Did Lyanna know of Aegon’s prophecy before…

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Meeting Rhaegar? I think it’s clear that Rhaegar knew and believed the prophecy, but do you think Lyanna could’ve already know of it? The Pact of Ice & Fire seems to indicated the prophecy being passed between Cregan and Jace. Perhaps it was passed down from each Lord Stark after. While Ned was fostered for most of his life away from WF, could Rickard have passed it to Brandon and maybe Brandon discussed or mentioned it to or around Lyanna? 
 

So when Rhaegar approached her about it, she could’ve believed him. Perhaps love had nothing to do with it, perhaps she was a true believer and was doing her duty?

[Corvo the Crow]

I think it's clear Mr. Martin has only added this prophecy much later so obviously she didn't know at the time and neither did Rhaenyra.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think it's clear Mr. Martin has only added this prophecy much later so obviously she didn't know at the time and neither did Rhaenyra.

I am not sure if the prophecy even exists in the books in terms of Aegon knowing about it and basing his invasion on it, and to be frank I would find it silly if it was added now because it's obviously a retroactive change.

[StarkTullies]

7 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I think it’s clear that Rhaegar knew and believed the prophecy, but do you think Lyanna could’ve already know of it? The Pact of Ice & Fire seems to indicated the prophecy being passed between Cregan and Jace. Perhaps it was passed down from each Lord Stark after. While Ned was fostered for most of his life away from WF, could Rickard have passed it to Brandon and maybe Brandon discussed or mentioned it to or around Lyanna?

Rhaegar learned the prophecy from something he read and he was "changed".  The only confirmation in ASOIAF that there was any prophecy is that the Ghost of High Heart told future King Jaeherys II that "the prince who was promised" would be descended from Aerys and Rhaella.  The idea of Aegon I knowing about a similar prophecy comes from a source other than these books which is not necessarily canon, and I don't believe that it is.

But removing all of that and answering the question otherwise, everything about what happened with Lyanna disappearing with Rhaegar is a mystery that won't be confirmed until presumably The Winds of Winter (I don't think the secret will wait until the final book, but I could be wrong).  All we can do is speculate, but I will speculate that Lyanna didn't know, and this prophecy was only introduced into the Targaryen family very recently and never made it to the Starks.  I suspect that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, but because she loved him, because she wanted to escape marrying Robert, because Rhaegar's own marriage was arranged and loveless.  She probably came to believe his prophecy after she decided she loved him... but not before.

[EggBlue]

no . I don't even know if there's an Aegon prophecy . but Rhaegar was clearly after something and with how he's been described , I'd say he most likely had dreams and prophecies of his own that he couldn't fully understand . whether he told Lyanna anything about it or not we can't know . he clearly said some things to Elia . he is described as a pretty introvert person but she was already his wife for years, the mother of his children and his future queen and according to Barry , he was very fond of her . maybe he trusted Lyanna that much too . who knows . but Lyanna doesn't particularly come off as someone who would be swayed for prophecies and for someone reserved like Rhaegar , it would be pretty difficult to share . 

[Oana_Mika]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am not sure if the prophecy even exists in the books in terms of Aegon knowing about it and basing his invasion on it, and to be frank I would find it silly if it was added now because it's obviously a retroactive change.

What is the significance of these prophecies, George? Unless I’ve missed it, is this something you wrote in one of the books, or is that an invention of the show?

Martin: It’s mentioned here and there—in connection with Prince Rhaegar, for example [the brother of Daenerys, played on Game of Thrones by Wilf Scolding]. I mean, it’s such a sprawling thing now. In the Dunk and Egg stories [about a future king, “Egg,” a.k.a. Aegon V], there’s one of Egg’s brothers who has these prophetic dreams, which of course he can’t handle. He had become a drunkard because they freaked him out. If you go all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, why did she leave? She saw the Doom of Valyria coming. All of this is part of it, but I’m still two books away from the ending, so I haven’t fully explained it all yet.

[Note: The Doom of Valyria was an Atlantis-like cataclysm that demolished the old world roughly a century before Aegon I, the first king of Westeros. Martin has previously noted that “the Targaryens were the only nobles with dragons who escaped the destruction of Valyria.” Having advance notice of history is one of the keys to their power.]

 

Is one of the implications of this series that the Targaryens might’ve been better prepared for the doomsday prophecy if not for this Dance of Dragons civil war that decimated their family and stripped them of these powerful beasts?

Martin: I don’t want to give too much away, because some of this is going to be in the later books, but this is 200 years before the events of Game of Thrones. There was no sell-by date on that prophecy. That’s the issue. The Targaryens that know about it are all thinking, Okay, this is going to happen in my lifetime, I have to be prepared! Or, It’s going to happen in my son’s lifetime. Nobody said it’s going to happen 200 years from now. If the Dance of the Dragons had not happened, what would’ve happened to the next generation? What would’ve happened in the generation after that? Yeah, there’s a lot to be unwound there.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20220815184501/https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/08/house-of-the-dragon-george-r-r-martin

 

And this video after the release of "Fire&Blood" : 

 

 

 

 

Egg lowered his voice. “Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron’s dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy.”

— The Mystery Knight.

“Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’”

— Daenerys I, ASOS.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

— Daenerys III, ASOS.

[Craving Peaches]

33 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

— Daenerys III, ASOS.

None of this suggests to me that Aegon invaded Westeros because of the Others. I stand by what I said - if it was added now it would look like a retroactive change.

[Oana_Mika]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

None of this suggests to me that Aegon invaded Westeros because of the Others. I stand by what I said - if it was added now it would look like a retroactive change.

I showed you Martin pretty much confirming that Aegon's motivation to conquer Westeros was to unite it against the Others. Fair enough, he says he will get in details in his next books (as he, until now, has wrote Aegon as being mysterious) but I don't believe it was a last minute add, as himself tells that he has planted clues in the books for this.

[StarkTullies]

29 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I showed you Martin pretty much confirming that Aegon's motivation to conquer Westeros was to unite it against the Others. Fair enough, he says he will get in details in his next books (as he, until now, has wrote Aegon as being mysterious) but I don't believe it was a last minute add, as himself tells that he has planted clues in the books for this.

His interview certainly implies there were secret reasons for Aegon I's invasion, so we'll never know for sure until the books confirm rather than relying on his intentionally ambiguous implications.

Currently, there is nothing in the published books so far that indicates that this prophecy goes back 300 years.  The only specifics we have is Barristan telling Dany that a "woods witch" (presumably the Ghost of High Heart) told Jaeherys II that the promised prince would be descended from Aerys and Rhaella, and that is 200 years after Aegon's Conquest.

And if the Targaryens knew about this for 300 years, then why didn't anybody other than Alysanne make the Wall a priority?  Why didn't they move their capital farther north closer to the threat?  Why did they keep the threat of the Others a secret from literally everybody else?  I agree with Craving Peaches.  George Martin is famous for his "gardening", and if George Martin says that Aegon I always knew about the Others, this is a weed that grew in the garden long after A Game of Thrones was first published.  The appendix for A Game of Thrones says that Rhaenyra is one year older than Aegon II, so obviously much of his story was re-written since then.  If the Targaryens knew about the Others all along, they were recklessly horrible at preparing for it.

[Oana_Mika]

2 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

And if the Targaryens knew about this for 300 years, then why didn't anybody other than Alysanne make the Wall a priority?  Why didn't they move their capital farther north closer to the threat?  Why did they keep the threat of the Others a secret from literally everybody else?

Martin: I don’t want to give too much away, because some of this is going to be in the later books, but this is 200 years before the events of Game of Thrones. There was no sell-by date on that prophecy. That’s the issue. The Targaryens that know about it are all thinking, Okay, this is going to happen in my lifetime, I have to be prepared! Or, It’s going to happen in my son’s lifetime. Nobody said it’s going to happen 200 years from now. If the Dance of the Dragons had not happened, what would’ve happened to the next generation? What would’ve happened in the generation after that? Yeah, there’s a lot to be unwound there.

 

As you can see, there was a no sell-by date on the prophecy and he also wants to develop this more in the next ASOIAF books (as the threat will happen in that timeline). Plus, we don't know if they kept it a secret. Aegon and Thorren exchanged letters before he knelt. And just like in the North, the Others became a myth, so this prophecy in the House Targaryen got lost. As we can see in "Fire&Blood", Aegon's first concern after the conquest was reconciliation : 

 

The reconciliation of the Seven Kingdoms to Targaryen rule was the keystone of Aegon I’s policies as king. To this end, he made great efforts to include men (and even a few women) from every part of the realm in his court and councils. His former foes were encouraged to send their children (chiefly younger sons and daughters, as most great lords desired to keep their heirs close to home) to court, where the boys served as pages, cupbearers, and squires, the girls as handmaidens and companions to Aegon’s queens. In King’s Landing, they witnessed the king’s justice at first hand, and were urged to think of themselves as leal subjects of one great realm, not as westermen or stormlanders or northmen. - Fire&Blood - Three Heads Had The Dragon  - Governance Under King Aegon I

 

 

Also, Alysanne wasn't the only interested in the Watch. Egg also sent plenty of food and resources in the North.

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I showed you Martin pretty much confirming that Aegon's motivation to conquer Westeros was to unite it against the Others. Fair enough, he says he will get in details in his next books (as he, until now, has wrote Aegon as being mysterious) but I don't believe it was a last minute add, as himself tells that he has planted clues in the books for this.

Aegon's actions during and after the conquest do not line up with the idea of him knowing about and invading to combat the Others. Does he strengthen the Watch? Does he try to promote unity within Westeros aside from the initial conquest? Does he try to spread awareness of the Others or the prophecy? If he's concerned with hordes of undead, why does he spend so much time slaughtering Dornish peasants? Why did he not just marry Argella to get the Stormlands bloodlessly.

I disagree that you have shown me that Martin confirmed Aegon conquerer Westeros to fight the Others. What you have shown me is that some Targaryens have prophetic dreams. Nothing suggests that Aegon himself had those dreams, and nothing suggests that they were about the Others. Targaryen dreams are called dragon dreams. Daeron and Daenerys dream about dragons not the Others, and Daena likely dreamed about dragons dying. Daenerys does have a dream about an army 'armoured in ice' but that seems to me to be as close as it gets.

If it is the 'twist' then I don't think it's a good one because Aegon's actions make no sense if he knows about this prophecy.

[Oana_Mika]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Aegon's actions during and after the conquest do not line up with the idea of him knowing about and invading to combat the Others. Does he strengthen the Watch? Does he try to promote unity within Westeros aside from the initial conquest? Does he try to spread awareness of the Others or the prophecy? If he's concerned with hordes of undead, why does he spend so much time slaughtering Dornish peasants? Why did he not just marry Argella to get the Stormlands bloodlessly.

The reconciliation of the Seven Kingdoms to Targaryen rule was the keystone of Aegon I’s policies as king. To this end, he made great efforts to include men (and even a few women) from every part of the realm in his court and councils. His former foes were encouraged to send their children (chiefly younger sons and daughters, as most great lords desired to keep their heirs close to home) to court, where the boys served as pages, cupbearers, and squires, the girls as handmaidens and companions to Aegon’s queens. In King’s Landing, they witnessed the king’s justice at first hand, and were urged to think of themselves as leal subjects of one great realm, not as westermen or stormlanders or northmen. - Fire&Blood - Three Heads Had The Dragon  - Governance Under King Aegon I

 

So you can see he did promote unity within Westeros (and there are other passages/lines about this in "Fire&Blood"). Martin himself says he wants to write in detail about this in the next ASOIAF books so we clearly don't get much from what is published because he wants to expand on this in his main serie, as it's the main conflict in the current timeline so I dissagree with it being "a last minute change". As for Dorne, it's clear he wanted all Westeros united, together. That's why he fought them.

And he did not marry Argella because he already had two wives (which is tied with "The dragon has three heads" prophecy). I repeat : Martin did not reveal everything and let Aegon I to be mysterious precisely because it's something about him that he wants to reveal in TWOW and ADOS.

 

[StarkTullies]

4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

As we can see in "Fire&Blood", Aegon's first concern after the conquest was everyone to be united.

But why wasn't it to prepare them for the Others, if that was his motivating reason to kill thousands of innocents in the Field of Fire for the eventual "greater good"?  I can't think of any reason why the Targaryens would keep it a secret.

The Nightfort was the original fortress at the Night's Watch.  It was still functional ~10 thousand years later during the time of Queen Alysanne.  Then under a unified realm under the Targaryens' watch, the Night's Watch shuts down the vast majority of their castles?  How and why did the Targaryens allow that to happen?

11 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Plus, we don't know if they kept it a secret. Aegon and Thorren exchanged letters before he knelt.

They kept it secret from the realm.  Torrhen was reckless too if Aegon told Torrhen, and then Torrhen kept it a secret as well.

12 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And just like in the North, the Others became a myth, so this prophecy in the House Targaryen got lost.

It took thousands of years for the Others to become a myth in the North, just a couple hundred for the Targaryens, if that is the case.  Considering the worshipful attitude Targaryens have of their ancestor and their pride in their prophetic dreams, "losing" that prophecy is unacceptable.

I do think it is quite possible that Aegon I foreseeing the Others is George Martin's plan, but if so, it is a rewrite.  There are a lot of them.  I don't think Young Griff in George Martin's mind when Arya overheard Varys and Illyrio conspiring, as one example.  Currently Varys's constantly changing plans doesn't make sense to me, but we'll see if George Martin works his magic and makes it make sense.

Let's say Aegon I saw the Others.  Did his prophetic dream show how to deal with them, or did he jump to conclusions on his own?  Cersei's obsession with prophecy certainly wreaked havoc, and I don't think it will be any different for this prophecy.  Gorghan of Old Ghis, quoted by Marwyn below, sums up prophecies in George's story pretty well:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy. Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

[Craving Peaches]

I am firmly of the opinion that Aegon I's actions in the books do not line up with him knowing about the Others.

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

As for Dorne, it's clear he wanted all Westeros united, together, that's why he fought them.

He could have offered marriage rather than fight them, like his descendants did. If he's concerned with the Others he should be minimising bloodshed to conserve as many of the living as possible, but his actions in Dorne and the Stormlands do not.

11 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And he did not marry Argella because he already had two wives (which is tied with "The dragon has three heads" prophecy).

This wording can easily also fit Aegon, a dragon, having three wives, the heads.

[StarkTullies]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am firmly of the opinion that Aegon I's actions in the books do not line up with him knowing about the Others.

Agreed.  The first 3 books were published over 4 years, and 23 years have passed since then.  Many things sprouted in the song and ice and fire garden since then, but those first 3 books (written without Aegon's having foreknowledge of the Others) stand as they are.

[Oana_Mika]

@StarkTullies @Craving Peaches Aegon fighting people to unite Westeros against the Others is not contradictory as they most probably would not believe it nor they would renounce to their power. As for him (or other Tagaryens) not preparing better the realm for the threat you forget that there are plenty things to do to unite a continent (and they did prepare Westeros by uniting it in one realm and developing it's economy) and plenty of other fights within the realm and schemes. Also a prophecy is not something concrete, that tells you when it will happen and how to manage it and I believe that the Dance really harmed other members of the House (the heirs) knowing about the prophecy; Rhaegar himself found about it in a book. And we do know that AA and TPTWP are the same prophecy : 

 

What is the origin behind the Azor Azhai prophecy?
The prophecy comes from the countries of the east (my own note: in Spanish it said west, but they acknowledged this was a mistake on the transcriber’s part), it’s not a Westerosi prophecy, you can infer that from the name. Westeros has its own prophecies, different from the one about He Who Was Promised.source: (x)

[EggBlue]

I don't know if GRRM initially wanted to have Aegon I believe in some notion of prophecy or not . and I certainly can't be sure if GRRM wants to add any hints of a prophetic belief that led Aegon to conquer or not. these info is currently largely missing from the text , but like he's said , he's got two more books and endless possibilities . however , @Craving Peaches , I don't think slaughter of the Dornish and not finishing the conquest or never visiting the Wall disproves the possibility of a prophecy . first and foremost because we do not know the specifics of what Aegon may have dreamt . for all we know the stupid gods of Valyria did not send a clear Wall dream to Aegon .   

nonetheless , there is still one clue in the text that Aegon and his sisters may have had some sort of dragon dream , if not the "Other prophecy" and that , I think , is the repeated theme of three heads of the dragon . at the first glance , it's not anything important . but the number three keeps appearing whenever Targs are concerned . for some reason after years of monogamy in Targaryen family tree after the doom, these three siblings married each other . then , they decided to attack a foreign land that they had showed zero interest in previously to declare themselves king and queens . then they took up a three headed dragon for their sigil which is pretty convenient considering there's three of them! but the question is was it first the trio or was it first an idea for the three headed dragon that drove the trio towards whatever they achieved? it certainly becomes a more important question when Rhaegar and Aemon both take three heads of the dragon so literally , Daenerys is called child of three despite her family tree connecting to only 2 of the trio , the repeated "three" visions in Dany's Qarth experience and of course the three dragons that came back to life from stone. 

[Oana_Mika]

17 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

nonetheless , there is still one clue in the text that Aegon and his sisters may have had some sort of dragon dream , if not the "Other prophecy" and that , I think , is the repeated theme of three heads of the dragon . at the first glance , it's not anything important . but the number three keeps appearing whenever Targs are concerned . for some reason after years of monogamy in Targaryen family tree after the doom, these three siblings married each other . then , they decided to attack a foreign land that they had showed zero interest in previously to declare themselves king and queens . then they took up a three headed dragon for their sigil which is pretty convenient considering there's three of them! but the question is was it first the trio or was it first an idea for the three headed dragon that drove the trio towards whatever they achieved? it certainly becomes a more important question when Rhaegar and Aemon both take three heads of the dragon so literally , Daenerys is called child of three despite her family tree connecting to only 2 of the trio , the repeated "three" visions in Dany's Qarth experience and of course the three dragons that came back to life from stone. 

It really striked me as odd that they suddently decided to conquer Westeros. I understood him going after Harren but the decision to conquer all the continent was very odd. Plus, the text ("Fire&Blood" and TWOIAF) tells that they often visited Old Town too. And I agree that the number 3 is significant to them.

[James Arryn]

On 1/2/2023 at 7:21 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I am not sure if the prophecy even exists in the books in terms of Aegon knowing about it and basing his invasion on it, and to be frank I would find it silly if it was added now because it's obviously a retroactive change.

I think what is most likely is that his outline to the HotD people included vague allusions to ambiguous prophecy…ie, how he likes his prophecies…but in the spirit of changing the shape of the books from multiple subjective perspectives to one omniscient perspective for the show, the prophecy got hardened down to specifics and George agreed to it, possibly because if push comes to shove he’d probably have to decide it definitively happened rather than definitively did not happen. 
 

So I don’t think it’s retroactive so much as GRRM being forced by circumstance to be direct where he prefers to be oblique. I don’t think the idea of Aegon being aware of the prophecy just occurred to him recently, I just don’t think he ever anticipated having to be explicit one way or the other and may not have ever really had to decide before.