Slaver's Bay Makes No Sense

[Craving Peaches]

I was reading about Ancient Greece the other day and the dynamic between the Spartans and the Helots. On the whole I think the people of Slaver's Bay treat their slaves just as badly, if not worse, than the Spartans. They seem to have a similar freeman:slave ratio (7 Helots to one Spartan in 479BC apparently, and the ratio only got more skewed). Unlike Sparta however, they are not constantly training to be warriors - looking at most of the Masters it's the opposite. Most of them lack a citizen's army. Instead, they rely on mercenaries or slave soldiers(!). There is no way this could ever work, but not only do we not hear of any successful slave revolts, but not even any attempted ones at all in hundreds of years. This makes no sense. The only state in Slaver's Bay which even seems to come remotely close to Sparta is New Ghis with its lockstep legions. The others have virtually no way to keep the slaves in check with such a high slave:free ratio like the Spartans did... and the Helots attempted and did revolt multiple times in Sparta. Also, Spartan Helot system meant they were constantly wary of Helots attempting to revolt which is one of the reasons they focused on their military so much to the detriment of any cultural achievements like Athens etc... 

All these states are dependant on their slaves to the extent that the Spartans were (or more) for all sorts of tasks, yet they have no similar system in place at all to keep them down (seems to be almost the opposite of the Spartan approach)...

Qarth is dependant on its slaves, yet has no system in place that we know of to keep them all in check, yet can still manage cultural achievements...

Now I can accept that it could have been different when the dragons were around. But there is no way post-dragons that system could ever work. It makes no sense. The only 'disadvantage' in terms of revolt the slaves have compared to the Helots is perhaps relative lack of unity (lots of Helots were from a previous state of Messenia that warred with Sparta before being enslaved continuously for generations) and the fact that the Helots could (sometimes) chose own family and reproduce, whereas Slaver's Bay is using imported slaves. But it still is ridiculous that we hear of not even one attempted slave revolt.

[astarkchoice]

Theres no slave uprisings that we know of.

Now we see in volantis theres  unhappy slaves just waiting for a chance and unlike any other time in planetos history they are largely  united by a common religion AND a seemingly magical anti slavery messiah for that religion kicking slaver ass!!! 

Now in volantis we see an actual caste system with tatoos and all, their tiger cloak slave troops are probably agressively proud of their position, just as throughout real history poor being turned on poor for the sake of the rich! They probably have better lives than 99% of slaves and indeed many free men slogging away at regualr jobs . We can assume the other cities slave soilders have something similar thus any slave uprising probably  has to face off with professionals or get them onside 1st.

Now the slaves we see are largely swept in from all over essos by dothraki and pirate slavers, processed in the 3 main slaver cities then forwarded on by boat to other cities worldwide .....so are from already disparate cultures and languages churned around vast distances thus making it hard for the slaves to find their feet and begin to bond together to form an uprising before most are moved on.

Now should an uprising get going we know the masters have  their slave soilders ,ex gladiators , unsullied , various assasin cults.and when pushed huge  sellsword companies,khalassars and new ghis legions to call on! So waging an uprising seems highly unlikely to suceed given the vast amount of tools  the masters have to disrupt it from sheer muscle of numbers  to pinpoint assasinations! 

Then theres geography , the whole region is pro slavery!  When slavery is normal for 1000s of miles around freedom becomes an alien idea anyway , Overtake a city somehow and the ones beside you will march on you ! outside theres the seas which  are infested with pro slavery millitary vessels,.pirates and merchant vessels, the dothraki sea with its highly mobile slavers  or worse in quarth or the demon road cities unforgiving territory/desserts outside for 100s of miles.

Despite all that though the easier way out seems.to be escape , bravos welcomes slaves so wed imagine most orgainsed slave movements are to escape to there 

The only other factors also makinf slave uprisings harder i can see would be for quarth theres various competing factions incouncil ruling thus theres no solid way to stela.control withiut bringing them all.down...plus  them haveing actual wizzards complicates matters.

Astopor: bulk of the slaves arriving will not survive the unsullied production process, any non unsullied slaves cannot compete vs the robot killing machines.at the masters.disposal.

Mereen: as dany saw theres many gladiator pits thus rich masters have ready muscle to put down uprisings.

Yunkai: told they largely focus on bedslaves so most  kept on will prob be women.

 

[csuszka1948]

I agree that the lack of rebellions in Slaver's Bay is baffling, although the Unsullied are apparently brainwashed into servitude and they could help maintain order in Astapor.

Quarth is more of an analogue to other Greek or Mediterrean city states and probably doesn't have such skewed slave: master ratio. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Now we see in volantis theres  unhappy slaves just waiting for a chance and unlike any other time in planetos history they are largely  united by a common religion AND a seemingly magical anti slavery messiah for that religion kicking slaver ass!!! 

So why have they not revolted before?

12 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Now should an uprising get going we know the masters have  their slave soilders ,ex gladiators , unsullied , various assasin cults.and when pushed huge  sellsword companies,khalassars and new ghis legions to call on! So waging an uprising seems highly unlikely to suceed given the vast amount of tools  the masters have to disrupt it from sheer muscle of numbers  to pinpoint assasinations! 

Then theres geography , the whole region is pro slavery!  When slavery is normal for 1000s of miles around freedom becomes an alien idea anyway , Overtake a city somehow and the ones beside you will march on you ! outside theres the seas which  are infested with pro slavery millitary vessels,.pirates and merchant vessels, the dothraki sea with its highly mobile slavers  or worse in quarth or the demon road cities unforgiving territory/desserts outside for 100s of miles.

Similar situations did not stop real world slave uprisings like the Servile Wars in Rome.

13 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

..plus  them haveing actual wizzards complicates matters.

After death of Dragons the Warlocks powers were stunted so they wouldn't have been much of an issue. They are also not well respected in Qarth generally.

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Mereen: as dany saw theres many gladiator pits thus rich masters have ready muscle to put down uprisings.

Using Gladiators to put down slave uprisings wouldn't work due to the scale of the free:slave ratio, also Spartacus...

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I agree about Slaver's Bay, although the Unsullied are apparently brainwashed into servitude and they could help maintain order in Astapor.

Maybe... but that wouldn't explain Meereen. Also at the end of the day the Unsullied are a product to be sold, the Masters don't seem that concerned with using them for the city's defence given they sell them all to Daenerys.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

Using Gladiators to put down slave uprisings wouldn't work due to the scale of the free:slave ratio, also Spartacus...

 

Spartacus was an exception, not a rule. No slave revolt ever reached the scale that Spartacus' revolt managed to do, or else why should he be special if there'd been dozens of others like him? 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Floki of the Ironborn

[SeanF]

iMHO, the slave soldiers ought to have revolted by now.  Even if they don't want to overthrow the system, it would be logical that they would wish to rule the roost.

That aside, the Masters rely upon the relentless application of terror to keep the slaves in line.  And, they can call upon sellswords and the Dothraki.

[astarkchoice]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

-So why have they not revolted before?

Similar situations did not stop real world slave uprisings like the Servile Wars in Rome.

-After death of Dragons the Warlocks powers were stunted so they wouldn't have been much of an issue. They are also not well respected in Qarth generally.

-Using Gladiators to put down slave uprisings wouldn't work due to the scale of the free:slave ratio, also Spartacus...

-Maybe... but that wouldn't explain Meereen. Also at the end of the day the Unsullied are a product to be sold, the Masters don't seem that concerned with using them for the city's defence given they sell them all to Daenerys.

-the various factors working agaisnt it and the right circumstsnces not comming together...bear in mind for the vast vast period of romes history  it had.only had 3 short servile wars.....3! 

-they are feared and have some power (esp the undying seeing future) between the fear they generate and some actual power of foresight etc theyd prob be another factor preventinf sucessful slave orgainsation

-slave uprisings snowball so yeah at a small enough level a few gangs of  trained killers could snuff one out easily! 

-mereen has gladiator muscle, asaasins, sellswords, new ghis across the water,khalassars, can buy unsullied  and seem to have the only masters who a small % still slap on armour an get on horseback to practice lance and sword..they are the least likely to have slave uprisings.

The asotpor guys sold their whole stock as dany had something worth their whole stock and seemingly would need the whole.stock (and much more,  repeat buissness perhaps)  for her stated goal of the iron throne.

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Spartacus was an exception, not a rule. No slave revolt ever reached the scale that Spartacus' revolt managed to do, or else why should he be special if there'd been dozens of others like him? 

Yes, but there were multiple slave revolts, but we hear of not a single one in Essos...

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-the various factors working agaisnt it and the right circumstsnces not comming together...bear in mind for the vast vast period of romes history  it had.only had 3 short servile wars.....3! 

Three full on wars, Essos has not a single attempted minor revolt.

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but there were multiple slave revolts, but we hear of not a single one in Essos...

Three full on wars, Essos has not a single attempted minor revolt.

The Braavosi ancestors revolted, and there was resistance in Valyria.  The fact that peoples like the Rhoynar could flee West also acted as a safety valve.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The Braavosi ancestors revolted

Revolted as in fled. And this makes it even more silly that people were fleeing/revolting slavery when the slavers had actual dragons but for some reason not a peep after they all die.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but there were multiple slave revolts, but we hear of not a single one in Essos..

Three full on wars, Essos has not a single attempted minor revolt.

That we know of ...also rome.dont have assasin cults or a safe state for slaves to go

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

safe state for slaves to go

Slaves could still run away actually. Yes it would be dangerous but it was technically possible to go to territories not claimed by the Romans.

[astarkchoice]

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Slaves could still run away actually. Yes it would be dangerous but it was technically possible to go to territories not claimed by the Romans.

Yep but not such insanely lomg distances to.freedom...unless.from the free cities.

[Hugorfonics]

How many times did the Helots revolt? Like 3-4 times? Over 500 years? 

Im sure it's more, (although, what constitutes as a revolt?) But basically, 

20 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

That we know of ...

This.

Noblemen write history, noblemen talk to Dany. They don't wanna talk about the unruly.

We know there are unruly, one slave in particular is marked with the ink of a troublemaker, they call him Jorah. 

Also kinda like Sparta, but not at all like Rome, these slaves live in the field under the shadow of their great city. Now of course the City of Rome had mad slaves and I'm sure many revolted (again, what's a revolt? 100 men? 1000? ), But it's harder to get shit done under the eyes of the police. But in the sticks? It's a bit easier to go ape. However the free cities (and SB and Qarth) are cites and not boondocks.

Regarding the military matter, some are comical as shit like the chained dudes that Tyrion and Jorah make fun of, but slave armies aren't the work of fiction. The biggest ones are the mamalukes and janissaries (who arent the best example of slaves that don't rebel but that comes like 500 years later) who are definitely slaves but also kinda, respect that role. It's a different concept then like the plantation slave tho, or whatever bullshit Xaro probably made up on the spot. So like, aside from the unsullied who won't ever rebel, the watered down version may think there's honor in slavery. Like Tyrion and the Favorites, who ate well and slept at their obese masters feet, but still showed respect to the slave soldiers.

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes it would be dangerous but it was technically possible to go to territories not claimed by the Romans.

Like Canada?

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like Canada?

Depends on what time period but usually anything beyond the Rhine, e.g. (most of) Germany, Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, Scotland, Ireland, etc., you could also go to Rome's rival Parthia, Of course that has its own set of issues, but...

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Depends on what time period but usually anything beyond the Rhine, e.g. (most of) Germany, Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, Scotland, Ireland, etc., you could also go to Rome's rival Parthia, Of course that has its own set of issues, but...

Germany is just a forest filled with wolves and warring tribes. Kinda like Tyrion and Bronn taking the Highroad (is the highroad a joke on the play on the idiom of the same name?), The chances of you getting eaten or enslaved again is higher then anything else.

I don't see how they can get to Scandinavia, which is like the age of heroes for Vikings so probably not safe either, unless your good at fighting Giants or tricking Dwarves 

Ireland and Scotland I think also would be dangerous, and also only accessible really to the Britannians anyway. Maybe some on the coast of France but probably not. Might as well sail to Canada.

Iran I would think is the worst place for a Roman to go. Unless youve got like political secrets or something you won't be treated nicely. Almost definitely reenslavment or death awaits 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Germany is just a forest filled with wolves and warring tribes. Kinda like Tyrion and Bronn taking the Highroad (is the highroad a joke on the play on the idiom of the same name?), The chances of you getting eaten or enslaved again is higher then anything else.

I don't see how they can get to Scandinavia, which is like the age of heroes for Vikings so probably not safe either, unless your good at fighting Giants or tricking Dwarves 

Ireland and Scotland I think also would be dangerous, and also only accessible really to the Britannians anyway. Maybe some on the coast of France but probably not. Might as well sail to Canada.

Iran I would think is the worst place for a Roman to go. Unless youve got like political secrets or something you won't be treated nicely. Almost definitely reenslavment or death awaits 

Point is you can still go somewhere, so existence of Braavos doesn't explain why there are no slave revolts in Essos, especially post-dragons.

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Point is you can still go somewhere, so existence of Braavos doesn't explain why there are no slave revolts in Essos, especially post-dragons.

Theres none reported no but that could be false/updated

Besides i think its veen covered.now to desth the various reasons itd be very hard for one to get off the ground

[CassDarry]

I always just presumed that they happened but the masters wouldn't want outside of the bay know and/or they always win to write the history...maybe to dissuade future generations of slaves to revolt? 

If I was a slave I'd run towards the Pass to the lamb men...they'd take me in?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Besides i think its veen covered.now to desth the various reasons itd be very hard for one to get off the ground

The issue is people IRL faced similar difficulties and it still happened. To be clear I am talking about after the dragons died. I have not seen a convincing explanation for why there is not even a single mention of an attempted slave revolt in the whole of Essos. I think it is a wordlbuilding error.