Would Wyman Want to Marry a Granddaughter to Jon?

[Corvo the Crow]

Is it possible that we see Jon marrying a granddaughter of Wyman Manderly, or at least Manderly bringing this forward? People have been suggesting for a long time that Manderly marrying Rickon to one of his granddaughters with Wylla being the main candidate, however there's a considerable age gap between her and Rickon, while Jon, the only Stark male around is of a closer age. Jon's bastardy and being a sworn brother of the Watch are no problem thanks to Robb so would he attempt this? Since Alys has married Sigorn, there aren't any Northern ladies of highbirth close in age to Jon, at least that we know of, so they are the only candidates available to placate the vassals with a marriage.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Rickon is far more likely to be Wyman's target for marrying one of his granddaughters since he's the trueborn son of Ned Stark, and the legitimate lord or heir of the North in Bran's absence. Even legitimised bastards are below trueborn by the laws of succession. 

Age is hardly an issue for him and other lords, young girls or boys marrying people older or younger than them is frequent in Westeros, with far larger age gaps than ten years.

Wyman would most likely try to marry one of his granddaughters to Jon if it isn't possible to do it with Bran and Rickon.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Darth Sidious]

21 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Rickon is far more likely to be Wyman's target for marrying one of his granddaughters since he's the trueborn son of Ned Stark, and the legitimate lord or heir of the North in Bran's absence. Even legitimised bastards are below trueborn by the laws of succession. 

Age is hardly an issue for him and other lords, young girls or boys marrying people older or younger than them is frequent in Westeros, with far larger age gaps than ten years.

Wyman would most likely try to marry one of his granddaughters to Jon if it isn't possible to do it with Bran and Rickon.

Partly right. I don’t agree with the idea of Wayman marrying one of his girls to Jon. Rickon for sure. Even a crippled Bran is a good match. Jon is a different beast because Ramsay exposed Jon. It is now known that Jon refused to punish Mance Rayder, he sent the Wildlings to infiltrate the Bolton household, and it will also come out that Jon set up the Karstark girl to marry a Wildling. Wayman is a very dirty player and a cannibal but even he would not make Jon part of the family. 

[astarkchoice]

47 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Rickon is far more likely to be Wyman's target for marrying one of his granddaughters since he's the trueborn son of Ned Stark, and the legitimate lord or heir of the North in Bran's absence. 

Age is hardly an issue for him and other lords, young girls or boys marrying people older or younger than them is frequent in Westeros, with far larger age gaps than ten years.

This

Without rickon he cannot rally the northern lords. 

As far as wyman is concerned  roose has already one of the strongest houses (bolton+ dreadfort) who has already clashed with the manderlys over the hornwood lands. Lady dustin + her house is in his corner with her fathers major house too.  The ironborn have taken a toll on house glover and talbert still theirs (but some of their men are with roose). The boltons have a portion of frey stremgth with them  and will soon secure winterfell and all its lands,incomes, men and landed knights and even its minor sworn houses with a pretend heir marriage. To add to it all a lot of the former pro stark manpower was massacred  or scattered by ramsays betrayal outside winterfell and we see hes won a major victory for the north over the ironborn with moat catlin.

To.fight that off manderly as we see has mustered a lot of strength secretly and has already moved against the freys but its far far  from enough to win vs the bolton alliance even before talking about their  tyrell/lannister allys on the crown! Wyman has 3 major factors in his favour to  realisticly rebel and take the north for himself.

1) he has played the coward role well and gotten his heir back, he knows how to operate in secret so when he strikes he can do so at his choosing. He already had rid most of his court of freys and knows whos left  there to deal with!

2)stannis victories mount and now at a critical time roose focusing on him gives wyman his chance, stannis can be his ally and if sucessfull officaly grant him warden of the north title(as neds.choice even stannis declaring it before taking the throne adds to his rep) stannis chances as we know are good and with the backing of the iron bank hes back into the mix as an actual serious contender for king again. Stannis will need an ally to hold the north during this..somone at white harbour when all the iron banks hired muscle is landing! All things its clearly gonna be wyman should the he beat roose

3)he knows of a  real stark heir  with a stronger claim than the one roose is using to rally the rest of the northern lords around. Marry to one of his own and house stark of winterfell will be his  future ally plus theres a small  chance if davos negotiates with the skagosoi  he can add the strength of the various houses there to his cause!

Add in he has an eye witness to house boltons ambush outside winterfell to help add to the bitterness of the red wedding.

Manderly knows if this battle vs stannis goes well he could secure winterfell  with his heir to neds  , maybe hornwood (no heir and possibly  no boltons post battle   left nearby so never a better time for a shameless landgrab with a male heir to create a 2nd house manderly) and still has a few left to marry off and secure the north for stark/manderlys for good.

Edited June 19, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Curled Finger]

Wyman Manderly is cunning.  He would do whatever would be advantageous to both his house and House Stark.  I do believe that he and his are fiercely loyal to the Starks.  His secretive actions with the Umbers, Glover and the Freys are proof enough.  His main objective (imho) seemed to be getting his son back which may have or be occurring.  The problem is last time we saw Wyman, he was bleeding from a cut to his neck.  While this may be no more than a flesh wound, it may be fatal.  We know that the Manderlys at home are fully indoctrinated, but what of Wylis who has been held captive for more than a year following the Red Wedding?  What mental shape is he in?  

If there were absolutely no other living legitimate Starks Wyman would consider Jon for marriage.  He may not be as keen on NW vows as other Northern lords perhaps holding rule of the North in higher esteem.  If Robb's will were to come to light then that would certainly boost Jon's er acceptability to any Stark supporter.  

Overall, if the Starks weren't key to the successful rule of the North I think old Wyman Manderly would have sought out a marriage alliance with another house rather than send Stannis' man to Skaggos or take special pies to Ramsay's wedding.  He's obviously made connections in Stark absence against Bolton rule.  He's already in with the Umbers and Glovers.  The Glovers are in with the Mormonts and Reeds.  One assumes some of the mountain clans are mixed up in here somewhere.  Manderly knows about Jon if nothing else.  Given Jon's quick rise to power in the NW I see no reason Manderly wouldn't have him under consideration as an alternative or back up should the Rickon plan go awry.  

[Corvo the Crow]

Rickon is a mere babe in a society where having as many children as you can iş important and child mortality would be very high. Since women have a considerably narrower period in which they can accomplish this task, women marrying men 10 years younger than them is much more rarer than men doing it and for many of these women this would most likely be a second marriage

So the question is simple: Would Manderly, or anyone for that matter, prefer Jon who is Rickon’s heir, has already survived his childhood years and is ready to immediately start working on producing some heirs -which is btw also something that may take many years of attempt- or Rickon a child who has 10 years ahead of him,  to be able to even start trying? 10 years during which he may die 10 years during which Wylla may make several children if lucky.

[astarkchoice]

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Rickon is a mere babe in a society where having as many children as you can iş important and child mortality would be very high. Since women have a considerably narrower period in which they can accomplish this task, women marrying men 10 years younger than them is much more rarer than men doing it and for many of these women this would most likely be a second marriage

So the question is simple: Would Manderly, or anyone for that matter, prefer Jon who is Rickon’s heir, has already survived his childhood years and is ready to immediately start working on producing some heirs -which is btw also something that may take many years of attempt- or Rickon a child who has 10 years ahead of him,  to be able to even start trying? 10 years during which he may die 10 years during which Wylla may make several children if lucky.

Dunno jon is a bastard and sworn to the night watch so hes doubly out of the picture for contention for winterfell.

Note wymen wasnts rickon AND his direwolf if possible because roose already has a passible  ' heir ' in his sons upcomming marriage to 'arya' (not really  her as we know but  she has the age and knowledge to pull off being  a very believeable arya to even lords who've been to winterfell repeatedly) thus to counter that he needs a heir whos both got a better claim(male heir) and will have something to make him  seem unmistakably a stark (direwolf)....otherwise he could just be some baby manderly found!

Add in wex can  give a testimony that will be backed up by  the winteffell ambush survivors , red wedding survivors will be creeping north and of course rooses big PR push to help undo some of the image damage from  the red wedding has been his big victory over the ironborn  for the north....wex can reveal he only won this by keeping the much hated  theon greyjoy alive.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Dunno jon is a bastard and sworn to the night watch so hes doubly out of the picture for contention for winterfell.

Note wymen wasnts rickon AND his direwolf if possible because roose already has a passible  ' heir ' in his sons upcomming marriage to 'arya' (not really  her as we know but  she has the age and knowledge to pull off being  a very believeable arya to even lords who've been to winterfell repeatedly) thus to counter that he needs a heir whos both got a better claim(male heir) and will have something to make him  seem unmistakably a stark (direwolf)....otherwise he could just be some baby manderly found!

Add in wex can  give a testimony that will be backed up by  the winteffell ambush survivors , red wedding survivors will be creeping north and of course rooses big PR push to help undo some of the image damage from  the red wedding has been his big victory over the ironborn  for the north....wex can reveal he only won this by keeping the much hated  theon greyjoy alive.

Yes but Wyman doesn’t know about Robb’s will yet, he needs Rickon and proof of Rickon being Rickon because he doesn’t have and can’t have Jon, Robb’s declared heir who was released from his vows. Once he learns this Jon is much better. He’s around the same age with Wyanfryd and Wylla, young but old enough to have children, a tested battle commander, a true leader of men chosen to command by both his predecessor and his fellow Watchmen, a shrewd diplomat and cunning negotiator able to struck deals with kings, even a stubborn one like Stannis, wildlings and even the Iron Bank. He is the man you want leading you through the darkest of times, not a child lord. Rickon’s only superior quality to Jon, in the eyes of a vassal that is, is he is so young that he could be manipulated and that his regent would be running the show for years to come. Both of these are things Manderly can’t take advantage of. He brought no young hostages with him and his knights he brought with him are old men. He doesn’t expect to survive, he “went hunting” like a true Northman.

[Evolett]

Hmm, would anyone want to marry their daughter to Jon, knowing he is undead? I suppose some fathers or daughters may be ambitious enough.

[Admirable Privy]

Maybe, but would Jon accept?  I think Jon is serious about ending the thousands of years of war between the Northmen on this and that side of the Wall, and if Alys and Sigorn's marriage is any judge, I think he would prefer to pair up as many "feudal-ish" wildling chiefs like Redbeard, Tormund, etc with nobility south of the Wall as he can, including taking one to wife himself (assuming the NW oath is thrown out).  He doesn't need to marry a Manderly to gain his troops, since they're both on Team Rickon at the end of the day.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So the question is simple: Would Manderly, or anyone for that matter, prefer Jon who is Rickon’s heir, has already survived his childhood years and is ready to immediately start working on producing some heirs -

Why wouldn't Rickon tell everyone Bran is alive?  

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes but Wyman doesn’t know about Robb’s will yet, he needs Rickon and proof of Rickon being Rickon because he doesn’t have and can’t have Jon, Robb’s declared heir who was released from his vows. Once he learns this Jon is much better. He’s around the same age with Wyanfryd and Wylla, young but old enough to have children, a tested battle commander, a true leader of men chosen to command by both his predecessor and his fellow Watchmen, a shrewd diplomat and cunning negotiator able to struck deals with kings, even a stubborn one like Stannis, wildlings and even the Iron Bank. He is the man you want leading you through the darkest of times, not a child lord. Rickon’s only superior quality to Jon, in the eyes of a vassal that is, is he is so young that he could be manipulated and that his regent would be running the show for years to come. Both of these are things Manderly can’t take advantage of. He brought no young hostages with him and his knights he brought with him are old men. He doesn’t expect to survive, he “went hunting” like a true Northman.

 

could bw

I dont think he will find out though in time. Hes put enough wheels in motion to hopefully secure his heirs freedom from the boltons...if davos cant find rickon and he never hears of the will hes still done enough to secure his legacy and revenge.

The bare minimum=  frey influence in his court has  largely all been deliciously taken care of and now he and his older guys will betray roose and ramsay for stannis. He has one male heir and 2 girls to marry off...the hornwood lands next door are up for grabs and so  might be the dreadfort too!! (if he plays his cards right and kills both boltons).

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Why wouldn't Rickon tell everyone Bran is alive?  

Rickon  was what, 3 when they split? I don’t know about you but my earliest memories that I am certain and can put it an order are from when I was 4, sure there are a few things that could be from 3  but I’m not sure. Even if he does would you take a 5 y.o. word for a thing that happened when he was 3, especially considering all he went through? 

Also he’s a crippled child who went beyond the wall so there’s also that.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Admirable Privy said:

Maybe, but would Jon accept? 

Val and Sansa are sure bets the rest deponda on the answer how many wives will he take. Aegon the impotent had 2, Maegor  more and with Ygon(reminds Aegon) Oldfather, we see even more, 18 wives. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Bran was what, 3 when they split? I don’t know about you but my earliest memories that I am certain and can put it an order are from when I was 4, sure there are a few things that could be from 3  but I’m not sure. Even if he does would you take a 5 y.o. word for a thing that happened when he was 3, especially considering all he went through? 

Also he’s a crippled child who went beyond the wall so there’s also that.

Bran was 7 or 8 so Rickon was 4 or 5 I think.  But Rickon's memory is not the only thing at play here, there is Osha, who may be 100% Team Rickon.  For all we know Rickon is betrothed to the Magnar's daughter and has a nice future ahead of him on Skagos.   And Theon should be out in the open with his truth, too.  I think there is a chance that Manderly's grand design will go fubar when all these survivors tell their tales.  I'm not certain that Rickon and Osha actually know where Bran & Co actually went or that it matters.  The Liddle has a good idea.  The point that Bran was alive may be enough wrench to throw into Manderly's grand design for marriage and political advantage.   

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Bran was 7 or 8 so Rickon was 4 or 5 I think.  But Rickon's memory is not the only thing at play here, there is Osha, who may be 100% Team Rickon.  For all we know Rickon is betrothed to the Magnar's daughter and has a nice future ahead of him on Skagos.   And Theon should be out in the open with his truth, too.  I think there is a chance that Manderly's grand design will go fubar when all these survivors tell their tales.  I'm not certain that Rickon and Osha actually know where Bran & Co actually went or that it matters.  The Liddle has a good idea.  The point that Bran was alive may be enough wrench to throw into Manderly's grand design for marriage and political advantage.   

I meant Rickon and Rickon is 5 right now, not sure of his age during split. Osha I omitted because you didn’t ask and nobody knows her. She could be someone who found her on the road and adopted him for all they know. They need Wex to confirm and yes, at most she  knows Bran went north.

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I meant Rickon and Rickon is 5 right now, not sure of his age during split. Osha I omitted because you didn’t ask and nobody knows her. She could be someone who found her on the road and adopted him for all they know. They need Wex to confirm and yes, at most she  knows Bran went north.

OK, but there is still Theon.  Theon can vouch for Osha.  My only point is that if Bran is suspected to be living that sort of puts Rickon and Jon both on hold, even if Robb left a will and it becomes known.  

I put it together you meant Rickon, and that makes sense.  I think that's why Martin put multiple adults in to back it all up or dredge it all up.  I can't help but recall the shaggydog story.  Rickon is a Stark and important for that if nothing else.  I am not sold that he will necessarily do what anyone wants him to do.  

Could be Manderly takes one look at this kid and moans "Oh Hell no, not my girl" soon as he sees Rickon.   Lots of possibilities.  I didn't mean to derail you.  

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

OK, but there is still Theon.  Theon can vouch for Osha.  My only point is that if Bran is suspected to be living that sort of puts Rickon and Jon both on hold, even if Robb left a will and it becomes known.  

I put it together you meant Rickon, and that makes sense.  I think that's why Martin put multiple adults in to back it all up or dredge it all up.  I can't help but recall the shaggydog story.  Rickon is a Stark and important for that if nothing else.  I am not sold that he will necessarily do what anyone wants him to do.  

Could be Manderly takes one look at this kid and moans "Oh Hell no, not my girl" soon as he sees Rickon.   Lots of possibilities.  I didn't mean to derail you.  

For all we know he could take a page or two from his cousin, Sweet Robyn... and then fold those pages into paper planes and let the bad men fly. 

 

[Nevets]

If Jon is available for marriage, that would mean he is no longer bound by Nights Watch vows.  Probably because he is King in the North, King on the Iron Throne, or something like that.  Or the Nights Watch has been disbanded because the Others are no longer a threat.  Which Jon would have a big role in.  

Essentially, if Jon's available for marriage, he's probably one of the best catches around.  So absolutely Lord Manderly would suggest Wylla as a marriage partner.

As has been pointed out above, Rickon is a poor choice now.  He's far too young.  If Wylla is going to have children, she needs to start in the next 4-5 years, which won't be possible with Rickon.

[Corvo the Crow]

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

If Jon is available for marriage, that would mean he is no longer bound by Nights Watch vows.  Probably because he is King in the North, King on the Iron Throne, or something like that.  Or the Nights Watch has been disbanded because the Others are no longer a threat.  Which Jon would have a big role in.  

Essentially, if Jon's available for marriage, he's probably one of the best catches around.  So absolutely Lord Manderly would suggest Wylla as a marriage partner.

As has been pointed out above, Rickon is a poor choice now.  He's far too young.  If Wylla is going to have children, she needs to start in the next 4-5 years, which won't be possible with Rickon.

He could also revert to the original vows of I am this and I am that by removing I won’t do this and that parts.