What is compelling about having Daenerys be someone other than the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella?

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Thank you. 

In all honesty, I am not looking forward to a point-by-point rebuttal.  Which is entirely my problem and not yours.  What I anticipate, perhaps unfairly, is constant reiterations of "That does not necessarily mean..." and "That does not prove...".  Can we start by taking for granted that it is only a theory, and none of these points necessarily prove anything, especially in isolation?

But again, it's not up to me.  And it is only fair that 36 points get 36 rebuttals. 

Okay, since you don't want point by point I won't respond that way. Instead I will try and condense my thoughts into a few longer paragraphs.

I think Viserys is the 'weak link' in this theory, so to speak. Points about the way he treats and speaks to Daenerys are easily explained by him just being a rude person. If it was only Daenerys he spoke to in this way I would be more suspicious. But we see he is also rude to Jorah, Doreah and eventually Khal Drogo and co. when drunk. If Viserys was aware Daenerys wasn't really Daenerys, why does he bother to tell her all the stuff about 'their' escape from Dragonstone, the Targaryen blood and so on, multiple times? Is Illyrio persuading him to do so in some way to try and reinforce the false identity? Finally, based on how we see Viserys act in the book, I would not think he was a good person to include in a plot such as this at all. He is rash, quick to anger, arrogant, prideful, overestimates his own capabilities and we see him get drunk. 

I think the theory would make more sense if Viserys was not in the know. Based on your point about Viserys not being present at the House with the Red Door, which I agree with for the purpose of the theory, I would like to propose my own 'take' on the theory, though it will be quite speculative:

I think, as suggested by one of your points, that there was a 'real' Daenerys, but like many of Aerys and Rhaella's children, she did not live very long. Someone, probably Illyrio, had a vested interest in covering up this death so he could put his Dothraki plan into action later. There is a theory I find quite convincing that his original plan was to use the Dothraki to sow chaos before having Aegon swoop in as a sort of saviour. Viserys is somehow separated from her before she dies, so he doesn't know she's dead, I can imagine some comments about it being for his 'protection' or something. When Viserys next sees 'Daenerys' it is post House with the Red Door.

As for where Illyrio sourced 'Daenerys', excluding Braavos, I would say either Lys or Tyrosh. I am still not convinced by Dorne, because lemons are not exclusive to Dorne, and if it was in Dorne, why would Oberyn need to travel to Braavos to sign the marriage pact? I don't see the point unless he was that invested in having the Sealord as a witness. Both Lys and Tyrosh should, looking at the map, have the right climate to grow lemons. Tyrosh would explain 'Daenerys' accent, and fits with the original draft, though as you said accents can change. As far as I am aware the version of the theory we are discussing here has 'Daenerys' being a young bedslave-in-training at some point. The two slaving cities famed for bedslaves are Yunkai and Lys. Lys I think has several advantages for being the place over Yunkai. It is closer to where everyone involved in the plan is at the time, and if someone brought 'Daenerys' there before, it would be a better place to hide her, because Valyrian features are very common in the city, so she wouldn't stand out. There's also something in Lys called the 'Perfumed Garden' and the Wiki says the Lyseni perfume their hair, which would explain 'Daenerys' linking the rose oils to her childhood. Lys is also a noted exporter of perfumes. I don't see Yunkai or Tyrosh or Dorne having the same strength of connection with perfume. For what it's worth, Varys is also from Lys. We also have another example of Illyrio sourcing a bedslave from Lys, since he got Doreah there.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

As for where Illyrio sourced 'Daenerys', excluding Braavos, I would say either Lys or Tyrosh. I am still not convinced by Dorne, because lemons are not exclusive to Dorne, and if it was in Dorne, why would Oberyn need to travel to Braavos to sign the marriage pact? I don't see the point unless he was that invested in having the Sealord as a witness. Both Lys and Tyrosh should, looking at the map, have the right climate to grow lemons. Tyrosh would explain 'Daenerys' accent, and fits with the original draft, though as you said accents can change. 

I am not sure you caught my point on the Lemongate thread so I will draw your attention to it here:

I am pretty sure, due to the frequency with which Dorne is associated with lemons in these books, that the lemon tree IS meant to be a reference to Dorne. It is not Tyrosh or Lys that are mentioned over and over and over again in association with lemons. Sure, lemons can grow there, but GRRM has really made clear that we are supposed to associate lemons with Dorne.

However it does not at all need to mean that the lemon tree is actually IN Dorne. Instead, I think the lemon tree should be seen as a tree (in Braavos where it is distinctly out of place) that was given as a GIFT, and is meant to reference the plots, schemes and relationships that are symbolized by that gift. We know after all that the Sealord had a menagerie and collected exotic species. Collecting a lemon tree from Dorne follows the same logic. So the Prince of Dorne gifted a lemon tree to the Sealord of Braavos as part of the general ceremonies and gestures of goodwill between the conspirators. The lemon tree is a symbol of the conspiracy, of which Dorne is a part. It is NOT a sign that Dany grew up in Dorne (or even Tyrosh or Lys).

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Hippocras said:

However it does not at all need to mean that the lemon tree is actually IN Dorne. Instead, I think the lemon tree should be seen as a tree (in Braavos where it is distinctly out of place) that was given as a GIFT, and is meant to reference the plots, schemes and relationships that are symbolized by that gift. We know after all that the Sealord had a menagerie and collected exotic species. Collecting a lemon tree from Dorne follows the same logic. So the Prince of Dorne gifted a lemon tree to the Sealord of Braavos as part of the general ceremonies and gestures of goodwill between the conspirators. The lemon tree is a symbol of the conspiracy, of which Dorne is a part. It is NOT a sign that Dany grew up in Dorne (or even Tyrosh or Lys).

I thought it could be in Braavos, but supposedly the climate would prevent one from growing or surviving there because there isn't enough warmth and sunlight.

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

I am pretty sure, due to the frequency with which Dorne is associated with lemons in these books, that the lemon tree IS meant to be a reference to Dorne.

It could be, but then why not make lemons exclusive to Dorne? Why mention them growing in other places including Meereen?

[Hippocras]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought it could be in Braavos, but supposedly the climate would prevent one from growing or surviving there because there isn't enough warmth and sunlight.

It could be, but then why not make lemons exclusive to Dorne? Why mention them growing in other places including Meereen?

I think it would be a matter of extra levels of care, and maybe even some mirrors and candles or something for extra light. If a very rich person is determined to make something grow where it does not belong they can usually find a way, and GRRM does mention lemons in gardens of the very rich of Braavos.

As for mentioning other places, sure. They grow there. But the references to Dorne and lemons are still on quite a different level. Everywhere else it is a casual reference. With Dorne it is a deliberate association. Besides, Tyrosh we already know is in on the Dornish plans. The Archon's brother was at Dany's wedding, and his daughter is one of the children in the water gardens of Dorne.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Hippocras

[Corvo the Crow]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Good point. Maybe this is an example of what George means by us having to "work things out" though? It made me do a mini dive into the seasonal mechanics, which I haven't done in a while. It seems that George likes to keep the exact length of seasons vague, with Maesters using astronomical means to calculate years and 'minor summers/winters' being more subjective interpretations depending on where in Westeros you live. 

Let's set aside the fact that Tyrion is reliably flippant, and everything we know of him tells us that exaggerating the number of winters he has seen - just to wind up Watchmen at the Wall in a boastful manner - would be entirely in keeping with his character. Seeing 8-9 winters in his 25 years lifespan is not impossible. Even if the last ten were from the Long Summer. But as Mormont responds: "all of them short". A derisive comment, as if to say 'not really winters at all then, lad.'

So the discrepancy between Gared's comment and Tyrion's really just throws these two views of 'what is winter' into relief. It's likely that, living at the Wall, Watchmen don't really consider the short winters as real winters at all. And Gared, as a hardened crow, is only bothering to recall what he considers 'true' winters -  in conversation, remember, with Ser Weymar. Like Tyrion, he's another 'Southron lord' who (from Gared's point of view) wouldn't know what true winter was if it bit him on the arse.

So it's another example of how George builds his world's ambiguity with regards to the seasons. Tyrion is an educated southern lord and  'knows' when winters occur, even when they don't feel like one. He learned from a maester and has an objective view of such things. The Watchmen, on the other hand .... they stick their heads outside and decide if it's 'Winter' on whether or not their ears fall off. They 'feel' winter rather than relying on star charts or calendars. It's another aspect of the world-building, highlighting the seasonal dicrepancies, Tyrions flippancy and the Nights Watchmen's stoicism all in one interaction.

Oh but they have a maester at Castle Black too, so they are in communication with the Oldtown. Also in the North they even get summer snows, while the south is all hot and sunny, what would be a short winter for the south would be much worse for the North. 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

This could be easily waved away by saying Gared and Tyrion have double standards for winter.

What is a short winter for Tyrion  would be much worse for Gared in a place that is too far to the North especially when there are even summer snows so I really doubt it. Maesters declare the coming of winters and announce it by sending white ravens from Citadel so that everyone, at least everyone with access to maesters, learn and Castle Black has a maester. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Lemon - Wikipedia

It says Lemon requires a minimum temperature of around 7 °C I very much doubt that Braavos goes much colder than that for much of the years with no winter around. 

[Frey family reunion]

31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lemon - Wikipedia

It says Lemon requires a minimum temperature of around 7 °C I very much doubt that Braavos goes much colder than that for much of the years with no winter around. 

I'm pretty sure your trolling with this, but just in case your not, I'll respond.

The issue is that the author wants to put it in the readers mind that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos, and furthermore wants the reader to associate lemon trees with growing in Dorne.  So what the reader needs to figure out, with this backdrop, is why Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the window of her Braavosi home.

My takeaway is that the author may be giving a hint that Dany's memory of the lemon tree occurred in Dorne, and thus Dany at a very, very young age moved from Dorne to Braavos.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

I am not sure you caught my point on the Lemongate thread so I will draw your attention to it here:

I am pretty sure, due to the frequency with which Dorne is associated with lemons in these books, that the lemon tree IS meant to be a reference to Dorne. It is not Tyrosh or Lys that are mentioned over and over and over again in association with lemons. Sure, lemons can grow there, but GRRM has really made clear that we are supposed to associate lemons with Dorne.

However it does not at all need to mean that the lemon tree is actually IN Dorne. Instead, I think the lemon tree should be seen as a tree (in Braavos where it is distinctly out of place) that was given as a GIFT, and is meant to reference the plots, schemes and relationships that are symbolized by that gift. We know after all that the Sealord had a menagerie and collected exotic species. Collecting a lemon tree from Dorne follows the same logic. So the Prince of Dorne gifted a lemon tree to the Sealord of Braavos as part of the general ceremonies and gestures of goodwill between the conspirators. The lemon tree is a symbol of the conspiracy, of which Dorne is a part. It is NOT a sign that Dany grew up in Dorne (or even Tyrosh or Lys).

That's a bit anticlimatic.  I think it's much more interesting if the gift Dorne gave Darry/Sealord/Viserys was Dany. 

It's especially interesting to me that the author named the person that would have brought this gift from Dorne, Oberyn.  A character who seems to be named after the fairy king in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Fairies are notorious in folklore  for replacing children with changelings.   And in Shakespeare's tale Oberon and his wife had recently taken the son of an Indian Prince and replaced him with a changeling.

 

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lemon - Wikipedia

It says Lemon requires a minimum temperature of around 7 °C I very much doubt that Braavos goes much colder than that for much of the years with no winter around. 

What about sunlight?  Hard to get much of it under the shelter of a large stone building, within "the Hidden City" whose constant cloud/fog cover hid it from flying dragons.

Anyhow, you are arguing against the author.  He has acknowledged the lemon-tree climate discrepancy, and told us it points to something spoilerish ("... that would be telling").

Which would be a pretty trollish thing to do if the only thing he were hinting at was that it was summer when Dany was roughly 5 years old.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Which would be a pretty trollish thing to do if the only thing he were hinting at was that it was summer when Dany was roughly 5 years old.

You know, it actually was.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You know, it actually was.

How did you work that out?

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

My takeaway is that the author may be giving a hint that Dany's memory of the lemon tree occurred in Dorne, and thus Dany at a very, very young age moved from Dorne to Braavos.

Which would be very poor writing considering no character in Dorne knows about it and Viserys doesn’t mention it, not to mention the fact Dany has a Tyroshi accent.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

How did you work that out?

Bran being a summer child.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Which would be very poor writing considering no character in Dorne knows about it and Viserys doesn’t mention it, not to mention the fact Dany has a Tyroshi accent.

Presumably Doran would know, and Oberyn knew as well.  

Dany doesn't have a Tyroshi accent.  Dany speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accent.  So the question may be when and where did Dany first learn Valyrian?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Which would be very poor writing considering no character in Dorne knows about it and Viserys doesn’t mention it, not to mention the fact Dany has a Tyroshi accent.

The biggest thing which rules out Dorne for me (aside from lemons being found elsewhere) is that if it was in Dorne, why on earth would Oberyn be travelling to Braavos to sign the pact? Why not just do it in Dorne since everyone involved is there already? Did he just really, really want the Sealord as a witness?

Overall, I think if it isn't Braavos, then Tyrosh or possibly Lys (if there was an outright baby swap) is the most likely location.

[Gilbert Green]

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You know, it actually was.

Yes, I agree that it was summer when Dany was 5 years old.

I just don't think GRRM was hinting at that when he said "That would be telling".  Because that does not look like a spoilerish secret to me.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How did you work that out?

Oh also 

Quote

That is so, my lady. The white ravens fly only from the Citadel." Cressen's fingers went to the chain about his neck, each link forged from a different metal, each symbolizing his mastery of another branch of learning; the maester's collar, mark of his order. In the pride of his youth, he had worn it easily, but now it seemed heavy to him, the metal cold against his skin. "They are larger than other ravens, and more clever, bred to carry only the most important messages. This one came to tell us that the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory."

 

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Dany doesn't have a Tyroshi accent.  Dany speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accent.  So the question may be when and where did Dany first learn Valyrian?

As soon as she was old enough to speak and go out, cause, you know, they all speak bastard dialects in the free cities. Real question should be how did she even learn High Valyrian, being broke as they are. Viserys thought her is no option because he was a child himself when they left.

[Frey family reunion]

25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As soon as she was old enough to speak and go out, cause, you know, they all speak bastard dialects in the free cities. Real question should be how did she even learn High Valyrian, being broke as they are. Viserys thought her is no option because he was a child himself when they left.

After Braavos, they were hosted in Myr and then in Tyrosh, living at the largess of others.  Presumably it was her time in Tyrosh where she was taught High Valyrian.  Interestingly enough, during the time they were in Tyrosh, the green haird daughter of the Archon was sent to Dorne.  Which makes me wonder if they didn't want her to come in contact with Viserys and/or Dany.

Edit: Looking back at the quote, it does not appear that she was speaking in High Valyrian at the market.  It just says the Valyrian of the free cities.  

Quote

“Dany smiled. “My son has his name, but I will try your summerwine,” she said in Valyrian, Valyrian as they spoke it in the Free Cities. The words felt strange on her tongue, after so long. “Just a taste, if you would be so kind.”
        The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. “My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?”
        “My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms,” Dany told him.”

It’s interesting that Valyrian felt strange on her tongue since presumably that would have been her primary language growing up.  My takeaway is that she may have mainly spoke the common tongue during her childhood.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Frey family reunion