Fitting Dawn in with House Stark

[Curled Finger]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Hello Wizz!

I'm thinking about the story of the Last Hero and I'm still not sure what intercession means and how the COTF/GSeers are involved.  But it seems to me that Wall as a dam for ice magic among other things fits the bill.  Dams contain and release their contents and at the moment I think the Wall is regulating the seasons.  This would make sense as the magical cause of the unnatural seasons.

A magic that is maintained by GSeers (giants in the earth) and if that power is failing then only light can push back the darkness.

I do think the Wall and the Watch are the primary responsibility of the Starks.  They own the Wall.  So metaphorically and literally the Wall could be the sword Ice.

The words of the NW certainly open the Black Gate, a face hung on the Wall.  I think there is a lot about the Wall that hasn't been revealed yet. 

I think the intercession had to be a song or songs that affected the environment.  Perhaps there was a relentless blizzard that left no safe surface for fighting--something like that.  maybe the COTF couldn't make the sun shine or darkness disappear, but they could create earthquakes or even calm to a storm I would imagine? Perhaps the song worked like Crannogmen magic where structures can disappear.  

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Gerold Darkstar is the right age and is a knight.   Whether he is worthy to wield Dawn remains to be seen. 

I think Darkstar is a wicked knight and his soul isn't pue enough for Dawn to become alive with light.  We still don't know House Daynes's word, but I'm going with:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"Seven save His Grace. Long may he reign." The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble!"

 

 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think the intercession had to be a song or songs that affected the environment.  Perhaps there was a relentless blizzard that left no safe surface for fighting--something like that.  maybe the COTF couldn't make the sun shine or darkness disappear, but they could create earthquakes or even calm to a storm I would imagine? Perhaps the song worked like Crannogmen magic where structures can disappear.  

At first I thought he had to battle in a trial by champion and was given an obsidian sword which he used to vanquish winter. Claiming the sword of the Great Other, a sword of ice.  Making the Last Hero the first King of Winter.  We may have seen a re-enactment of that fight with Waymar Royce in the Prologue of GoT.

Songs are a part of magic.  We see that with Melisandre.

As for the first long night; Martin tends to recycle and refine themes and I think this is as close as we are going to get for an explanation at the moment (hat tip to Phylum of Alexandria):

Quote

 

“For millennia beyond counting they have dwelled in tranquility and peace beneath the seas of this world. They are a slow, thoughtful, philosophic race, and they lived side by side in the billions, each linked with all the others, each an individual and each a part of the great racial whole. In a sense they were deathless, for all shared the experiences of each, and the death of one was as nothing. Experiences were few in the unchanging sea, however. For the most part their long lives are given over to abstract thought, to philosophy, to strange green dreams that neither you nor I can truly comprehend. They are silent musicians, one might say. Together they have woven great symphonies of dreams, and those songs go on and on.

“Before humanity came to Namor, they had had no real enemies for millions of years. Yet that had not always been the case. In the primordial beginnings of this wet world, the oceans teemed with creatures who relished the taste of the dreamers as much as you do. Even then, the race understood genetics, understood evolution. With their vast web of interwoven minds, they were able to manipulate the very stuff of life itself, more skillfully than any genetic engineers. And so they evolved their guardians, formidable predators with a biological imperative to protect those you call mud-pots. These were your men-of-war. From that time to this they guarded the beds, while the dreamers went back to their symphony of thought.

“Then you came, from Aquarius and Old Poseidon. Indeed you did. Lost in the reverie, the dreamers hardly noticed for many years, while you farmed and fished and discovered the taste of mud-pots. You must consider the shock you gave them, Lords Guardian. Each time you plunged one of them into boiling water, all of them shared the sensations. To the dreamers, it seemed as though some terrible new predator had evolved upon the landmass, a place of little interest to them. They had no inkling that you might be sentient, since they could no more conceive of a non-telepathic sentience than you could conceive of one blind, deaf, immobile, and edible. To them, things that moved and manipulated and ate flesh were animals, and could be nothing else.

“The rest you know, or can surmise. The dreamers are a slow people lost in their vast songs, and they were slow to respond. First they simply ignored you, in the belief that the ecosystem itself would shortly check your ravages. This did not appear to happen. To them it seemed you had no natural enemies. You bred and expanded constantly, and many thousands of minds fell silent. Finally they returned to the ancient, almost-forgotten ways of their dim past, and woke to protect themselves. They sped up the reproduction of their guardians until the seas above their beds teemed with their protectors, but the creatures that had once sufficed admirably against other enemies proved to be no match for you. Finally they were driven to new measures. Their minds broke off the great symphony and ranged out, and they sensed and understood. At last they began to fashion new guardians, guardians formidable enough to protect them against this great new nemesis. Thus it went."

 

Dreamsongs of Ice and Fire Pt 4: A Secret Sci-Fi? - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones (westeros.org)

 

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yah his sword is a bit of a mystery to me.  Catelyn describes it as having a big square cut ruby in it's hilt and the ruby on Mance's manacle is also a large square cut ruby.  So I have no doubt it's been glamored.  But have we ever seen it out of the hilt besides when Sam asks to see it and when Rattleshirt is burned?  Because I'm wondering if this sword has been given to Stannis by Melisandre and I wonder if it might be valyrian steel.  Or we just haven't seen the naked blade or the blade without a glamor.

Egads that's an interesting prospect.  That's all I need, another VS sword!  

[Julia H.]

44 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am batting ideas about Julia H, just paraphrasing my interpretation of the things you previously wrote.  But something caused The Others to awaken, reactivate, zone in, whatever they are doing.  Why not the death of the last SOTM?  We saw what happened when Winterfell had no Stark in residence--very much against their own saying.  But the Dayne era has not yet ended.  We still have 3 living Daynes that we can name:  Edric, Gerold and Allyria.   Gerold Darkstar is the right age and is a knight.   Whether he is worthy to wield Dawn remains to be seen.   I'vve posted the quotes straight from the World book in the OP regarding what at least the Maester considers the deal with wielding Dawn--got to be a knight of the house.  Who knows if that's accurate or not--it's just there and the only reference I actually have.  The quote I used is prefaced by the Maester mentioning that the Corbrays inherit Lady Forlorn in contrast to how Dawn is er, possessed.  Your bit about Darkstar and the potential corruption of Dawn is very interesting.  More than me wonder if this is what happens when there is only a Sword of the Evening.  Perhaps we will learn exactly this if TWOW is ever published!  But it really is a concerning thought if Dawn is the key instead of a simple weapon.  Lots to think about in this.  Do you think another wielder--a true hero--could restore Dawn to its real purpose? 

I am also just wondering about things. Maybe the death of the last SOTM caused the reactivation of the Others, but there must have been some special circumstance because other knights with this title died before. The fact that this one was slain? Slain by a Stark? By the Stark, the head of the House? Maybe, in accordance with an ancient pact, Dawn was not supposed to be used against a Stark? Something else? The Others probably have some agenda of their own though, which makes me think perhaps they were simply waiting for this time to come.  

Sure, House Dayne is not over yet, but can they still provide a Sword of the Morning? More importantly, the question is, if the era of the daylight ushered in by the Dayne Last Hero has indeed ended, and perhaps a new Last Hero is needed, are the Daynes still relevant? The Sword of the Morning might be a guardian of the light, obligatorily the descendant of the Last Hero, but perhaps the future Swords of the Morning will be the descendants of the new hero bringing the new Dawn.

How do magical swords in legends end up in places from which only a new hero can retrieve them? Where have they been before? What if we can witness the beginning of such a story? Ned is not a villain, so he returns the sword to Starfall, but what if Dawn is later stolen and corrupted by a villain, and a true hero finds it and, yes, as you say, restores it to its original purpose? 

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I am also just wondering about things. Maybe the death of the last SOTM caused the reactivation of the Others, but there must have been some special circumstance because other knights with this title died before. The fact that this one was slain? Slain by a Stark? By the Stark, the head of the House? Maybe, in accordance with an ancient pact, Dawn was not supposed to be used against a Stark? Something else? The Others probably have some agenda of their own though, which makes me think perhaps they were simply waiting for this time to come.  

Sure, House Dayne is not over yet, but can they still provide a Sword of the Morning? More importantly, the question is, if the era of the daylight ushered in by the Dayne Last Hero has indeed ended, and perhaps a new Last Hero is needed, are the Daynes still relevant? The Sword of the Morning might be a guardian of the light, obligatorily the descendant of the Last Hero, but perhaps the future Swords of the Morning will be the descendants of the new hero bringing the new Dawn.

How do magical swords in legends end up in places from which only a new hero can retrieve them? Where have they been before? What if we can witness the beginning of such a story? Ned is not a villain, so he returns the sword to Starfall, but what if Dawn is later stolen and corrupted by a villain, and a true hero finds it and, yes, as you say, restores it to its original purpose? 

Well SOMETHING caused The Others to stir all we can do is take a stab at the reason.   The story is Ned killed Arthur Dayne, but it was really Howland Reed, wasn't it?  Gads how do Crannongmen fit into all this too!   For all the glory in the story, Ned's kids know nothing of this fight.  Curious.  Yah The Pact is a great place to go since we know none of the actual terms of the agreement beyond the lands the COTF were conceded to.   I don't know if you've even given any study to the Nights Watch and its origins.  We read this giant tale and there is always something else to be interested in.  The idea that House Stark was established by a Dayne bastard is what came from my study.  This Pact gives the COTF very little and in return for what?  I reckon TLN happened because of some transgression of this Pact.   The 1st Men failed to remember or something.  The origins of the NW, which couldn't be part of the pact literally, are most interesting.  There was a time even kings, like our only known Sword of the Evening Vorian Dayne, were sent to the Wall in golden fetters.   The NW was once the place to be.   They had nearly 10,000 men when Aegon made his conquest of Westeros.  I can't help but tie the NW and Wall to an agreement if not The Pact.  So TLH goes on his merry way, all his companions, his dog and even his horse die then his sword breaks and lo and behold here are the COTF to save him?  Why would they?  Maybe The Others threaten them and their establishments too?  Maybe TLH was a lot like our current LC and told them the things they needed to hear--I will work with you, please work with me--let's join forces and get these assholes outta here.  They gave him dragon glass and probably dragon steel.  He had to replenish his band of companions so the battle didn't take off right then and there.  So he makes initial contact with the COTF, who supply agreement and weapons and...time to regroup?  Those men at the Battle for Dawn were the very 1st members of what became the NW.  Agreements and weapons indeed.   Perhaps TLH agreed to live with the COTF in peace and harmony as opposed to say leaving them be in wastelands?   

It is a long held tradition for 1st Men families to send their lesser sons and money and supplies to the Wall.   Even House Royce sent their son and I think Benjen was always destined to go to the NW as part of that tradition.  The NW wasn't always an outlying prison.  The NW job is to defend the people of Westeros from The Others.  People knew the Others would return some day and someone somewhere knows why.  My money is on freaking Leaf for that intel.  Why go on about the NW?   I think it speaks to your own idea about the SOTM being a guardian of the light--obligatory (read promised or agreed to) descendant of TLH or a new TLH exactly.  There are promises we know nothing about, but there are hints.  This makes me wonder if the SOTM didn't get some sort of special knowledge and training for being a guardian of the light.   Do you need the knowledge to be able to use Dawn to it's intended purpose?   Is it like a sorting hat that calls its wielder?   I do think the VS swords work like that for all it's worth.    

[Julia H.]

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Well SOMETHING caused The Others to stir all we can do is take a stab at the reason.   The story is Ned killed Arthur Dayne, but it was really Howland Reed, wasn't it?  Gads how do Crannongmen fit into all this too!   For all the glory in the story, Ned's kids know nothing of this fight.  Curious.  Yah The Pact is a great place to go since we know none of the actual terms of the agreement beyond the lands the COTF were conceded to.   I don't know if you've even given any study to the Nights Watch and its origins.  We read this giant tale and there is always something else to be interested in.  The idea that House Stark was established by a Dayne bastard is what came from my study.  This Pact gives the COTF very little and in return for what?  I reckon TLN happened because of some transgression of this Pact.   The 1st Men failed to remember or something.  The origins of the NW, which couldn't be part of the pact literally, are most interesting.  There was a time even kings, like our only known Sword of the Evening Vorian Dayne, were sent to the Wall in golden fetters.   The NW was once the place to be.   They had nearly 10,000 men when Aegon made his conquest of Westeros.  I can't help but tie the NW and Wall to an agreement if not The Pact.  So TLH goes on his merry way, all his companions, his dog and even his horse die then his sword breaks and lo and behold here are the COTF to save him?  Why would they?  Maybe The Others threaten them and their establishments too?  Maybe TLH was a lot like our current LC and told them the things they needed to hear--I will work with you, please work with me--let's join forces and get these assholes outta here.  They gave him dragon glass and probably dragon steel.  He had to replenish his band of companions so the battle didn't take off right then and there.  So he makes initial contact with the COTF, who supply agreement and weapons and...time to regroup?  Those men at the Battle for Dawn were the very 1st members of what became the NW.  Agreements and weapons indeed.   Perhaps TLH agreed to live with the COTF in peace and harmony as opposed to say leaving them be in wastelands?   

It is a long held tradition for 1st Men families to send their lesser sons and money and supplies to the Wall.   Even House Royce sent their son and I think Benjen was always destined to go to the NW as part of that tradition.  The NW wasn't always an outlying prison.  The NW job is to defend the people of Westeros from The Others.  People knew the Others would return some day and someone somewhere knows why.  My money is on freaking Leaf for that intel.  Why go on about the NW?   I think it speaks to your own idea about the SOTM being a guardian of the light--obligatory (read promised or agreed to) descendant of TLH or a new TLH exactly.  There are promises we know nothing about, but there are hints.  This makes me wonder if the SOTM didn't get some sort of special knowledge and training for being a guardian of the light.   Do you need the knowledge to be able to use Dawn to it's intended purpose?   Is it like a sorting hat that calls its wielder?   I do think the VS swords work like that for all it's worth.    

Did Howland Reed kill Arthur? The wording is so vague... Arthur would have killed Ned if it hadn't been for Howland. It does not necessarily mean that Howland killed Arthur for Ned, it could be as simple as giving Ned some special magical protection beforehand, and Ned knew that without that he would not have had a chance against Arthur. But since we don't know the details, all sorts of scenarios are possible.

The history of the NW is one of my favourite topics. I agree that it wasn't always a colony of prisoners but a place of honour for a son of a noble family. The NW is often contrasted with the Kingsguard, black versus white, North versus South, but the Kingsguard is a recent institution (somewhat modeled on the NW, IIRC). Perhaps there was an original Southern equivalent of the NW. The NW in the North guarding the Wall, with a Stark as its Lord Commander, and the Sword of the Morning in the South, a Dayne guarding Dawn. Was it always just one person or could it be formerly an organization of several swords of the morning, with a Dayne as its leader (as the Sword of the Morning)? After all, each member of the NW is the sword in the darkness. Perhaps originally the swords of the morning were to guard the regained light and the realms of men while the light lasted, and the NW members were to be in their posts when the (Long) Night started again. "Night gathers and now my watch begins..." 

But the old arrangement became forgotten. In the South, the First Men were replaced by newcomers, and amidst the ups and downs of history, with young warriors tempted by alternative occupations, the order of the swords of the morning was reduced to a single knight of House Dayne, while in the more isolated North, the NW survived, though its purpose became forgotten and its old prestige lost. If it is so, do the Daynes remember? 

[TheBlackSwan]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hello Wizz!

I'm thinking about the story of the Last Hero and I'm still not sure what intercession means and how the COTF/GSeers are involved.  But it seems to me that Wall as a dam for ice magic among other things fits the bill.  Dams contain and release their contents and at the moment I think the Wall is regulating the seasons.  This would make sense as the magical cause of the unnatural seasons.

A magic that is maintained by GSeers (giants in the earth) and if that power is failing then only light can push back the darkness.

I do think the Wall and the Watch are the primary responsibility of the Starks.  They own the Wall.  So metaphorically and literally the Wall could be the sword Ice.

The words of the NW certainly open the Black Gate, a face hung on the Wall.  I think there is a lot about the Wall that hasn't been revealed yet. 

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think the intercession had to be a song or songs that affected the environment.  Perhaps there was a relentless blizzard that left no safe surface for fighting--something like that.  maybe the COTF couldn't make the sun shine or darkness disappear, but they could create earthquakes or even calm to a storm I would imagine? Perhaps the song worked like Crannogmen magic where structures can disappear.  

I think Alabastur has a great explanation

 

The Children are also call "Those who sing the song of earth", their magic are songs, so they are those who knows the magic of earth, of nature. Martin said the irregularity of the seasons is magical and we know that their are different kind of magic like water (Rhoynar), fire (Melisandre), ice (the Others). One of the biggest change in the seasons would be winter and we can associate winter with ice and ice magic with the Others. The Children made the Others and the Others are link to winter. When the Others grew stronger, so did winter causing an imbalance in the forces of nature, causing the Long Night.

A hero convinced the Singers to save the world and to do that, they made a new song to counter the song of Ice and bring balance in the forces of nature: the song of Fire.

The Singers taught the Valyrians their arts, how to tame dragons forged a sword infuse with fire magic (Lightbringer/Dragonsteel/Valyriansteel). The Dragonlords and their dragons are the song of Fire, they are link to summer.

Quote

The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.
The Hedge Knight

Martin confirmed that Valyria existed during the Long Night and had hardly begun to rise. Make sense, they were taught magic at the end of the Long Night, they would rise soon after.

[Curled Finger]

49 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Martin confirmed that Valyria existed during the Long Night and had hardly begun to rise. Make sense, they were taught magic at the end of the Long Night, they would rise soon after.

Whoa!  That doesn't match anything on the Timelines--can you give me a link to the statement?   This could turn everything upside down.   By my best reckoning the most recently TLN would have happened is 6000 years ago.  The timelines and I admit I haven't got a new one at all, all say Valyria was established 5000 years back.   I realize we play with estimations, but this is pretty big news to me.  1000 years is a lot of bad guessing.  

[TheBlackSwan]

This book takes place hundreds of years ago and Westeros seems pretty different than in Thrones. I wonder, since HBO’s prequel pilot takes place 10,000 years before Game of Thrones, will that world even be recognizable to fans as Westeros since there’s such a huge time jump?
“10,000 years” is mentioned in the novels. But you also have places where maesters say, “No, no, it wasn’t 10,000, it was 5,000.” Again, I’m trying to reflect real-life things that a lot of high fantasy doesn’t reflect. In the Bible, it has people living for hundreds of years and then people added up how long each lived and used that to figure out when events took place. Really? I don’t think so. Now we’re getting more realistic dating now from carbon dating and archeology. But Westeros doesn’t have that. They’re still in the stage of “my grandfather told me and his grandfather told him.” So I think it’s closer to 5,000 years. But you’re right. Westeros is a very different place. There’s no King’s Landing. There’s no Iron Throne. There are no Targaryens — Valyria has hardly begun to rise yet with its dragons and the great empire that it built.

https://ew.com/author-interviews/2018/11/19/george-rr-martin-interview/

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Did Howland Reed kill Arthur? The wording is so vague... Arthur would have killed Ned if it hadn't been for Howland. It does not necessarily mean that Howland killed Arthur for Ned, it could be as simple as giving Ned some special magical protection beforehand, and Ned knew that without that he would not have had a chance against Arthur. But since we don't know the details, all sorts of scenarios are possible.

The history of the NW is one of my favourite topics. I agree that it wasn't always a colony of prisoners but a place of honour for a son of a noble family. The NW is often contrasted with the Kingsguard, black versus white, North versus South, but the Kingsguard is a recent institution (somewhat modeled on the NW, IIRC). Perhaps there was an original Southern equivalent of the NW. The NW in the North guarding the Wall, with a Stark as its Lord Commander, and the Sword of the Morning in the South, a Dayne guarding Dawn. Was it always just one person or could it be formerly an organization of several swords of the morning, with a Dayne as its leader (as the Sword of the Morning)? After all, each member of the NW is the sword in the darkness. Perhaps originally the swords of the morning were to guard the regained light and the realms of men while the light lasted, and the NW members were to be in their posts when the (Long) Night started again. "Night gathers and now my watch begins..." 

But the old arrangement became forgotten. In the South, the First Men were replaced by newcomers, and amidst the ups and downs of history, with young warriors tempted by alternative occupations, the order of the swords of the morning was reduced to a single knight of House Dayne, while in the more isolated North, the NW survived, though its purpose became forgotten and its old prestige lost. If it is so, do the Daynes remember? 

You know I wanted to take it back after I posted, but I love the way you can correct a person without getting your claws sharp and I really appreciate that.   I just remember Ned not wanting to tell his children the story and Bran's shock at some of the things Jojen and Meera tell him.  Before the show aired, we had only ideas about what happened at TOJ, the best among them (imho) being a spell.   So yah, I apologize for misremembering there.  

I went down a rabbit hole for probably 6 months on the history of the NW and was utterly stricken by how far the order had fallen.  There are so many little creep holes in that bit of history it blows my mind more people don't just drop their jaws at it.  I was jabbering earlier about the Andals bringing the concept of knighthood but the history tells us the brothers were once known as the Black Knights of the Wall--how cool is that, really!  Battle Island came up much earlier in the conversation I think with no history at all on that bit of architecture perhaps that was where guardians of the south resided?  I want you to work on the words for the Days (Lights?) Watch brothers--very cool.

Yah that's what bugs me most--we aren't stupid.   There is obviously some arrangement going on here.  We have the Pact of the 1st Men, even that silly Pact of Ice and Fire and no satisfactory end to TLN despite words like intercession and drove back telling this tale.  Of course there was some sort of agreement made--so where is the story on this?  I wasn't being flippant when I said Leaf has to know.  If not her then one of the COTF has to tell it.  Humans cannot regain what they will lose if they don't understand what the fight is for and how to battle.   This right here is very interesting in your wondering if the Dayne's remember.  Even something as small as what Dawn was named for or even what SOTM really means or demands?   Something.  Between one of the most ancient houses in the land and Wildlings of the Far North and COTF and Bran's visions, someone has to get something on this catastrophe waiting to happen.   

[Curled Finger]

15 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

This book takes place hundreds of years ago and Westeros seems pretty different than in Thrones. I wonder, since HBO’s prequel pilot takes place 10,000 years before Game of Thrones, will that world even be recognizable to fans as Westeros since there’s such a huge time jump?
“10,000 years” is mentioned in the novels. But you also have places where maesters say, “No, no, it wasn’t 10,000, it was 5,000.” Again, I’m trying to reflect real-life things that a lot of high fantasy doesn’t reflect. In the Bible, it has people living for hundreds of years and then people added up how long each lived and used that to figure out when events took place. Really? I don’t think so. Now we’re getting more realistic dating now from carbon dating and archeology. But Westeros doesn’t have that. They’re still in the stage of “my grandfather told me and his grandfather told him.” So I think it’s closer to 5,000 years. But you’re right. Westeros is a very different place. There’s no King’s Landing. There’s no Iron Throne. There are no Targaryens — Valyria has hardly begun to rise yet with its dragons and the great empire that it built.

https://ew.com/author-interviews/2018/11/19/george-rr-martin-interview/

Thank you so much for digging up the quote and allowing me to read it with my own eyes.   It's Martinspeak no doubt.  I'm pulling the piece apart trying to figure out exactly what he's saying and it seems to be The Valyrians not really Valyria were around during TLN.   (Makes TPTWP prophecy a lot easier to understand now.)  This could mean nothing other than they were still shepherds learning magic during TLN or it could mean there were dragon riding shepherds during TLN or it could even mean there were dragon riding Valyrian Steel making shepherds running around during TLN.  He says "hardly begun to rise yet with its dragons..."   I'm not sure if I love or hate this important quote.   

In this light it really is possible that Valyria learned how to make VS or should I say dragonsteel in close proximity to TLN.  They may have traveled to Westeros--wonder if their Prince That Was Promised was the guy who came over?  Did they have interactions with the COTF--sure why not?  Did the COTF ask them for help in making their dragon glass weapons?  I hate that the timelines are all screwed up now but I'm sure enjoying the vast possibility in this new light. 

  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 1/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

I submit our Last Hero was the 1^st Sword of the Morning and that Dawn gained her name in the events ending The Long Night.   Yes, that would make House Stark a cadet branch of House Dayne, sort of, way way back.  Long enough to forget the blood tie at any rate. 

The Starks and the Daynes have very different physical appearances.  They are not even close.  The nearest in terms of physical characteristics to the Daynes are the Valyrian families, Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar.  The Starks are of a different lineage altogether.  

I think Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are two very different people.  To me, Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Bran is the Last Hero.  Their stories just fit the tale very well. 

A Dayne will carry Dawn.  I am thinking it will be young Ned who will do so.  The person does not have to be someone important.  He just has one job to do.  Which is fight the Others. 

The Lightbringer are Dany's three dragons.  Or even Dany herself.  She has always and will be the third.  Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.  The two died and she took their place as the heir to Westeros.  Drogo and Rhaego died, and she will take their place as the leader of the Dothraki. 

[TheBlackSwan]

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Did the COTF ask them for help in making their dragon glass weapons?  .

At that time, they had steel. Against the Others, obsidian is kinda nice since it's infuse with fire magic, that's why the Valyrians call it "frozen fire" and it's known as "dragonglass" because dragon = fire. But obsidian is too brittle, that's why the Last Hero and the Children share their knowledge and infuse steel with fire magic to make dragonsteel. We've seen what dragonglass does on an Other and we can guess that dragonsteel would do the same and we know one sword that melt can melt a monster: Lightbringer. The Last Hero and the dragonsteel sword = Azor Ahai and Lightbringer.
The Children would have taught them how to craft obsidian, how to contact people through long distance and in their dreams like a greenseer => candleglass.
 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Starks and the Daynes have very different physical appearances.  They are not even close.  The nearest in terms of physical characteristics to the Daynes are the Valyrian families, Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar.  The Starks are of a different lineage altogether.  

I think Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are two very different people.  To me, Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Bran is the Last Hero.  Their stories just fit the tale very well. 

A Dayne will carry Dawn.  I am thinking it will be young Ned who will do so.  The person does not have to be someone important.  He just has one job to do.  Which is fight the Others. 

The Lightbringer are Dany's three dragons.  Or even Dany herself.  She has always and will be the third.  Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.  The two died and she took their place as the heir to Westeros.  Drogo and Rhaego died, and she will take their place as the leader of the Dothraki. 

Dude! Welcome!  Agreed the Starks don't look like the Daynes, but only 1 of the Stark kids in the story looks like a Stark.  Not even close.  You probably have a point there on characteristics, but we don't even know what color hair Arthur dayne had.  The only thing I actually remember is Ashara's dancing purple eyes--but there must be a description of Edric and Darkstar has silver stripes in his dark hair?   Funny, Tyrion Lannister has that too.  I agree they are different lineages, but that doesn't mean the Daynes didn't start House Stark thousands of years ago.   To be honest Bud, I'm not married to the idea--it is the only thing I could come up with that I was satisfied with.   I am totally open to a better idea, but I gotta understand this relationship.  

I'm divided on how many of the heroes will be represented.  There are what 7 or 9 Heroes of The Last Night around the world right?  Aren't Azor Ahai and The Prince That was Promised the same person?   I suspect they may have all been companions and we are only missing names of a few.  But I do believe they all had magic swords at the time and that this event concluded in the North of Westeros.  Reincarnations at least in part are to be expected so my breakdown expectation was/is:  TLH Bran  TPTWP Dany AA:  Jon--oh come on Man, he's had the dream--he has the sword there!  Again, I'm not married to any of it--it's just a fun thing to play with.  Do you think we will have any satisfaction from our author in any of it? 

I would prefer Edric to wield Dawn, but he's just a little kid.  I suppose he could grow since we last saw him, but Dawn is a greatsword and that's an awful lot of magic sword for an inexperienced maybe even small person.  I like that you have a definite vision for Dawn,   Too many folks just don't see it.  

Yah, we've been over other possibilities for Lightbringer and I don't think you are wrong, only narrow.  I think a lot of stars will have to align in harmony including cyclic events and dispositions--there is a of room for many types of Lightbringer.  Dragons will have a crucial part to play in this battle.  Dany better become the Khaleesi of them all--Westeros is going to need all the help it can get and those Dothraki don't mess around.  

 

 

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

At that time, they had steel. Against the Others, obsidian is kinda nice since it's infuse with fire magic, that's why the Valyrians call it "frozen fire" and it's known as "dragonglass" because dragon = fire. But obsidian is too brittle,

It's value could be the frozen fire, the fact that brilliant light can be drawn from it, a fire that can't be put out by the cold.  Light is an effective weapon against wights and white walkers = hence, the sword in the darkness, the fire that burns against the cold.  Light is an effective shield.  It's not just swords but obsidian spear tips, arrowheads and daggers.

I'm going to speculate wildly here and say the stone from the heart of a falling star is actually a diamond and certain stones have magic properties.  We see a bit of that with Mel's rubies one of which can be found in the hilt of Stannis' sword.  

Hold on... wild guess #2 - the dawn sword has a white star/diamond in it's hilt just like the constellation of the same name

Yup...#3 - the diamond makes the white sword as hard as a diamond and makes the sword alive with light

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

At that time, they had steel. Against the Others, obsidian is kinda nice since it's infuse with fire magic, that's why the Valyrians call it "frozen fire" and it's known as "dragonglass" because dragon = fire. But obsidian is too brittle, that's why the Last Hero and the Children share their knowledge and infuse steel with fire magic to make dragonsteel. We've seen what dragonglass does on an Other and we can guess that dragonsteel would do the same and we know one sword that melt can melt a monster: Lightbringer. The Last Hero and the dragonsteel sword = Azor Ahai and Lightbringer.
The Children would have taught them how to craft obsidian, how to contact people through long distance and in their dreams like a greenseer => candleglass.
 

Much easier to swallow now that my time line is straighten out.  I had a chance to go back over your posts here and you make a really nice argument for the dragonsteel being made at this time.   I love it!   

Though I do think obsidian is an ingredient--maybe just dust, but it seems this is the material that hurts those pesky Others.    

[Egged]

Quote

The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn

lol so it's a lightsaber.

[LynnS]

The words of House Stark are something of a puzzle.  "Winter is coming."  I would add "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell".  I put them together as: There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because winter is coming.  Why?

And why are Starks called the kings of winter?  Do they only rule during the winter?  In the Night King story, the Stark in Winterfell isn't called the king of winter.   They seemed to only be called kings of winter when they die and are sealed in the crypts with iron to prevent their ghosts from rising.

But we do have the 13th lord commander referred to as ruling the night.  Winter and the long night are interchangeable terms and he could be called the Night King of Winter who allied himself with the Others.  Something that is clearly not supposed to happen.  The Starks in Winterfell seem to be established to make sure that doesn't happen.  So it seems there is always a danger that this could happen again.

The Daynes of old were also kings.  So we have day kings and night kings.  Perhaps it is the task of the Daynes to slay the night king, should the Starks in Winterfell fail.

If the dawn sword was the weapon given to the last hero and he defeated the Others in a trial by champion; he would claim the sword of the Winter becoming the King of Winter.  The enemy sword would be the sword Ice.  I suspect it is a cursed object containing the soul of ice; something that continues to exist and present a danger to it's keepers.

So the question is what is kept hidden in the crypts and why is Jon's soul drawn to the frozen hell reserved for Starks?

So now we have no sword of the morning and no Stark in Winterfell.  All the fail safes are gone.  Ned dreams of the coming Others just before he is killed:

"A blood streaked sky and a storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death."

All winter needs now is a King.

The only thing left standing is the Wall, the Watch and Bran and whomever can become the warrior of light and claim the dawn sword.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

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