Ukraine War: Wagner’s fading thrust

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The west however absolutely want's to extinguish the Slavic culture for a more modern 'European" copy.  

Oh no. Democracy. A wealthier nation. Rule of law. Equibilty

the humanity. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Hey do you want you to look up Russia’s rate drug abuse, divorce, abortion, homelessness, child-abandonment, HIV prevalence? 

You know the reason Russia has always struggled with depression and death (as is a major theme in Russian literature) is the struggle of being part of a country not focused on the material well-being of its people but the glory and independence of its state.  

Fighting against a more powerful enemy just to stay in the fight has caused much grief for its people, but that doesn't mean they are doomed. 

Corruption can be beat back and people can find meaning in suffering and find joys in life. Russia has been beaten down before, and this current mafia (created by western reforms) won't be around forever. 

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Is gluttony here they don’t beat/kill the gays when they kiss in public? 

Lol, gross overexaggerating. Lots of liberals in Moscow actually. But you're not completely wrong either. 

A lot of the stuff Russians see on media, the pride parades filled with public nudity, the twerking on children, the chemical injection into minors, etc. has made the more scared of the west. 

This is just their perspective, you can disagree, but Ukrainians are also like this. Even if you don't know them, you can read it on their social media. It's in Cyrillic though.  

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Boy howdy you should go tell some Ukrainians that right now, to their face, I suggest the most nationalistic. They must not know the nation murdering their men , raping their women and stealing their children are their saviors.

 

I know a lot of Ukrainians, more recently a bunch of refugees from Lvov. My extended family too. And yeah their are the hardcore nationalists who would be part of the right sector and enjoy getting into bar fights. 

But there are a lot of them who just want the war to end and are far less obsessed with revenge than a westerner like you who is living vicariously through this war like its a Rambo movie or something.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I know a lot of Ukrainians, more recently a bunch of refugees from Lvov. My extended family too. And yeah their are the hardcore nationalists who would be part of the right sector and enjoy getting into bar fights. 

But there are a lot of them who just want the war to end and are far less obsessed with revenge than a westerner like you who is living vicariously through this war like its a Rambo movie or something. 

Again… are the bullets, landmines, thermoberic missiles, artillery rounds, grenades, cruise missiles, and various other weapons being used against Ukrainian civilians… an act of love by Russia?

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Fuck… that… horseshit.  You don’t “make a culture Russia friendly” by brutalizing the people you claim you are “helping”… or were the people killed by the Russian Army in Bucha and all over Ukraine… “just a big misunderstanding”.  The Ukrainians mistook those “friendly bullets, grenades, artillery rounds, and missiles” for having lethal intent when they really weren’t ment that way… huh?

The thing that really floors me about you Russian apologists is the way you deploy “Abusive Spouse Logic” without an ounce of shame or self regard.  You Russians are killing Ukrianians because you love them so much… right?

https://www.pbs.org/video/crime-scene-bucha/

Russia's aim is to win the war, and their military doctrine requires lots of civilian causalities. But there is no systemic targeting of Ukrainian civilians. 

Infrastructure works as a military goal, but most of the buildings hit are either a miss shot aimed at something else or, more likely, a Ukrainian anti-missile defense system going haywire or damaging a rocket so it doesn't propel far enough and hits some random apartment. 

Now you can say this is going to lead to Russia's loss. But their aim is absolutely not to destroy the civilian population. 

As for Bucha, you'd have to believe that was an order from way up for that to fit your world view. 

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh no. Democracy. A wealthier nation. Rule of law. Equibilty

the humanity. 

Fine, you've got the same ideology as the Romans, convert less civilized cultures to the enlightened ways. Same with Cortez. 

Maybe that is moral, but then that severely damages the rhetoric that this war is about independence and sovereignty or 'freedom'. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Fine, you've got the same ideology as the Romans, convert less civilized cultures to the enlightened ways

Ukrainians seem down to those enlightened ways.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, butterweedstrover said:

Russia's aim is to win the war, and their military doctrine requires lots of civilian causalities. But there is no systemic targeting of Ukrainian civilians. 

Infrastructure works as a military goal, but most of the buildings hit are either a miss shot aimed at something else or, more likely, a Ukrainian anti-missile defense system going haywire or damaging a rocket so it doesn't propel far enough and hits some random apartment. 

Now you can say this is going to lead to Russia's loss. But their aim is absolutely not to destroy the civilian population. 

As for Bucha, you'd have to believe that was an order from way up for that to fit your world view. 

If “Russian doctrine requires lots of civilian casualties” how, pray tell, can you in the next sentence claim “there is no systematic targeting of civilians”.  You do see the contradiction… don’t you?

You need to accept that Russia has forged a new Ukranian identity absolutely distinct from Russia with its brutal “doctrine”.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Fine, you've got the same ideology as the Romans, convert less civilized cultures to the enlightened ways. Same with Cortez. 

Maybe that is moral, but then that severely damages the rhetoric that this war is about independence and sovereignty or 'freedom'. 

 

Same horseshit.  Got it.

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Again… are the bullets, landmines, thermoberic missiles, artillery rounds, grenades, cruise missiles, and various other weapons being used against Ukrainian civilians… an act of love by Russia?

Well none of this is an act of love, imperialism isn't about love. 

But the goal isn't to kill Ukrainian civilians, in fact Russia's military doctrine in Ukraine is vastly different from Syria or Afghanistan or Chechnya where they didn't care at all. They've gone out of their way, relative to their goal of a complete military victory, to avoid the slaughter of civilians. 

Not that Ukrainians who died that way care. But you'd be surprised by how many people in Odessa and even Lvov are more scared of Ukrainian draft call sending them as cannon fodder to the frontlines than they are of a stray Russian missile.   

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Maybe that is moral, but then that severely damages the rhetoric that this war is about independence and sovereignty or 'freedom'. 

Because Ukrainians electing a different path from what You’d prefer shows their not free.

10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The thing that really floors me about you Russian apologists is the way you deploy “Abusive Spouse Logic” without an ounce of shame or self regard.

I get a little bit of a jilted ex.

”Why isn’t Ukraine sticking with me instead of going with the west just because they have more money and give them more things. I should beat them.”

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If “Russian doctrine requires lots of civilian casualties” how, pray tell, can you in the next sentence claim “there is no systematic targeting of civilians”.  You do see the contradiction… don’t you?

You need to accept that Russia has forged a new Ukranian identity absolutely distinct from Russia with its brutal “doctrine”.

 

Russian military doctrine accepts high rates of causalities, it does not aim to kill civilian. This has been true since the 16th century, they use quantity to overwhelm the enemy which is less discriminatory than targeted strikes. 

But again, in Ukraine they are going out of their way not to kill the civilian population. There are even pro-war bloggers who are complaining this reluctance is harming Russian troops on the frontline. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But there are a lot of them who just want the war to end and are far less obsessed with revenge than a westerner like you who is living vicariously through this war like its a Rambo movie or something.  

Hey wanna share some reputable polling in regards to Ukrainian feeling regarding the war effort Dude?

Like you must know one that doesn’t show the position you’d like Ukrainians to have isn’t a rarity.

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Because Ukrainians electing a different path from what You’d prefer shows their not free.

I get a little bit of a jilted ex.

”Why isn’t Ukraine sticking with me instead of going with the west just because they have more money and give them more things. I should beat them.”

Having the idea that this is all Ukrainian free will ignores how many Ukrainians had to be killed, silenced, or lied to. And most under false promises that not much would change, just the money. But money always comes with strings attached, countries learn this after its too late. 

The terrorizing of civilians in Donbas and the arming of Neo-nazis to murder political opponents is usually not in the western playbook. But desperate times I guess.   

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russian military doctrine accepts high rates of causalities, it does not aim to kill civilian. This has been true since the 16th century, they use quantity to overwhelm the enemy which is less discriminatory than targeted strikes. 

But again, in Ukraine they are going out of their way not to kill the civilian population. There are even pro-war bloggers who are complaining this reluctance is harming Russian troops on the frontline. 

https://www.pbs.org/video/crime-scene-bucha/
 

How was that “going out of their way not to kill the civilian population”???

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Hey wanna share some reputable polling in regards to Ukrainian feeling regarding the war effort Dude?

Like you must know one that doesn’t show the position you’d like Ukrainians to have isn’t a rarity.

Get to know some Ukrainians. Talk to them, polling only shows one side of the data. 

First the government terrorizes and arrests pro-Russian elements. Then they tell their country if we don't kidnap you in the streets and send you running into the frontlines with barely any ammo, Russia will kill you all. 

That's a convincing sales pitch. But if you ask them about the Western goals as we known, you know their not all that excited to die in front of fortified positions. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Having the idea that this is all Ukrainian free will ignores how many Ukrainians had to be killed, silenced, or lied to. And most under false promises that not much would change, just the money. But money always comes with strings attached, countries learn this after its too late. 

The terrorizing of civilians in Donbas and the arming of Neo-nazis to murder political opponents is usually not in the western playbook. But desperate times I guess.   

If you kill enough Ukrainians they’ll accept they are really Russians… that’s your plan.  Did it work for Stalin in the Holodomor?

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

https://www.pbs.org/video/crime-scene-bucha/
 

How was that “going out of their way not to kill the civilian population”???

Again, unless you claim this was authorized from way up, then I can show you footage of American GIs firing at Iraqi civilians. But the US never wanted to exterminate the population. 

Russia has a ton of barrel bombs, they could level Kiev if they wanted to, but they are not trying to destroy the civilian population (like many pro-war westerners argue). 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Get to know some Ukrainians. Talk to them, polling only shows one side of the data. 

First the government terrorizes and arrests pro-Russian elements. Then they tell their country if we don't kidnap you in the streets and send you running into the frontlines with barely any ammo, Russia will kill you all. 

That's a convincing sales pitch. But if you ask them about the Western goals as we known, you know their not all that excited to die in front of fortified positions. 

I know… lots of Ukrainians.  They come to church wearing sunflower dresses and Ukraine trident tee-shirts.  Telling us what it was like living under the (oh so loving) Russian artillery bombardment of the Russian speaking city of Karkiv.

You are fucking deluded.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Again, unless you claim this was authorized from way up, then I can show you footage of American GIs firing at Iraqi civilians. But the US never wanted to exterminate the population. 

Russia has a ton of barrel bombs, they could level Kiev if they wanted to, but they are not trying to destroy the civilian population (like many pro-war westerners argue). 

How does anything the US did in Iraq justify anything Russia is doing in Ukraine?

Are you claiming Bucha was “all a big misunderstanding”?

Edited July 9, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Zorral]

if Ukraine is Russia, and filled overwhelmingly with Russian identifying folk, and want to be Russia, instead of Ukraine,  why has Russia invaded it as a war of conquest and occupation, and why is the Ukraine population mobilized to fight against the invasion and conquest, and why have all those Russian run away from Russia to Asia to avoid fighting in the army of invasion and occupation?  Also why is it that all the Ukrainians I know here in the USA, starting with the stylists at my hair salon, so anti to Russia?

Good grief the kind of typos and spelling errors I'm making -- I must give up being on the internet at all, and should have hours ago except to watch tv.  erk.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Zorral