Morally, what are the worst things Jon & Daenerys have done in the story?

[csuszka1948]

Honestly that 'impossible odds' thing is my biggest problem with the Slaver's Bay plotline, and it seems a bit of a retcon.

Yunkai - which has lost all its slaves and most of its wealth and should have been hit hardest economically - somehow magically recovers, they are able to hire a tons of sellswords (who don't turn against them and sack the city, which seems to be the winning option), defeat Astapor and become the leaders of the slaver coalition (!), despite New Ghis provides much more soldiers.

At the same time, the 30% slaver minority of Meereen - which was meek as sheep at the end of ASOS and lined up for the slaughter - somehow starts a terrorist campaign and Dany doesn't do anything as an answer (this before the dragon incident which traumatised her). It's not just Dany who doesn't do anything (for example taking away their weapons), but the slaves themselves do not take any action, revenge for the ones the Harpies killed, even though that would be the most logical consequence. It's supposed to be a KKK parallel I guess, but the difference is that the local state leadership usually quietly supported (or tolerated) the KKK's action and whites were the majority in the region, not the minority.

After Astapor is defeated (which is in large part Dany's mistake, but for some reason the Shavepate was also against the march because he feared that the Harpies would take over), the slaver coalition groups together. They have 70 thousand men versus the 22 thousand men of Dany, so she understandably doesn't go into battle with them, instead lets them die from illness outside the gates.

However, after Dany's departure and their original leaders' passing their leadership turns out to be awful (rotating leadership my ass) and a few weeks of illness they become so weak that Barristan has a decent chance to defeat them and their sellswords start to turn their backs on them. Besides, the Volantene fleet also might have a slave revolution, bc they didn't count with that possibility.

 

I get that it's supposed to be some kind of big comeback from the anti-slavery coalition, but it still looks incredibly unbelievable (although in real life similar things happen rarely). I think the Battle of Ice sets up Stannis winning as an underdog much better with the lake trap and the discovery of the Karstark treachery than the Battle of Fire a potential Targaryen 'underdog' win.  

Edited June 28, 2023 by csuszka1948

[BlackLightning]

9 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

After Astapor is defeated (which is in large part Dany's mistake, but for some reason the Shavepate was also against the march because he feared that the Harpies would take over), the slaver coalition groups together.

I don't think you can blame Dany for the defeat of Astapor.

She told Cleon what not to do and he did it anyway. And Cleon and his successors were vicious idiots

15 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Honestly that 'impossible odds' thing is my biggest problem with the Slaver's Bay plotline, and it seems a bit of a retcon.

Agreed

Astapor should've been almost completely comprised of ex-slaves. Who did they enslave? GRRM wasn't very clear on who was left.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

In Astapor Daenerys could have just killed the Good Masters and then ordered everyone else to give up on slavery.

That would not have worked AT ALL

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

That would not have worked AT ALL

Why do you think it would not work? The issue in Meereen is the former Great Masters are all still alive and funding the Sons of the Harpy. Kill the Good Masters, seize their assets. Give people the option to give up slavery first, rather than auto killing. Many of the dead overseers would be slaves themselves.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why do you think it would not work? The issue in Meereen is the former Great Masters are all still alive and funding the Sons of the Harpy. Kill the Good Masters, seize their assets. Give people the option to give up slavery first, rather than auto killing. Many of the dead overseers would be slaves themselves.

I'm sorry; I should've clarified

This would not have worked in Astapor. And that's what you stated/said...

In Meereen? Sure. 

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This would not have worked in Astapor.

Why would it not have worked in Astapor? From what I can tell, the issue in Meereen is that the Great Masters are still alive to fund and influence the SotH. If Daenerys kills the Good Masters then the same should not be able to happen in Astapor so there is no need to kill anyone else automatically, they only need to be killed if they refuse to give up slavery.

[Gilbert Green]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:35 PM, Jon Snowfyre said:

You also have him thinking to himself thatd he’d be willing to execute all the Wildling hostages, should he need to. But if he would actually follow through with that threat, when and if it came to it, is unknown. He thinks he would though.

He does not think that though.  At least, that's only one possible interpretation of what he thinks, and I doubt it is the correct one.  It may only mean that the execution of Slynt bothers his conscience.  His actual answer -- that he is his father's son -- actually says the exact opposite.  What we know about Ned is that he is against child murder.

Zombie Cregan Karstark, glamoured to look like Jon, will execute those hostages though.

[Gilbert Green]

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

For her worst acts, I am going to go with burning Mirri Maz Duur (but not the death itself) and the 163 masters crucified in retaliation for the similar deaths of child slaves.  I'm not into collective punishment, nor tortuous deaths.

Thank you.  Collective punishment is bad, and so is human sacrifice.  Execution?  Okay.  Human sacrifice to demon gods?  No.

I still suspect a twist where it will be revealed that Daario strung up those kids, and, when caught in the act, claimed he was cutting them down.  But even if I'm wrong, collective punishment still sucks.  And it does not seem that anyone in Meereen was actually able to identify the true culprits.

She probably should have put Drogon down as soon as it ate a child.  That problem's only gonna get worse.

[astarkchoice]

 

 

 

19 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Honestly that 'impossible odds' thing is my biggest problem with the Slaver's Bay plotline, and it seems a bit of a retcon.

Yunkai - which has lost all its slaves and most of its wealth and should have been hit hardest economically - somehow magically recovers, they are able to hire a tons of sellswords (who don't turn against them and sack the city, which seems to be the winning option), defeat Astapor and become the leaders of the slaver coalition (!), despite New Ghis provides much more soldiers.

At the same time, the 30% slaver minority of Meereen - which was meek as sheep at the end of ASOS and lined up for the slaughter - somehow starts a terrorist campaign and Dany doesn't do anything as an answer (this before the dragon incident which traumatised her). It's not just Dany who doesn't do anything (for example taking away their weapons), but the slaves themselves do not take any action, revenge for the ones the Harpies killed, even though that would be the most logical consequence. It's supposed to be a KKK parallel I guess, but the difference is that the local state leadership usually quietly supported (or tolerated) the KKK's action and whites were the majority in the region, not the minority.

After Astapor is defeated (which is in large part Dany's mistake, but for some reason the Shavepate was also against the march because he feared that the Harpies would take over), the slaver coalition groups together. They have 70 thousand men versus the 22 thousand men of Dany, so she understandably doesn't go into battle with them, instead lets them die from illness outside the gates.

However, after Dany's departure and their original leaders' passing their leadership turns out to be awful (rotating leadership my ass) and a few weeks of illness they become so weak that Barristan has a decent chance to defeat them and their sellswords start to turn their backs on them. Besides, the Volantene fleet also might have a slave revolution, bc they didn't count with that possibility.

 

I get that it's supposed to be some kind of big comeback from the anti-slavery coalition, but it still looks incredibly unbelievable (although in real life similar things happen rarely). I think the Battle of Ice sets up Stannis winning as an underdog much better with the lake trap and the discovery of the Karstark treachery than the Battle of Fire a potential Targaryen 'underdog' win.  

Hmmm not really most of it is stil plausible.

Yunkai is beaten and forced to free it slaves who are free to take what they can carry yes BUT  the city remains unsacked !!. thus even if the slaves can take from the masters there it doesnt mean they've  found the masters full wealth  which is probably hidden,  like the mereneese nobles they probably have estates in the hills , we know the great families in the various ghiscari  cities all have family interlinked thus they have rich kin to lean on too and not to mention the iron bank (and dozens of multiple other banks) all mean many families will have credit to borrow with , a surplus of funds or even far away assets to  liquidate!! 

The former slaves in the city many  go with dany but most will remain thus when the sellswords and new ghis legions arrive slaverys back on the menu! The yunkai quickly raise another slave force (bear in mind their former slave army beaten by dany probably  largely exists and will  be  a spoilt loyal slave  caste (otherwise theyd never have gotten the job as troops). The sellswords  wonnt sack  yunkai either.as itd be declaring  war on the rich  familes throughout slavers bay

The seem.to control the effort on mereen as they are 1st to aseemble a.large force(mix of slave troops from 1st force that met dany anf xonstipts)  have their 'pride' to recover, new ghis arrives and are happy to take aback seat to what seemed like an wasy win

 

As for mereens nobles they are at 1st protected by dany (despite her openong slaughter) but we do see with the noble belwas decapitates that a small amount are still martial  and not helpless ....and on top of that she stupidly ends the pit fights which gives the masters the muscle to start a shadow war!

[BlackLightning]

17 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why would it not have worked in Astapor? From what I can tell, the issue in Meereen is that the Great Masters are still alive to fund and influence the SotH. If Daenerys kills the Good Masters then the same should not be able to happen in Astapor so there is no need to kill anyone else automatically, they only need to be killed if they refuse to give up slavery.

Because an former slave killed the ruling council of Astapor, installed himself as king and enslaved the former slaver and slaver-adjacent upper class

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Because an former slave killed the ruling council of Astapor, installed himself as king and enslaved the former slaver and slaver-adjacent upper class

But had the soldiers of Astapor not also been killed but given the chance to renounce slavery, that may never have happened because that ruling council would have a means to defend itself. Which is why the only people who had to be slated for the initial purge were, in my opinion, the Good Masters.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

But had the soldiers of Astapor not also been killed but given the chance to renounce slavery, that may never have happened because that ruling council would have a means to defend itself.

Exactly this and what are Barristan and Jorah even doing besides drooling over a teenage girl who vaguely resemble the women they loved? Even if Dany decided that all the slave soldiers she didn’t buy were to be murdered they could’ve at least told her to leave a force behind to keep the order at least. 

[csuszka1948]

19 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Exactly this and what are Barristan and Jorah even doing besides drooling over a teenage girl who vaguely resemble the women they loved? Even if Dany decided that all the slave soldiers she didn’t buy were to be murdered they could’ve at least told her to leave a force behind to keep the order at least. 

 

 

 

 

 

Jorah gave some useful advice, but he is also a terrible human being, who probably doesn't care about what happens with Astapor.

 

Barristan is kind of a mystery. He doesn't give much of useful advice to Dany (perhaps due to his vows? but he is quite open about giving advice to her in Astapor and about going to Westeros, so no), but somehow becomes competent once Dany leaves. :-D

 

I also think that many things are obvious only in retrospect. For example, it's not that obvious to an outsider that the council Dany put in place will be overthrown by slaves and it's not obvious to Jon (who has spent 2 years at NW) that his Shieldhall speech (+reading out and not denying the contents of the Pink Letter) would be viewed as oathbreaking by some of his brothers who would sacrifice their lives assassinating him. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Corvo the Crow]

17 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I also think that many things are obvious only in retrospect. For example, it's not that obvious to an outsider that the council Dany put in place will be overthrown by slaves and it's not obvious to Jon (who has spent 2 years at NW) that his Shieldhall speech (+reading out and not denying the contents of the Pink Letter) would be viewed as oathbreaking by some of his brothers who would sacrifice their lives assassinating him. 

It’s also obvious in retrospect that Bowen and his band of traitors was going to make a move on Jon anyway so that speech is irrelevant apart from the fact that it hastened things. Also council getting overthrown isn’t important,  King’s Landing, Lannisport, Oldtown etc has guards, do they get coup’d on a daily basis? These are large settlements with tens of thousands of people(well maybe not as much after the Astapori genocide) there will always be problem so guards are needed to keep order and  there are also other slaver cities to the south so external threats exist. Dany just straight off bought slave soldiers, killed the ones she didn’t buy and sack the city and abandoned them with a puppet government. 

[csuszka1948]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It’s also obvious in retrospect that Bowen and his band of traitors was going to make a move on Jon anyway so that speech is irrelevant apart from the fact that it hastened things.

 

 

 

I don't think so. If they wanted to assassinate him from the get go (damn the consequences), they would have done it BEFORE 3 thousand wildlings entered Castle Black. They probably hoped that Jon will go to Hardhome and kill himself.

It was the Pink Letter and Shieldhall speech that crossed the line. 

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also council getting overthrown isn’t important,  King’s Landing, Lannisport, Oldtown etc has guards, do they get coup’d on a daily basis? These are large settlements with tens of thousands of people(well maybe not as much after the Astapori genocide) there will always be problem so guards are needed to keep order and  there are also other slaver cities to the south so external threats exist. Dany just straight off bought slave soldiers, killed the ones she didn’t buy and sack the city and abandoned them with a puppet government. 

 

 

 

They thought that the former slaves would self-govern. They certainly didn't realise that the magnitude of anger and hate simmering in them, because they were never slaves (if anyone should have realised that, it would be Dany, who was sold)

Edited June 29, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

It was kind of obvious that the Council would fall if it was not given power to uphold its rule. It was a pretty basic thing and Daenerys was naïve for leaving them, as far as we can tell, defenceless, given she had all the soldiers in Astapor killed, took the Unsullied away, there is no mention of any replacements, and Cleon has to make do with using all the under twelve slaver boys as soldiers, and then the Astapori were so desperate they sent out Cleon's corpse on a horse.

Quote

Dany had left Astapor in the hands of a council of former slaves led by a healer, a scholar, and a priest. Wise men all, she thought, and just.

Sounds good in theory but with no way to enforce their rule it can't last.

I'd argue that while it was foreseeable that some would not be happy with Jon's decisions, something so drastic as an assassination was less predictable, especially coming from Bowen Marsh, seen as a coward, and being carried out in front of a load of people. Even if Jon thought that someone was going to try and kill him, he would probably pick Aliser not Marsh, and he wouldn't think the hit would come when he in the middle of the courtyard surrounded by people.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

They thought that the former slaves would self-govern. They certainly didn't realise that the magnitude of anger and hate simmering in them, because they were never slaves (if anyone should have realised that, it would be Dany, who was sold)

Not the point, or at least not the whole point. People of westerosi towns and cities were never slaves and yet they steal, murder etc. and again Dany go “Hurr durr Imma burn da cities and murder people up north” but someone really should’ve told her “hey dum dum SLAVE CITY, to the SOUTH, DANGER BIG BIG DANGER.”

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'd argue that while it was foreseeable that some would not be happy with Jon's decisions, something so drastic as an assassination was less predictable, especially coming from Bowen Marsh, seen as a coward, and being carried out in front of a load of people. Even if Jon thought that someone was going to try and kill him, he would probably pick Aliser not Marsh, and he wouldn't think the hit would come when he in the middle of the courtyard surrounded by people.

Truly one of the worst atrocities ever committed at the Wall, it would taint the NW reputation forever and be told to little lordlings by their nans for hundreds of generations, that is if Jon survives the attack and saves humanity.

[Groo]

On 6/27/2023 at 1:35 PM, Jon Snowfyre said:

for Jon what comes to mind is his treatment of Gilly and her child. It was cruel, but was done to save Mance’s child. Gilly’s child, lacking Kingsblood would be safe from Mel’s pyre.

The only thing worse than an immoral plan is a stupid immoral plan. Jon's whole plan ultimately depends on Melisandre taking him at his word that he switched the babies. That might have worked if he told her shortly after Gilly was safely away, but he seems to be sitting on it, presumably intending to say it if Melisandre actually tries to do anything. That would be the worst time to say it. She might think he's desperately lying to save the child. She might even think her cause is so important that she's willing to risk sacrificing a non-kingly child just in case Jon is lying. I don't think Jon significantly reduced the risk of a child being sacrificed. He certainly didn't eliminate the risk. He just changed which baby was at risk.

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was kind of obvious that the Council would fall if it was not given power to uphold its rule. It was a pretty basic thing and Daenerys was naïve for leaving them, as far as we can tell, defenceless, given she had all the soldiers in Astapor killed, took the Unsullied away, there is no mention of any replacements, and Cleon has to make do with using all the under twelve slaver boys as soldiers, and then the Astapori were so desperate they sent out Cleon's corpse on a horse.

Sounds good in theory but with no way to enforce their rule it can't last.

 

 

 

I think they thought that the 'council of wise men' will establish authority (plus Dany named them and overthrowing them might mean going against Dany), but it's still a huge naivety and interesting that Barristan didn't advise against it.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'd argue that while it was foreseeable that some would not be happy with Jon's decisions, something so drastic as an assassination was less predictable, especially coming from Bowen Marsh, seen as a coward, and being carried out in front of a load of people. Even if Jon thought that someone was going to try and kill him, he would probably pick Aliser not Marsh, and he wouldn't think the hit would come when he in the middle of the courtyard surrounded by people.

 

 

 

Well, Jon has just read out a letter in which he was accused of keeping the King Beyond the Wall alive by some sorcery and sending him to save/take her sister and instead of denying it he played into it (bc he wanted to get wildlings to follow him), and he announced marching to WF with an army of wildlings - that's the sort of thing that terrible Lord Commanders do in stories, and it shouldn't have come as that big of a surprise that Watchmen would move against him.

Add in the Hardhome mission - sending out much of the NW on what many of them considered a suicide mission (especially after the first great ranging ended a disaster) under the leadership of a wildling, and now they have additional motivation to kill Jon before the mission is launched.

 

I don't know what was Jon's exact plan to attack Ramsay and it might be a good plan - in many ways it looks parallel to Dany's actions in Astapor, deciding to no longer allow injustice to occur but stand up and kill the monster(s) without a long-term plan -, but the optics of it is terrible.

I would say if you read his last 3 chapters from a POV of a 'neutral' Watchmen (I don't know if such exists or not), he really behaves as if he was already Lord of Winterfell/King of the North and Wildlings with arranging the Alys marriage, sending Mance to save Arya (the letter's accusation was different from his actual plan but this was not clarified by Jon), gathering wildlings to attack WF and defeat Ramsay Bolton (what is his plan if he succeeds? the most straightforward thing is crowning himself KoN, eve if that was probably not Jon's actual plan) and send out the NW on a very dangerous mission under his wildling buddy to save more wildlings.  

Edited June 29, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

Well, Jon has just read out a letter in which he was accused of keeping the King Beyond the Wall alive by some sorcery and sending him to save/take her sister and instead of denying it he played into it (bc he wanted to get wildlings to follow him), and he announced marching to WF with an army of wildlings - that's the sort of thing that terrible Lord Commanders do in stories, and it shouldn't have come as that big of a surprise that Watchmen would move against him.

Add in the Hardhome mission - sending out much of the NW on what many of them considered a suicide mission (especially after the first great ranging ended a disaster) under the leadership of a wildling, and now they have additional motivation to kill Jon before the mission is launched.

 

I don't know what was Jon's exact plan to attack Ramsay and it might be a good plan - in many ways it looks parallel to Dany's actions in Astapor, deciding to no longer allow injustice to occur but stand up and kill the monster(s) without a long-term plan -, but the optics of it is terrible.

I would say if you read his last 3 chapters from a POV of a 'neutral' Watchmen (I don't know if such exists or not), he really behaves as if he was already Lord of Winterfell/King of the North and Wildlings with arranging the Alys marriage, sending Mance to save Arya (the letter's accusation was different from his actual plan but this was not clarified by Jon), gathering wildlings to attack WF and defeat Ramsay Bolton (what is his plan if he succeeds? the most straightforward thing is crowning himself KoN, eve if that was probably not Jon's actual plan) and send out the NW on a very dangerous mission under his wildling buddy to save more wildlings.  

But the thing is you have historical Lord Commanders who have done things more outrageous than this and they were not assassinated - no one tried to assassinate the Night's King, there's others who did things like try to become King Beyond the Wall or make the position hereditary but no mention of someone trying to assassinate them...