What is compelling about having Daenerys be someone other than the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella?

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I just don't think GRRM was hinting at that when he said "That would be telling".  Because that does not look like a spoilerish secret to me.

So she is Lyanna’s daughter that she gave birth from the grave?

Daenerys is a wight confirmed.

 

[Gilbert Green]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The biggest thing which rules out Dorne for me (aside from lemons being found elsewhere) is that if it was in Dorne, why on earth would Oberyn be travelling to Braavos to sign the pact? Why not just do it in Dorne since everyone involved is there already? Did he just really, really want the Sealord as a witness?

I know you're addressing someone else's version of the theory, but here's my answer.

Everyone isn't there.

The marriage pact makes no mention of Dany.  And that makes Dany feel strange.

The text does not mention the date of the pact.  But Dany, who examines the document, concludes it was signed when she was at the house with the red door. 

Ser Willem Darry cannot be at two places at once.  If the house with the red door was not in Braavos, then the implication is that the Willem she remembers is somebody other than Darry.

The reason Oberyn does not travel to the mountains of Dorne to find the other Willam who is caring for a little girl in a big stone house in a hidden valley is because he does not know about him. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Gilbert Green said:

But Dany, who examines the document, concludes it was signed when she was at the house with the red door. 

Do we have a date? Because then we would know how old Daenerys was when she was at the House.

[Gilbert Green]

10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So she is Lyanna’s daughter that she gave birth from the grave?

Lyanna does not die giving birth to Jon, in my hypothesis.  She dies 10 months later, giving birth to the girl we know as Dany.

I'm not sure you're willing to engage with my hypothesis.  You seem to want to mock it for contradicting standard R+L=J theories.  I can't stop you, I guess.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do we have a date? Because then we would know how old Daenerys was when she was at the House.

One of the wikis quoted/cited GRRM in saying that she was five years old when she left Braavos

Edited July 10, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Gilbert Green]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do we have a date? Because then we would know how old Daenerys was when she was at the House.

No, we don't have a date.

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's a bit anticlimatic.  I think it's much more interesting if the gift Dorne gave Darry/Sealord/Viserys was Dany. 

It's especially interesting to me that the author named the person that would have brought this gift from Dorne, Oberyn.  A character who seems to be named after the fairy king in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Fairies are notorious in folklore  for replacing children with changelings.   And in Shakespeare's tale Oberon and his wife had recently taken the son of an Indian Prince and replaced him with a changeling.

 

Well I don't object to her being a changeling really, but I do strongly doubt any version of how that might have happened that has Viserys being in on it. As I said in a previous post, if Viserys's sister was swapped, it was while she was a baby, and very shortly after her birth, without him noticing.

However I also think the official version of who she is is strong. It fits with her bringing dragons back.

On the other hand, if Dany is actually descended from Maegor, son of Aerion, that would also fit with her bringing dragons back.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[Gilbert Green]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

One of the wikis quoted GRRM in saying that she was five years old when she left Braavos

IIRC that was some app.  A semi-canon sources.  I rather think his "not telling" 2017 answer takes precedence.  But it may have some weight.

[Alester Florent]

What if the lemon tree was a present from Doran and/or Oberyn that Oberyn brought to Braavos when he was there to agree the deal?

There's our Dornish/lemon/Braavos connection and it doesn't require any unconfirmed conspiracies or swapped babies or confused memories at all!

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lyanna does not die giving birth to Jon, in my hypothesis.  She dies 10 months later, giving birth to the girl we know as Dany.

I'm not sure you're willing to engage with my hypothesis.  You seem to want to mock it for contradicting standard R+L=J theories.  I can't stop you, I guess.

No, I've asked the same two questions two times and both times, failing to give an answer you've purposefully ignored them so don't be too surprised.

Also...

Quote

. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

 The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Numerous Questions (westeros.org)

Edited July 10, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Well I don't object to her being a changeling really, but I do strongly doubt any version of how that might have happened that has Viserys being in on it. As I said in a previous post, if Viserys's sister was swapped, it was while she was a baby, and very shortly after her birth, without him noticing.

However I also think the official version of who she is is strong. It fits with her bringing dragons back.

On the other hand, if Dany is actually descended from Maegor, son of Aerion, that would also fit with her bringing dragons back.

Fair enough, the idea of Viserys being “in on it”, just doesn’t bother me.  He would have viewed her as his only coin to get an army, but to do so he had to make sure she was raised as his sister to make it convincing.  Viserys’ obsession with the Iron Throne would have fueled him for this deception.

It also explains his behavior when it was time for her marriage to Drogo.  Instead of being conflicted about losing his last blood relative, he only seems concerned that she would be acceptable to Drogo.  Which is strange for someone who so strongly believes in Targaryen superiority.  He’s also very concerned that she look like a Princess.

Nothing definitive, just stuff that makes me go hmmm.

[Frey family reunion]

16 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

On the other hand, if Dany is actually descended from Maegor, son of Aerion, that would also fit with her bringing dragons back.

I’d argue that her bloodlines are much more similar to Maegor son of Aegon and Visenya.  More so than her brothers or the Targaryen noble family at the time of the Rebellion.  My guess is that she was the reuniting of bloodlines broken off since the Dance, from House Velaryon and House Targaryen.  Probably through brothels frequented by Aerys and his Master of Ships, Lucerys Velaryon.

I find it kind of interesting that she tries to gift him garments that are close to House Velaryon colors;

Quote

“She was arranging the last of his gifts—a sandsilk cloak, green as grass, with a pale grey border that would bring out the silver in his hair—when Viserys arrived, dragging Doreah by the arm.”

Edited July 10, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Gilbert Green]

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No, I've asked the same two questions two times and both times, failing to give an answer you've purposefully ignored them so don't be too surprised.

I answered both your questions in two separate posts.  Look upthread.  Edit - they appear on page 6 of the thread, back to back.

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also...

. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

 

The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Numerous Questions (westeros.org)

Rhaella's daughter was 'most likely' named by Rhaella.  Lyanna's daughter was 'most likely' named by Lyanna.  GRRM's statement is true no matter which of the two Danys he is referring to.  There is nothing in this SSM that contradicts the hypothesis.

To my mind, this is a slightly weaker version of the argument that Jon cannot be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna because the appendix says he is Ned's bastard.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Mourning Star]

16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also...

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

 The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Numerous Questions (westeros.org)

To point out the obvious, "Dany" is not the same name as Daenerys, and I think there are a lot of people who don't think Jon's real name is Jon at all, but Aegon.

"Danny" is a northern name, as in Danny Flint. Lyanna's Grandmother was a Flint.

GRRM likes his name games, just look at the titles of the chapters, and probably also something with Willem/Willam.

[Hippocras]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’d argue that her bloodlines are much more similar to Maegor son of Aegon and Visenya.  More so than her brothers or the Targaryen noble family at the time of the Rebellion.  My guess is that she was the reuniting of bloodlines broken off since the Dance, from House Velaryon and House Targaryen.  Probably through brothels frequented by Aerys and his Master of Ships, Lucerys Velaryon.

 

I think the breaking of bloodlines happened long before the Dance actually. I have lots of ideas about this theme but there is little solid evidence to work with just yet. Lots of huge gaps in even the more detailed family trees.

Still, I think what it comes down to is that you seem to see Dany as a force of good, and are looking at what we do know of bloodlines from that perspective.

I, on the other hand, see Dany as the Fire equivalent of the Night King. She will bring her dragons and help fight the Night King, yes. But dragons cannot be controlled and nor can Dany, and fire is a truly terrible DESTRUCTIVE force. So when I look at theories for who Dany may be, other than who she thinks she is, I am looking for a story of what makes her the right person to bring something that is ultimately evil to the world.

[Sandy Clegg]

32 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

17 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Jon by Ned.

This does kind of indicate that Jon couldn't have been born to Lyanna nine months before she had Dany, though, doesn't it? If GRRM flat out says Ned named Jon, then George is either ...

1. sticking to established canon (Jon is Ned's bastard)
2. alluding to the commonly believed fact: that Ned is there at Jon's birth, when Lyanna died. Or ...
3. using careful wording ('most likely') to metaphorically cross his fingers - if the Lyanna having two children in one year theory is still held to be true. 

I'm not sure I like option 3 as it seems a bit weasely for George. He'd usually give more of a 'no comment' type answer in this case.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Sandy Clegg
clarity

[Corvo the Crow]

13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

To point out the obvious, "Dany" is not the same name as Daenerys, and I think there are a lot of people who don't think Jon's real name is Jon at all, but Aegon.

 

To point out the obvious, the person that was asked is Daenerys, who is constantly referred to as Dany despite her chapters being named Daenerys book after book, think of it like Brandon being referred to as Bran or Eddard and Edric Ned.

Also if you want to go that route:

Neither did he say Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannisters it could be any Jon and Tyrion 

Even if he said Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister, there could be dozens of Jon Snows in the north and I'm pretty sure we could find more than one Tyrion Lannister with the Lannisters being a damnably fertile house. 

He also didn't say Tyrion was named by Tywin Lannister, so even if the  Tyrion mentioned is the dwarf Tyrion Lannister that is known as Tywin's son, how do we know if it wasn't Moonboy who named him? We also know who the fuck this Ned guy is, is it Ned the Edric Dayne, Ned the Eddard Stark, or an entirely different Ned?

Really dumb route to go as you would've surely noticed by now.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Hippocras]

39 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lyanna does not die giving birth to Jon, in my hypothesis.  She dies 10 months later, giving birth to the girl we know as Dany.

I'm not sure you're willing to engage with my hypothesis.  You seem to want to mock it for contradicting standard R+L=J theories.  I can't stop you, I guess.

It doesn't fit with Ned's timeline. Lyanna only had one child. Unless she had twins, but that would be extremely gimmicky IMO.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

It doesn't fit with Ned's timeline. Lyanna only had one child. Unless she had twins, but that would be extremely gimmicky IMO.

Lyanna may very well have squeezed two pregnancies during that time frame we've explicitly not been told the length of. The problem with the theory here is that GRRM himself gave times for Dany's and Jon's births in SSMs.

 

24 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I answered both your questions in two separate posts.  Look upthread.  Edit - they appear on page 6 of the thread, back to back.

38 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sorry my bad, Dany one didn't pop up for some reason. 

[Mourning Star]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

To point out the obvious, the person that was asked is Daenerys, who is constantly referred to as Dany despite her chapters being named book after book, think of it like Brandon being referred to as Bran or Eddard and Edric Ned.

The chapter names change for the same character, I expect to see a "Dany" chapter or a few before the series is over.

This is part of how GRRM plays with "identity".

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Also if you want to go that route:

Neither did he say Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannisters it could be any Jon and Tyrion 

Ok sure. I'm not big on using quotes from the author instead of the text in the first place.

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Even if he said Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister, there could be dozens of Jon Snows in the north and I'm pretty sure we could find more than one Tyrion Lannister with the Lannisters being a damnably fertile house. 

I'm not sure what your point is, but ya sure, people can have the same name.

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

He also didn't say Tyrion was named by Tywin Lannister, so even if the  Tyrion mentioned is the dwarf Tyrion Lannister that is known as Tywin's son, how do we know if it wasn't Moonboy who named him? We also know who the fuck this Ned guy is, is it Ned the Edric Dayne, Ned the Eddard Stark, or an entirely different Ned?

Ok, I don't know why you'd think this but yes obviously not naming Tywin as Tyrions father in the quote you supplied seems just as intriguing as not saying who Dany's mother was.

Edric Dayne is younger than Jon.

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Really dumb route to go as you would've surely noticed by now.

I mean you sound dumb sure, but you must have thought there was a reason to ask dumb questions.

The clear difference between making up imaginary characters with the same name as an existing character and the theory that Dany doesn't know her past is textual evidence.