I am not convinced by Lemongate

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Right. To ignore so much of the text and dismiss an obvious repeated plot point is wild… but here you go…

Plot points are not repeated. Plot points are turning points in the story. Dany has three major plot-points, like most character arcs. Usually called first plot-point, mid-point, final plot-point. Dany's three are symbolized by her three fires.

First plot point is Drogo's pyre. This is the end of the first act of her story, where Dany's dragons hatch and she begins her journey as her own queen, even though she only has a small following.

Second plot point is upcoming at the end of her second act when she will wake the dragon and undo the bind she is in in Meereen by destroying the slavers with dragonfire. The black-walled heart of Volantis will be the second fire. This is where she will turn from queen to dragonqueen. This is foreshadowed by Drogon replacing the Harpy at the top of the Great Pyramid of Meereen. Dany, the dragon, will replace the slavers at the top of the food chain in Essos. This is where the Targaryen coin turns towards madness, but it hasn't landed yet.

Third plot point will come near the end of her third act. Lightbringer will be the third fire she lights, when she sacrifices herself to save her realm, and this is where she turns from dragonqueen to true queen. This is the greatness side of the Targaryen coin and when it lands the world can breath again.

Her story turns on her plot points.

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I have no idea what you are talking about. Doesn’t feel like you are talking about the text of ASoIaF.

That's the problem it seems.

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

First plot point is Drogo's pyre. This is the end of the first act of her story, where Dany's dragons hatch and she begins her journey as her own queen, even though she only has a small following.

That’s when Dany becomes the dragon queen.  It’s the birth of her dragons which cause her Khalasar to truly make her their Khaleesi i.e. queen, as opposed to simply the wife of their Khal.

13 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Second plot point is upcoming at the end of her second act when she will wake the dragon and undo the bind she is in in Meereen by destroying the slavers with dragonfire.

I’d argue that her second plot point has already occurred she takes over Meereen.  This plot point ends in the same place that her first plot point ended, when she’s taken back to the Dothraki Sea.

None of this is contingent on her being the legal daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.  Everything is contingent on her being the Mother of Dragons.

[three-eyed monkey]

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’d argue that her second plot point has already occurred she takes over Meereen.  This plot point ends in the same place that her first plot point ended, when she’s taken back to the Dothraki Sea.

It's the second fire, when she burns Volantis and ends her second act with a victory over the slavers, after which she will begin her third act and turn for home.

31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

None of this is contingent on her being the legal daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.  Everything is contingent on her being the Mother of Dragons.

No but her whole arc works better if she is a dragon rather than a random with the characteristics of a dragon who was swapped in by Doran for no sensible reason.

 

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

No but her whole arc works better if she is a dragon rather than a random with the characteristics of a dragon who was swapped in by Doran for no sensible reason.

Sigh.  It keeps coming back to this.  You and a number of posters have decided to be truly special, Dany needs to be the true born daughter of Aerys and Rahella.  Which is complete elitist bullshit.

Insofar as dragons are concerned there is nothing special about the Targaryen bloodline descended from Viserys I and the daughter of the Lysenian banker.  I.e. the Targaryens post Dance.  Despite the fact that they and their descendants were the only ones who had access to dragon eggs, they never were able to hatch them.

Dragons could give a crap as to whether your parents were united in a royal ceremony in Baelor’s Sept or whether they were united in a Lysenian pillow house.  What they are attuned to is the bloodline that made Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives dragon riders.

What makes Dany special is that she has the right bloodline (no matter how she came across it) and she had the fortitude to make the necessary sacrifices.  That’s what makes her the Mother of Dragons.

That may be why Quaithe keeps imploring her to remember who she is, that her dragons remember.

And while you are arguing that there is no sensible reason, for Doran to have swapped children, I disagree.  Viserys true sister is the coin to purchase their alliance, but they weren’t going to act unless Viserys could come up with his own army.  Once they took Viserys’ sister, he no longer had the necessary coin to purchase the army.  So they give Viserys a stand in, and it’s his job to make her look legit so he can dupe someone into supplying him the army he needs.

Once again, it’s why Dany becomes so dispensable to these plotters.  They know she’s not legit, like you, they think she’s some “rando”.  It’s why Viserys is willing, even eager, to give her up to Drogo despite the fact that he’s made it clear that the only one worthy to be his bride is his own blood.  

[three-eyed monkey]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sigh.  It keeps coming back to this.  You and a number of posters have decided to be truly special, Dany needs to be the true born daughter of Aerys and Rahella.  Which is complete elitist bullshit.

That's not my point as I've explained a number of times. Dany's arc is about a girl who is a member of the political elite but who learns that it is complete bullshit. The story is anti elite, told from the point of view of characters who are mainly elite, it's the nobles who play the game of thrones afterall, but need to learn it's bullshit and put it aside to save the realm.

Calling me elitist or suggesting that I have an elitist position does nothing for your argument.

You don't want Dany to be exceptional, yet you need her to have that exceptional bloodline, which just shows how flawed your logic is.

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

What makes Dany special is that she has the right bloodline

Yes, because she is a Targaryen.

25 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And while you are arguing that there is no sensible reason, for Doran to have swapped children, I disagree.  Viserys true sister is the coin to purchase their alliance, but they weren’t going to act unless Viserys could come up with his own army.  Once they took Viserys’ sister, he no longer had the necessary coin to purchase the army.  So they give Viserys a stand in, and it’s his job to make her look legit so he can dupe someone into supplying him the army he needs.

You believe that, fine. I don't buy it for a minute. I believe Doran sent his brother to sign a secret marriage pact to marry his daughter to Viserys, but then Viserys died and Dany took up the cause, so then Doran had to rearrange his shit and send Quentyn to Dany instead in the hope she might marry him.

34 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Once again, it’s why Dany becomes so dispensable to these plotters.  They know she’s not legit, like you, they think she’s some “rando”.

I don't think she is not legit, you do. You think she's a "rando" with an exceptional bloodline.

36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s why Viserys is willing, even eager, to give her up to Drogo despite the fact that he’s made it clear that the only one worthy to be his bride is his own blood.

Viserys wanted an army to get his kingdom back and several years of trying to win support had failed. Again, it's more powerful if he sells his actual sister for this rather than someone Doran swapped in.

 

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That's not my point as I've explained a number of times. Dany's arc is about a girl who is a member of the political elite but who learns that it is complete bullshit. The story is anti elite, told from the point of view of characters who are mainly elite, it's the nobles who play the game of thrones afterall, but need to learn it's bullshit and put it aside to save the realm.

Dany, whether or not she's truly the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella is not and never was a member of the political elite.  The Targaryen dynasty was over by the time she was born.  Other than Viserys telling her that she's a princess, she hasn't had any experience in being one.  And Viserys sure doesn't treat her like royalty, in fact just the opposite.  So it's not the case of a girl who grew up in privilege only to learn it's "bullshit".  She grew up, often in the streets with under the care of an abusive brother.  The only time she was treated like royalty was after she married Drogo and became pregnant with his child. (Well that and when they were getting her ready to be sold to Drogo).

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Calling me elitist or suggesting that I have an elitist position does nothing for your argument.

I assume you're not an elitist..  I am suggesting, however,  that saying you have to be a legitimate Targaryen to become the Mother of Dragons is an elitist position.  I agree that the books tend to promote that viewpoint at least on the surface because it's mainly told through POV of nobility.  But if you look deeper you should realize why it's not a valid position.

In fact all the evidence we're given, shows that legitimate Targaryens can't hatch dragons, and haven't been able to hatch dragons for almost 200 years.  And this is despite the fact that they jealously hoarded all the dragon eggs for themselves.

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

You don't want Dany to be exceptional, yet you need her to have that exceptional bloodline, which just shows how flawed your logic is.

I never said Dany wasn't exceptional.  She's extremely exceptional.  What I'm arguing is that to be exceptional she doesn't have to be a legitimate Targaryen.  

As for the bloodline, it's GRRM who repeatedly gives evidence that the Targaryen bloodline used to be quite exceptional, at least when it came to dragons.  It's why in the first book, we're told that they wed brother to sister to keep their bloodline pure.  And in the first book, we learn about the Dance of the dragons where instead of marrying, the brother went to war with his sister, and it was after that event that the last of the dragons died.

A logical takeaway is that they lost their dragons when there was a schism between brother and sister.  And while he's created a lot of window dressing as the story went on, if you look closely, you'll still realize what a fundamental change happened after the Dance.  The female dragon riders married into House Velaryon, the male dragon rider's line ultimately ended with Daeron I and Baelor the Blessed, with his daughters forming Houses Blackfyre, Plumm, and Longwaters.  While the main royal line came from a Targaryen who could not hatch his dragon and the daughter of a Lysenian banker who has no history of dragon riding or hatching.

And in the meantime, House Velaryon and House Targaryen never did rejoin.  I think GRRM did that intentionally.  He didn't want the last Houses with dragon rider ancestors rejoining the Targaryen line.

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, because she is a Targaryen.

And there is the elitist position which I was referring, to hatch dragons you need to be a legitimate Targaryen.  I'm arguing the opposite.  To hatch dragons you couldn't be a legitimate Targaryen because their family line proved they couldn't do it.

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

You believe that, fine. I don't buy it for a minute. I believe Doran sent his brother to sign a secret marriage pact to marry his daughter to Viserys, but then Viserys died and Dany took up the cause, so then Doran had to rearrange his shit and send Quentyn to Dany instead in the hope she might marry him.

Ok, we're on the same page for much of this.  I too believe that Doran sent Oberyn to Braavos to sign a marriage pact between Arianne and Viserys.  Where we differ, I think is Doran demanded an additional payment for this very risky alliance for Dorne, and I think the payment was Viserys' true sister.  We know that Dorne also demanded that Viserys come up with his own army.  I think Dany was given to Viserys to dupe someone into giving him an army.

And something about this document seems to trigger something deep in Dany's subconscious:

Quote

“Dany unrolled the parchment and examined it again. Braavos. This was done in Braavos, while we were living in the house with the red door. Why did that make her feel so strange?”

 

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I don't think she is not legit, you do. You think she's a "rando" with an exceptional bloodline.

That's not my argument.  You indicated that if she wasn't a Targaryen princess, then she's some "rando".  My point, is that this is how the plotters might have thought of Dany, as some "rando" with the right look.  Which is why she becomes so expendable to them.

However, I'm not sure if the circumstances behind her bloodline were random or not.  

We're told that the Lyseni pillow houses "breed" girls to give them that Valyrian look.  So I suppose it's possible if Dany was born from the brothels (Houses with red doors btw, at least they look red when the red lamp over them is lit), then she could have been the product of intentional breeding to get a girl that looks Targaryen.  So presumably, you do this by getting Valyrian looking girls to bed Targaryen customers.  Aerys for instance, would often visit brothels.   Now in Westeros, the Valyrian look isn't very common as opposed to Lys, or Volantis.  But one of the places that would have Valaryian looking girls is Driftmark.  Which just so happens to be the last place that had female dragon riders.

So that's the argument that it's happenstance.  Dany was bred to look Targaryen, and in doing so, reunited bloodlines that had been separated from the Targaryen royal line for almost two hundred years.  

But it could also be possible that there is someone out there who is intentionally trying to rejoin Targaryen bloodlines through the brothels, perhaps specifically for the purpose of trying to bring dragons back.

If so, then I'd look for someone very learned, with a particular knowledge of dragons and Valyrian magic.  Someone who's not afraid of getting his hands dirty, and unlike Rhaegar, someone who has a lot of experience in whores and brothels.  Now, who could fit the bill ...

Quote

“He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors’ temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.

And it just so happens that Marwyn is on his way to try and find Dany, so that might open up the possibility of Dany learning her true origin.

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Viserys wanted an army to get his kingdom back and several years of trying to win support had failed. Again, it's more powerful if he sells his actual sister for this rather than someone Doran swapped in.

I'm not arguing that Viserys wouldn't have done it if it was his last possibility.  But I think he would be more conflicted if to do so he had to lose his last and only chance of a bride worthy of his bloodline.  But we don't see that do we?  We see someone very eager to sell Dany off, and someone extremely contemptuous of Dany.  He certainly doesn't treat her like she's the only person left worthy of him.  

Edited April 21, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[three-eyed monkey]

@Frey family reunion This debate is just going around in circles. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree that there is something going on with the lemon tree and the house with the red door and I'm open to it being in Tyrosh or Dorne, not Braavos. However, I disagree that it means Dany is someone else.

Quote

"Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are."

I can see how this can be taken to mean Dany must remember she is someone else. If that's how you want to interpret it, fine. I see it different.

Quote

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

The dragons know. Well, they can't know who she really is if she is someone else, given that they hadn't hatched when this proposed child swap happened. That's obviously not what is meant here. The dragons know who they are. They are dragons, wild beasts, apex predators, weapons of mass destruction. They know they are dragons, but does Daenerys?

Dany has now mounted Drogon and is in the process of waking the dragon because that's the only way she can win against the slavers massing against her. She is going to remember she is a dragon. That's the second plot-point, the second fire, when she burns the black-walled heart of Volantis. She will embrace that side of her nature and it will bring her victory, validating her decision and informing her character as to how she can win the Iron Throne. After that she begins her third act and heads for Westeros and the climax of the story as well as her third plot point and fire.

But she's not finished remembering yet, because there is another decision to be made when it comes to the climax of the story and the resolution of her arc. Something she told herself she must not forget, back in the first book.

Quote

She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget.

She is a link in a chain of kings and conquerors who rule through fire and blood. This is the chain she will break when she sacrifices herself to save the realm. This is the third and final turn in her arc, her third plot point and fire. Lightbringer is the third fire. And the sword that is tempered with her blood, the one the Others cannot stand against, is dragonsteel because it is tempered with the blood of the dragon.

So when Quaithe asks Dany does she know who she is, the answer at that stage is no. Not that she is actually someone else but that she doesn't know who she is, which is typical of a coming of age story. Dany is trying to figure out who she is. And this comes back to her inner conflict. She wants to be a good queen who does good things like free slaves and protect her people, but to be a queen and take the throne and hold power she needs to wake the dragon and do some bad things like fight rebellions or whatever, which ultimately bleed the realm. Does she belong to herself like most kings and dragons, - a dragon is not a slave - or does she belong to her people?

Quote

My people are bleeding. Dying. A queen belongs not to herself, but to the realm.

In the end Dany will decide that she is a queen that belongs not to herself but to the realm and she will demonstrate that by willingly sacrificing herself to save her people. And when she does that she will be remembered as a great queen not a mad queen, remembered forever with love, the thing she lit the third fire for, the thing she was always looking for.

Edit: But that's just my interpretation.

Edited April 21, 2023 by three-eyed monkey

[Mourning Star]

18 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Plot points are not repeated. Plot points are turning points in the story. Dany has three major plot-points, like most character arcs. Usually called first plot-point, mid-point, final plot-point. Dany's three are symbolized by her three fires.

That is a really weird definition of a plot point. 

A plot point is just something that impacts what happens next in a story.

18 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

First plot point is Drogo's pyre. This is the end of the first act of her story, where Dany's dragons hatch and she begins her journey as her own queen, even though she only has a small following.

Lot of plot points before that. For instance, when the shadows come to dance, and Dany is brought into the tent:

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."
No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

18 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Second plot point is upcoming at the end of her second act when she will wake the dragon and undo the bind she is in in Meereen by destroying the slavers with dragonfire. The black-walled heart of Volantis will be the second fire. This is where she will turn from queen to dragonqueen. This is foreshadowed by Drogon replacing the Harpy at the top of the Great Pyramid of Meereen. Dany, the dragon, will replace the slavers at the top of the food chain in Essos. This is where the Targaryen coin turns towards madness, but it hasn't landed yet.

This is an interesting prediction, not sure I see it happening like this, but it's interesting. Maybe worth it's own thread though as I'm not sure what it has to do with Lemongate.

18 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Third plot point will come near the end of her third act. Lightbringer will be the third fire she lights, when she sacrifices herself to save her realm, and this is where she turns from dragonqueen to true queen. This is the greatness side of the Targaryen coin and when it lands the world can breath again.

I don't see it happening like this, but it's not impossible. Again though, not sure what this has to do with Lemongate.

18 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Her story turns on her plot points.

Sure, just not only the arbitrary ones you decided/made up.

18 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That's the problem it seems.

Yes, discussing a book series works better when you are talking about the text as opposed to head cannon.

I'm all for interesting theories, but not sure where you are getting these ideas or what they have to do with the OP.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So when Quaithe asks Dany does she know who she is, the answer at that stage is no. Not that she is actually someone else but that she doesn't know who she is, which is typical of a coming of age story.

Quaithe the guidance counselor?  Perhaps, in a strange way. 

Quaithe couples her plea for Dany to remember who she is with reminding her of the House of the Undying.  So what is it that Quaithe wants her to remember from the House of the Undying?  (And for that matter how does Quaithe know about her visions at the House of the Undying?)

Before Dany goes to the House of the Undying she encounters Quaithe on the streets of Qarth, Quaithe asks her this question:

Quote

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist.  "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

After Dany's trip to the House of the Undying, Quaithe returns and she keeps telling Dany to remember the House of the Undying, remember her visions there.  When you read the chapter  set in the House of the Undying, they keep giving Dany various titles, but they always bring it back to this title:  Mother of Dragons.

That's what the dragons remembered even as they slumbered deep in their fossilized eggs.  Dany was the one that caused them to stir, and face the sun.  Dany was their Mother, their life giver.

Remember Bran's coma vision:

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Bran is charting Dany's path, from the Free Cities, to the Dothraki sea, to Vaes Dothrak, to the lands surrounding the Jade sea.  His gaze then brings him to Asshai, where dragons stirred.

Now Dany is looking to get armies, and ships and return to Westeros to take what she believes is her birthright.  Quaithe is trying to get Dany to turn instead, to Asshai, and remember who she truly is, the Mother of Dragons.

She wants Dany to go to Asshai to fulfill her destiny, to hatch, the dragon eggs in Asshai, the truth that is hoarded there.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[three-eyed monkey]

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

That is a really weird definition of a plot point. 

A plot point is just something that impacts what happens next in a story.

Well, you're using a rather broad definition, though it's not wrong.

I'm talking about something specific to story structure for three act stories, like Dany's. It starts with the Initiating Incident, which kicks off her journey, and continues through the First Plot-Point and Midpoint and then on to the Final Plot-Point, which is when the character resolves their inner-conflict or at least learns how to resolve it.

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Lot of plot points before that.

Yes, there's a whole chain of events, so if we're going to call each one a plot point then let's call what I'm talking about the three major plot-points.

In relation to the structure of Dany's story, we first get the initiating incident. This is her marriage to Drogo in exchange for an army to invade Westeros, that's what gets her journey underway. Then Viserys dies, this is usually called a pinch point but it's a minor version of the first major plot point, things change for Dany, the responsibility to win the throne becomes hers now, but she is still going in much the same direction with Drogo, just without Viserys.

The first plot point is where her journey changes direction. Drogo dies, his army abandons her, Dany doesn't know what to do, she walks into the fire and emerges with dragons, and so begins the next stage of her journey. For the first time she is in charge of herself, it's a step from pawn to novice player. It's an escalation of the change in the pinch point when Viserys died, as the responsibility is all hers now with Drogo gone.

I don't mean to ramble on but I just want to try an briefly explain what I'm talking about when I say the three fires mark her three major plot-points.

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Sure, just not only the arbitrary ones you decided/made up.

GRRM helped identify them by marking each with a fire. He also marked the journey to each plot point with a mount and a treason. For example, the first mount is Silver, who she rode to her marriage to Drogo. The first treason is Mirri, who killed Drogo and Rhaego. The first fire is Drogo's pyre.

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

This is an interesting prediction, not sure I see it happening like this, but it's interesting. Maybe worth it's own thread though as I'm not sure what it has to do with Lemongate.

It has to do with Lemongate theories that suggest that Dany is not a Targaryen. I think her arc works better if she is a Targaryen, because her being one is central to the whole arc.

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Yes, discussing a book series works better when you are talking about the text as opposed to head cannon.

What parts do you feel are not supported by text?

What we disagree about is not what's in the text but how we interpret it. You think "remember who you are" means she must be someone else, that's your head cannon. I disagree, I guess that's my head cannon. I do support my position with text, but when we are talking about well known things like Dany's three fires I guess I don't feel the need. But if you need me to support a point I'm making I will.

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm all for interesting theories, but not sure where you are getting these ideas or what they have to do with the OP.

I'm getting these ideas from reading the books. I love the story, naturally, but my main interest is in the craft of story-telling. How the story is structured, how the arcs work, how the themes are developed, how inner-conflicts are created, how character progression is written, all that sort of stuff. As we are analyzing a story, I feel that stuff is relevant.

58 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Quaithe the guidance counselor?  Perhaps, in a strange way. 

Certainly a mentor figure, but not Dany's main mentor.

58 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

After Dany's trip to the House of the Undying, Quaithe returns and she keeps telling Dany to remember the House of the Undying, remember her visions there. 

Yes, because the main elements of Dany's story are symbolized there so there are lots of clues to her destiny. Mother of Dragons, her son Rhaego burning cities, breaker of chains, child of three, bride of fire, Rhaegar and the Prince that was Promised, Jon, Stannis, Aegon, and other significant figures she will encounter. These are all pieces of the puzzle of her arc and need to be understood and put together, it's not just a case of picking the one that supports your theory.

58 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now Dany is looking to get armies, and ships and return to Westeros to take what she believes is her birthright.  Quaithe is trying to get Dany to turn instead, to Asshai, and remember who she truly is, the Mother of Dragons.

She wants Dany to go to Asshai to fulfill her destiny, to hatch, the dragon eggs in Asshai, the truth that is hoarded there.

Well, if that's the case GRRM has already confirmed that Quaithe has failed, yet curiously she's still around.

Edited April 21, 2023 by three-eyed monkey

[Mourning Star]

48 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Quaithe couples her plea for Dany to remember who she is with reminding her of the House of the Undying.  So what is it that Quaithe wants her to remember from the House of the Undying?

To be fair, Bran sees dragons stirring in Asshai by the Shadow, or maybe in the Shadow, which presumably is the Shadowlands, where the eggs Dany hatched are said to have come from.

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty."

The House of the Undying meanwhile shows Dany the House with the Red door not once, but twice, the first time with Ser Willem (not called Darry, nor does he call Dany by name). She sees a Stark King and a Targaryen King. She sees Rhaegar do his best Jedi, "there is another", impression. She sees the Stark colored horse she is naturally talented at riding dragging the only Usurper's knife. And of course Rhaegar speaking what is presumably Lyanna's name.

It's also worth noting  how Dany's Wake the Dragon dream also features the House with the Red Door, which she is running towards.

[Mourning Star]

45 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

For example, the first mount is Silver, who she rode to her marriage to Drogo. The first treason is Mirri, who killed Drogo and Rhaego. The first fire is Drogo's pyre.

This is interesting and I think worthy of a whole topic of it's own.

I'm still undecided on the meaning of all her trinities from the House of the Undying, although her Silver, I do think is very interesting.

It's a Stark colored horse.

She says riding it's the first time she felt like a princess, as opposed to what Viserys has been telling her.

All her life Viserys had told her she was a princess, but not until she rode her silver had Daenerys Targaryen ever felt like one.

And I would argue she is described like Lyanna and Brandon as being a natural rider, like a centaur.

The horse seemed to know her moods, as if they shared a single mind.

Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. 

(Lord Willam Dustin, not to be, or maybe to be, confused with Willem Darry)

In the house of the Undying, her silver is featured twice, once going to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars, and once pulling the wine merchant, who it turns out was the only Usurper's knife ever sent after her, embodying the lie that she was always told about her childhood, running from place to place away from the Usurper's knives.

As for the darkling stream (the first time, of four, the word darkling is used in the series, the second is in Jon's chapter and the third Theon/Reek's. The last being a proper noun, Darkling Daughter, in Tyrion's chapter), I might even suggest that this is a vailed reference to Shakespeare's King Lear:

For you know, nuncle,
The hedge-sparrow fed the cuckoo so long,
That it’s had it head bit off by it young.
So out went the candle and we were left darkling.

Are you our daughter?

King Lear Act 1 Scene 4

45 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

What parts do you feel are not supported by text?

The part about burning Volantis seems a stretch to me. Not impossible, I just don't see it coming from the text.

45 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, because the main elements of Dany's story are symbolized there so there are lots of clues to her destiny. Mother of Dragons, her son Rhaego burning cities, breaker of chains, child of three, bride of fire, Rhaegar and the Prince that was Promised, Jon, Stannis, Aegon, Quentyn, and other significant figures she will encounter. These are all pieces of the puzzle of her arc and need to be understood and put together, it's not just a case of picking the one that supports your theory.

It's clear we disagree, and that's not only ok, but healthy for a discussion. My apologies for any rudeness.

I can't help but see far more connections here between Dany and a false past, and between Dany the Starks than you seem to.

It's not just in one place, but these connections appear all over her chapters, especially early and anywhere she is getting visions like the House of the Undying and her Wake the Dragon dream.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, because the main elements of Dany's story are symbolized there so there are lots of clues to her destiny. Mother of Dragons, her son Rhaego burning cities, breaker of chains, child of three, bride of fire, Rhaegar and the Prince that was Promised, Jon, Stannis, Aegon, and other significant figures she will encounter. These are all pieces of the puzzle of her arc and need to be understood and put together, it's not just a case of picking the one that supports your theory.

Mother of Dragons is the title that they keep going back to.  It's the only one that constantly repeats, it's also the first title they use to refer to Dany.  So if Quaithe wants Dany to remember who she is by thinking back to the House of the Undying, the repeating motif is Mother of Dragons.  Go back and read the chapter.

It's also the question that Quaithe first asks Dany when she meets her in person, "Are you not the Mother of Dragons?"

And Quaithe confirms to Dany that she wants Dany to go to Asshai.

And this has nothing to do with my theory, this has to do with what Quaithe is trying to get Dany to remember and where she is trying to get Dany to go.  She's putting seeds of doubt into Dany about the people that are trying to lure her to Westeros, because that's not where Quaithe wants her to go.

She wants Dany to remember that her destiny is Mother of Dragons, and she wants Dany to go to Asshai, not Westeros.  (or at least not Westeros until she goes to Asshai).  And I think the takeaway is that she wants Dany to fulfill her destiny by not just waking three dragons, but many, many more.

23 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Well, if that's the case GRRM has already confirmed that Quaithe has failed, yet curiously she's still around.

Last we see Quaithe (or the last Dany has a vision of Quaithe) Dany is still in the Dothraki Sea.  So Quaithe had not failed yet.

[three-eyed monkey]

12 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

This is interesting and I think worthy of a whole topic of it's own.

I'm still undecided on the meaning of all her trinities from the House of the Undying, although her Silver, I do think is very interesting.

I'll start a new topic a bit later today and we can have that discussion there.

12 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It's clear we disagree, and that's not only ok, but healthy for a discussion.

We agree on this. It's all good. You always make a strong case and that's the way it should be.

12 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It's a Stark colored horse.

As I said earlier in the thread, if Dany is not the daughter of Rhaella, say GRRM came out and confirmed that, then I feel she would have to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Aerys' bastard with Ashara Dayne would be a dark horse, but I think that's more likely a dark star.

So I'm not dismissing your theory, it's interesting to me for sure. I've thought about it a lot over the years but I always struggled to connect the dots between Lyanna and the Tower of Joy and Viserys and Darry on Dragonstone. That's worthy of it's own thread too. I'd like to see the whole theory.

12 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I can't help but see far more connections here between Dany and a false past, and between Dany the Starks than you seem to.

There's clearly a strong symbolic connection between Jon and Dany, ice and fire, and they will be central to resolving the plot together. So that's my position at the moment, the connections are symbolic rather than one of siblings. But I never say never.

12 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The part about burning Volantis seems a stretch to me. Not impossible, I just don't see it coming from the text.

I'll address all that in the thread I post about the three fires and stuff.

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Mother of Dragons is the title that they keep going back to.  It's the only one that constantly repeats, it's also the first title they use to refer to Dany.  So if Quaithe wants Dany to remember who she is by thinking back to the House of the Undying, the repeating motif is Mother of Dragons.  Go back and read the chapter.

It's also the question that Quaithe first asks Dany when she meets her in person, "Are you not the Mother of Dragons?"

Of course, it's central to Dany's character. She is the Mother of Dragons, and that's something she needs to reflect on, (shout-out to Serwyn of the Mirrorshield again), when she comes to her final decision. I think that she is the Mother of Dragons shows that she is a Targaryen, not that it must mean she's not.

I know you say the Targaryens had lost their ability to hatch dragons, but no one else in Westeros ever had that ability. It makes sense to me that GRRM got rid of the dragons for a while so that the Targaryens could be overthrown by a Usurper, setting up Dany's story. The Starks seem to have lost the ability to skinchange too, if Ned's pov is anything to go by. But that ability is back with his children. Magic waned for a time it seems, but the trees have eyes again.

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Last we see Quaithe (or the last Dany has a vision of Quaithe) Dany is still in the Dothraki Sea.  So Quaithe had not failed yet.

If I recall correctly it was at the great pyramid of Meereen when one of her handmaids asked her who she was talking to or Quaithe said something about if you call your guards they will swear I'm not here. I will have to go back and read.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Of course, it's central to Dany's character. She is the Mother of Dragons, and that's something she needs to reflect on, (shout-out to Serwyn of the Mirrorshield again), when she comes to her final decision. I think that she is the Mother of Dragons shows that she is a Targaryen, not that it must mean she's not.

I know you say the Targaryens had lost their ability to hatch dragons, but no one else in Westeros ever had that ability. It makes sense to me that GRRM got rid of the dragons for a while so that the Targaryens could be overthrown by a Usurper, setting up Dany's story. The Starks seem to have lost the ability to skinchange too, if Ned's pov is anything to go by. But that ability is back with his children. Magic waned for a time it seems, but the trees have eyes again.

It's important to note, however that the only ones who had access to dragon eggs were Targaryens.  And they jealously guarded those eggs.  So "dragonseeds" were never in a position to have their own dragon eggs to hatch.

After the Dance, the Targaryens still were the only ones who had access to the dragon eggs, yet they stopped hatching under their watch.  And we know that this Targaryen line was from Viserys II who's dragon egg never hatched, despite his constant contact with it, and Larra Rogare, the daughter of a Lysenian banker, who to the best of my knowledge had no known.  So it's not terribly surprising that they were never able to bring them back.

As for the Starks, do we know if the Starks ever had a history of skinchanging befire we get  to Cat and Eddard's children?  If so, it hasn't been told yet.

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

If I recall correctly it was at the great pyramid of Meereen when one of her handmaids asked her who she was talking to or Quaithe said something about if you call your guards they will swear I'm not here. I will have to go back and read.

I meant Dany's second trip to the Dothraki sea.  Either way, whether it was in Mereen, or after Dany returns to the Dothraki sea, Dany hasn't made it to Westeros yet.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm assuming like you are, that Dany is going to Westeros.  I'm just stating what Quaithe has explicitly confirmed to Dany, that she wants her to go to Asshai, instead of Westeros, or at least before Westeros.  So I don't think Quaithe is just there to root Dany on to be the best Dany she can be.  I think Qauithe has her own agenda, just like pretty much everyone around Dany does.

And that really is irregardless of my theory about Dany's birth.  My best guess is that Quaithe could care less if Dany is a legitimate Targaryen or not.  Her interest in Dany is strictly due to the fact that Dany was able to hatch dragons, and specifically was able to hatch them from stone.  Because that is something that is truly unique, as far as I know.  Even when the Targaryens were in full dragon riding and hatching power, once the eggs fossilized I think that there was no expectation that they could ever hatch.

So with all the talk of dragons coming from Asshai, specifically the Shadow valley north of Asshai,  I think that the shadow binders of Asshai are in possession of a lot of fossilized dragon eggs, and they want them hatched.

[three-eyed monkey]

43 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm assuming like you are, that Dany is going to Westeros.  

Yes. I'm assuming that because I believe her goal is the Iron throne. Her staying in Essos would be anti-climatic in my opinion.

46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm just stating what Quaithe has explicitly confirmed to Dany, that she wants her to go to Asshai, instead of Westeros, or at least before Westeros

Are you referring to go east before west? Remind me.

47 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 So I don't think Quaithe is just there to root Dany on to be the best Dany she can be.  I think Qauithe has her own agenda, just like pretty much everyone around Dany does.

I agree Quaithe has a motive for what she is doing, that should stand for every character.

When I say a mentor character, I mean she is a character that has something to teach Dany. I don't think she's there to root Dany on to be the best she can be. I'd say more guide her to her destiny. I agree that Dany being the Mother of Dragons is central to her destiny, so it makes sense that is why Quaithe is interested in her.

The big question I have about Quaithe is why doesn't she just spit it out? What's with all the riddles? Dany even ponders the same thing. The obvious answer is for story reasons, GRRM doesn't want to reveal too much too soon and it gives the reader something to puzzle over. That's fine as an explanation, but I think there must be more to it. I feel Quaithe is trying to lead Dany, the Mother of Dragons, to reach a conclusion herself. That might explain her cryptic approach. It's a bit like a Zen Master, never revealing the truth to their student but leading the student to discover it for themselves.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My best guess is that Quaithe could care less if Dany is a legitimate Targaryen or not.  Her interest in Dany is strictly due to the fact that Dany was able to hatch dragons, and specifically was able to hatch them from stone.  Because that is something that is truly unique, as far as I know.  Even when the Targaryens were in full dragon riding and hatching power, once the eggs fossilized I think that there was no expectation that they could ever hatch.

I agree that Quaithe's interest is in Dany being the Mother of Dragons but that doesn't rule out her being Targaryen. If anything, I feel given the strong Targaryen/dragon link in the story, her being the Mother of Dragons fits with her being Targaryen.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So with all the talk of dragons coming from Asshai, specifically the Shadow valley north of Asshai,  I think that the shadow binders of Asshai are in possession of a lot of fossilized dragon eggs, and they want them hatched.

I agree that dragons do come from Asshai. Again, I feel this must be symbolic as we know we're not going to Asshai, other than more visions perhaps. Dragons are creatures from the Shadow. Shadows represent a projection of power in the books. Dragons breathe fire, yes, but it is a false light that will only lead the realm deeper into darkness. This is what Dany needs to understand before the end if she is to help bring the dawn, in my opinion.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Are you referring to go east before west? Remind me.

Quote

“The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are 
the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

         “She is, and no spawn of shadows may touch her.” Jhogo brushed Quaithe’s 
fingers away with the handle of his whip.
            The woman took a step backward. “You must leave this city soon, Daenerys 
Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all.”
            Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you 
have me go?” she asked.
            “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To 
go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the 
shadow.”
            Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for 
me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find 
in Qarth?”
            “Truth,” said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the 
crowd.”

And Quaithe isn't the first one that has tried to get Dany to go to Asshai.

That's where Jorah wanted Dany to go, along with her dragon eggs.

The other thing to keep in mind when dealing with Quaithe, while she doesn't mention the legend of Azor Ahai like Melisandre does, she is also a shadowbinder from Asshai and would have been influenced by the same writings from Asshai that Melisandre was.  So if Quaithe got wind of the fact that Dany brought her dragons forth from petrified eggs, she very well may be convinced that Dany is Azor Ahai come again.  If so, I think the shadowbinders may want to take advantage of this opportunity to increase their power by hatching their hoard of petrified eggs.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[three-eyed monkey]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

            Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you have me go?” she asked.
            “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”
            Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?”
              “Truth,” said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.”

Again, we have a different interpretation of this.

Dany asks where Quaithe would have her go. Quaithe did not say Asshai, she answered with a riddle. To go north she must journey south, etc. A set of directions that require her to go against her natural instincts, just as journeying south would be against the natural instincts of anyone who wanted to go north.

Quaithe also says that if Dany is to touch the light then she must pass beneath the shadow. Dany assumes she must be talking about Asshai, for obvious reasons, but I think Dany is jumping to the wrong conclusion.

To touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow. The light is the truth, which is what Quaithe wants Dany to find, something she will not find in Qarth. But to find the truth and understand it she must pass through the lie, so to speak. In terms of what I have been saying about Dany's arc, her plot points, and the turning Targaryen coin, Dany must wake the dragon and seize power before she can sacrifice that power to save the realm and become a true queen. Only then will she touch the light or the truth or the dawn.

This way Quaithe is connected to the main climax of the story rather than a plotline involving the shadow-binders of Asshai.

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The other thing to keep in mind when dealing with Quaithe, while she doesn't mention the legend of Azor Ahai like Melisandre does, she is also a shadowbinder from Asshai and would have been influenced by the same writings from Asshai that Melisandre was.

I agree she knows about Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer.

The difference between Quaithe and Mel, in my opinion, is that Quaithe understands the prophecy better than Mel does. Quaithe understands that the key point is that Nissa Nissa gave herself willingly. And because I'm saying Dany must be a dragon, then I feel the same thing must apply to Nissa Nissa. My guess is that she was a dragon too.

Another difference is their approach to Stannis and Dany. Mel told Stannis he is Azor Ahai and then placed a glamoured sword in his hand, and it's becoming a sort of self-fulling prophecy on Mel's behalf. Stannis wasn't exactly convinced either. On the other hand, Quaithe is trying to lead Dany to come to the truth herself and therefore be convinced of it.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Quaithe also says that if Dany is to touch the light then she must pass beneath the shadow. Dany assumes she must be talking about Asshai, for obvious reasons, but I think Dany is jumping to the wrong conclusion.

The problem with this is we know Dany didn't jump to the wrong conclusion.  Not only did she guess Asshai but she then asked Quaithe what Asshai gave her that Qarth didn't, and Quaithe answered the truth  So if she had guessed incorrectly,  Quaithe would have corrected her or simply said nothing.  Because in that case, Quaithe would not have wanted Dany to go to Asshai.   But instead Quaithe confirms Dany's guess with her answer.  You may not like it, and it may not line up where either of us think Dany is actually going, but to try and read that passage any other way isn't really an honest reading of the passage.

So the question is, if Dany goes to Westeros like we both agree.  And if the reader is never taken to Asshai, which is what I think GRRM said in an interview, then what is the importance of Quaithe trying to get Dany to go to Asshai?

I think the simple answer is that the threat of Dany going to Asshai to potentially wake thousands of dragons, may be the real reason, this is introduced

This is a story at least partly inspired by the Fire and Ice poem by Robert Frost.

Quote

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I’ve tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

So we know the apocalyptic scenario posed by Ice (or at least we think we do).  What could the apocalyptic scenario posed by fire be?  And could Dany be the danger posed by fire/desire?

It seems that Quaithe wants Dany to come to her own realization as to where her true destiny lies.

She confirms to Dany that Dany should go to Asshai to learn the truth, before she goes to Westeros.  When Dany is lingering in Qarth attempting to get the ships to take her to Westeros, the first question Quaithe asks Dany is "Are you not the Mother of Dragons?"  

I think this is what Quaithe ultimately wants Dany to remember, that out of all of her titles, her most important one is the Mother of Dragons, and it's in Asshai where she will learn her true destiny.

Quaithe then warns Dany not to trust the people that she will inevitably encounter on her way to Westeros, and reminds Dany of the House of the Undying.  I do wonder if Quaither here, is merely reminding Dany of the betrayal she encountered there.  That she will suffer the same in Westeros.  That people will invite her in, only to trya and steal what makes her special.

So (and I can guess you won't like this next part, which is fine, I dont' like it either), I sometimes hold my nose and look sideways at how the HBO AGOT series ended.  Allegedly, the writers roughly took George's outline for how his series was supposed to end.  Even George sort of confirms this, but indicates that it's changed up quite a bit because of the characters the show left out or killed off too early (or didn't resurrect).  

So in the show, Dany is killed by Jon because Jon realized she had become a tyrant like her father, Aerys Targaryen, and kills her in a rough parallel to Jaime killing Aerys Targaryen.

So I do wonder if Dany meets her fate in the books for a similar reason to why Aerys Targaryen met his.  When Dany realizes that her ultimate goal of the Iron Throne was falling apart, for whatever reason, she finally comes to the realization as to why Quaithe wanted her to go to Asshai.  To fulfill her destiny and to wake thousands and thousands of dragons, creating a parallel to Aerys' goal of destroying King's Landing by fire so he could be reborn as a dragon.  Only Dany's plan would be far worse, and could possibly succumb the entire world to fire.  And at some point, someone close to Dany at the time, realizes that she has to be stopped to avoid this possibility.

[the trees have eyes]

On 4/19/2023 at 5:15 PM, Frey family reunion said:

While I sort of see what you’re getting at, it kind of misses the point, at least for my version of the theory.  So there is probably only one Targaryen loyalist back when the switch would have been made, which is Willem Darry.  It’s unlikely that either Oberyn or the Sealord of Braavos are Targaryen loyalists. 

The Martells are out for revenge, who have to have little love lost for Aerys or perhaps even Rhaegar.  And who knows what Braavos’ ultimate goals were, but I don’t ever think it’s been argued that they were Targaryen loyalists.

Darry isn’t really in a posture to negotiate.  Other than having the two children, he has nothing.  So to build an alliance he has to make a payment.  My guess is the payment was Viserys’ true sister.  So she gets pledged either to Dorne, Braavos, or to some other co-conspirator that we don’t know about, perhaps one of the other free cities.  That’s where the true marriage alliance is.

Dany is the imposter, the changeling that Oberyn gives them to dupe someone into giving them an army.  I don’t think we’re talking about a long term alliance here.  I think they consider whoever they give Dany to as expendable, as cannon fodder.

Now is this a desperate gambit?  Yes, but presumably, Darry’s not in a prime place to negotiate.  Plus the benefit of this scenario is that he’d at least believe that the true Targaryen princess is kept safe as opposed to remaining with Viserys living out in the streets begging for aid.

I have to admit I'm having a hard time following what you are saying or what exactly your version of the theory is but my point is that fakes are anathema to the Feudal System as they subvert the basis on which it works.  No "Targ loyalists" would think on the death of baby Dany let's swap in a fake and pretend: this includes Darry, the one person who actually has custody of the child.  The Martells and Braavosi aren't "Targ loyalists", they are the duped allies if they don't know she is fake or the cynical opportunists if they do, either way they are not scions of the Targaryen family allegedly using cuckoos to try to prolong themselves.

If your version is they would simply use a second fake Dany for a marriage alliance while also using the real Dany for a marriage alliance then at some point it is going to become clear there are two Danys and no one will know which is real so both allies are aware they have been played and there is no way of regaining the trust of either.  There is also no way of winning new allies when your word is publicly revealed as worthless.  All you've done is question the legitimacy of any children the "real" Dany goes on to have, if the marriages are not repudiated before there are any.

The Feudal system is about the clear and obvious legitimacy of offspring to continue the family line.  The Queens of France even went through public births in the early modern period to ostentatiously display to the Court that this was their child.  Marriage alliances were a fundamental part of the system and you won't find any examples of regimes passing off imposters as their legitimate children.

On 4/20/2023 at 12:12 AM, Gilbert Green said:

I don't suppose there is any plan for any putative ally to find out the truth.

Right.  Like Cersei and Jaime never planned for Robert to find out the truth but the whole Realm did...

The point about the Feudal system is not to taint your own blood, which is exactly what allowing a fraud to wear your own colours and use your family name does.  And all you do is risk creating a rival claimant, something the feudal system was notoriously averse to doing.

On 4/20/2023 at 12:12 AM, Gilbert Green said:

It would be Illyrio's plan, as far as I know.  His, and that of Mad Viserys, who he no doubt talked into it.

If Dany died at birth on Dragonstone there is nothing Viserys, a child at the time, and Illyrio, across the Narrow Sea and completely unconnected to events, can do. 

You might think it's okay to assume a significant gap in the knowledge of Dany's whereabouts but Rhaella and Viserys were on Dragonstone and the Barratheon net was closing in on the last Targaryens.  To avoid it the survivors fled into exile and although the reader can't put a daily diary account on their location there is no reason to think Barratheon agents were not well aware of their location.  If they knew where Viserys was they would know whether his sister was with him or not.  Speculating that they lost track of here for years until she was somehow reunited with Viserys in Essos is not credible.

On 4/20/2023 at 12:12 AM, Gilbert Green said:

"The Prisoner of Zenda"?  And those were the good guys.

Oops.  Sorry.  That's not history.  That's just a colorful and imaginative work of fiction.  Well ... so is this.

So you can't.  Funny, that.