Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between

[Black Crow]

Its Mel's usual bit about "the path ahead and the path not taken and it comes over as a warning that if he goes, she'll go too. OK its ambiguous anent Mel but there is no-one else in Red at Castle Black to go along with the rangers

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As Takiedevushkikakzvezdy says, its discussed in the Reddit info dump published by Mithras.

Sorry.  I was a bit confused.  The little dog, otherwise known as Kibbles, Schmibbly, Missy and Fuzzy Pants, passed away on Monday from heart failure.  I've been walking around here since then, not knowing quite what to do with myself.  I miss her sweetness, teddy bear looks, our nightly howl-in, her acrobatics and the uncanny way she could wake me up by staring at my face.  She left without fear or pain, lots of kisses and the I've got your tail game.  She spun her tail like a helicopter with a little morphine to ease her passing.  I'd post her picture so you could see her extreme cuteness for yourself, but I don't know how to do that.

[Black Crow]

Sad news. My two send their condolences as they too lost a dear friend a couple of days ago

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Sad news. My two send their condolences as they too lost a dear friend a couple of days ago

My sympathies to you as well.  What breed are your two?  I'm under the impression they are big dogs.  

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sorry.  I was a bit confused.  The little dog, otherwise known as Kibbles, Schmibbly, Missy and Fuzzy Pants, passed away on Monday from heart failure.  I've been walking around here since then, not knowing quite what to do with myself.  I miss her sweetness, teddy bear looks, our nightly howl-in, her acrobatics and the uncanny way she could wake me up by staring at my face.  She left without fear or pain, lots of kisses and the I've got your tail game.  She spun her tail like a helicopter with a little morphine to ease her passing.  I'd post her picture so you could see her extreme cuteness for yourself, but I don't know how to do that.

Tiger Lily sends her condolences as well. She's an aging, fat, orange tabby cat, but she got along with dogs. Doesn't care much for tomcats however, especially black and white ones that rhyme with schmittens.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

My sympathies to you as well.  What breed are your two?  I'm under the impression they are big dogs.  

Fern is relatively small, a Collie cross and quite joyfully mad. George, however, is an English Mastiff and rather big. Happily not mad, which is just as well 

[Mithras]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its Mel's usual bit about "the path ahead and the path not taken and it comes over as a warning that if he goes, she'll go too. OK its ambiguous anent Mel but there is no-one else in Red at Castle Black to go along with the rangers

Hmm, I see the confusion. The vision was just a single scene. It didn't say they were going from A to B.

It is possible that the vision was from an instance where they did the ranging and were on the way back to Castle Black, which means they encountered the red lady during the mission. Or they did not return directly to Castle Black but continue ranging to Hardhome, after learning where the free folk were from the red lady. This was one of Jon's primary objectives. The vision might be from an instance on the way to Hardhome.

Edited January 20 by Mithras

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure that there's confusion. It seems pretty straightforward that Mels warning that she will be going too rather than predicting an unknown "other" red woman - which would be confusing

[Jekse]

I've opened the heresy thread every couple months for years now and I still don't have any idea what it is you people are actually talking about 

[Black Crow]

Various things...

seriously though. Heresy began way back in 2011 as the Wall, the Watch and a Heresy. The Heresy essentially was the suggestion that the then assumption that the Starks were good and that the Wall was mankind's last best hope against the horror from the North. We also had our doubts about some other conventional wisdoms such as R+L=J and so on its gone, offering a forum for a quirky, unconventional look at the story. 

[LynnS]

This is an interesting examination of Thoros:

 

[Aehole targaryen]

It's interesting that it's assumed that Winterfell is Winter + fell (the verb) as I have always thought it was Winter + fell (the noun for mountain). Could be my Swedish priors since we use the cognate "fjäll." I assumed it meant that WF was so massive that it was likened to a mountain, combined with "fell" as in "deadly"

I wonder how much of word play will matter. In the Swedish translation Winter fell is named "Vinterhed" which would more directly translate to "Wintermoor." 

Anyway, I really like these heresies. I always thought there was something strange about the RLJ stuff as well as Stark's as House being less nice than what the current family would imply. The concept of the Musgrave ritual is also very interesting and I'm sure much can be discovered comparing the setup of Summerhall, Tower of Joy and Daenerys' pyre.

Edited January 24 by Aehole targaryen
strange white stuff covering the text

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Aehole targaryen said:

In the Swedish translation Winter fell is named "Vinterhed" which would more directly translate to "Wintermoor." 

Curiously, the Swedish version of AGoT was originally split into two books. Part one was called I Vargens Tid (In the Time of the Wolf) and the second one Kampen om Järntronen (The struggle for the Iron Throne).

In the Time of the Wolf sounds quite similar to A Time for Wolves, which was the original title for A Dream of Spring. It's probably a coincidence, but a remarkable one. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Aehole targaryen said:

It's interesting that it's assumed that Winterfell is Winter + fell (the verb) as I have always thought it was Winter + fell (the noun for mountain). Could be my Swedish priors since we use the cognate "fjäll." I assumed it meant that WF was so massive that it was likened to a mountain, combined with "fell" as in "deadly"

I wonder how much of word play will matter. In the Swedish translation Winter fell is named "Vinterhed" which would more directly translate to "Wintermoor." 

Anyway, I really like these heresies. I always thought there was something strange about the RLJ stuff as well as Stark's as House being less nice than what the current family would imply. The concept of the Musgrave ritual is also very interesting and I'm sure much can be discovered comparing the setup of Summerhall, Tower of Joy and Daenerys' pyre.

The assumption that Winterfell is Winter + fell is just a theory, but it is one that I tend to believe, because of the ancient mythos that the Children helped the Last Hero (singular) defeat the Others. Then there's that conflicting song that the Nights Watch (multiple) rode out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. Add to that the mythos that Bran the Builder built Winterfell and you've got a collection of stories that seem to hint that the Starks have Winterfell because they participated in defeating the Others. 

It is said that the Others bring the cold winds or alternatively that the cold winds bring the Others, so "winter" is very much associated with the Others. Therefore, defeating the Others would be to overcome winter, thus winter fell.

When I say "Others" I'm visually imagining white walkers, because white walkers cannot exist without winter - BUT I very much believe that the wildlings ARE also the Others and are responsible for creating white walkers. I base this theory on what we know about how Melisandre births (black) shadows. It only makes sense to me that white walkers are also (white) shadows and therefore need a human to draw life-force from in order to exist. The only difference between the black and white shadows is that the cold preserves and freezes the mist used in their creation. The black shadows are also made of mist, but the "fire" (sunlight) consumes them. The white walker shadows are known to avoid the sun, because the heat of light would melt them.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said:

It's interesting that it's assumed that Winterfell is Winter + fell (the verb) as I have always thought it was Winter + fell (the noun for mountain). Could be my Swedish priors since we use the cognate "fjäll." I assumed it meant that WF was so massive that it was likened to a mountain, combined with "fell" as in "deadly"

I wonder how much of word play will matter. In the Swedish translation Winter fell is named "Vinterhed" which would more directly translate to "Wintermoor." 

Anyway, I really like these heresies. I always thought there was something strange about the RLJ stuff as well as Stark's as House being less nice than what the current family would imply. The concept of the Musgrave ritual is also very interesting and I'm sure much can be discovered comparing the setup of Summerhall, Tower of Joy and Daenerys' pyre.

Coming from Scotland and currently living in Northumberland I've always read Winterfell as a noun - Vinterfed if you prefer, but the thought occurs to me, reading this post, that the Stark possession of Winterfell may be balanced by the Targaryen possession of Summerhall  

[Aehole targaryen]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The assumption that Winterfell is Winter + fell is just a theory, but it is one that I tend to believe, because of the ancient mythos that the Children helped the Last Hero (singular) defeat the Others. Then there's that conflicting song that the Nights Watch (multiple) rode out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. Add to that the mythos that Bran the Builder built Winterfell and you've got a collection of stories that seem to hint that the Starks have Winterfell because they participated in defeating the Others. 

The theory that the defeat of the Others happened at Winterfell is an attractive one. Or rather at the place that Winterfell was built atop of, I guess. Because Winterfell, the Wall and the genesis of House Stark coincide in time, right? Makes me wonder what is beneath Winterfell and what we will find in the deepest crypts, or beneath them. And what the old Kings of Winter are guarding with their iron swords, us or whatever is hidden below?

Also, might Winterfell be the destination of the White Walkers now? Through the Wall and then beeline to Winterfell to release / slay whatever is hidden beneath?

This is not a heresy per se, but still interesting stuff. Dragons are ofc very cool, but the stuff up north feels more esoteric and thus immediately more attractive.

[Aehole targaryen]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Curiously, the Swedish version of AGoT was originally split into two books. Part one was called I Vargens Tid (In the Time of the Wolf) and the second one Kampen om Järntronen (The struggle for the Iron Throne).

In the Time of the Wolf sounds quite similar to A Time for Wolves, which was the original title for A Dream of Spring. It's probably a coincidence, but a remarkable one. 

My guess is that they want to evoke some norse mythology. Wolf-time in Havamal etc.

[Aehole targaryen]

47 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Coming from Scotland and currently living in Northumberland I've always read Winterfell as a noun - Vinterfed if you prefer, but the thought occurs to me, reading this post, that the Stark possession of Winterfell may be balanced by the Targaryen possession of Summerhall  

I'm sure that plays a part, but Summerhall was built by the Targaryens, right? 100-120 years before A Game of Thrones. A fair bit younger than Winterfell. But the presumed ritual that went wrong there wraps up the balance nicely.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Coming from Scotland and currently living in Northumberland I've always read Winterfell as a noun - Vinterfed if you prefer, but the thought occurs to me, reading this post, that the Stark possession of Winterfell may be balanced by the Targaryen possession of Summerhall  

 

37 minutes ago, Aehole targaryen said:

I'm sure that plays a part, but Summerhall was built by the Targaryens, right? 100-120 years before A Game of Thrones. A fair bit younger than Winterfell. But the presumed ritual that went wrong there wraps up the balance nicely.

Agreed with all of the above.

But it's not just that the ritual went wrong--the Targs are parvenues per se. They never were part of the balance of Westeros to begin with.

They are actively messing with Westeros. Burning. Messing with the Wall. Basing the Kingsguard off the Watch--and potentially pulling attention away from the importance of the Watch. Even as the Stranger statue in Dragonstone seems to potentially point to the Targs' fear of the northern skinchangers.

Seems like "Summerhall" may be another bit of arrogant Targ puffery, believing they can change everything. And the the ritual and its failure seem driven by that arrogance.

But the balance goes back far, far further. And it can't be solved with Targ conquering. Let alone dragons.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Aehole targaryen said:

The theory that the defeat of the Others happened at Winterfell is an attractive one. Or rather at the place that Winterfell was built atop of, I guess. Because Winterfell, the Wall and the genesis of House Stark coincide in time, right? Makes me wonder what is beneath Winterfell and what we will find in the deepest crypts, or beneath them. And what the old Kings of Winter are guarding with their iron swords, us or whatever is hidden below?

Also, might Winterfell be the destination of the White Walkers now? Through the Wall and then beeline to Winterfell to release / slay whatever is hidden beneath?

This is not a heresy per se, but still interesting stuff. Dragons are ofc very cool, but the stuff up north feels more esoteric and thus immediately more attractive.

The Wall was inspired by GRRM's visit to Hadrian's Wall in England, but with regards to our story the Wall is more closely positioned with Antonine's Wall further north.

It does seem likely that Moat Cailin was possibly an earlier "Hadrian's" wall, but was destroyed. It's heavily suggested that the Children called down their hammer of waters from that location and that's why it was destroyed, so what if the "help" that the Children gave the Last Hero was the hammer?

The ancient timeline is a bit fuzzy, but the generally accepted idea is that the Hammer occurred much earlier than the Last Hero and that it was part of the war against the invading Andals, and that afterward the Children were pushed further north. If the Andals won and the Children defeated, then the Starks were also defeated.

The wildling's origin story includes their lord dying and their refusal to accept the dead lord's son as their new lord - that business about not bending the knee to him is the reason they are imprisoned behind the Wall. Did the dead lord's son conspire with the Andals? It could be one possible answer to the mystery in the crypts. 

There is also the theory that the earliest Night Watch watched from atop several walls like a curtain wall that encloses a great castle like Winterfell. Perhaps an ancient weirwood throne where a greenseer once sat is what's lying in the lower levels of the crypts, warded behind iron bars. Maybe the greenseer was also the dead lord Stark? 

All of these theories have been discussed over the years in the past Heresy threads.