The Lord of the Rings - Valonqar Connection (Trigger warning)

[Tradecraft]

Quote

"It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grimm. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak." - A ghost in Winterfell, ADWD

 

Prelude

GRRM has said he took inspiration from the Lord of the Rings. 

It is said that Lord of the Rings takes inspiration from The Rings of Nibelung. 

The Rings of the Nibelung, it is said, takes inspiration from the "Faide Royale" a Merovingian Civil War before the reign of Charlemagne

Is it possible to connect this history, the Merovingian civil war, to ASOIAF?

If so, what are the implications for the ASOIAF as a story?

 

Echoes of the Past

After the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Franks (a Germanic tribe) swept into modern day France and took power. 

The Family that ruled these Franks were the Merovingian family. 

These were different times. The Germanic tribes were not used to holding massive lands, their customs were created when they might have held only a few villages, a corner of a forest, etc. Now they held large swathes of land.  Their lands were "personal" possessions to be distributed to sons after the death of the father. 

It was the custom of these people to divide their land among their sons. They did not hold to the laws of primogeniture (the first son gets everything). 

So it was when Clothar I ruled, the lands of France were divided into the hands of four Merovingian sons. These sons cooperated with each other to extinguish their neighboring rivals. Clothar was the last brother to survive and when his brothers died, he took their lands. He would pass his lands to his sons, with terrible consequences. 

Clothar had many sons but we shall focus on two. One son, Sigebert married the rich and powerful daughter of a Visigothic King. Her name was Brunhilda, history would know her as Brunhilda of Austrasia. 

Sigebert's brother was Chilperic. Not to be outdone by his brother, Chilperic whose bride came with an enormous dowery of lands and riches, Chilperic married Brunhilda's sister Galswintha. 

Galswintha was strong like her sister. She made Chilperic banish his love interests, so as to ensure his fidelity, as a pre-condition to marriage. Chilperic agreed. It was not a happy marriage. And Chilperic conspired with his lover Fredegund to murder Galswintha, strangled in her bed by Chilperic. 

Brunhilda was enraged. The ensuing conflict (568 AD - 613 AD) would bring the royal house of Merovingian crashing down. The French call it the "Faide Royale" (Faide means "private revenge" or feud), we don't have a name for the conflict in English. 

In the end Brunhilda would outlive her mortal enemy Fredegund (died peacefully 597 AD). But Fredegund would entrust her son Clotaire to finish the duel with Brunhilda. Brunhilda, one of the most powerful and ruthless women the world has ever seen, would die a terrible death at the hands of her enemy's son. 

The Merovingian family never recovered. They had paid for this conflict, by gifting lands to their retainers (bankrupting themselves in the process). 

To tie things up with a bow... this history gives you a "little brother" and "strangling" together in such a way that it inspires LOTR (and possibly ASOIAF). 

 

The Valonqar (translated from Valyrian not as "Little Brother" but as "Strangler", confusion arises because they are interchangeable in ASOIAF)

Cersei confidently declares that it means "Little Brother". But like with many things, she is probably wrong. 

The term is more closely associated with "Strangling" or more appropriately "the Strangler". 

Cersei is wrong because, but only slightly. The two terms are interchangeable in ASOIAF. For Little Brothers strangle. And stranglers are little brothers. Very often they do so with a chain or a necklace. 

 

Younger Brothers (and what they have in common WITH EACH OTHER)

There are two stranglers who come to mind from the books; Theon and Tyrion.  

-Theon thinks about strangling, in particular he things of strangling his sister Asha (when she humiliates him when he returns to Pyke). Theon threatens to hang Beth Cassel**

Quote

pretending that it was Asha's neck he was clutching. - Theon II, ACOK

-Tyrion things about strangling his sister. He strangles Shae, a "whore" in his father's bed*. He threatens to strangle another.***

Quote

• "And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to r*** and kill my sister" Tyrion VII. ADWD

 

 

Let us re-examine these characters;

-Tyrion; second son (heir to nothing),  is "Hand to a (spoiled) Baratheon King", marries a red-haired Tully girl (she was previously betrothed), spent time in the Eyrie, Friends with the "Mountain clans"

-Theon; becomes "lord of Winterfell" (takes it from "Bran"/"Rick" who disappear), former ward to icy Lord Paramount, Rescues a Stark Maid from a Tower. 

-Sandor Clegane****; Sister disappears mysteriously, second son (heir to nothing), A Baratheon's "Dog", Traumatizing experience with Fire (there is speculation that wildfyre brought down the tower of Joy). 

Remind you of anyone?

 

 

 

If you've read my posts before, you will know that I believe GRRM is using parallels. In my opinion. he is using the current story to parallel Robert's Rebellion. Everything forwards and backwards in time is a repeat (not perfect) of Robert's Rebellion. 

I think Tyrion and Theon parallel Ned Stark. That complicates this line; 

Quote

I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me , she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned . The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

Was she trying to remove Ned's hands from her neck?

Or what about that weird GoT prologue?

Quote

Royce stood over him. His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw. The broken sword fell from nerveless fingers. Will closed his eyes to pray. Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold.

You have a Stark-like "Younger Brother" (Ned) strangling a "Will" (Lyanna, aka Wylla... quite Possibly Howland Reed... Thin gruel, I know!).

 

Final Comments

 

If you don't find the Royal Faide story relevant, I hope you find it interesting. 

I don't think Valonqar means little brother, per Cersei. I think it means "strangler". But they are closely related, possibly interchangeable. We should scrutinize little brothers (in particular "second sons") with this in mind and this includes Ned Stark. 

 

In some cases, I think you can take Tyrion and Theon POV chapters and replace them with Ned.

-You can take Theon going home after being a Ward and replace him with Ned (complete with him being attracted to the sister he does not recognize)

-Theon "steals" Winterfell from Rick(ard)/Bran(don) when they disappear... Did Eddard have a hand in their disappearance?

-Tyrion is accused of "killing" his nephew Joffrey (could parallel Ned naming Jon his bastard, thereby removing him as a political threat... thus killing Jon's original identity). 

 

 

  

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

*Nothing to see here folks. Move Along!

**Beth means "Anne"... Ly-anna (from the original "Bethany")

*** Funny enough, Tyrion "chokes" off the Blackwater Rush with a great chain! Intentional?

**** I am slightly suspicious of the story the Hounds says of the Mountain. Especially, in light of the missing Clegane sister. 

If you read my previous post about Ned Stark, you will know that I have some controversial opinions about him. 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Craving Peaches]

Tradecraft, you must be really feeling the creative urge just now. Lots of new topics! 

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

the Franks (a German tribe)

Teeny tiny nit-pick - I think it is more correct to call the Franks a Germanic Tribe. I don't know if this helps your theory in anyway, but have you been looking at some of the heroic poetry supposed to have been inspired by events from around that time in history (5th century)? I am very interested in the figure of 'Dietrich von Bern' (trying to look for parallels at the moment, closest I can find is Edric Storm, may do a full post if you're interested), but I suppose there could be a Siegfried parallel in the story given Siegfried kills the dragon Fafnir...

It's not directly related to the Valonqar theme, but this poem (Alpharts Tod - Wikipedia) reminds me of the tale of Bael the Bard a little.

Interestingly, there does not seem to be a 'Salic law' like the Franks had in Westeros. The eldest son inherits everything, the others don't seem to get much and are dependent on the generosity of the father or older brother. But if I were to speculate, maybe the First Men did have such as system, or at least some of them? That would explain the numerous petty kingdoms in the Age of Heroes...

The talk of strangulation got me thinking about the Tyroshi device Aerys used. I know you thought there was something up with those killings. Could the presence of this device suggest anything more than just cruelty?

[Corvo the Crow]

Only thing I can see GRRM was inspired from LOTR is Aragorn’s tax policy.

[Tradecraft]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

The talk of strangulation got me thinking about the Tyroshi device Aerys used. I know you thought there was something up with those killings. Could the presence of this device suggest anything more than just cruelty?

Tyr-oshi Device

Tyr-ion = Little brother strangler (Tyrion is a Ned parallel). 

When you see "Tyr" in ASOIAF, Think Ned. 

 

Edit: 

We have characters in the book rebel in order to get the people closer in line to succession killed, like with the Karstarks. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Tradecraft]

25 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tradecraft, you must be really feeling the creative urge just now. Lots of new topics! 

Teeny tiny nit-pick - I think it is more correct to call the Franks a Germanic Tribe. I don't know if this helps your theory in anyway, but have you been looking at some of the heroic poetry supposed to have been inspired by events from around that time in history (5th century)? I am very interested in the figure of 'Dietrich von Bern' (trying to look for parallels at the moment, closest I can find is Edric Storm, may do a full post if you're interested), but I suppose there could be a Siegfried parallel in the story given Siegfried kills the dragon Fafnir..

1. I fixed "Germanic"

2. I have reason to believe that "Dragon slaying" myths are related to tearing down the old Mother Goddess hierarchies (female priestesses, female property owners, female rulers or rulers derived from female driven bloodlines, etc.). The snake afterall is a female symbol, even the christian bible associates Eve with the snake. What is a dragon, but the greatest snake ever imagined (world spanning... like the Mother goddess and her followers) ?

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

When you see "Tyr" in ASOIAF, Think Ned. 

Tyr is also a Norse/Germanic God who lost his hand in chaining the wolf Fenrir...

6 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

The snake afterall is a female symbol, even the christian bible associates Eve with the snake. What is a dragon, but the greatest snake ever imagined (world spanning... like the Mother goddess and her followers) ?

Hmmm... I'm inclined to think snake and dragon may be separate symbols. Snakes lack the fire aspect of dragons. Even a winged snake is different from a dragon. I also see snakes as more 'natural' compared to dragons, given the hints that dragons were created rather than just naturally existing. Also, we have phrases such as 'bred for war' used to describe dragons, which seems at odds with the Mother goddess idea.

[Tradecraft]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyr is also a Norse/Germanic God who lost his hand in chaining the wolf Fenrir...

Hmmm... I'm inclined to think snake and dragon may be separate symbols. Snakes lack the fire aspect of dragons. Even a winged snake is different from a dragon. I also see snakes as more 'natural' compared to dragons, given the hints that dragons were created rather than just naturally existing. Also, we have phrases such as 'bred for war' used to describe dragons, which seems at odds with the Mother goddess idea.

Dragons are snake chariots. And the heyday of chariots was the Bronze age... The height of female power in my estimation. 

[Tradecraft]

26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyr is also a Norse/Germanic God who lost his hand in chaining the wolf Fenrir...

Hmmm... I'm inclined to think snake and dragon may be separate symbols. Snakes lack the fire aspect of dragons. Even a winged snake is different from a dragon. I also see snakes as more 'natural' compared to dragons, given the hints that dragons were created rather than just naturally existing. Also, we have phrases such as 'bred for war' used to describe dragons, which seems at odds with the Mother goddess idea.

@Craving Peaches What do you think of the Theon - Tyrion - Sandor  Parallel with Ned Stark?

[Evolett]

4 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The Valonqar (translated from Valyrian not as "Little Brother" but as "Strangler", confusion arises because they are interchangeable in ASOIAF)

Cersei confidently declares that it means "Little Brother". But like with many things, she is probably wrong. 

The term is more closely associated with "Strangling" or more appropriately "the Strangler". 

Cersei is wrong because, but only slightly. The two terms are interchangeable in ASOIAF. For Little Brothers strangle. And stranglers are little brothers. Very often they do so with a chain or a necklace. 

Valonqar as "Strangler" is interesting. According to Cersei, Septa Saranella translated the meaning of the High Valyrian word  as "little brother" for her. Where did the Septa learn High Valyrian? Did she have Valyrian roots? Was she a governess to Cersei? Is the Valyrian language part of the curriculum Septas are normally exposed to?  It's not a language spoken or understood by many educated Westerosi and even Tyrion who is an avid reader more educated than most, has only very imperfect Valyrian at his command. So questioning the true meaning of the word is worth looking at. 

Like Tyrion, Jamie is also associated with strangling by means of a necklace, in this case Sybell Spicer, the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog from whom the prophecy came:

Quote

 Jaime would happily have strangled the woman with her seashell necklace.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Evolett

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

@Craving Peaches What do you think of the Theon - Tyrion - Sandor  Parallel with Ned Stark?

I think there is a parallel but Ned to me stands out a bit - unlike Theon and Tyrion, Ned did not have to 'make his own way' as his brother was already dead, as was his father. Compare to Tyrion and Theon, Ned is not as influenced by his father or brother. But we see Ned talks about giving Jon (and Bran?) their own holdfasts - unlike Theon and Tyrion, who have to 'take' their own from others.

[Tradecraft]

14 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Valonqar as "Strangler" is interesting. According to Cersei, Septa Saranella translated the meaning of the High Valyrian word  as "little brother" for her. Where did the Septa learn High Valyrian? Did she have Valyrian roots? Was she a governess to Cersei? Is the Valyrian language part of the curriculum Septas are normally exposed to?  It's not a language spoken or understood by many educated Westerosi and even Tyrion who is an avid reader more educated than most, has only very imperfect Valyrian at his command. So questioning the true meaning of the word is worth looking at. 

Like Tyrion, Jamie is also associated with strangling by means of a necklace, in this case Sybell Spicer, the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog from whom the prophecy came:

 

Little brothers Strangle "Sweet sisters!" (Lyanna was a B I T C H... )

[Tradecraft]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think there is a parallel but Ned to me stands out a bit - unlike Theon and Tyrion, Ned did not have to 'make his own way' as his brother was already dead, as was his father. Compare to Tyrion and Theon, Ned is not as influenced by his father or brother. But we see Ned talks about giving Jon (and Bran?) their own holdfasts - unlike Theon and Tyrion, who have to 'take' their own from others.

Ned had to make his way BEFORE Brandon and Rickard SUDDENLY fell off the map. 

And we know that people (Karstarks no less) will rebel to get people placed ahead of them in the line of succession killed. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Ned had to make his way BEFORE Brandon and Rickard SUDDENLY fell off the map. 

True.

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Tyr-oshi Device

Tyr-ion = Little brother strangler (Tyrion is a Ned parallel). 

When you see "Tyr" in ASOIAF, Think Ned. 

So what's the connection to Tyrek Lannister?

Or the Tyrell family?

[Nevets]

Where do you get valonqar meaning strangler because I can't find it anywhere.

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Where do you get valonqar meaning strangler because I can't find it anywhere.

https://wiki.languageinvention.com/index.php?title=High_Valyrian_Dictionary

For the record, at least I can't find any sign that David J. Peterson came up with a word for strangle, much less strangler.

As for valonqar itself:

Quote

• valonqar /vaˈloɴqar/

n. 1aq. younger brother; younger male cousin by father's brother or mother's sister.

 

[Tradecraft]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Where do you get valonqar meaning strangler because I can't find it anywhere.

It's a mistranslation. But they are interchangeable. 

[SaffronLady]

16 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

It's a mistranslation. But they are interchangeable. 

So essentially you are brushing aside solid knowledge to present your theory as ... well, presentable.

[Tradecraft]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

So essentially you are brushing aside solid knowledge to present your theory as ... well, presentable.

Ned Stark thought he had Littlefinger's support in the throne room.

Robert thought Joffrey was his son.

Stannis' men didn't think the new towers on the Blackwater bay were a big deal. 

Viserys thought Drogo would give him a real crown. 

Sansa thought she was going to marry Joffrey and make beautiful babies with him. 

 

 

People get it wrong in ASOIAF all the time. 

Sorry to break that news to you.

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Tradecraft said:

Ned Stark thought he had Littlefinger's support in the throne room.

Robert thought Joffrey was his son.

Stannis' men didn't think the new towers on the Blackwater bay were a big deal. 

Viserys thought Drogo would give him a real crown. 

Sansa thought she was going to marry Joffrey and make beautiful babies with him.

And the above have no relation like, at all, to the fact of a mistranslated fictional language being a plot point is what you are pushing forth here.

2 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

People get it wrong in ASOIAF all the time. 

Sorry to break that news to you.

I know. I am seeing one right now.

I need at least one example of mistranslated in-world languages AS A PLOT POINT before I could suspend disbelief for this particular theory.