn was tied to House Dayne specifically.   Get your own sword, Starks.  Returning Dawn to Starfall may have begun right there with a Dayne bastard returning this wondrous magical sword to its proper place.   (Or the Lord of Starfall coming for it.)  Ah good.   So where did Ice come from?   A subject for another topic at another time.  

Dayne =/= Stark

 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The words of House Stark are something of a puzzle.  "Winter is coming."  I would add "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell".  I put them together as: There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because winter is coming.  Why?

And why are Starks called the kings of winter?  Do they only rule during the winter?  In the Night King story, the Stark in Winterfell isn't called the king of winter.   They seemed to only be called kings of winter when they die and are sealed in the crypts with iron to prevent their ghosts from rising.

But we do have the 13th lord commander referred to as ruling the night.  Winter and the long night are interchangeable terms and he could be called the Night King of Winter who allied himself with the Others.  Something that is clearly not supposed to happen.  The Starks in Winterfell seem to be established to make sure that doesn't happen.  So it seems there is always a danger that this could happen again.

The Daynes of old were also kings.  So we have day kings and night kings.  Perhaps it is the task of the Daynes to slay the night king, should the Starks in Winterfell fail.

If the dawn sword was the weapon given to the last hero and he defeated the Others in a trial by champion; he would claim the sword of the Winter becoming the King of Winter.  The enemy sword would be the sword Ice.  I suspect it is a cursed object containing the soul of ice; something that continues to exist and present a danger to it's keepers.

So the question is what is kept hidden in the crypts and why is Jon's soul drawn to the frozen hell reserved for Starks?

So now we have no sword of the morning and no Stark in Winterfell.  All the fail safes are gone.  Ned dreams of the coming Others just before he is killed:

"A blood streaked sky and a storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death."

All winter needs now is a King.

The only thing left standing is the Wall, the Watch and Bran and whomever can become the warrior of light and claim the dawn sword.

 

Teach me to try to sleep when there is an interesting topic going!   So I am doing a little research inspired by this here post.   Our friend @Seams has done a ton of research on the crown of the King In the North and that is precisely where your post took me in trying to get a handle on House Stark.   They were the LAST kingdom of the 1st Men in the north.  We know of the other 4 great kings the Starks had to overcome to gain this catch all title of Kings of Winter.  Try to keep in mind this is important to me because we are never told the Starks actually had any sort of magical talent at all.  Only the Starks bore this title.   The crown of the Kings of Winter is a bronze circlet with 9 IRON swords and ancient runes upon it--Sure sounds like that One Ring to me.   Of the conquests made there are the big 4--The Marsh Kings or Crannogmen, The Red Kings or Boltons (I think this is where the skin changing comes in), The Barrows Kings or Dustins and the Warg King who was likely from House Blackwood.  The nine swords are all the same size indicating equal value on the crown.   I assume the remaining 5 swords represent other ruling houses--The Giants of House Umber, perhaps that Mailed Fist of House Glover, The Vigilant House Flint...there are actually 17 houses mentioned in the Wiki so hard to determine which of those many are represented by  the swords--and the sword could represent regions without acknowledging houses.   

9 Swords of Winter.  Why not 12 as many of us assume took part in the Battle for Dawn?  Were 3 betrayers?  Did they not show up?  Or were there only 9 swords involved?  Is it possible that Dawn and Ice and likely Nightfall were something else?  Other's swords in the cases of Ice and Nightfall?  (Using contemporary names for swords because there is no telling if the original swords had names or not--I don't think they were necessarily all there, but the names are representative.  Dawn isn't VS that much is clear as well as it is said to be old enough to have participated in this battle.  Dawn is the stand out here.  If it was to be represented on the crown wouldn't it likely be displayed differently at least in color?  Or was this legendary weapon changed during the battle becoming the sword we now know as Dawn, white as milkglass?

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yes, that seems to be the smartest thing to do.

I wonder when the hiding place of the sword was forgotten.

I'm going to say it was when winter fell at the end of the first long night.  In a place where there was a weirwood tree, a cave system that becomes the crypt and a round tower.  The humble beginnings of Winterfell.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Teach me to try to sleep when there is an interesting topic going!   So I am doing a little research inspired by this here post.   Our friend @Seams has done a ton of research on the crown of the King In the North and that is precisely where your post took me in trying to get a handle on House Stark.   They were the LAST kingdom of the 1st Men in the north.  We know of the other 4 great kings the Starks had to overcome to gain this catch all title of Kings of Winter.  Try to keep in mind this is important to me because we are never told the Starks actually had any sort of magical talent at all.  Only the Starks bore this title.   The crown of the Kings of Winter is a bronze circlet with 9 IRON swords and ancient runes upon it--Sure sounds like that One Ring to me.   Of the conquests made there are the big 4--The Marsh Kings or Crannogmen, The Red Kings or Boltons (I think this is where the skin changing comes in), The Barrows Kings or Dustins and the Warg King who was likely from House Blackwood.  The nine swords are all the same size indicating equal value on the crown.   I assume the remaining 5 swords represent other ruling houses--The Giants of House Umber, perhaps that Mailed Fist of House Glover, The Vigilant House Flint...there are actually 17 houses mentioned in the Wiki so hard to determine which of those many are represented by  the swords--and the sword could represent regions without acknowledging houses.   

9 Swords of Winter.  Why not 12 as many of us assume took part in the Battle for Dawn?  Were 3 betrayers?  Did they not show up?  Or were there only 9 swords involved?  Is it possible that Dawn and Ice and likely Nightfall were something else?  Other's swords in the cases of Ice and Nightfall?  (Using contemporary names for swords because there is no telling if the original swords had names or not--I don't think they were necessarily all there, but the names are representative.  Dawn isn't VS that much is clear as well as it is said to be old enough to have participated in this battle.  Dawn is the stand out here.  If it was to be represented on the crown wouldn't it likely be displayed differently at least in color?  Or was this legendary weapon changed during the battle becoming the sword we now know as Dawn, white as milkglass?

This is interesting.  I'm also of the impression that the COTF giving 100 pieces of obsidian to the Watch every year representing 100 Houses of the North each contributing a member to the original Night Watch.  The 9 iron swords could represent the strongest of these houses.  Although it also puts me in mind of the weirwood grove where Jon takes it's vows and the 9 weirwood trees.  Perhaps weirwood are key to these 9 houses.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Dawn rises, and now my watch begins. I am the sword of the morning. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns in the sun, the light that shines in the dawn, the horn that binds the dragons, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Day(ne)'s Watch...

Perhaps the Stark in Winterfell was considered the King of Winter because he would have to rule all the realms of men when the Long Night started again. So, they were supposed to be ever ready for this event.

The idea of day kings and night kings ties nicely into the idea of Night's Watch and Day's Watch. I also find it increasingly more likely that in this case Starks and Daynes were not supposed to kill each other. At least the King of Winter and the Sword of the Morning definitely not. Which makes me wonder... Apparently there were prophecies of the Long Night coming again, and Rhaegar may have understood it, so he acted with the purpose of securing the safety of the realm, but his actions (taking Lyanna and ordering the Sword of the Morning to guard her) may have actually made the Long Night possible because they led to Eddard and Arthur fighting each other.

It is interesting about Ice... Maybe it was a sword taken from the Others and it was hidden so no one could use it. Perhaps. But it is also possible that it was the Stark sword, similar to Dawn, the Dayne sword, and similar to the Others' swords (Ice and Dawn being the only swords of the type in possession of humans). Perhaps both swords had to be used to guard the realms of men, one in the South and the other one in the North. (That would solve the mystery of why a sword which obviously has something to do with the Others is kept in the South - because it was one of two swords to be kept at the two ends of the continent.) Now, however, the original Ice is lost and no one wields Dawn. 

What kind of sword did Aegon collect from Lord Stark and what did he do with it? Could it be ancestral Ice? Or was is Valyrian steel Ice, which was then simply returned to Torrhen?

Just a fleeting thought though because Ice was probably lost before that ... or hidden. The Winterfell crypts might be a good place to look for it.

Another interesting point is Lightbringer being of Valyrian steel. One can't help thinking of all those lost Valyrian blades... Brightroar? Or Truth? That would be ironic.

Just bitchen oath, Julia H!  Well done and thank you.  Bravo!  

Boy this conversation is sure sparking some difficult abstract questions.  I could be wrong, but I have assumed that because Ned left and then Robb left that the Stark in Winterfell didn't have to be the King of anything--only a Stark--we have a similar situation some years back when there were only women as regents over little boys as the Starks in Winterfell.  No ruling Lord of Winterfell at all.  I assume The Stark in Winterfell has some knowledge about TLN, but what?  Keep the crypts locked down so those nasty bastards don't go roaming the countryside or perhaps this is where ancestral Ice is hidden or something entirely else.  Perhaps there are some Daynes buried down beneath Winterfell?  But yah I can see the wisdom in your musing a prohibition on the killing of certain lineages or titles.  

Ding Ding!  Yah, outside of the Prince That was Promised prophecy, which seems to be coming rather than past, what says anyone really knew The Others would come again?   It makes absolute sense people would reckon there would be another Others appearance and all that entails, but where is it?  Tying Rhaegar's seeming enlightenments on the TPTWP prophesy may have actually brought on this looming disaster.  

To be honest Julia H, I am not sure about Ice or Nightfall or Dawn.  Had a conversation a while back where more than one  poster made a really good case for Longclaw actually being ancestral Ice.   At this point I am leaning that way, the only real difference being that Longclaw is a bastard sword and thereby smaller than both VS Ice and Dawn.   Does it matter?  Maybe.  Blackfyre is a bastard sword, too.  Now that @TheBlackSwan has straightened my timeline out the possibility that Targs participated in the 1st Battle for Dawn is not a thing I can readily discard.  Then there are names and titles.  Battle for Dawn.    Perhaps this sword was won there?  I swear my head spins with possibility some times.  

I think we found Truth in Fire and Blood.   By my reckoning our truly missing swords are Lamentation and Brightroar--I do expect Vigilance to appear fairly early in TWOW, but that's just a projection.  For now Vigilance is as lost as the other 2.  But I don't expect Brightroar or lamentation to reappear at all.   Sacred math and all that whacky stuff a sword geek will hang on to!  

I would expect Torrhen would have taken both his fighting sword and ceremonial VS Ice to meet Aegon and that Aegon took the fighting sword to add to his collection that became the iron Throne.    How can you not respect a king who truly acts in the best interest of his people?  We are not told of any VS being collected by Aegon.   Who knows?  He may have considered anyone who owned VS to be cool or at least having excellent taste in weaponry?   

Ice is a giant stumbling block in everything I think I have figured out.  What happened with VS Ice makes sense and causes the math to add right on up.  We have briefly discussed names of the swords.   If there is a sword name to really examine and wonder at it is ancestral Ice before all others.  

[Curled Finger]

48 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Dawn is similar in appearance to the ones in Daenerys' dream.  Ancient kings lined the hallway, cheering her on.  In their hands they held glowing swords.  Dawn is not unique.

 

 

Thanks Damsel, though I think something you may have meant to say is missing.   I'm not finding anything that says Dawn glows, only that it is the color of milkglass.   I did find Ned rubbing Ice to a dark glow?   

[Curled Finger]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is interesting.  I'm also of the impression that the COTF giving 100 pieces of obsidian to the Watch every year representing 100 Houses of the North each contributing a member to the original Night Watch.  The 9 iron swords could represent the strongest of these houses.  Although it also puts me in mind of the weirwood grove where Jon takes it's vows and the 9 weirwood trees.  Perhaps weirwood are key to these 9 houses.

As good a guess as any my friend--aren't YOU the one who took me to school on the weirwood identities of The Watchers on the Wall after all? My head is buzzing with all sorts of tie ins, but there is no doubt the weirwood are vital to everything here.  This is where the old gods live.   

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ice is a giant stumbling block in everything I think I have figured out.  What happened with VS Ice makes sense and causes the math to add right on up.  We have briefly discussed names of the swords.   If there is a sword name to really examine and wonder at it is ancestral Ice before all others.  

Well is there a sword made of ice as we see in the prologue of GoT.  That's the question.  If the COTF gave the last hero a weapon, their technology doesn't include the forging of metals.  Since we know obsidian is lethal to the WWs, I have to stick with the dawn sword.

The question is what happens to it after winter is defeated at Winterfell.  Who takes the sword to Starfall.  There have to be other people.

My guess is that people can only survive in the cave systems during the winter.  Just as we see with the Wildlings.  This puts a different spin on Old Nan's tale that a generation lived and died in the dark (of the caves).  So my guess is there were people in the caves at Winterfell and the sword was taken south by some of them.  

This isn't the only intercession of the COTF/Gseers.  The army of WWs is driven north and imprisoned by a curtain of light; the Wall is raised and the heart of darkness and soul of ice is imprisoned in the cyrpts of Winterfell.  A part of the population remains to guard against the return of the ancient enemy.   This could be the origin of these two houses.

So the threat is not solved, just forestalled.

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well is there a sword made of ice as we see in the prologue of GoT.  That's the question.  If the COTF gave the last hero a weapon, their technology doesn't include the forging of metals.  Since we know obsidian is lethal to the WWs, I have to stick with the dawn sword.

The question is what happens to it after winter is defeated at Winterfell.  Who takes the sword to Starfall.  There have to be other people.

My guess is that people can only survive in the cave systems during the winter.  Just as we see with the Wildlings.  This puts a different spin on Old Nan's tale that a generation lived and died in the dark (of the caves).  So my guess is there were people in the caves at Winterfell and the sword was taken south by some of them.  

This isn't the only intercession of the COTF/Gseers.  The army of WWs is driven north and imprisoned by a curtain of light; the Wall is raised and the heart of darkness and soul of ice is imprisoned in the cyrpts of Winterfell.  A part of the population remains to guard against the return of the ancient enemy.   This could be the origin of these two houses.

So the threat is not solved, just forestalled.

Yep, that's really it right there isn't it?  What sort of horror loving moron would name their House sword Ice in the North?  Name the replacement the same thing?   Maybe I'm wrong.  But that's all I've got for a name like Ice when the only other named sword in the area is Long Claw.   Long Claw makes sense on multiple levels.   It's not particularly scary and I don't equate House Stark with psy ops tactics.  Brutality against foes sure, decisiveness in conquering absolutely, but good behavior by intimidation in naming a weapon Ice?   Nah, this doesn't jive with me at all.  So what does the name Ice really mean to House Stark, to the North?   

Ah I like what you did with Gorne's underground railway system.   Very cool, my good Lady.  

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah I like what you did with Gorne's underground railway system.   Very cool, my good Lady. 

It's all this fresh ground coffee getting me going.  

So why go South?  They would be doing what Osha was doing when Bran first meets her.  Getting as far South as possible now that it's safe to leave the caves.

Why Starfall?  Maybe they followed a comet.  The Dawn Sword:

 neowise_ninigret2.jpg (576×720) (wpri.com)

 

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not finding anything that says Dawn glows, only that it is the color of milkglass.   I did find Ned rubbing Ice to a dark glow?   

Dawn:

Quote

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The swords of the ancient kings in Dany's dream:

Quote

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. 

The Other's blade:

Quote

No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

The word glow isn't used anywhere. Dawn is alive with light, the Other's blade is alive with moonlight, has a faint blue shimmer and a ghost light. The dream swords were of pale fire, so we can suppose they may have let out light. I looked up "pale fire", and I came to this quote by Shakespeare:

“The moon's an arrant thief, And her pale fire she snatches from the sun.”

So the pale fire can be reference to the moonlight and that ties the swords of Dany's ancient kings directly to the swords of the Others. 

I subscribe to the theory which says the ancient kings in Dany's dream are the emperors of the Great Empire of the Dawn, so no surprise if a sword with this name is indeed tied to them.

That does not make Dawn any less unique in the contemporary world.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

But that's all I've got for a name like Ice when the only other named sword in the area is Long Claw.   Long Claw makes sense on multiple levels.

I think the AA story and the forging of their version of Lightbringer is a parallel development.  Melisandre is certainly a stand out for a Nissa Nissa substitute if Jon ever figures it out.  I wonder if that's why Aemon told him to consult the Jade Compendium.  LOL

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

It's all this fresh ground coffee getting me going.  

So why go South?  They would be doing what Osha was doing when Bran first meets her.  Getting as far South as possible now that it's safe to leave the caves.

Why Starfall?  Maybe they followed a comet.  The Dawn Sword:

 neowise_ninigret2.jpg (576×720) (wpri.com)

 

Hrm, that's quite interesting following a falling star after TLN.  I just reckoned the surviving heroes returned home with their weapons as I think that even though the Battle for Dawn was fought in the North it was the world's fight.  Though I admit this new timeline has me thinking all sorts of new thoughts right along the lines you put forth above.