Tyrion on Trial

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 and took her at knifepoint in the first place. She already had 'work'.

That's what Bronn told him anyway. I'm not disputing the account, but I think there is room for there to be more to the story. Her wearing the hand's chain suggests to me that the first time we see her in Tywin's bed might not have been her first time. So then when was it? How long has she been spying on Tyrion for his family? How much of her refusal to leave KL was legitimate love for her 'Lion of Lannister' and how much of it was because there would be real consequences for her if she did leave his side? Who knows, the whole thing with Cersei and Alayaya could have been deliberately cooked up to make Tyrion think he was in the clear. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We can agree that Jorah is a rapist.

Lol. Who'd he rape man? We can agree he makes unwanted sexual advances but just because he's seen in a whore house with some white girl doesn't mean he raped her.

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion never gave Shae the money he promised. He knocked her around.  And murdered her.

What money? She was his girlfriend, she's not punching a clock. She got paid I'm sure from the chef and whoever took care of Sansa. Which I guess is still Tyrion lol. She's never seen starving, I bet handmaidens make a decent living

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Masha could do nothing against Lady Catelyn

Not really, but she certainly didn't look out so I don't know anyone expects Tyrion to not be petty

[Craving Peaches]

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol. Who'd he rape man? We can agree he makes unwanted sexual advances but just because he's seen in a whore house with some white girl doesn't mean he raped her.

He raped 'Sunset Girl' because Sunset Girl did not consent to the sex.

29 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

That's what Bronn told him anyway. I'm not disputing the account, but I think there is room for there to be more to the story.

True enough.

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol. Who'd he rape man? We can agree he makes unwanted sexual advances but just because he's seen in a whore house with some white girl doesn't mean he raped her.

What money? She was his girlfriend, she's not punching a clock. She got paid I'm sure from the chef and whoever took care of Sansa. Which I guess is still Tyrion lol. She's never seen starving, I bet handmaidens make a decent living

Not really, but she certainly didn't look out so I don't know anyone expects Tyrion to not be petty

Shae was never his girlfriend.  She was a whore.  Tyrion kidded himself into believing she loved him.

Most whores in Volantis are slaves.  Fucking them is rape, whether done by Jorah or Tyrion.

[Craving Peaches]

Where I live the rules about what is and isn't rape are quite clear. No consent to penetrative sex = rape. And just because someone doesn't say 'no' doesn't mean they consent. Sunset Girl did not give consent. Now I know that often we like to look at things as the characters would by using people's views from the middle ages but I am not particularly keen on this because if we do that then marital rape doesn't exist, when it clearly is shown to occur in the story.

[Hugorfonics]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Shae was never his girlfriend.  She was a whore.  Tyrion kidded himself into believing she loved him.

Probably. But she was a whore, then she was a line cook and then a handmaiden.

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Most whores in Volantis are slaves.  Fucking them is rape, whether done by Jorah or Tyrion.

Ok, fair enough. Imo it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it though especially since irl there are sex workers who are in fact modern day slaves, not to mention the traditional relationship of pimp and escort is troublesome to say the least. 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where I live the rules about what is and isn't rape are quite clear. No consent to penetrative sex = rape. And just because someone doesn't say 'no' doesn't mean they consent. Sunset Girl did not give consent. Now I know that often we like to look at things as the characters would by using people's views from the middle ages but I am not particularly keen on this because if we do that then marital rape doesn't exist, when it clearly is shown to occur in the story.

The Sunset Girl, like Jeyne Poole, bears whip marks.  There is no way that either of them is consenting to sex.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Probably. But she was a whore, then she was a line cook and then a handmaiden.

Ok, fair enough. Imo it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it though especially since irl there are sex workers who are in fact modern day slaves, not to mention the traditional relationship of pimp and escort is troublesome to say the least. 

 

I don’t think it’s simplistic.  A slave who is used for sex is unconsenting.

[Castellan]

Strangling Shae and deciding to 'have another go' at the terrified red haired prostitute are revolting.

His relationship with Penny is interesting because he veers between pitying her and hating her for playing the dwarf role and 'not making big people angry', and becomes enraged when he thinks she is starting to treat him as a potential boyfriend. He gets paranoid. We shall see what happens. I can see him ending up Lord of the Rock and a cold, efficient frightening person like Tywin.

[Hugorfonics]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Now I know that often we like to look at things as the characters would by using people's views from the middle ages but I am not particularly keen on this because if we do that then marital rape doesn't exist, when it clearly is shown to occur in the story.

You don't think marital rape existed in the middle ages?

 

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don’t think it’s simplistic.  A slave who is used for sex is unconsenting.

I agree, I definitely think he took advantage of her, but I also think the world took advantage of her and all he did was try to have sex in a somewhat acceptable way in society. A far cry from Gregor or those bastards that did Lolly's in

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

You don't think marital rape existed in the middle ages?

Of course it did. What I am talking about is the prevailing view amongst men at the time period was that a husband could not rape his wife because, through the agreement of marriage, she had 'surrendered herself to him'. In fact this view remained prevalent for a while, it was not until the late 1980s where I live that we had a case where the courts clearly said, once and for all, that a husband could be found guilty of raping his wife.

[Hugorfonics]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Of course it did. What I am talking about is the prevailing view amongst men at the time period was that a husband could not rape his wife because, through the agreement of marriage, she had 'surrendered herself to him'. In fact this view remained prevalent for a while, it was not until the late 1980s where I live that we had a case where the courts clearly said, once and for all, that a husband could be found guilty of raping his wife.

Idk about prevailing view. Maybe prevailing justification or prevailing legal cop out, but like Robert knew he was violating Cersei so did many medieval husbands, and I guess some in the 80s too.

Where I'm from prostitution is illigal too though, and I think it was in the majority of  medieval christendom too

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Where I'm from prostitution is illigal too though, and I think it was in the majority of  medieval christendom too

Yes, but 'Sunset Girl' has no say in anything. That's the whole point. She was forced to be a sex slave, she was forced to have sex with Tyrion. It was all done under duress, she didn't consent, she couldn't refuse to perform because of how she'd be treated if she did.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk about prevailing view. Maybe prevailing justification or prevailing legal cop out, but like Robert knew he was violating Cersei so did many medieval husbands, and I guess some in the 80s too.

Oh I agree people knew exactly what they were doing but at the same time it was a strong view for a long period of time. For example, Baron Hume, an influential Scottish legal writer, wrote in his commentaries that a husband could not rape his wife and the courts upheld this for ages.

[Hugorfonics]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but 'Sunset Girl' has no say in anything. That's the whole point. She was forced to be a sex slave, she was forced to have sex with Tyrion. It was all done under duress, she didn't consent, she couldn't refuse to perform because of how she'd be treated if she did.

Right and in the modern day there are hookers who are sex slaves from other countries, or even locals who are under constant duress from their pimp.

I don't think this makes rando John a rapist. Something unpleasant, no doubt.

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Oh I agree people knew exactly what they were doing but at the same time it was a strong view for a long period of time. For example, Baron Hume, an influential Scottish legal writer, wrote in his commentaries that a husband could not rape his wife and the courts upheld this for ages.

I still think today there's plenty of states in America that have if not full legality behind them then plenty of loopholes to get away with spousal rape

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I still think today there's plenty of states in America that have if not full legality behind them then plenty of loopholes to get away with spousal rape

It used to be worse where I live too. Not only could a husband get away with raping his wife, they used to have the requirement that you needed to carry away/kidnap the woman before you could be found guilty. If you didn't have to overcome the poor lady to have your way then it didn't count.

[Nevets]

I can't get nearly as upset about Shae's death as most posters.  I know that if someone falsely testified against me, helping get me convicted of a capital offense I didn't do, I might very well feel more than a bit homicidal towards that person.

I realize that's not precisely why he did it, but it surely didn't help.  And no, I don't believe she was forced.  Her motive was more financial in nature (avoiding penury).  And being found in Tywin's bed leads to other possibilities that do her no credit either.