Hero and Martyr: Jon Snow

[Craving Peaches]

So the other thread has inspired me to write about Jonno's tragic demise* in terms of the heroic symbolism of it. Jon was trying to bring the conflicting factions of the Watch and the Wildlings together so that they were united against the greatest threat mankind has ever faced. In this respect, Jon was an idealist and a unifier. Jon died for his ideals of unity and cooperation unrestrained by cultural and religious boundaries. Why did Jon die? Because certain individuals did not share his ideals and let their pettiness and bigotry get the better of them. Even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it should be clear that the issue of the Others is far more important than anything else. Evidently the conspirators learned nothing from the legend of the Night's King, where the Starks and Wildlings, usually enemies, teamed up to destroy the greater threat. It is actually quite astounding that Bowen Marsh dislikes Jon's ideals so much that it blinds him to the threat of the Others. Is he just being wilfully ignorant? 

Now Jon's decisions when leading the Watch were not perfect, and there are some things I think he could have done better. But I think overall he did a good job with what he had. He had to deal with difficult situations like Stannis interfering and was also trying to face the ultimate threat.

What will happen when Jon comes back? I think that he will continue on his quest to unify all factions in preparation to fight the Others, but there will be less room for compromise and being nice. The fate of humanity is at stake and there's no time to sort things out diplomatically and no room for idiotic bigots like Bowen Marsh, who is on the verge of being a traitor to humanity if you think about it. Jon will likely feel betrayed in some manner by the attack, and I expect him to be harsher and more bitter because of this. There has also been discussion of Jon spending some time in Ghost before coming back, which would also have an effect on his temperament.

*I am aware Jon may not be dead, just badly injured, since he doesn't actually 'die' in his POV.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

So the other thread has inspired me to write about Jonno's tragic demise* in terms of the heroic symbolism of it. Jon was trying to bring the conflicting factions of the Watch and the Wildlings together so that they were united against the greatest threat mankind has ever faced. In this respect, Jon was an idealist and a unifier. Jon died for his ideals of unity and cooperation unrestrained by cultural and religious boundaries. Why did Jon die? Because certain individuals did not share his ideals and let their pettiness and bigotry get the better of them. Even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it should be clear that the issue of the Others is far more important than anything else. Evidently the conspirators learned nothing from the legend of the Night's King, where the Starks and Wildlings, usually enemies, teamed up to destroy the greater threat. It is actually quite astounding that Bowen Marsh dislikes Jon's ideals so much that it blinds him to the threat of the Others. Is he just being wilfully ignorant? 

Now Jon's decisions when leading the Watch were not perfect, and there are some things I think he could have done better. But I think overall he did a good job with what he had. He had to deal with difficult situations like Stannis interfering and was also trying to face the ultimate threat.

What will happen when Jon comes back? I think that he will continue on his quest to unify all factions in preparation to fight the Others, but there will be less room for compromise and being nice. The fate of humanity is at stake and there's no time to sort things out diplomatically and no room for idiotic bigots like Bowen Marsh, who is on the verge of being a traitor to humanity if you think about it. Jon will likely feel betrayed in some manner by the attack, and I expect him to be harsher and more bitter because of this. There has also been discussion of Jon spending some time in Ghost before coming back, which would also have an effect on his temperament.

*I am aware Jon may not be dead, just badly injured, since he doesn't actually 'die' in his POV.

Personally I do think Jon is dead at the end of the chapter. Well, his body is dead. I do think his mind is now in Ghost and it will return to his body. Personally I think the Others will raise Jon as the Wall crumbles, possibly due to Euron, and will make him their leader, or avatar of the Great Other. I think he is the Prince that was promised….to The Others. Much like Craster’s sons were promised to them and when Gilly “stole” her son they came for him. I think Jon will lead them for a time, and eventually be freed and return to his body.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Personally I do think Jon is dead at the end of the chapter. Well, his body is dead. I do think his mind is now in Ghost and it will return to his body. Personally I think the Others will raise Jon as the Wall crumbles, possibly due to Euron, and will make him their leader, or avatar of the Great Other. I think he is the Prince that was promised….to The Others. Much like Craster’s sons were promised to them and when Gilly “stole” her son they came for him. I think Jon will lead them for a time, and eventually be freed and return to his body.

That's quite a dark take, but I can see it happening. Not willingly on Jon's part, of course. But symbolically, Jon has tried to save everyone and been killed for his efforts. Now he can 'unify' people in a very different sort of way...

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's quite a dark take, but I can see it happening. Not willingly on Jon's part, of course. But symbolically, Jon has tried to save everyone and been killed for his efforts. Now he can 'unify' people in a very different sort of way...

We’ll the whole theory of the PTWP to the Others is that originally the Last Hero, was a Stark, that was either promised to them as a baby or that his child was promised and he refused. And that that was the reason the Others originally invaded Westeros. I believe that according to the theory, it was part of The Pact that promised children to the Others. I could be wrong on that front.

[LongRider]

I don’t think Jon is dead nor is he a bad guy.  As for a 2nd life in Ghost, don’t see that either.  Once a warg is dead they can’t return to the dead body. 

Jon could have a near death experience similar to Bran’s.  Let’s face it, Bran should be dead.  How that would play out remains to be seen of course. 

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, LongRider said:

Jon could have a near death experience similar to Bran’s.  Let’s face it, Bran should be dead.  How that would play out remains to be seen of course. 

Bloodraven already has his new recruit now. Would he still try and contact Jon anyway?

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So the other thread has inspired me to write about Jonno's tragic demise* in terms of the heroic symbolism of it. Jon was trying to bring the conflicting factions of the Watch and the Wildlings together so that they were united against the greatest threat mankind has ever faced. In this respect, Jon was an idealist and a unifier. Jon died for his ideals of unity and cooperation unrestrained by cultural and religious boundaries. Why did Jon die? Because certain individuals did not share his ideals and let their pettiness and bigotry get the better of them. Even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it should be clear that the issue of the Others is far more important than anything else. Evidently the conspirators learned nothing from the legend of the Night's King, where the Starks and Wildlings, usually enemies, teamed up to destroy the greater threat. It is actually quite astounding that Bowen Marsh dislikes Jon's ideals so much that it blinds him to the threat of the Others. Is he just being wilfully ignorant? 

Now Jon's decisions when leading the Watch were not perfect, and there are some things I think he could have done better. But I think overall he did a good job with what he had. He had to deal with difficult situations like Stannis interfering and was also trying to face the ultimate threat.

What will happen when Jon comes back? I think that he will continue on his quest to unify all factions in preparation to fight the Others, but there will be less room for compromise and being nice. The fate of humanity is at stake and there's no time to sort things out diplomatically and no room for idiotic bigots like Bowen Marsh, who is on the verge of being a traitor to humanity if you think about it. Jon will likely feel betrayed in some manner by the attack, and I expect him to be harsher and more bitter because of this. There has also been discussion of Jon spending some time in Ghost before coming back, which would also have an effect on his temperament.

*I am aware Jon may not be dead, just badly injured, since he doesn't actually 'die' in his POV.

Jon is the one boy to find them and in the darkness bind them. He’ll bring the humanity together and lead them in these dark times. He’ll fight if he has to but may bring peace as well, he proved himself an able negotiator by bringing Tormund’s wildlings into the fold, a peace with the Whiteys isn’t out of the question. Remember that the WW delegation was looking for the promised one to renew the 8000 years long peace and thought Waymar Royce was him since they looked like Jon. Waymar in his ignorance have shown aggression to the  delegation coming for peace negotiations. I’m not blaming this young lad who has shown such bravery that very few in the series can match his courageous act despite it putting peace in jeopardy, he was ignorant because NW has kept it’s members ignorant for thousands of years.

Ya hya Chouhada Jon Snow!

[The Commentator]

Jon is a hero to the White Walkers but a villain to humans.  He betrayed the watch.  

[Corvo the Crow]

16 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Jon is a hero to the White Walkers but a villain to humans.  He betrayed the watch.  

You wish.

Jon didn't betray the watch, whatever he does, he does under orders, first as a regular member of the Watch under orders of his commanding officer Qhorin halfhand, a legend among the Watch and Wildling alike and later as the Lord Commander of the watch and under orders of the king, Stannis Baratheon. Whatever else he does through his own decisions and not under orders, he does as Lord Commander of the Wall, supreme authority of the NW. Jon can't betray the Watch, he IS the Watch. The Wall is HIS!

Quote

Donal Noye did not return, nor any of them who'd gone down with him to hold that black cold tunnel. The Wall is mine, Jon reminded himself whenever he felt his strength flagging. He had taken up a longbow himself, and his fingers felt crabbed and stiff, half-frozen. His fever was back as well, and his leg would tremble uncontrollably, sending a white-hot knife of pain right through him. One more arrow, and I'll rest, he told himself, half a hundred times. Just one more. Whenever his quiver was empty, one of the orphaned moles would bring him another. One more quiver, and I'm done. It couldn't be long until the dawn.

 

Satin, Horse, and the others were looking to him, Jon knew, waiting for his orders. He was so tired, he hardly knew any more. The Wall is mine, he reminded himself. "Owen, Horse, to the catapults. Kegs, you and Spare Boot on the scorpions. The rest of you string your bows. Fire arrows. Let's see if we can burn it." It was likely to be a futile gesture, Jon knew, but it had to be better than standing helpless.

 

"Lord Eddard was no friend to me, but he was not without some sense. He would have given me these castles."

Never. "I cannot speak to what my father might have done. I took an oath, Your Grace. The Wall is mine."

 

He almost burned the parchment then and there. Instead he took a sip of ale, the dregs of the half cup that remained from his solitary supper the night before. I have to sign it. They chose me to be their lord commander. The Wall is mine, and the Watch as well.

 

"You are no guest of mine. You came to the Wall without my leave, armed, to carry off your niece against her will. Lady Alys was given bread and salt. She is a guest. You are a prisoner." Jon let that hang for a moment, then said, "Your niece is wed."

 

He found Leathers waiting for him by the winch cage. The two of them rode up together. The higher they went, the stronger the wind. Fifty feet up, the heavy cage began to sway with every gust. From time to time it scraped against the Wall, starting small crystalline showers of ice that sparkled in the sunlight as they fell. They rose above the tallest towers of the castle. At four hundred feet the wind had teeth, and tore at his black cloak so it slapped noisily at the iron bars. At seven hundred it cut right through him. The Wall is mine, Jon reminded himself as the winchmen were swinging in the cage, for two more days, at least.

 

The queen's nostrils flared. "You still mean to ride to Hardhome. I see it on your face. Let them die, I said, yet you will persist in this mad folly. Do not deny it."

"I must do as I think best. With respect, Your Grace, the Wall is mine, and so is this decision."

 

The Wall is his, and the Watch as well. Trolls, especially Dany trolls should better learn that and learn it soon.

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Jon is a hero to the White Walkers but a villain to humans.  He betrayed the watch.  

Only non-biased rational people who can read the text properly please.

[sifth]

30 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Jon is a hero to the White Walkers but a villain to humans.  He betrayed the watch.  

I know this is a troll post, but when has Jon ever come anywhere near trying to help The Others. We’re literally inside his head during his chapters.

[Craving Peaches]

32 minutes ago, sifth said:

I know this is a troll post, but when has Jon ever come anywhere near trying to help The Others. We’re literally inside his head during his chapters.

These people don't let silly things like the text get in the way of their need to regurgitate the same baseless bile to portray Jon as the Antichrist.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

These people don't let silly things like the text get in the way of their need to regurgitate the same baseless bile to portray Jon as the Antichrist.

Exactly. If “Jon” does anything evil it will be if and when he was resurrected by the Others

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Bloodraven already has his new recruit now. Would he still try and contact Jon anyway?

Similar experience does not necessarily include BR, however, Bran might be involved as Jon is family, or a different experience entirely. 
 

Don’t feed the trolls.  

[The Commentator]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:46 AM, sifth said:

I know this is a troll post, but when has Jon ever come anywhere near trying to help The Others. We’re literally inside his head during his chapters.

Jon weakened the night’s watch because his dedication to duty (the lack of it) compromised them. He was the wrong choice to put in a lead position. Jon failed as a leader. He was that sorry at the post.  

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Jon weakened the night’s watch because his dedication to duty (the lack of it) compromised them. He was the wrong choice to put in a lead position. Jon failed as a leader. He was that sorry at the post.  

Yeah they should've gone with Alliser Thorne or Janos Slynt, such dutiful men wth qualities of good leaders.

[LongRider]

21 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yeah they should've gone with Alliser Thorne or Janos Slynt, such dutiful men wth qualities of good leaders.

Come on Crow, these two were backed by Bowen Marsh, a brilliant endorsement!    

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Come on Crow, these two were backed by Bowen Marsh, a brilliant endorsement!    

Indeed it is. That head of his is as filled with knowledge and intelligence as a pomegranate is with seeds. 

[Ring3r]

On 12/15/2022 at 5:37 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So the other thread has inspired me to write about Jonno's tragic demise* in terms of the heroic symbolism of it. Jon was trying to bring the conflicting factions of the Watch and the Wildlings together so that they were united against the greatest threat mankind has ever faced. In this respect, Jon was an idealist and a unifier. Jon died for his ideals of unity and cooperation unrestrained by cultural and religious boundaries. Why did Jon die? Because certain individuals did not share his ideals and let their pettiness and bigotry get the better of them. Even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it should be clear that the issue of the Others is far more important than anything else. Evidently the conspirators learned nothing from the legend of the Night's King, where the Starks and Wildlings, usually enemies, teamed up to destroy the greater threat. It is actually quite astounding that Bowen Marsh dislikes Jon's ideals so much that it blinds him to the threat of the Others. Is he just being wilfully ignorant? 

Now Jon's decisions when leading the Watch were not perfect, and there are some things I think he could have done better. But I think overall he did a good job with what he had. He had to deal with difficult situations like Stannis interfering and was also trying to face the ultimate threat.

What will happen when Jon comes back? I think that he will continue on his quest to unify all factions in preparation to fight the Others, but there will be less room for compromise and being nice. The fate of humanity is at stake and there's no time to sort things out diplomatically and no room for idiotic bigots like Bowen Marsh, who is on the verge of being a traitor to humanity if you think about it. Jon will likely feel betrayed in some manner by the attack, and I expect him to be harsher and more bitter because of this. There has also been discussion of Jon spending some time in Ghost before coming back, which would also have an effect on his temperament.

*I am aware Jon may not be dead, just badly injured, since he doesn't actually 'die' in his POV.

It doesn't surprise me too much about Bowen Marsh.  Many of the older members of the Watch have lost many friends to the Wildlings, and I'm sure Marsh is no different.  His bringing the Wildlings south of the wall was only one reason they betrayed him as well....he had announced he was going to use the Watch to settle a personal matter because of the Pink Letter....that IS a betrayal of his Oath.  I think he's the ultimate hero of the story, but that doesn't mean he's always going to make good decisions.

As for what will happen when Jon comes back...I'm part of the "He's currently in Ghost" camp, so depending on how long it takes to get him back into a human body.....his personality is probably going to be a bit more hardcore and predatory.

The thing I'm most interested in is HOW is he going to come back.  His body is dead, but there's a Red Priest nearby so that's not insurmountable.  But....unlike in other cases like Beric or Cat....his soul isn't just out in the ether, so maybe that will make it work differently?

There's also the possibility that Jon is going to inhabit a different body than his original.  There's a lot of imagery shared between Euron and Jon.  If Euron somehow transmutes himself into an Other (which appear to be physical manifestations of ice, not flesh and bone) and his body is left behind, Jon might be able to Warg it, since it'd be an unoccupied husk.  This would cause all sorts of problems for Jon, because he would then look like somebody a whole lot of people know as a monster.

I think it's more likely he'll get his old body back and it will be somehow altered (white hair, at a minimum, to look more like a Targ) but there are other options.

[sifth]

46 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Jon weakened the night’s watch because his dedication to duty (the lack of it) compromised them. He was the wrong choice to put in a lead position. Jon failed as a leader. He was that sorry at the post.  

Yea, because making a truce with the wildings and getting most of the castles manned, was truly a horrible thing.