The Fate of Harren and House Hoare if Aegon’s Conquest didn’t happen?

[James Steller]

I feel like even though Harrenhal was finished, I don’t think that House Hoare’s position in the Riverlands was tenable. The Ironborn were stretched thin while trying to maintain their conquest, just as the stormlords had been. The key to their rise to power was the support of the riverlords, and they hated the Ironborn. Trying to go after a second kingdom would have been too much. If harren tried that, then I don’t doubt that he would have not only suffered from uprisings and rebellions, but also raids or full out invasions from his neighbours.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I think a semi successful slave rebellion would’ve ended their dynasty tbh. Like you said they were spread really thin. They also haven’t demonstrated capabilities of fighting a battle on land. Despite how fast their lighting raids can be, if rebellions pop up all over, they couldn’t possibly deal with all of them in time to stop one from getting traction.

 

If one lasted longer than anticipated then it’d drain their resources further and make them look weak to the rest of the Riverlands. 

[Northern Sword]

They were firmly entrenched in the RL. If there was no outside force that was contesting the area, they would have been secure. Especially considering the ease of movement up and down the Trident. On top of that they had Harrenhal to retreat into if needed. Even ruined, it is such a strategically located castle and still dominates the area in the present day. To me it looks like they had a firm grip and were not going anywhere, unless dislodged. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

13 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

They were firmly entrenched in the RL. If there was no outside force that was contesting the area, they would have been secure. Especially considering the ease of movement up and down the Trident. On top of that they had Harrenhal to retreat into if needed. Even ruined, it is such a strategically located castle and still dominates the area in the present day. To me it looks like they had a firm grip and were not going anywhere, unless dislodged. 

Harrenhal was and is too massive to maintain. Harren would’ve fallen to the same issues as those that came aftrt

[Floki of the Ironborn]

24 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

They were firmly entrenched in the RL. If there was no outside force that was contesting the area, they would have been secure. Especially considering the ease of movement up and down the Trident. On top of that they had Harrenhal to retreat into if needed. Even ruined, it is such a strategically located castle and still dominates the area in the present day. To me it looks like they had a firm grip and were not going anywhere, unless dislodged. 

The Riverlands had twice the fighting men that the Ironborn had, and it's not like the Ironborn could keep all their forces in the Riverlands anyway, else the Iron Islands would have been undefended. 

And sure, Harrenhal is the biggest castle in Westeros, but it's just that; a castle. If the Riverlands revolted, they might not be able to get at the Hoares in the castle, but the Hoares would be stuck in that castle. If the Starks could defeat the Boltons after two years of siege, I think the Riverlords could do the same if they were united, possibly aided by other armies. The Stormlands would have every reason to want to help the rivermen overthrow the Ironborn tyrants (rather ironic, really) as do the Reach and the Westerlands, given that they'd be next on House Hoare's conquest list.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

5 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The Riverlands had twice the fighting men that the Ironborn had, and it's not like the Ironborn could keep all their forces in the Riverlands anyway, else the Iron Islands would have been undefended. 

And sure, Harrenhal is the biggest castle in Westeros, but it's just that; a castle. If the Riverlands revolted, they might not be able to get at the Hoares in the castle, but the Hoares would be stuck in that castle. If the Starks could defeat the Boltons after two years of siege, I think the Riverlords could do the same if they were united, possibly aided by other armies. The Stormlands would have every reason to want to help the rivermen overthrow the Ironborn tyrants (rather ironic, really) as do the Reach and the Westerlands, given that they'd be next on House Hoare's conquest list.

I mean the Storm Kings sound better than the Ironborn. But that’s not a hard thing to imagine. Hoare’s Ironborn we’re almost as evil as Valyrians 

[Northern Sword]

20 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The Riverlands had twice the fighting men that the Ironborn had, and it's not like the Ironborn could keep all their forces in the Riverlands anyway, else the Iron Islands would have been undefended. 

And sure, Harrenhal is the biggest castle in Westeros, but it's just that; a castle. If the Riverlands revolted, they might not be able to get at the Hoares in the castle, but the Hoares would be stuck in that castle. If the Starks could defeat the Boltons after two years of siege, I think the Riverlords could do the same if they were united, possibly aided by other armies. The Stormlands would have every reason to want to help the rivermen overthrow the Ironborn tyrants (rather ironic, really) as do the Reach and the Westerlands, given that they'd be next on House Hoare's conquest list.

You gotta keep in mind that the RL were already beat into submission. The Hoares (lol) were brutal overlords that decimated any who opposed their rule. They were not stuck anywhere, they dominated the entire region. Any force can get pinned down, that is why the mobility offered by the Ironborn ships along the Trident allowed for immediate reinforcement anywhere within the region.

Also, you cant pin your hopes on a suddenly united RL Lords. They were never united, until a dragon (force multiplier) showed up and invalidated the strength of Harrenhal. 

And.. we are talking generations of rule over the Riverlands. So, whole generation were born , lived and died under this brutality. No way are they overcoming the Ironborn without outside help. The storm kings were spent already, the vale was isolated and protected, the north was to remote to care, Maybe the West under the Lannisters would intervene, but that would be unlikely in my mind. 

[Northern Sword]

41 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

Harrenhal was and is too massive to maintain. Harren would’ve fallen to the same issues as those that came aftrt

Harren was raping and pillaging the entire region, they were not short on any resource. The problem was Dragons.

[Alester Florent]

The Ironborn would probably have been able to hold the Riverlands for a couple of generations, maybe even a century or two, just as the Storm Kings did. Then someone else - a king of the Rock, Vale, North, another Storm King, whoever, would come along and the Riverlords would side with them to overthrow and eject the Ironborn.

[The Hoare]

Actually Harren the Black was widely loved in the Riverlands. The idea that he was a king that brutalised his own people is largely Tully-Targaryen propaganda.

[The hairy bear]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:31 AM, James Steller said:

The Ironborn were stretched thin while trying to maintain their conquest, just as the stormlords had been. The key to their rise to power was the support of the riverlords, and they hated the Ironborn. Trying to go after a second kingdom would have been too much. If harren tried that, then I don’t doubt that he would have not only suffered from uprisings and rebellions, but also raids or full out invasions from his neighbours.

But house Hoare had already successfully faced uprisings (House Bracken) and invasions from their neighbors (at least twice the stormlanders and once the westermen). We are also told that Halleck Hoare did attempt three times to invade the Vale. Even though he ultimately failed, that suggests that the Ironborn were not actually "stretched thin", and had been able to consolidate their power base in the Riverlands.

And while it's undeniable that the Ironborn were widely hated in the Riverlands, they also had some allies. The World Book suggests that houses Paege, Vypren, Goodbrook and Charlton could have been Hoare supporters. It's true that those are not very significant right now, but perhaps they were diminished precisely because they had supported the Ironborn.

All things considered, added to the fact that Harrenhal had just been completed (providing them with the mightiest fortress of the area and reducing the need to extract so many taxes), makes me thing that house Hoare wasn't necessarily doomed, and they may have continued ruling the Riverlands for many decades if it weren't for the coming of the dragons.

[James Steller]

10 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Actually Harren the Black was widely loved in the Riverlands. The idea that he was a king that brutalised his own people is largely Tully-Targaryen propaganda.

Ah, thank you for that unbiased clarification, Captain Objective.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

12 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Actually Harren the Black was widely loved in the Riverlands. The idea that he was a king that brutalised his own people is largely Tully-Targaryen propaganda.

Are the Stark Antis evolving into Hoare Apoligists?

[illrede]

On 4/26/2023 at 11:31 PM, James Steller said:

I feel like even though Harrenhal was finished, I don’t think that House Hoare’s position in the Riverlands was tenable. The Ironborn were stretched thin while trying to maintain their conquest, just as the stormlords had been. The key to their rise to power was the support of the riverlords, and they hated the Ironborn. Trying to go after a second kingdom would have been too much. If harren tried that, then I don’t doubt that he would have not only suffered from uprisings and rebellions, but also raids or full out invasions from his neighbours.

If they'd made a go of it, the Riverlands tail would have wagged the House Hoare dog, and they'd become a Riverlands house (and font of other successor houses that were also Riverlands houses). It'd be like if the Plantagenets had managed to get a lock on France.