George R. R. Martin on The Unsullied

[astarkchoice]

11 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

They are the best soldiers in the world. The Dothraki khalasars on their own are already very, very strong and would destroy any Westerosi force the Lannisters could gather. But since Dany wants to avoid sacking the western cities, which belongs to her anyway, the inclusion of the Unsullied brings that professionalism, calm, order, organization, and discipline to her military. 

I think itd been covered already that while the dothraki could be useful their many weaknesses vs real horse nomads mean theyd need to be all  amazing high fantasy level marksmen, riders and swordsmen and coordinated like ants to be effective (or not afraid to take huge casulties for a win)

 

Besides vs ANY force the lannisters could gather? Thats the unlimited gold lannisters in a world awash with merc group lannisters no?

[The Commentator]

The Unsullied will increase their numbers. The ones they will train later are not going to be as good as the originals but more than good enough to fight and humiliate the Westerosi if Dany were to command it. A combined army of Unsullied, Dothraki, Sellswords, and the remainder of Vic’s crew will be unstoppable.  

[Aldarion]

26 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

The Unsullied will increase their numbers. The ones they will train later are not going to be as good as the originals but more than good enough to fight and humiliate the Westerosi if Dany were to command it. A combined army of Unsullied, Dothraki, Sellswords, and the remainder of Vic’s crew will be unstoppable.  

...unless they run across an actual Westerosi army.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, The Commentator said:

The Unsullied will increase their numbers. The ones they will train later are not going to be as good as the originals but more than good enough to fight and humiliate the Westerosi if Dany were to command it. A combined army of Unsullied, Dothraki, Sellswords, and the remainder of Vic’s crew will be unstoppable.  

Erm no astapor is history....there wont be any more unsullied ever again! 

Edited January 10 by astarkchoice

[The Commentator]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:19 PM, Aldarion said:

...unless they run across an actual Westerosi army.

The Westerosi army will run for the nearest castle and hide. Most will die before they can get behind the walls. The Dothraki arrows will send many to their deaths. Westeros is not made up of warriors. While there is a small warrior class of varying skills the majority are unskilled peasants.  

[Aldarion]

18 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

The Westerosi army will run for the nearest castle and hide. Most will die before they can get behind the walls. The Dothraki arrows will send many to their deaths. Westeros is not made up of warriors. While there is a small warrior class of varying skills the majority are unskilled peasants.  

Mr. Chatbox 793451, I will reply to you after you have read this, because what you have written has absolutely nothing to do with what we see in the books:

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-1-organization-and-manpower/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-2-tactics/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-3-weapons-and-equipment/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-4-conclusions-and-implications/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/proof-that-westerosi-armies-are-professionals/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/tactical-overview-the-unsullied/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/tactical-overview-dothraki/

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, The Commentator said:

The Westerosi army will run for the nearest castle and hide. 

Which is exactly how to beat them, because Dumbthraki have zero siege engines, and will starve in a siege lasting any length of time because it is Winter and local supplies are depleted, and Daenerys will not be able to magically ship enough food over.

4 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Most will die before they can get behind the walls

More like most of the Dothrakidiots will die before they get close since their best strategy is to charge right at the enemy and they have no armour. And they are invading a wartorn, short on food continent in Winter with the terrain against them.

[Craving Peaches]

Dothraki lose to eunuch knock-off Spartans just because basic tactics, so unless they get major feats added (retconned) in the next book no one should really take them seriously. They scale way below IRL Mongols who scale below rough IRL equivalent of Westerosi armies as is continuously and eloquently pointed out by Aldarion.

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

IRL Mongols who scale below rough IRL equivalent of Westerosi armies

To be fair to Genghis Khan and his sons, the White Horde really is only a shadow of the Great Horde that can't, you know, bring its various siege engineers and other support units all the way to Hungary with 13th century travel conditions. I'll give the Great Horde a good chance against Poland and Hungary.

As for the White Horde and the Blue Horde, I'll leave that to Aldarion.

[astarkchoice]

13 hours ago, The Commentator said:

The Westerosi army will run for the nearest castle and hide. Most will die before they can get behind the walls. The Dothraki arrows will send many to their deaths. Westeros is not made up of warriors. While there is a small warrior class of varying skills the majority are unskilled peasants.  

Erm

 

You do remmber the dornish have been fighting with similar tactics to the dothraki for centuries right? The westerosi have seen their tactics

On their small sand steeds they have reportedly  recurve bows and swords but also  armour, small shields, spears, a mix of heavy cavalry and various foot too.......they are actualy more like the hun/mongols militarywise than the dothraki 

 

Now the dornish have held their own vs all other westerosi  outside of dorne but.... their horse cavalry  have all those other factors to help them.

Edited January 12 by astarkchoice

[Aldarion]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Erm

 

You do remmber the dornish have been fighting with similar tactics to the dothraki for centuries right? The westerosi have seen their tactics

On their small sand steeds they have reportedly  recurve bows and swords but also  armour, small shields, spears, a mix of heavy cavalry and various foot too.......they are actualy more like the hun/mongols militarywise than the dothraki 

 

Now the dornish have held their own vs all other westerosi  outside of dorne but.... their horse cavalry  have all those other factors to help them.

Dornish have held their own through guerilla tactics. I don't think they performed well in a battlefield scenario.

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

To be fair to Genghis Khan and his sons, the White Horde really is only a shadow of the Great Horde that can't, you know, bring its various siege engineers and other support units all the way to Hungary with 13th century travel conditions. I'll give the Great Horde a good chance against Poland and Hungary.

As for the White Horde and the Blue Horde, I'll leave that to Aldarion.

I don't really know much about White Horde, but Mongols had always had trouble with siege techniques, and had to rely on foreign specialists. Which is what created problems in invasion of Hungary, especially the second invasion of 1285.

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Which is exactly how to beat them, because Dumbthraki have zero siege engines, and will starve in a siege lasting any length of time because it is Winter and local supplies are depleted, and Daenerys will not be able to magically ship enough food over.

More like most of the Dothrakidiots will die before they get close since their best strategy is to charge right at the enemy and they have no armour. And they are invading a wartorn, short on food continent in Winter with the terrain against them.

I think it’s highly likely that Dany will have sappers/engineers.  Companies like The Windblown will have siege specialists.

I’d say also there’s big problem with Westerosi castles, compared to their medieval European counterparts.  They aren’t constructed to hold and dominate territory.  They’re huge prestige building projects, designed to show off the wealth and power of their owners.

 Real castles were as much offensive as defensive.  You used them to control the territory within half a day’s ride, as well as providing a refuge from attackers.  Given how the Riverlands is the cockpit of Westeros, without natural frontiers, there ought to be a network of fortifications to guard its borders, like those that were built to protect Normandy.

Casterly Rock, Storms End, the Eyrie, are seemingly impregnable, but you don’t need to take them to control territory.  A relatively small army can just bottle up the defenders.

Edited January 12 by SeanF

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Dornish have held their own through guerilla tactics. I don't think they performed well in a battlefield scenario.

Trident says they were threatening to flank roberts forces which isnt guerilla fighting its pure battlefield,getting stuck in

Lewn martell fought a corbray and both where wounded but the martell clearly less so as he was leading his men into roberts flank  but littlefingers fav puppet lyn corbray took up his fathers sword and killed the dornish leader and led the charge to break the now leaderless and demoralised dornish. 

 

No while they prefer guerilla tactics we know for a fact  they also have a heavy cavalry  culture with their lords who participate in the jousting tourneys....like real mongios and hun they clearly  mix light  archer cavalry with heavy-medium  cavalry.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 5/27/2023 at 4:36 PM, Lord Varys said:

Because they were dependent on the Volantenes. But the point here is that George didn't even care to portray how this happened - it just did. He doesn't give shit about logistics. But he also made it clear the infrastructure to move a lot of people is there, ripe for the taking. Volantis arranged transport for the Golden Company only by way of using merchant ships. The Volantene navy didn't partake in that at all. And that's just one Free City. Dany might end up controlling all Free Cities on the mainland ... and she will have the Iron Fleet and whatever ships her people secure in Slaver's Bay.

Dany is likely to control her fleet and ensure her armada lands (for the most part) at the desired destination.

The idea with the Dothraki is not so much that Dany will actually move all of them ... but she could do it if she were forced to do it. The very fact that she is likely going to be the god-empress of all the Dothraki should cow her enemies into submission because if her enemies force her she could throw wave after wave of Dothraki against them.

The notion that Dany can be defeated in the field is very unlikely.

Now do the Iron Fleet, crewed by the best sailors on the planet, and their trip to Mereen. Dany won't have the boats to move all her armies, let alone her followers, and we know how the march west from Mereen goes:

It was possible to go overland to Meereen, that much was true. The old Valyrian roads would take them there. Dragon roads, men called the great stone roadways of the Freehold, but the one that ran eastward from Volantis to Meereen had earned a more sinister name: the demon road.

"The demon road is dangerous, and too slow," Quentyn said. 

 

"The demon road, they call it now," said Mollono Yos Dob. The plump commander of the Stalwart Shields looked more like a scribe than a soldier, with his inky hands and heavy paunch, but he was as clever as they came. "Many and more of us would die."

 

"The demon road is death. We will lose half the company to desertion if we attempt that march, and bury half of those who remain beside the road. It grieves me to say it, but Magister Illyrio and his friends may have been unwise to put so much hope on this child queen."

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Now do the Iron Fleet, crewed by the best sailors on the planet, and their trip to Mereen. Dany won't have the boats to move all her armies, let alone her followers, and we know how the march west from Mereen goes:

It was possible to go overland to Meereen, that much was true. The old Valyrian roads would take them there. Dragon roads, men called the great stone roadways of the Freehold, but the one that ran eastward from Volantis to Meereen had earned a more sinister name: the demon road.

"The demon road is dangerous, and too slow," Quentyn said. 

 

"The demon road, they call it now," said Mollono Yos Dob. The plump commander of the Stalwart Shields looked more like a scribe than a soldier, with his inky hands and heavy paunch, but he was as clever as they came. "Many and more of us would die."

 

"The demon road is death. We will lose half the company to desertion if we attempt that march, and bury half of those who remain beside the road. It grieves me to say it, but Magister Illyrio and his friends may have been unwise to put so much hope on this child queen."

I expect that when the Volantenes revolt, there'll be plenty of ships.  Together with any remaining vessels from those blockading the city.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I expect that when the Volantenes revolt, there'll be plenty of ships.  Together with any remaining vessels from those blockading the city.

I expect that too but the issue is the volantene ships (and the others) are already full of .... soldiers and sailors.

[Lord Varys]

42 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Now do the Iron Fleet, crewed by the best sailors on the planet, and their trip to Mereen. Dany won't have the boats to move all her armies, let alone her followers, and we know how the march west from Mereen goes:

It was possible to go overland to Meereen, that much was true. The old Valyrian roads would take them there. Dragon roads, men called the great stone roadways of the Freehold, but the one that ran eastward from Volantis to Meereen had earned a more sinister name: the demon road.

"The demon road is dangerous, and too slow," Quentyn said. 

 

"The demon road, they call it now," said Mollono Yos Dob. The plump commander of the Stalwart Shields looked more like a scribe than a soldier, with his inky hands and heavy paunch, but he was as clever as they came. "Many and more of us would die."

 

"The demon road is death. We will lose half the company to desertion if we attempt that march, and bury half of those who remain beside the road. It grieves me to say it, but Magister Illyrio and his friends may have been unwise to put so much hope on this child queen."

The demon road is merely the direct way west. Once Dany has the Dothraki she would move them (and perhaps others) west overland through the Dothraki Sea and then by ways of Pentos and Myr to Westeros.

Also and again - if merchant ships moored in the harbor of Volantis can move 10,000 Golden Company to Westeros without breaking a sweat then logistics are not really a problem. After all, there would have been lots of sailors on the ships carrying the Golden Company, too - and George didn't even bother depicting that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The demon road is merely the direct way west. Once Dany has the Dothraki she would move them (and perhaps others) west overland through the Dothraki Sea and then by ways of Pentos and Myr to Westeros.

There is no food in the dothraki sea, so the same issues would arise. Any large group would starve, especially one walking with women and children and camp followers. So take the more direct road and starve or the less direct path and starve.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also and again - if merchant ships moored in the harbor of Volantis can move 10,000 Golden Company to Westeros without breaking a sweat then logistics are not really a problem. After all, there would have been lots of sailors on the ships carrying the Golden Company, too - and George didn't even bother depicting that.

Again the biggest issues are the existing boats already have a full complement and the ships in the harbor you're mentioning are thousands of miles (leagues?) away. We know exactly what happens with large fleets when they cross the narrow sea and sail from Westeros to Slaver's Bay

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

There is no food in the dothraki sea, so the same issues would arise. Any large group would starve, especially one walking with women and children and camp followers. So take the more direct road and starve or the less direct path and starve.

How do the Dothraki then survive in the Dothraki Sea?

15 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Again the biggest issues are the existing boats already have a full complement and the ships in the harbor you're mentioning are thousands of miles (leagues?) away. We know exactly what happens with large fleets when they cross the narrow sea and sail from Westeros to Slaver's Bay

You presuppose that all people are going to want to accompany Daenerys and/or that she wants to take all her people with her when she leaves. And as the Golden Company example shows - not all ships are necessarily full. It is, for instance, a presupposition that all the Volantene ships on their way to Meereen are full now.

Also, of course, Slaver's Bay-Meereen could be done by way of the same ships going back and forth multiple times. In Volantis more ships could be captured once the slaves have taken over the city, meaning Dany's armada could triple or quadruple in size in just a day or so.

I made it clear earlier that Dany's biggest advantage once she takes over the Dothraki is that people will know how many men she controls, how many armies she could throw against them if she wants to. That has an effect on the decisions of her (potential) enemies. People should behave like the many Hellenistic kings did when Rome was on the rise ... suck up to any Roman general they meet since you don't want to provoke the wrath of Rome. They don't have to march all their legions in your land to make you submit. It is enough to know that they could.

It is therefore irrelevant if she goes to Westeros only with 10,000 or 100,000 or a million men ... because the lords she will meet there will know how powerful she is, how many men will come after her vanguard.

[Universal Sword Donor]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How do the Dothraki then survive in the Dothraki Sea?

You have read the books. You know this answer

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You presuppose that all people are going to want to accompany Daenerys and/or that she wants to take all her people with her when she leaves. And as the Golden Company example shows - not all ships are necessarily full. It is, for instance, a presupposition that all the Volantene ships on their way to Meereen are full now.

We do know this: 

In Volantis he had seen the galleys taking on provisions. The whole city had seemed drunk. Sailors and soldiers and tinkers had been observed dancing in the streets with nobles and fat merchants, and in every inn and winesink cups were being raised to the new triarchs. All the talk had been of the gold and gems and slaves that would flood into Volantis once the dragon queen was dead. One day of such reports was all that Victarion Greyjoy could stomach; he paid the gold price for food and water, though it shamed him, and took his ships back out to sea.

The storms would have scattered and delayed the Volantenes, even as they had his own ships. If fortune smiled, many of their warships might have sunk or run aground. But not all. No god was that good, and those green galleys that survived by now could well have sailed around Valyria. They will be sweeping north toward Meereen and Yunkai, great dromonds of war teeming with slave soldiers.

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, of course, Slaver's Bay-Meereen could be done by way of the same ships going back and forth multiple times. In Volantis more ships could be captured once the slaves have taken over the city, meaning Dany's armada could triple or quadruple in size in just a day or so.

Slaver's bay is far too large to sail for Galleys to sail that quickly.

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I made it clear earlier that Dany's biggest advantage once she takes over the Dothraki is that people will know how many men she controls, how many armies she could throw against them if she wants to. That has an effect on the decisions of her (potential) enemies. People should behave like the many Hellenistic kings did when Rome was on the rise ... suck up to any Roman general they meet since you don't want to provoke the wrath of Rome. They don't have to march all their legions in your land to make you submit. It is enough to know that they could.

No debate there.

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is therefore irrelevant if she goes to Westeros only with 10,000 or 100,000 or a million men ... because the lords she will meet there will know how powerful she is, how many men will come after her vanguard.

Heavily disagree. She's only going to have whatever she can bring to Westeros. It's a super long voyage from SB to KL and she's not going to be moving all those people over (again). They would either die on the march there or arrive too late because sailing around the world takes a long time. 

"At the far end of the world," said Mace Tyrell. "Queen of Slaver's Bay, aye. She is welcome to it."