What is compelling about having Daenerys be someone other than the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella?

[Mourning Star]

7 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

It doesn't fit with Ned's timeline. Lyanna only had one child. Unless she had twins, but that would be extremely gimmicky IMO.

The Tourney of Harrenhall was in 281, the events at the Tower of Joy were in 283, there was time for two pregnancies.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

Edric Dayne is younger than Jon.

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It could be an entirely different Ned and did I say Jon is our Jon or Edric Dayne is Edric Dayne we know of and not from a hundred years ago?

 

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

I mean you sound dumb sure, but you must have thought there was a reason to ask dumb questions.

 

Not as much as you bringing such an explanation I'm afraid.

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It could be an entirely different Ned and did I say Jon is our Jon or Edric Dayne is Edric Dayne we know of and not from a hundred years ago?

So you're suggesting the author is making a statement about an unmentioned character with the same name as a character in the book? Really?

Hahaha

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not as much as you bringing such an explanation I'm afraid.

Ok, have a good one

[Hippocras]

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The Tourney of Harrenhall was in 281, the events at the Tower of Joy were in 283, there was time for two pregnancies.

Those are not the only events in Ned's timeline. He was also present just after the sack of King's Landing in 283. Following those events he went to lift the siege at Storm's End, then raced to find Lyanna. She did not have a toddler when he found her, she had a newborn, who was born the same year as Rob.

Dany was born in 284, after Lyanna died.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[Corvo the Crow]

10 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So you're suggesting the author is making a statement about an unmentioned character with the same name as a character in the book? Really?

 

Oh yeah sure, why not, let's do that as well since we are already going full retard claiming "oh but it says Dany, not Daenerys"

Would you also like to suggest that there also exists a John Arryn besides Jon Arryn who also fostered a Baratheon by the name of Robert since literally in the next question someone mentions a JoHn Arryn and GRRM does nothing to correct that?

Edited July 10, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Mourning Star]

4 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

She did not have a toddler when he found her, she had a newborn, who was born the same year as Rob.

How do you know this?

 After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

I think the issue is that people put to much stock in Cat's view of Jon when it comes to his age, which was biased at best, and in my opinion likely more akin to willful ignorance.

The story about Ned and Ashara, that Cat seemingly believed, as told to Arya, was a conception at Harrenhall.

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

While I don't believe that Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents, I think his being conceived at Harrenhall makes a lot of sense.

[Mourning Star]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Would you also like to suggest that there also exists a John Arryn besides Jon Arryn who also fostered a Baratheon by the name of Robert since literally in the next question someone mentions a JoHn Arryn and GRRM does nothing to correct that?

Are you highlighting the point that a name can be spelled multiple ways and pronounced the same?

Or just quoting a transcript as if it were the text?

Well, not even quoting, referencing.

If you want to clean up the attitude and ask honest questions I'm game, otherwise be well.

[Hippocras]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

How do you know this?

 After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

I think the issue is that people put to much stock in Cat's view of Jon when it comes to his age, which was biased at best, and in my opinion likely more akin to willful ignorance.

The story about Ned and Ashara, that Cat seemingly believed, as told to Arya, was a conception at Harrenhall.

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

While I don't believe that Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents, I think his being conceived at Harrenhall makes a lot of sense.

Because Catelyn said he brought a baby home, and because of the many references to Rob and Jon being virtually the same age.

Also, Catelyn's bitterness was based in the assumption Ned fathered Jon AFTER they were married. A bastard fathered before, when she was betrothed to his brother not him, would not have been such a source of dishonour for her. So clearly Jon was not obviously older than Rob.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[Corvo the Crow]

12 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

If you want to clean up the attitude and ask honest questions I'm game, otherwise be well.

Sorry but you are definitely not the person to talk about attitudes.

[Mourning Star]

18 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Because Catelyn said he brought a baby home, and because of the many references to Rob and Jon being virtually the same age.

I see them as described as "of an age", but that's hardly specific.

Because this:

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Doesn't call Jon a newborn baby.

And of course there is this great interaction in Jon's fist chapter:

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."
"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.
 

Repeated again in his 6th chapter:

He'd heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.

Like I get it, it's hard to believe Cat could mistake the age of such a young child, but honestly it's hard to believe Cat really gave the whole thing much honest thought if she thought Ashara was the mother and the story about her and Ned was from Harrenhall, let alone that Ned would have cheated on her after they were married, or when he'd have found time.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sorry but you are definitely not the person to talk about attitudes.

As long as you are sorry

[Hippocras]

Just now, Mourning Star said:

Doesn't call Jon a baby.

Kind of does. Only babies have wetnurses. Yes, I know, Sweet Robin was still being breastfed, and King Aenys lingered on the boob longer than is typical. Nevertheless, Jon was not them. He was not still breastfeeding at almost 3 years old.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

As long as you are sorry

Sorry that I've spent time answering you knowing full well what kind of person you are. Will be ignoring so I won't make that mistake again.

[Craving Peaches]

I have to say I'm not really seeing 'Dany' as anything other than Daenerys' nickname for herself. I think if we were supposed to think it was alluding to another name, it would be spelt e.g. Danny like Danny Flint. No one else is nicknamed 'Dany' in the way Ned is short for Eddard as there aren't any other people currently alive called Daenerys.

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

Kind of does. Only babies have wetnurses. Yes, I know, Sweet Robin was still being breastfed, and King Aenys lingered on the boob longer than is typical. Nevertheless, Jon was not them. He was not still breastfeeding at almost 3 years old.

Honestly, I think we have to give old George a little leeway when it comes to babies, not sure he ever had one.

But for another example, there is Ermesande Hayford.

Who is a baby with a wetnurse during the Tourney for Joff's Nameday in Clash of Kings, and still is when Jaime see's her at Hayford in Feast for Crows.

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Honestly, I think we have to give old George a little leeway when it comes to babies, not sure he ever had one.

But for another example, there is Ermesande Hayford.

Who is a baby with a wetnurse during the Tourney for Joff's Nameday in Clash of Kings, and still is when Jaime see's her at Hayford in Feast for Crows.

Why? I basically consider it pointless to assume Lyanna had more than 1 child. That would be just as gimmicky as twins. It is simply an elaborate effort to make the story fit some pet notions, but which is not actually supported by anything. Being unnable to emphatically disprove is not the same thing as an idea actually having anything to back it up. This does not.

 

A typical baby stops breastfeeding somewhere between 1 and 2 years. Sometimes they stop even earlier than that because of teeth. They start biting too much and so Mum/wetnurse decides enough is enough. Sometimes they go on past 2 years if it is going well, however their food needs are entirely covered by other sources by then, so the breastfeeding beyond 2 years is simply about bonding and comfort - factors which make much less sense when a wetnurse is involved.

Baby Lady Hayford is an orphan. For her, the wetnurse is not just a source of milk as she has no parents left.

[Nevets]

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Honestly, I think we have to give old George a little leeway when it comes to babies, not sure he ever had one.

But for another example, there is Ermesande Hayford.

Who is a baby with a wetnurse during the Tourney for Joff's Nameday in Clash of Kings, and still is when Jaime see's her at Hayford in Feast for Crows.

He may be a bit sketchy on babies but I think even he wouldn't think you can pass off a 15-month old as a 3-month old, which is roughly what is being suggested here.  It's ridiculous.

[Mourning Star]

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

Why? I basically consider it pointless to assume Lyanna had more than 1 child. That would be just as gimmicky as twins. It is simply an elaborate effort to make the story fit some pet notions, but which is not actually supported by anything. Being unnable to emphatically disprove is not the same thing as an idea actually having anything to back it up. This does not.

Nobody is asking you to disprove anything.

I think the text asks us to question Dany's past, and I think this is the best explanation for the information we have, that's all.

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

A typical baby stops breastfeeding somewhere between 1 and 2 years. Sometimes they stop even earlier than that because of teeth. They start biting too much and so Mum/wetnurse decides enough is enough. Sometimes they go on past 2 years if it is going well, however their food needs are entirely covered by other sources by then, so the breastfeeding beyond 2 years is simply about bonding and comfort - factors which make much less sense when a wetnurse is involved.

And you can grow lemons inside with heat lamps, but we are dealing with a story and should probably put down the rulers and stop watches when discussing it.

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

Baby Lady Hayford is an orphan. For her, the wetnurse is not just a source of milk as she has no parents left.

Great point, Jon was also an orphan if he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna too. Unclear how long Wylla stayed in Winterfell and what role she played, maybe she was just caring for the boy and not breastfeeding any longer at that point.

[Hippocras]

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Great point, Jon was also an orphan if he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna too. Unclear how long Wylla stayed in Winterfell and what role she played, maybe she was just caring for the boy and not breastfeeding any longer at that point.

Jon had an adopted father who had an entire staff. He did not need a wetnurse of his own beyond the breastfeeding phase. Are we done? This is not a promising path to pursue. I hope you are ready to let it rest. 

 

I don't mind questioning Dany's past, but other paths of inquiry are far more plausible.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[Mourning Star]

23 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Jon had an adopted father who had an entire staff. He did not need a wetnurse of his own beyond the breastfeeding phase. Are we done? This is not a promising path to pursue. I hope you are ready to let it rest. 

This is literally a haterade thread with people asking questions then acting put upon when they are answered.

I'm telling you where I think the story is going, no skin off my back if you don't believe it.

But let it rest? No, these discussions have only served to convince me there's something to this. Obviously, one has to speculate about details since we don't have the end of the story, but people who pretend lemongate doesn't exist won't change the text in front of me.

35 minutes ago, Nevets said:

He may be a bit sketchy on babies but I think even he wouldn't think you can pass off a 15-month old as a 3-month old, which is roughly what is being suggested here.  It's ridiculous.

I don't think there is a reasonable way to reconstruct Cat's beliefs about Jon that makes sense. I think she has shown herself to be unreliable when it comes to him.

Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?
They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

The only theory she has heard of for who Jon's mother would be was Ashara Dayne, and we are told that story in Arya's chapter, it's about the Tourney of Harrenhall.

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

Cat does not dismiss this story because of Jon's perceived age, so I have to conclude that, in the story, this is not an issue.

54 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I have to say I'm not really seeing 'Dany' as anything other than Daenerys' nickname for herself. I think if we were supposed to think it was alluding to another name, it would be spelt e.g. Danny like Danny Flint. No one else is nicknamed 'Dany' in the way Ned is short for Eddard as there aren't any other people currently alive called Daenerys.

If only we had a Dunk and Egg story from their time in Dorne!

Edited July 10, 2023 by Mourning Star