Etymology and language tidbits

[Sandy Clegg]

My usual haunt for wordplay-related things is @Seams Puns & Wordplay thread, but I want to open up a space for more general etymology-related information in ASOAIF.

I was doing a Wikipedia  search today on krakens and thought this might be of interest to the board:

Etymology: KRAKEN

The English word "kraken" (in the sense of sea monster) derives from Norwegian kraken or krakjen, which are the definite forms of krake.

According to a Norwegian dictionary, krake, in the sense of "malformed or crooked tree" originates from Old Norse kraki, meaning "pole, stake". And krake in the sense of "sea monster" or "octopus" may share the same etymology. Swedish krake for "sea monster" is also traced to krake meaning "pole".

However Finnur Jónsson remarked that the krake also signified a grapnel (dregg) or anchor, which readily conjured up the image of a cephalopod. He also explained the synonym of krake, namely horv, was an alternative form of harv 'harrow' and conjectured that this name was suggested by the inkfish's action of seeming to plow the sea.

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

According to a Norwegian dictionary, krake, in the sense of "malformed or crooked tree" originates from Old Norse kraki, meaning "pole, stake". And krake in the sense of "sea monster" or "octopus" may share the same etymology. Swedish krake for "sea monster" is also traced to krake meaning "pole".

GRRM provides an illustration of these concepts here;

A Storm of Swords - Arya IX

For a moment she did not understand what was happening. Then she saw it: an uprooted tree, huge and dark, coming straight at them. A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. The oarsmen were backing water frantically, trying to avoid a collision that could capsize them or stove their hull in. The old man had wrenched the rudder about, and the horse at the prow was swinging downstream, but too slowly. Glistening brown and black, the tree rushed toward them like a battering ram.

It could not have been more than ten feet from their prow when two of the boatmen somehow caught it with their long poles. One snapped, and the long splintering craaaack made it sound as if the ferry were breaking up beneath them. But the second man managed to give the trunk a hard shove, just enough to deflect it away from them. The tree swept past the ferry with inches to spare, its branches scrabbling like claws against the horsehead. Only just when it seemed as if they were clear, one of the monster's upper limbs dealt them a glancing thump. The ferry seemed to shudder, and Arya slipped, landing painfully on one knee. The man with the broken pole was not so lucky. She heard him shout as he stumbled over the side. 

 

 

 

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Etymology: KRAKEN

I wonder whether we should be looking to this etymology for clues about House Crakehall? The boar symbolism in the books is so rich that it never occurred to me to associate the house with another set of symbols, but House Crakehall briefly ruled the Iron Islands; that might be a signal that a kraken connection is part of their story. Maybe boars and Krakens are like a manticore or griffin or chimera, and GRRM is telling us to look for mythical beasts he has constructed out of seemingly unrelated House sigils or other appearances by animals in the books. 

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

... the horse at the prow was swinging downstream, but too slowly. Glistening brown and black, the tree rushed toward them ...

This is such a nice passage to re-read. I had not noticed before how strongly this echoes the details of a jousting match.

The two-headed horse also makes me think of Jaime, setting off to the Riverlands with his horses Honor and Glory.

I wonder whether we are supposed to imagine Jaime jousting with a kraken?

I just looked at the context in the lead-up to the river crossing - it is rich and important. Arya and the BwB listen to the Ghost of High Heart. Arya finds out about Wylla and Ashara and Allyria Dayne and their relationships to Jon Snow and Ned Stark and Ser Beric, as well as Edric. Thoros has a vision in the fire at the ruined stable and (oddly) Arya is soon able to escape the BwB, after failing earlier attempts. Did they want to her go, after what Thoros saw in the fire?

The Hound grabs Arya as soon as she attempts her escape, however, riding away with her in the endless rain storm until they reach this ferry known as Old King Andahar's two-headed water horse. 

A lot of the imagery and detail matches up with Tyrion's interval on the Shy Maid or does it? Some of the details might be opposites. If we draw on details from the previous Arya POV, the GoHH is referred to as a "dwarf woman," perhaps creating a parallel to Penny, who will meet up with Tyrion on his next boat. Yandry and Ysilla, on Tyrion's boat, are Rhoynar but connected to Dorne through the Greenblood. Arya has just come away from an introduction to the Dornish Lord of Starfall and some Dayne family history. The Hound presents to the ferry man a paper promising ten thousand gold dragons; Tyrion will soon write notes promising thousands of coins to the men of the Second Sons. 

I wonder whether Arya and Tyrion are on reverse versions of the same journey? Arya leaves the GoHH and Thoros and then experiences a boating mishap with a fallen tree;  Tyrion experiences a boating mishap with the stone men and will soon meet Ser Jorah as well as the Widow of the Waterfront and Penny. An oarsman falls off of the ferry Arya is riding; a stone man falls onto Tyrion's boat.

The Thoros and Ser Jorah parallel bring us back to the kraken. I think of Thoros and Ser Jorah as sharing a link because the two of them were the first over the wall at Pyke when King Robert put down the Greyjoy Rebellion. Thoros and Ser Jorah may have special powers to cross borders or they may just have a special power absorbed from their entry into Pyke. Kraken power?

 

[LongRider]

While reading the passage of the uprooted tree and its roots "A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. " I kept seeing Beric sitting in the tangle of weirwood roots under the Hollow Hill and of course Bloodraven grown into his own weirwood roots throne(?) in the cave of the CotF.  Arya's kraken is tree ripped out to its roots, while Beric and BR repose in their krakens (a kraken embrace perhaps) underground, in liminal spaces. Arya escapes the river kraken, Beric escapes his kraken through his death in a trial by battle and BR is still underground trapped.  Hmmm, will the WW kraken trap Bran as well? 

 

[sweetsunray]

Great topic! I will read the kraken more closely over the weekend.

Of interest, and adding my 2 cents. I'm writing an essay on certain name groups and using etymology.

• Group 1: Brandons with Brynden as a variation of Brandon. We all know of course that Bran means crow or raven, but Brandon also means a beacon hill and flaming sword. HmmmmGeorge is playing with us when he claims Brandon the Builder helped build the Hightower, you know with its green fire beacon in times of war. Wordplay: Brand-On.
• Group  2: The Ricks (Beric, Edric Dayne, Edric Storm, Eldric Shadowchaser, Erichs Durrandon (3) and ironborn Erichs (also 3), Edric Snowbeard ... there are 3 Edric Starks. And of course there is Rickard and Rickon). -ric or -rich or -ryck means king. So Beric is Be-King. Say Eldric out loud, and you get Elder Rick. And of course Rickon is Rick-On. Alaric means king of all.
• Group 3: The Wards - Eddard, Rickard, ... Eddard is George's fantasy version of Edward. Ward-names appear in the Stark lineage only after Aegon conquered Westeros. The Ricks became Wards.
• Group 4: The Daring Ones - Durrans, Dareons, (Don)Darrion, .... Durran means "daring".

The Brandons and Bryndens are actual greenseers or gatekeepers (Brynden Tully), and often have dragonsteel (Dark Sister) or Dawn symbolism as attributes in their surrounding, . Meanwhile Ricks are featured as "brandishing" flaming swords or are attached to Lightbringer associated swords: Beric, Edric Dayne, Edric Storm in Stannis' monologue about being Azor Ahai and his pretty glimmering fake Lightbringer, Eldric Shadowchaser, and Edric Snowbeard "raised" the walls of Winterfell (higher). Rickon has wildfire eyes, "brandishes" a crypt sword, and when Shaggydog attacks Luwin in the crypts, the "torch" caromes the cheek of Brandon Stark's statue (kissed by fire) and lands at its feet, basically smoking up the legs of the statue.

It's like the Brandons and the Ricks are two sides of the same hystorical coin. I can make a strong case for Brandon the Builder having been born to a Dayne mother, bastardborn. Then the clues lead to Brandon having been fostered in the Stormlands, and the site of Storm's End in particular. Storm's End has fostered bastards of noblemen thrice: Edric Storm, Ser Lucamore "the Lusty" Strong's children by his third wife (including a baby), and the secret babe born to Coryanne Wylde of Rain House (Rainwood, which used to be domain of the cotf), aka a "wild" child "of the forest". In the case of Edric Storm, note how there's a whole plot point about Stannis not using his name, and referring to him constantly as "the boy", while legend claims Brandon the Builder aided Durran Godsgrief with Storm's End when he was still a boy and not yet known as Brandon the Builder.

Interestingly enough Davos as a name pops up several times: as a historical Sword of the Morning for House Dayne who was consort to Nymeria, Davos was made Lord of Rainwood by Stannis, Davos helps Edric Storm escape, and next he is "reborn" in the Wolf's Den to seek for Rick-on.

Anyway, that makes the three Erich Durrandons and the Ironborn Erichs quite significant as appearing names: it links the Durrandons to the Ironborn. And well there is a legend that the Grey King of the Ironborn taunted the Storm God in setting a tree on fire with his thunderbolt (tree kissed by fire), and the Storm God is the enemy of the Drowned God. Durran Godsgrief, founder of House Durrandon (basically meaning son of Durran), also had the stormgods as enemies, and though the sigil is a deer, Robert wields a hammer (like Thor), Durran means "the daring", and the vassal house Dondarrion has a lightning bolt for a sigil (a purple one with stars). We sort of have some indications where the Daynes and Hightowers comes from (Dawn Empire). And we are told how many houses claim ancestry to Garth Greenhand. But nothing like that for House Durrandon. Durran Godsgrief appears without a mention of ancestry. What are the chances that he may have ended up shipwrecked and washed ashore like our favourite dark fool at Shipbreaker's Bay? I think Durran was an Ironborn who decided to settle there. That explains why Durran Godsgrief decided to conquer Rainwood and take it from the cotf, well after the Pact between FM and Cotf. The Ironborn weren't FM and were never part of the Pact. And of course the Ironborn worked iron. Meanwhile a bastard son of King Robert of Storm's End is an apprentice smith, forging a sword. One of the towers at Storm's End is called the Sea Dragon tower, and Storm's End is situated on Durran's "point" (What is Durran's "point"? A pointy end?), while in the North you have a warg king with greenseers at Sea Dragon Point.

The three Ironborn Erichs are Erich Hoare, also called Erich the Eagle. Then there's Erich I Greyiron, and Erich V Harlaw (ancestor of Rodrik... hey a Rick ... Harlaw, aka "the reader").

So basically all this comes together, again and again: greenseeing, kissed by fire, tree, flaming sword, sea dragon or kraken.

Edited May 25 by sweetsunray

[Seams]

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So basically all this comes together, again and again: greenseeing, kissed by fire, tree, flaming sword, sea dragon or kraken.

I am such a fan of your brilliant mind.

[Sandy Clegg]

As we're on krakens, I'm going to also place this here.

Some of you may know of my interest in feet being systematically used by GRRM as metaphorical minds / heads in ASOIAF (as in a skin changer slipping into someone's mind like "a foot going into a boot").

So this Wikipedia entry on cephalopods - boy, did it intrigue me. (Cephalopods are essentially the scientific term for the animal group that includes octopus, squid, etc.)

A cephalopod is any member of the molluscan class Cephalopoda ...

 ... (Greek plural κεφαλόποδες, kephalópodes; "head-feet")  ...

 ...such as a squid, octopus, cuttlefish, or nautilus. These exclusively marine animals are characterized by bilateral body symmetry, a prominent head, and a set of arms or tentacles (muscular hydrostats) modified from the primitive molluscan foot. Fishers sometimes call cephalopods "inkfish", referring to their common ability to squirt ink. The study of cephalopods is a branch of malacology known as teuthology.

 

Cephalopod = HEAD-FOOT in Greek. 

So, in the image of squids and krakens, George manages to encapsulate one of his central conceits, that of the 'foot-as-head' -  or 'foot-as-mind' more accurately perhaps.

Remember Dunk's words in The Hedge Knight .. "How can my foot be worth a prince's life?"

Well, it may be that it not his literal foot that George wants us to pay attention to there. Rather, he is nudging the reader ever closer to the head-foot concept that is, in my opinion, one of the keys to understanding the imagery in ASOIAF.

[Evolett]

On 5/24/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

However Finnur Jónsson remarked that the krake also signified a grapnel (dregg) or anchor, which readily conjured up the image of a cephalopod.

Trust you to come up with this

This immediately had me thinking of Podrick Payne, known to most as Pod. I've always thought of Pod in terms of a seed pod, especially because of the parallels between Brienne / Pod and Dunk and Egg. The two protegees are like seeds, nurtured and guided by their respective mentors.

But this opens a new and further possibility - the pod as in a foot. Dunk chewed on the question of as to why his foot was worth a Prince's life -  (Prince Baelor who fought on Dunk's side so that Dunk would have a chance at  saving his hand and foot and ending up dead). 

Quote

How could my foot be worth a prince’s life? 

We don't know for sure if Dunk's question was ever answered but my guess is he saved Rhaella and baby Rhaegar from a fiery death during the tragedy at Summerhall. To accomplish that, he would have needed his feet. Rhaegar of course is key to the story.

Pod saved Tyrion from a premature departure from this life and possibly Brienne too, by assisting her at the Whispers. 

In fact, coupled with @sweetsunray's analysis above, Podrick becomes "King of Feet"
 

On 5/26/2023 at 12:55 AM, sweetsunray said:

Group  2: The Ricks (Beric, Edric Dayne, Edric Storm, Eldric Shadowchaser, Erichs Durrandon (3) and ironborn Erichs (also 3), Edric Snowbeard ... there are 3 Edric Starks. And of course there is Rickard and Rickon). -ric or -rich or -ryck means king.

Now, I have not had time to return to the text for mentions of feet in connection with Pod but what I do remember is he is so shy that he talks to peoples toes or boots, rather than look them in the face. He also brings Tyrion a walking stick (a stable foot) and supports him initially during Tyrion's recuperation after  the Battle of the Blackwater. 

There may not be anything in this but I find it intriguing to consider Pod in terms of feet as well as seeds. A thought: with skinchanging related to feet, could Pod be able to communicate with the suppressed personality of someone who has been skinchanged by another (talking to boots)?

[Sandy Clegg]

19 minutes ago, Evolett said:

There may not be anything in this but I find it intriguing to consider Pod in terms of feet as well as seeds. A thought: with skinchanging related to feet, could Pod be able to communicate with the suppressed personality of someone who has been skinchanged by another (talking to boots)?

Pod as 'foot' was something I intended to explore a bit more, yeah. You got in there before me as usual!  

And if you want to use the -rick suffix as a way of parsing Pod's name, then 'king' might be one way to go .... but I think we have to also consider the meaning of 'rick' as a twist/strain (from 'wrick'). That gives us Pod (foot) rick (strain) Payne (pain) ... a pain in the foot, so to speak.

Odd that we have another character at the Wall whose name, Dolorous Edd, can essentially be read as a pain in the head.

Painful heads, painful feet. 

[Evolett]

58 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

.... but I think we have to also consider the meaning of 'rick' as a twist/strain (from 'wrick'). That gives us Pod (foot) rick (strain) Payne (pain) ... a pain in the foot, so to speak.

Possibly.. I just came across this, coming from Brienne about Pod:

Quote

“Hyle. What did he do to you, ser? I mean, my lady.” The boy may be a stumbletongue, but he’s not stupid. 

We stumble with our feet ... and here we have a head-foot connection, whatever it's worth
That's the only instance of "stumbletongue" in all five books. 

[Sandy Clegg]

45 minutes ago, Evolett said:

We stumble with our feet ... and here we have a head-foot connection, whatever it's worth

Indeed! 

I actually went and dug up the image that first cemented the foot/head symbolism in my mind, from AGOT. And of course it was in one of those 'Theon smiling' moments which I'm convinced are one way George flags up significant clues.

Quote

The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoy's feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away.

- AGOT, Bran I

... and of course the first Cephalopod (Kraken) we meet is Theon.

Edited May 30 by Sandy Clegg

[Seams]

19 hours ago, Evolett said:

A thought: with skinchanging related to feet, could Pod be able to communicate with the suppressed personality of someone who has been skinchanged by another (talking to boots)?

I think this (and the whole Pod/foot) thing may be a huge breakthrough! Nice work.

On that new Harrenhal thread, I just pulled up Melisandre's quote about glamors, which is a variation of the theme of skinchanging:

Quote

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

ADwD, Melisandre I

My point in that thread was about people becoming the "Hand of the King" by taking possession of a king's finger bones. But the same sentence tells us that old boots are a way to assume someone's identity. And we know that Robert's heirs were not really his heirs because of their hair. So this is all coming together very nicely. 

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

“Hyle. What did he do to you, ser? I mean, my lady.” The boy may be a stumbletongue, but he’s not stupid. 

Very nice. This word is unique to Pod then, but doesn't it sound a bit like Tumble Stone? We know that the three branches of the Trident are important, but the Tumblestone River is part of the fork on which Riverrun is built. When Catelyn sends Brienne and Jaime to King's Landing in the hope of trading for her daughters, Brienne drives off the pursuers sent from Riverrun by  throwing big rocks down on their boat. I have been assuming that Brienne represents the blue fork of the Trident because of all of her blue associations, but maybe Pod represents the Tumblestone and he is a necessary part of defending the quest to return Arya and Sansa. 

Lovely stuff.