Is it within the realm of possibility that Cannibal is still alive?

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Like imagine instead of Euron stealing one of Dany’s dragons he finds big bad Cannibal and binds him with the dragonborn. By now if he was still alive, Cannibal would be far larger than Balerion ever was. Euron riding Cannibak would be terrifying.

[Craving Peaches]

Maybe, but I think there would be a touch more evidence if he was. But he could just be good at hiding.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe, but I think there would be a touch more evidence if he was. But he could just be good at hiding.

He ran off somewhere after Corlys’ funeral. Perhaps to Valyria, Sothoryos, or the Far East where dragons are said to have originated. Perhaps he flew to to the western continent.
 

It’s speculated he doesn’t descend from the same line as the Targaryen dragons, perhaps different lines have differing lifespans.

[chrisdaw]

Not likely, not impossible, but if it does pop up it will be in a very minor role (sort of like how it was used in the Dance story). To introduce a dragon out of nowhere for most readers and have it take centre stage would be poor story telling.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

15 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Not likely, not impossible, but if it does pop up it will be in a very minor role (sort of like how it was used in the Dance story). To introduce a dragon out of nowhere for most readers and have it take centre stage would be poor story telling.

I agree to an extent. But I think the sheer terror a Euron/Cannibal pair would cause would be amazing.

[astarkchoice]

Naah they seem to have all died out.

Something vastly impacted magic and mystical style beasts which now seem on the rise.

Balerion died at 200 which would hint they all die around that age if they live long enough, maybe as they get too big and old and slow they cant feed themselves enough for their bulk thus a natural downward sprial starts.

[sifth]

He'd be the oldest living dragon, in recorded history. Cannibal was no spring chicken during the dance and that was over 100 year ago.

[Lord Varys]

When it was still a kind of established fact - prior to the publication of FaB - that the Cannibal disappeared after the Dance I liked the idea that he might lay dormant in some collapsed cavern beneath the Dragonmount.

But with FaB making no mention of him disappearing it seems clear that FaB II is going to touch upon his ultimate fate - as it must on all the other Targaryen dragons. If there is the slightest doubt that one of the dragons is still alive then the last dragon dying in 153 AC won't be the last dragon.

And folks would be very wary to proclaim some crippled she-dragon the last dragon when there is, perhaps, a gigantic dragon monster still out there somewhere.

Even the carcass of Sheepstealer must have been resurfaced when the last dragon died in 153 AC. And Morning and Silverwing and all the dragons that might yet hatch during the reign of the Dragonbane must be confirmed to be dead as well.

I do expect some of the dragons that are yet alive - especially the Cannibal - to play a role in events unfolding during the reign of Aegon III. Especially the whole Harrenhal plotline revolving around the son of Alys Rivers. He will be a pain in the ass for Aegon III.

[Gilbert Green]

Yes, it is indeed possible that Cannibal is still alive.

For one thing, we really have no idea how long dragons live.  The "fire consumes but ice preserves" line may foreshadow dragons living longer in cold weather.   Also, Jorah points out that the Targ dragons were bred for war, and mostly died in war, where as Cannibal began life as a wild dragon.

Also, Cannibal may have had an egg inside him (her?) when he (she?) flew north.  So even if Cannibal is dead, there may still be a dragon or dragons where Cannibal went.

However, Euron will have not much to do with Cannibal any time.  He is headed for Slavers Bay, not Skagos.

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If there is the slightest doubt that one of the dragons is still alive then the last dragon dying in 153 AC won't be the last dragon.

"They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long."

Sounds like there is doubt to me.

And how on earth could anyone be absolutely certain?  The world is a big place.  The perspective of some Maester at the citadel can never reflect the whole of reality. 

[Gilbert Green]

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe, but I think there would be a touch more evidence if he was. But he could just be good at hiding.

Why would he need to be good at hiding?  It's not as though the Skagosi locals would be posting their videos on the internet.  And sailor's tales are always disbelieved.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

"They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long."

Sounds like there is doubt to me.

And how on earth could anyone be absolutely certain?  The world is a big place.  The perspective of some Maester at the citadel can never reflect the whole of reality. 

It is not just some maester's view but a more general take given by the author in AGoT where the appendix states that the last dragon died during the reign of Aegon III. This is elaborated on in THK where Dunk remembers that Ser Arlan of Pennytree saw the last dragon in KL as a child.

Now, of course, this doesn't have to be the whole truth about dragons in the world, especially since Bran actually thinks he sees some dragons in his vision of world in his dream during his coma ... but nobody would actually think the last Targaryen dragon was the last Targaryen dragon if there was still a huge named Targaryen dragon unaccounted for in Westeros. And that's what the Cannibal is - he is a huge Targaryen dragon with a name.

They would also need confirmation that Sheepstealer is dead by then, or else everybody remembering Nettles and her dragon (and Aegon III sure as hell should remember the woman that played a huge role in his father's death) would pause and wonder whether Sheepstealer is now the last (Targaryen) dragon in the world.

[Gilbert Green]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not just some maester's view but a more general take given by the author in AGoT where the appendix states that the last dragon died during the reign of Aegon III.

The appendix also states that Jon is Ned's son.  All information we are given reflects a perspective.  The perspective of the appendix reflects that of a sort of general common knowledge, and does not reflect information outside of general common knowledge.

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

This is elaborated on in THK where Dunk remembers that Ser Arlan of Pennytree saw the last dragon in KL as a child.

Now, of course, this doesn't have to be the whole truth about dragons in the world, especially since Bran actually thinks he sees some dragons in his vision of world in his dream during his coma ... but nobody would actually think the last Targaryen dragon was the last Targaryen dragon if there was still a huge named Targaryen dragon unaccounted for in Westeros. And that's what the Cannibal is - he is a huge Targaryen dragon with a name.

They would also need confirmation that Sheepstealer is dead by then, or else everybody remembering Nettles and her dragon (and Aegon III sure as hell should remember the woman that played a huge role in his father's death) would pause and wonder whether Sheepstealer is now the last (Targaryen) dragon in the world.

They never got this confirmation.  Nettles took Sheepsteaker towards the Bay of Crabs, never to be seen again in Court of Castle.  Even if the death was somehow confirmed, there is no way to know if dragon eggs were not left behind to hatch. 

"Last dragon" means "last known dragon".  Nothing else makes sense.  Nobody can claim omniscience.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

The appendix also states that Jon is Ned's son.  All information we are given reflects a perspective.  The perspective of the appendix reflects that of a sort of general common knowledge, and does not reflect information outside of general common knowledge.

Legally, Jon is Ned's son. The book doesn't state that he is his biological son. Ditto with Cersei's children. But the historical facts the appendices give about long-dead kings and the like are accurate. That's not information filtered through a some in-universe character.

8 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

They never got this confirmation.  Nettles took Sheepsteaker towards the Bay of Crabs, never to be seen again in Court of Castle.  Even if the death was somehow confirmed, there is no way to know if dragon eggs were not left behind to hatch.

Nobody ever said Sheepstealer ever flew back to court or castle. He was seen again after that whole thing when the army marching to the Vale sent there by Thaddeus Rowan encountered him and Nettles.

This is apparently the last time civilized people saw the living Sheepstealer ... but the people of the Vale and others would eventually have learned where the hell the dragon carcass was. Those beasts are too large to disappear and there are people living in the Mountains of the Moon.

8 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

"Last dragon" means "last known dragon".  Nothing else makes sense.  Nobody can claim omniscience.

When folks in-universe use that term, yes. But to use it they must also believe the dragon in question being the last - which they simply would not if they didn't know/believe that the Cannibal and Sheepstealer were or might still be out there. In fact, nobody would believe that the dragons were extinct if not just one but two of the Targaryen dragons might still be out there. That just doesn't fly.

[Gilbert Green]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Legally, Jon is Ned's son. The book doesn't state that he is his biological son.

It says "bastard son".  Not "adopted son".  Bastard sons are biological sons.  Obviously.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever said Sheepstealer ever flew back to court or castle. He was seen again after that whole thing when the army marching to the Vale sent there by Thaddeus Rowan encountered him and Nettles.

This is apparently the last time civilized people saw the living Sheepstealer ... but the people of the Vale and others would eventually have learned where the hell the dragon carcass was. Those beasts are too large to disappear and there are people living in the Mountains of the Moon.

There are rumors of a dragon living in the Mountains of the Moon, yes.  It is plausibly Sheepstealer, yes, but evidently never confirmed to be Sheepstealer.  Its death was never reported.   I guess Burnt Men don't post videos on the internet or sent ravens to the Citadel.  So we don't know.

The Mountains of the Moon are HUGE.  And nobody goes there for fear of the Mountain Clans.  They could have Godzilla in one of its valleys, for all we know.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

When folks in-universe use that term, yes. But to use it they must also believe the dragon in question being the last - which they simply would not if they didn't know/believe that the Cannibal and Sheepstealer were or might still be out there. In fact, nobody would believe that the dragons were extinct if not just one but two of the Targaryen dragons might still be out there. That just doesn't fly.

It flies with me.  153 was when the Targs lost their last dragon.   Anything outside of their knowledge is outside of their knowledge.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Cannibal could have flown off to anywhere in the world. It would be ironic if Euron somehow summons him to Oldtown with the blood magic. If cannibal is still alive then he’d be absolutely massive. Given Euron’s disdain for social customs and love for doing the taboo just because he can, having Cannibal would be fitting.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Cannibal could have flown off to anywhere in the world. It would be ironic if Euron somehow summons him to Oldtown with the blood magic. If cannibal is still alive then he’d be absolutely massive. Given Euron’s disdain for social customs and love for doing the taboo just because he can, having Cannibal would be fitting.

The dragons Euron knows about are in Slavers' Bay.  And that's where he's going.  There is no indication he is going to Oldtown.  IF there are dragons on Skagos, Euron does not seem to be involved in that particular plot thread.  Maybe others are (Davos, Rickon, Osha).

I'm not sure I agree that Cannibal would be absolutely massive.  I tend to suspect that a long-lived dragon would not grow particularly large or particularly fast.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

It says "bastard son".  Not "adopted son".  Bastard sons are biological sons.  Obviously.

But like you can acknowledge a son born in wedlock that isn't your biological son you can also acknowledge a bastard that wasn't fathered by you - for instance, so far the only 'confirmation' we have that Daemon Blackfyre is the son of Aegon IV is the word of Aegon the Unworthy. Which means it could just as well be a lie.

To be sure - I'm not saying the appendices tell us things they don't. I just point out that the historical knowledge they give - Targaryen kings, brief histories of the great houses in the appendix of AGoT, etc. - are to be considered canon. They are not knowledge filtered through POV narrators.

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

There are rumors of a dragon living in the Mountains of the Moon, yes.  It is plausibly Sheepstealer, yes, but evidently never confirmed to be Sheepstealer.  Its death was never reported.   I guess Burnt Men don't post videos on the internet or sent ravens to the Citadel.  So we don't know.

My point is that we don't know if his death was recorded or not. Just as we don't know what happened to Silverwing or Morning. FaB only confirms that Nettles/Sheepstealer never returned to court and castle. Not that people didn't eventually learn what happened to the dragon. I don't expect the Vale men, etc. actually witness the death of Sheepstealer. But I expect FaB II to reveal that the court of Aegon III and the Realm at large heard about some Vale men chancing upon a dragon carcass in the Mountains of the Moon, possibly even sending the skull to KL so that it can adorn the throne room of Aegon III. Perhaps people would even argue what dragon that was, like they debate what dragon Byron Swann wanted to slay.

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

The Mountains of the Moon are HUGE.  And nobody goes there for fear of the Mountain Clans.  They could have Godzilla in one of its valleys, for all we know.

They are huge, but dragons are huge, too. And people talk. The clansmen talk to each other and even to the men of the Vale. People learned about the Burned Men and their customs, too, just as they learned about the fire witch and her dragon. And the people who cared about that - which the Arryns certainly would once they heard about that since a clanswoman with a dragon could, you know, easily enough torch the Eyrie - would have also kept their eyes open about any news about this particular dragon.

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

It flies with me.  153 was when the Targs lost their last dragon.   Anything outside of their knowledge is outside of their knowledge.

They could only have lost their last dragon then if they believed all their other dragons were dead then. Which does include - at this point - Morning, Silverwing, Sheepstealer, and the Cannibal.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But like you can acknowledge a son born in wedlock that isn't your biological son you can also acknowledge a bastard that wasn't fathered by you - for instance, so far the only 'confirmation' we have that Daemon Blackfyre is the son of Aegon IV is the word of Aegon the Unworthy. Which means it could just as well be a lie.

I'm not saying that "he's my bastard son" is never a lie; nor am I saying it is never a mistake.  I'm not saying that such statements are infallible. I am merely saying that it means something.

A bastard son means a biological son.  Lies and mistakes about such topics are beside the point.  I'm not saying the appendix might not be wrong.  I am agreeing with you that it might be wrong.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

To be sure - I'm not saying the appendices tell us things they don't. I just point out that the historical knowledge they give - Targaryen kings, brief histories of the great houses in the appendix of AGoT, etc. - are to be considered canon. They are not knowledge filtered through POV narrators.

The appendices are an aid to the reader, to help them follow the story.  They do their job as long as they are consistent with the current state of reader knowledge.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

My point is that we don't know if his death was recorded or not. Just as we don't know what happened to Silverwing or Morning. FaB only confirms that Nettles/Sheepstealer never returned to court and castle. Not that people didn't eventually learn what happened to the dragon. I don't expect the Vale men, etc. actually witness the death of Sheepstealer.

We don't know much.  I agree.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But I expect FaB II to reveal that the court of Aegon III and the Realm at large heard about some Vale men chancing upon a dragon carcass in the Mountains of the Moon, possibly even sending the skull to KL so that it can adorn the throne room of Aegon III.

The Mountains of the Moon are HUGE.  Why would it be found if alive?  Why would it be found if dead?

Do you think the Mountains of the Moon are a series of mole-hills that can be surveyed from the rooftop of a barn?  Do you have no idea of the vast scale of the things?

No news is no news is no news.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They are huge, but dragons are huge, too.

Dragons are absolutely miniscule compared to Mountains.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And people talk.

And Maesters and Lords don't believe the tales of smallfolk and illiterate barbarians.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The clansmen talk to each other and even to the men of the Vale. People learned about the Burned Men and their customs, too, just as they learned about the fire witch and her dragon.

Before the release of TWOIAF, you probably would have, and probably did, argue that their cannot have been any hidden dragons in Westeros because we would have heard about it yet.  Now, it turns out, there was indeed a dragon in Westeros, that you did not hear about -- until you heard about it. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And the people who cared about that - which the Arryns certainly would once they heard about that since a clanswoman with a dragon could, you know, easily enough torch the Eyrie - would have also kept their eyes open about any news about this particular dragon.

And then what?  They would have told Tyrion all about it during his visit?   I seem to recall they had other things on their minds.  He did not ask about dragons, and nobody told him about dragons.  Not that they'd necessarily know, not having explored all the hidden valleys of the Mountains of the Moon.

They did not get around to telling him all the local smallfolk tales about Snarks and Grumkins and the like either.  I'm sure such stories exist, though.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe their helicopters were broken and therefore that they could not launch a vast aerial reconnaissance of every hidden valley and inaccessable peak, in a series of enormous and barely populated mountain ranges?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They could only have lost their last dragon then if they believed all their other dragons were dead then.

Your position is that the phrase "last dragon" would never be used unless the person using it was omniscient.  I say just assume no claim of omniscience, because such an assumption is patently unreasonable.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Which does include - at this point - Morning, Silverwing, Sheepstealer, and the Cannibal.

They could have "lost" their last dragon if all these other dragons were "lost" earlier.  When you have zero dragons left in your custody, then you have zero dragons left in your custody.

Cannibal was never controlled by a Targaryen.  It was a wild dragon.  Sheepstealer was never controlled by a Targaryen.  It was controlled by Nettles.  Silverwing was once a Targaryen dragon, but went wild almost 170 years ago.  We do not know if she died or disappeared.  And we will not know until F&B2 tells us.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

The appendices are an aid to the reader, to help them follow the story.  They do their job as long as they are consistent with the current state of reader knowledge.

They do serve as a summary about the characters and their (official) relations in the books, yes. But - yet again: They also do introduce new knowledge to the reader. Especially in the first novel.

And regarding to the last dragon, etc. AGoT the novel is another source, as is THK.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

The Mountains of the Moon are HUGE.  Why would it be found if alive?  Why would it be found if dead?

Again, my point is that smart people - and the maesters writing Westerosi are not dumb, and neither are the king's advisers and officials - wouldn't conclude the last dragon was the last dragon if they had reason to believe that (at least) 1-2 dragons were still out there.

Not sure what's so difficult to understand there. No smart person would proclaim a dragon dead because he didn't check in with the royal court for a couple of years. And from 135 AC (the year the army of the regency government encountered Sheepstealer in the Mountains of the Moon) and the year 153 AC - when the last dragon died - it is not even two decades.

Hell, if the Targaryens had reason to believe or only hope that large dragons were still out there somewhere in the wild then the brave youngsters would have travelled the Mountains of the Moon to mount them - especially valiant and courageous youths like Aemon the Dragonknight and the Young Dragon.

And why the dragon would be found if living or dead is obvious: It was found by the clansmen while alive, so they, at least, would sure as hell know when there was no longer a living but a dead dragon in the cave of the fire witch. After all, they went regularly there to face the dragon and get themselves burned. And dragon carcasses don't disappear easily. Vhagar's carcass was recovered from the Gods Eye years after her death.

But honestly I'd actually expect that Sheepstealer will fall to some dragonslayer - either one from the ranks of the clansmen who are not Burned Men or to some valiant knight dispatched by the Lords of the Vale. Because I said - they would have no interest in having a fucking dragon in their neighborhood.

Silverwing might also fall to a dragonslayer. Aegon III is going to close his eyes to stuff like that - ignoring it or perhaps even secretly or not so secretly encouraging his lords to put down dangerous dragons.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

And Maesters and Lords don't believe the tales of smallfolk and illiterate barbarians.

As you must know - an entire royal army witnessed the dragon in the Mountains of the Moon - and he killed a dozen or so men when they chanced upon him. So the people in charge knew of Sheepstealer's presence independent from the tales of the clansmen.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

Before the release of TWOIAF, you probably would have, and probably did, argue that their cannot have been any hidden dragons in Westeros because we would have heard about it yet.  Now, it turns out, there was indeed a dragon in Westeros, that you did not hear about -- until you heard about it. 

I didn't. In fact, I've nothing against the notion that there might some hidden dragon somewhere - but again, for the reasons given above: not one of the named dragons history knows about. Because the claim the Cannibal disappears means people didn't assume he was dead. Just gone. If it said he folks assumed he was dead (for this or that reason) then it would be different. Ditto with Sheepstealer.

My point is that I expect FaB II to deal with all the dragons yet alive - and with all the dragons that might yet hatch. It could be that FaB II gives a credible version of the 'the Cannibal disappeared and was eventually presumed dead' story. But I doubt it that George created a cannibalistic dragon just to not use him at all.

We will get an addendum to the Dance of the Dragon with the whole plot about Alys Rivers and her son (who might already have another dragon) holding Harrenhal. And that struggle might involve the last dragon battle in Westerosi history. Morning is still alive and could die yet in battle with her rider ... and somebody might yet claim Silverwing and/or the Cannibal.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

And then what?  They would have told Tyrion all about it during his visit?   I seem to recall they had other things on their minds.  He did not ask about dragons, and nobody told him about dragons.  Not that they'd necessarily know, not having explored all the hidden valleys of the Mountains of the Moon.

They did not get around to telling him all the local smallfolk tales about Snarks and Grumkins and the like either.  I'm sure such stories exist, though.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe their helicopters were broken and therefore that they could not launch a vast aerial reconnaissance of every hidden valley and inaccessable peak, in a series of enormous and barely populated mountain ranges?

Over 150 years pass between the Dance and the main series - there would have been scores of skirmishes between the clansmen and the Vale in those years. And during peace times people would interact, too.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

Your position is that the phrase "last dragon" would never be used unless the person using it was omniscient.  I say just assume no claim of omniscience, because such an assumption is patently unreasonable.

No, it has nothing to do with omniscience ... people would simply not call a dragon the last dragon if they had fucking reason to believe others might still be out there in their very own land. That's really not hard to grasp.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

Cannibal was never controlled by a Targaryen.  It was a wild dragon.  Sheepstealer was never controlled by a Targaryen.  It was controlled by Nettles.  Silverwing was once a Targaryen dragon, but went wild almost 170 years ago.  We do not know if she died or disappeared.  And we will not know until F&B2 tells us.

It is irrelevant who controlled those dragons. They are Targaryen dragons because they hatched and lived on their ancestral island (before they were claimed by a rider). The Targaryen dragons in this sense are the last dragons those books speak of, and there wouldn't be a last of those dragons if a unknown bunch of them just 'disappeared' and might thus be still alive.

We know there were two last dragons - crippled she-dragons that hatched on Dragonstone which didn't live very long. Tyrion tells us this in AGoT. By the time they hatched all the other dragons must have already been dead or presumed dead - else they wouldn't have been the last dragons but they and whatever other dragon was yet considered to be alive.

And the timeline very much fits with the bigger dragons the Targaryens had left (then Morning, whatever dragon Alys' son may have or acquire in the future, and perhaps even Silverwing and/or the Cannibal) dying during a confrontation around 150 AC. Because House Lothston only is given Harrenhal in 151 AC - indicating that Aegon III only regained controlled of the castle around that time. After all, there is no reason why Aegon III should leave Harrenhal without a proper lords for fifteen years - no king before or after did that. There are other such hints - the belated burial of Larys Strong at Harrenhal, the recovery of Vhagar's carcass, Aemond's corpse and Dark Sister buried in his eye taking place years after the Dance.