of sins and madness

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, my thought about Benioff and Weiss is that a lot of the aspects that go off the rails in later seasons had their roots in the original books, just writ large. Euron, for example, is a walking diabolus ex machina for the last couple seasons. Daenerys losing her navy? Euron. The Unsullied getting stranded on the other half of the continent? Euron. Rhaegal getting shot down despite being high up and where the ballista would have lost height? Euron. So is Ramsay in A Clash for Kings where nobody pays any mind to him despite the fact they know he's a threat, like Donella Hornwood getting kidnapped by only Ramsay on her way home, Rodrik not realizing he didn't do a thorough job with finding him after finding "Reek" and losing an arm and his life because he didn't realize the man leading 600 Bolton soldiers could only be Ramsay, that would be like Dany forgetting about the Iron Fleet. The darker directions many characters make (Sansa, Bran, Arya, Daenerys, Cersei, to give a few)? All are on their way in the books with nothing to change their courses.

Yea for sure. It got worse and worse. Thing is no matter how much of a watered down asoiaf it isz it's still asoiaf 

I do think Ramsay got super lucky and such but I also think lots of his luck was brought by Theon, and then back and forth, because the relationship of Reek was made in the heavens.

Seriously, right off at S2 I was so pissed with no Ramsay, like why would you take such an awesome character away, especially when you know he's coming back? (I did enjoy Ramsay in HBO tho, good actor from what I remember)

HBOs in it for the quick cash and D&D made that happen. Cant really fault em I guess. That's American entertainment, sub division of American capitalism. Quick cash now better then anything else in the world, I agree lol. I'm a little disappointed in some of these book spinoffs as well because they sometimes feel rushed or not fleshed out as well but I respect the money, and I like looking at the maps.

[Many-Faced Votary]

23 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tokar is the attire of every freeborn

 

The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind. Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power.

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

 

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea for sure. It got worse and worse. Thing is no matter how much of a watered down asoiaf it isz it's still asoiaf 

I do think Ramsay got super lucky and such but I also think lots of his luck was brought by Theon, and then back and forth, because the relationship of Reek was made in the heavens.

Seriously, right off at S2 I was so pissed with no Ramsay, like why would you take such an awesome character away, especially when you know he's coming back? (I did enjoy Ramsay in HBO tho, good actor from what I remember)

HBOs in it for the quick cash and D&D made that happen. Cant really fault em I guess. That's American entertainment, sub division of American capitalism. Quick cash now better then anything else in the world, I agree lol. I'm a little disappointed in some of these book spinoffs as well because they sometimes feel rushed or not fleshed out as well but I respect the money, and I like looking at the maps.

Well, making Dunk and Egg is going to be impossible thanks to Daeron being adapted out.

[The Stannis Inquisition]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, making Dunk and Egg is going to be impossible thanks to Daeron being adapted out.

Money, uh, finds a way.

[Many-Faced Votary]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, making Dunk and Egg is going to be impossible thanks to Daeron being adapted out.

They don't care about the canon set by Game of Thrones, nor should they. By this logic, there wouldn't have been a House of the Dragon, because according to the abomination there never was a Queen Regnant of Westeros before Carol Cheryl, and the HotD prophecy conflicts with the abomination's ending.

[Corvo the Crow]

36 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I don't think it's worth conversing with trolls, but I do think it's worth disproving easily disproven things:

The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind. Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power.

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

 

 

I think it's worth disproving easily disproven things so here it goes:

 

Kraznys turned back to his fellows. Once again they conferred among themselves. The translator had told Dany their names, but it was hard to keep them straight. Four of the men seemed to be named Grazdan, presumably after Grazdan the Great who had founded Old Ghis in the dawn of days. They all looked alike; thick fleshy men with amber skin, broad noses, dark eyes. Their wiry hair was black, or a dark red, or that queer mixture of red and black that was peculiar to Ghiscari. All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor.

 

 

Also, calling other members of the forums trolls is something that is not accepted and you have done it twice now, so I'm reporting you and ignoring you.

[Many-Faced Votary]

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Kraznys turned back to his fellows. Once again they conferred among themselves. The translator had told Dany their names, but it was hard to keep them straight. Four of the men seemed to be named Grazdan, presumably after Grazdan the Great who had founded Old Ghis in the dawn of days. They all looked alike; thick fleshy men with amber skin, broad noses, dark eyes. Their wiry hair was black, or a dark red, or that queer mixture of red and black that was peculiar to Ghiscari. All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor.

Interesting how you completely ignored what I posted, which is the best description of what the tokar is and what it represents in the series, and why it literally (physically) could not be a garment for anyone other than slave masters.

 

Just to note, your own passage contradicts you:

Kraznys turned back to his fellows. -> his "fellows" are other slavers; only slavers are wearing tokars here

And the line you put in boldface showed that the tokar was not a garment worn by slaves, not that the tokar was generally worn by the freeborn. Everything else we learn about it shows that it is a slave master's garment.

 

Yet another direct link of "tokar" to "master" here:

Reznak would have summoned another tokar next, but Dany insisted that he call upon a freedman. Thereafter she alternated between the former masters and the former slaves.

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

 

I further suppose Dany originally wanted to get rid of a symbol of freedmen rather than masters for fun, and she could be considered a "lady of Old Ghis" by wearing a garment of freedmen?

Dany had wanted to ban the tokar when she took Meereen, but her advisors had convinced her otherwise. “The Mother of Dragons must don the tokar or be forever hated,” warned the Green Grace, Galazza Galare. “In the wools of Westeros or a gown of Myrish lace, Your Radiance shall forever remain a stranger amongst us, a grotesque outlander, a barbarian conqueror. Meereen’s queen must be a lady of Old Ghis.” Brown Ben Plumm, the captain of the Second Sons, had put it more succinctly. “Man wants to be the king o’ the rabbits, he best wear a pair o’ floppy ears.”

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Those "people" who were "murdered" were the vilest of slave masters who tried to get Dany to sack other cities to "bloody" the Unsullied. Instead, she decided to free slaves.

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"

"Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire.

Daenerys III, A Storm of Swords

You summoned up one of *them*.

Corvo’s sympathies lie just as much with slave owners as the other trolls’ lie with the Boltons and Freys.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I don't think it's worth conversing with trolls, but I do think it's worth disproving easily disproven things:

The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind. Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power.

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

 

 

Also this from Tyrion X in ADWD, when he's on the auction block.

The bidders sat on wooden benches sipping fruit drinks. A few were being fanned by slaves. Many wore tokars, that peculiar garment beloved by the old blood of Slaver's Bay, as elegant as it was impractical.

The Tokar is not worn by shopkeepers, or free servants.  It is the garment of the slaver, the master who does not need to work for a living.

The argument that Dany ordered the massacre of the ordinary free people of Astapor is, bluntly a lie.  It also begs the question of who exactly, Cleon enslaved, if these people were all dead.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Then they were freed. After that point as a matter of law they were res nullius so incapable of being owned by Daenerys or anyone else. You cannot own a free man. The Unsullied then chose to work for Daenerys and are now in the position of any other soldiers who have chosen to work for a ruler.

Killings during in battle almost never count as murder. If we are claiming Daenerys is a murderer for ordering her troops to attack people in battle then every lord in Westeros is a murderer. Every commander everywhere.

Most soldiers who get killed in battle in Westeros are members of the lower classes who have no choice whether they get to fight.  When their lord summons, they must come.

But that is, as you say, insufficient to deem those who kill them as murderers.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

 

This is the case for "the ends justify the means". I believe strongly that ASoIaF is not making this case (or at least not portraying it as correct).

The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly.

What is the life of one child against a kingdom? Everything.

Life is not a series of train dilemmas, where there are only two options with predetermined outcomes.

I think greater evils are committed by abandoning morality to practicality than the reverse, and this story reflects that as well.

 

However, life (at least for conscientious people in power) sometimes involves train dllemmas.  Robb, for example, deliberately sacrifices some of his soldiers in a feint, in his first battle, in order to achieve victory.

I don't condemn Robb for that, because it is his job, as commander, to consider the greater good.

In the case of Edric Dayne, well, whatever Stannis may claim, there is no pressing need to sacrifice him for the greater good. And, if sacrifice is required, one should always consider whether the best ethical option is self-sacrifice.

If the Wall is breached, then perhaps there may be no option but to burn Shireen.  But, if the fight can be won by sacrificing oneself, and letting Shireen live, that is much the better option.

 

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

However, life (at least for conscientious people in power) sometimes involves train dllemmas.  Robb, for example, deliberately sacrifices some of his soldiers in a feint, in his first battle, in order to achieve victory.

Rarely if ever. Train problems are academic exercises and are inherently unrealistic.

In fact this example with Robb kind of illustrates that. He is presented with the choice of advancing on either Harenhall or Riverrun, and creates a third option, splitting his forces.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't condemn Robb for that, because it is his job, as commander, to consider the greater good.

I'm not sure what the greater good is, or whether Robb going to war supports that, let alone hypothetical changes to his battleplan.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

In the case of Edric Dayne, well, whatever Stannis may claim, there is no pressing need to sacrifice him for the greater good. And, if sacrifice is required, one should always consider whether the best ethical option is self-sacrifice.

Edric Storm.

"He is only one baseborn boy, against all the boys of Westeros, and all the girls as well. Against all the children that might ever be born, in all the kingdoms of the world."

Melisandre presents it as pretty pressing, and in the form of a train problem, two choices with predetermined outcomes.

Reality, even as portrayed in the story, doesn't work that way.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

If the Wall is breached, then perhaps there may be no option but to burn Shireen.  But, if the fight can be won by sacrificing oneself, and letting Shireen live, that is much the better option.

Burning children alive is not the way, no matter what excuses are made about the "greater good."