Suppose Lyanna had survived?

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

She had to die for the story to work. Much like Ned's death was required.

Not sure if this is serious, but it's certainly true.  There is no way the current story exists if Lyanna survives.  It changes too much.  

For one thing, hiding Jon's parentage becomes effectively impossible.  Another is that there is the strong possibility of a Robert/Lyanna marriage.  That would depend on Rhaegar and Lyanna's motives, and whether Robert was still interested.  Heck, you could do a book or two about all the intrigue surrounding that 

I'm skeptical of the elopement argument.  She is running off with a married man, helping him cheat on his wife, because she doesn't want to marry a man who will cheat on her.  Huh?  I get mental whiplash thinking about it.  Even prophecy makes more sense to me than that.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

6 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I'm skeptical of the elopement argument.  She is running off with a married man, helping him cheat on his wife, because she doesn't want to marry a man who will cheat on her.  Huh?  I get mental whiplash thinking about it.  Even prophecy makes more sense to me than that.

Just when I thought I couldn't hate that scenario even more... 

So she is not only an utterly selfish imbecile, she's also a massive hypocrite. 

I swear, if the elopement thing is true, then I daresay that Rhaegar and Lyanna are the worst people in the entire series. 

[frenin]

11 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Lyanna probably has more blame than I give her. But I don’t think a bunch of men who had thousands at their command is not given their fair share of blame in starting a civil war.

Lyanna's name and position carry the burden of some responsibilities, you ccan't hardly live like that without some consequences, no one can have it all and in that case Lyanna would very much be partly at fault for the war.

[Kal-L]

12 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Maybe I’m in the minority or just a lone wolf in my opinion but Lyanna owned no one anything. 

That's an interesting way to see things, probably the way Lyanna herself conceived the world. "I enjoy the privilege of being Lord Stark daughter but I don't owe anything to that said House or anybody related to it."

Luckily for her, her dear brother Ned had a good heart and in spite it all was ready to look over the flaws (selfishness here) of those he loved (his pack) - even though they didn't deserve such loyalty from his part. A harder man would have taken her stance to the heart and left her and her baby to fend for themselves with whoever was present with them at the ToJ (Wylla ?). No need to specify that the gate of Winterfell would be forever closed to them.

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-robert earned it as he was the only one young enough  and who wanted it (ned refused ) and had a distant  family Link to the prev regime. 

Quote.

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

yes they were very shaky even with tywin and ned ,jon and hoster etc.  Lets review shall we  ........There were still 2 genuine targs out there  on dragonstone whos claim hadnt yet become a joke (robert feared them even decades later) a huge targ fleet on dragonstone unsmashed yet by a freak storm! The reachs sheer power  as targ loyalists (raised up by the silver haired mob) that jon arryn would even suggest stannis marry a florent as a link and veiled warning to the tyrells!! Theres dorne who understandably are outraged by what happened their kin  at KL .....jon arryn had to personaly go to doran to calm him down as hed raised his spears ,shit we know soon after hed bethrothe his daughter to viserys as a open threat to robert!! The calm meek do nothing image doran cultivated to contrast with the vipers wild image  would come years later! Theres still targ loyalists in the crownlands, dragonstone islands and the ironborn have just had a kingsmoot with a new unstable sounding leader! 

I find no Stark loyalist in your tirade, is it normal ?

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-well lets see ned has his own forces , the reach, dorne, much of the crownlands, dragonstones+ surrounding  islands forces  and as yet non stormwrecked fleet !!!  Jon arryn and hoster at best wont be attacking ned (hoster is marriage bound to defend ned) and overall  if ned chooses  to just bring his family north and protect them theres  literaly nothing robert can do about it! bottom line unless he finds and tames dragons moat catlin means he can tell robert to go f himself!  thats the other issue facing the iron throne in an age without dragons theres like 3 almost  impossible to directly  assault regions ! (north,vale and dorne).

That's what I thought, your fanfiction include everyone and its mother begging to die for some baby bastard link to to the North. The joke was funny.

Doran Martell didn't even want to send swords to the Targaryens after Rhaegar's treatement of his Princess Elia and had to be threaten by Aerys. Now he will send people dying for the child Rhaegar's mistress ? (Desperate aren't we)

Crownlands ? They are crushed, defeated and submitted to their new king.

What of Dragonstone ? The fleet was destroyed and the Island was quickly taken by Stannis. What is that big role you are fantasizing about for that Island and its defeated people ?

Jon is loyal to his King he loves like a son, if Ned acts like an irrational warlord, Jon will have no choice but to end his rule as soon as possible, to his (everyone) great dismay. Luckily for him, GRRM got a brain and doesn't have character acting irrationally left and right to suit some stupid whim; so there is no universe where Jon would be forced to take arms against the dutiful Ned Stark.

The Reach isn't a monolithic group. Aside of the fact they lost the war while having sent men to support Rhaegar at the Trident, they bowed and bent the knees to Robert, a warring powerful king. They won't bet on baby bastard, descendant of disinherited line just like they didn't bet on full blooded Targaryen in (Viserys).

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-whos talking about decalring  war on his new king ? thats on robert to escalate. Ned simply wont hide his sister + new nephew nor hand them over for a possible execution or a now  unwanted robert lyanna marriage.

-ned isnt gonna declare war on robert but if robert declares war on him its probably not gonna go very well unless he can find some dragon eggs. 

Robert has no reason to declare war to Ned. You don't go to war over a baby, Robert doesn't need Jon Arryn to tell him so. The only difference is that Jon will never be safe and thus without Robert having to ask anything (he wouldn't). But that would be on Lyanna since we know how Ned tackled Jon's lineage in canon.

 

[astarkchoice]

26 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

-That's what I thought, your fanfiction include everyone and its mother begging to die for some baby bastard link to to the North. The joke was funny.

-Doran Martell didn't even want to send swords to the Targaryens after Rhaegar's treatement of his Princess Elia and had to be threaten by Aerys. Now he will send people dying for the child Rhaegar's mistress ? (Desperate aren't we)

Crownlands ? They are crushed, defeated and submitted to their new king.

What of Dragonstone ? The fleet was destroyed and the Island was quickly taken by Stannis. What is that big role you are fantasizing about for that Island and its defeated people ?

-Jon is loyal to his King he loves like a son, if Ned acts like an irrational warlord, Jon will have no choice but to end his rule as soon as possible, to his (everyone) great dismay. Luckily for him, GRRM got a brain and doesn't have character acting irrationally left and right to suit some stupid whim; so there is no universe where Jon would be forced to take arms against the dutiful Ned Stark.

-The Reach isn't a monolithic group. Aside of the fact they lost the war while having sent men to support Rhaegar at the Trident, they bowed and bent the knees to Robert, a warring powerful king. They won't bet on baby bastard, descendant of disinherited line just like they didn't bet on full blooded Targaryen in (Viserys).

-Robert has no reason to declare war to Ned. You don't go to war over a baby, Robert doesn't need Jon Arryn to tell him so. The only difference is that Jon will never be safe and thus without Robert having to ask anything (he wouldn't). But that would be on Lyanna since we know how Ned tackled Jon's lineage in canon.

 

-and in your fanfiction robert had transformed into an unstoppable killing machine and somehow moat catlin doesnt exist anymore.

-then his sister and neice and nephew were raped and butchered and jon arryn had to go and calm him down, then he bethrothed his daughter to viserys to potentialy challenge robert and at books start  we see he was  reaching out to dany + trying to kill tywin....so yeah doran isnt exactly a stable robert ally.

-the crownlands lost one battle man they arent destroyed as a military force

The fleet wont be destroyed until next year in the period we are discussing man and as stannis points oit theres aboit 3-4 k of troops that back then are targ loyalists.

-jon also raised ned and taught both men to be honourable, he isnt backing one son over the other esp to potentialy murder a kid. And again the oart you arent grasping is he doesnt have to..theres 0 dragons thus the vale is almost impregnable

-the pro targ  tyrells have worried robert every day of his reign hence marrying stannis to the florents...their actions in the book show he was right to worry they are dangerously ambitious.

-jon was one thing, lyanna and jon/aegon together is another

 

[Kal-L]

34 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-and in your fanfiction robert had transformed into an unstoppable killing machine and somehow moat catlin doesnt exist anymore.

That's not a fanfiction, that's the story of Robert's rebellion (asoiaf from George Martin), a man who won 3 battles in a day. A wounded man who slew several knights in the same battle and almost slew the hand of the King in spite of the latter having been picked for his martial skills. A general so charismatic that he literally converted his enemies in ally after defeating them.

That's all in GRRM book and his interview, the fact that you dislike it doesn't matter to me to be honest.

39 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-then his sister and neice and nephew were raped and butchered and jon arryn had to go and calm him down, then he bethrothed his daughter to viserys to potentialy challenge robert and at books start  we see he was  reaching out to dany + trying to kill tywin....so yeah doran isnt exactly a stable robert ally.

What are you talking, who is "his", you're making no sense. Take your time when your typing you answer and make sure you're clear for your interlocutor, I'm not supposed to have to decipher your text.

40 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-the crownlands lost one battle man they arent destroyed as a military force

They are, been crushed and subdued by Tywin Lannister who held the city and the rebels came. Those who survived swore fealy and/or join the wall. The war ended, a concept you seem to have a hard time to grasp.

42 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-jon also raised ned and taught both men to be honourable, he isnt backing one son over the other esp to potentialy murder a kid. And again the oart you arent grasping is he doesnt have to..theres 0 dragons thus the vale is almost impregnable

He is backing the King he swore fealty over the traitor that want to put his nephew on the throne as soon as he learned he could apparently be the uncle of a King. In fact Jon was the one to rationalize the murder of Elia and her children. Luckily he won't have to, the North won't follow an unreliable backstabber who doesnt hold to his words -why would they anyway.

45 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

-the pro targ  tyrells have worried robert every day of his reign hence marrying stannis to the florents...their actions in the book show he was right to worry they are dangerously ambitious.

They haven't, he dealt with them as he should have by marrying Stannis to the Florent and if they had worried him so much he could have promised Renly to another important House.

[astarkchoice]

10 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

-That's not a fanfiction, that's the story of Robert's rebellion (asoiaf from George Martin), a man who won 3 battles in a day. A wounded man who slew several knights in the same battle and almost slew the hand of the King in spite of the latter having been picked for his martial skills. A general so charismatic that he literally converted his enemies in ally after defeating them.

That's all in GRRM book and his interview, the fact that you dislike it doesn't matter to me to be honest.

-What are you talking, who is "his", you're making no sense. Take your time when your typing you answer and make sure you're clear for your interlocutor, I'm not supposed to have to decipher your text.

-They are, been crushed and subdued by Tywin Lannister who held the city and the rebels came. Those who survived swore fealy and/or join the wall. The war ended, a concept you seem to have a hard time to grasp.

-He is backing the King he swore fealty over the traitor that want to put his nephew on the throne as soon as he learned he could apparently be the uncle of a King. In fact Jon was the one to rationalize the murder of Elia and her children. Luckily he won't have to, the North won't follow an unreliable backstabber who doesnt hold to his words -why would they anyway.

-They haven't, he dealt with them as he should have by marrying Stannis to the Florent and if they had worried him so much he could have promised Renly to another important House.

-right so you grasp that ned doesnt have to face him one on one? Even joffery grasps the simple concept that theres no national army at the kings command. Once ned goes part moat catlin thats it...robert cant do shit to him.

-doran 

-right but a new one could bubble up at any moment as robert well knew. Viserys was considered a threat for years for good reason

-jon isnt backing a king asking him to fight his other son (and again the vales defences mean he doesnt have to)  The north? They fucking love ned and the fact the southerners killed his brother and father and now demanding their lords sister and nephew..they arent gonna like it and thanks to moat catlin they dont have to care what some southern king demands.

-they were still a threat but lesser over time, as viserys became more of a joke, as the reach and dornes rivalry reheated (willas injury) but it never went fullt away.

[Kal-L]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

-doran 

Write an intelligible sentence and make yourself understood.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

-right but a new one could bubble up at any moment as robert well knew. Viserys was considered a threat for years for good reason

What are you answering to ? The Crownland lost they were crushed and spared, there is nothing there.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

jon isnt backing a king asking him to fight his other son (and again the vales defences mean he doesnt have to)  The north? They fucking love ned and the fact the southerners killed his brother and father and now demanding their lords sister and nephew..they arent gonna like it and thanks to moat catlin they dont have to care what some southern king demands.

Love Ned ? What do you think this is. If the man declare war to their king out greediness, they will stop his madness. Period.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

-right so you grasp that ned doesnt have to face him one on one? Even joffery grasps the simple concept that theres no national army at the kings command. Once ned goes part moat catlin thats it...robert cant do shit to him.

I don't see what you're talking about, don't quote me if you can't read. By the way lol at Moat Cailin being a magical path - and that's ignoring the fact that Ned won't gain any favors from anyone or put Jon on any throne by hiding in the North.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Kal-L

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, Kal-L said:

That's an interesting way to see things, probably the way Lyanna herself conceived the world. "I enjoy the privilege of being Lord Stark daughter but I don't owe anything to that said House or anybody related to it."

Luckily for her, her dear brother Ned had a good heart and in spite it all was ready to look over the flaws (selfishness here) of those he loved (his pack) - even though they didn't deserve such loyalty from his part. A harder man would have taken her stance to the heart and left her and her baby to fend for themselves with whoever was present with them at the ToJ (Wylla ?). No need to specify that the gate of Winterfell would be forever closed to them.

 

Why wouldn’t Lyanna conceive the world that way. She was a 14 yr old child sold from her father to Robert Baratheon. Her feelings, thoughts, and desires didn’t matter so why should anyone else’s. 
 

 

[astarkchoice]

58 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

-Write an intelligible sentence and make yourself understood.

-What are you answering to ? The Crownland lost they were crushed and spared, there is nothing there.

-Love Ned ? What do you think this is. If the man declare war to their king out greediness, they will stop his madness. Period.

-i don't see what you're talking about, don't quote me if you can't read. By the way lol at Moat Cailin being a magical path - and that's ignoring the fact that Ned won't gain any favors from anyone or put Jon on any throne by hiding in the North.

-we were talking about doran and the  you suddenly didnt know who were talking about...just try scrolling back once in a while 

-i missed the battle where every military ages man in the crownlands was killed or crippled 

-???? What simpleton will see 'greed'  if he declares hes protecting his sister  from a former friend  who now is declaring he hand them over. The same southerners who  killed his father and brother. The fact jon arryn refused to hand over ned and robert and now hes demanding the same  wont be lost on them either

-his vassals will gladly humble whatever force chooses to come north esp to murder a child and force an unwanted marriage on their former lords daughter. Nor will dorne sit back and let their blood relative be killed, the tyrells must back targs by tgeir very nature and of course at this stage theses no way to know the dragonstone fleet will diseapear ina fluke storm!!!!

[Kal-L]

14 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-we were talking about doran and the  you suddenly didnt know who were talking about...just try scrolling back once in a while 

I don't, I'm making as much effort to understand you as you're making to make yourself understood.

14 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-i missed the battle where every military ages man in the crownlands was killed or crippled 

You missed common sense and understanding of the universe you're reading.

14 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-???? What simpleton will see 'greed'  if he declares hes protecting his sister  from a former friend  who now is declaring he hand them over. The same southerners who  killed his father and brother. The fact jon arryn refused to hand over ned and robert and now hes demanding the same  wont be lost on them either

Robert isn't, that's simple. The only way a war could take place would be for Ned to try to usurp the king he swore fealty few weeks ago, because he learned he could be the uncle of a king. There is no other possible scenario.

14 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

-his vassals will gladly humble whatever force chooses to come north esp to murder a child and force an unwanted marriage on their former lords daughter. Nor will dorne sit back and let their blood relative be killed, the tyrells must back targs by tgeir very nature and of course at this stage theses no way to know the dragonstone fleet will diseapear ina fluke storm!!!!

Nothing to add anymore about the Tyrell, I already said it all and you were unable to answer.

Dorne was unwilling to move for the Targaryen when Elia was alive and had to be threaten into sending men. They didn't move when Balon Greyjoy rebelled, they again didn't move during the war of the 5 kings when they could have joined any side opposed to the Lannister like the North for example (oh wait ?). In fact they could have even claimed to break any ties with the 7K since it's was the Targaryen which united them through wedding; but they didn't. Somehow in your convoluted mind, Doran rises up and decides to fight for the woman he considered responsible for his sister's shame; the same woman who is at the origin of a chain of events that led to Elia's shame and gruesome death as well as her kids. The term "stupid" isn't enough to describe that plot.

Anyway while it's particularly delightful to see how desperate you are to find new allies to Ned Stark, your inability to back any of your fanfic scenario with rational reasoning put an end to that conversation. You were already barely making sense but your move to have Doran sending his people dying for Rhaegar's mistress - he (Doran) took offense at - was the final nail in the coffin.

Good bye.

[Kal-L]

15 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Why wouldn’t Lyanna conceive the world that way. She was a 14 yr old child sold from her father to Robert Baratheon. Her feelings, thoughts, and desires didn’t matter so why should anyone else’s. 

I don't get the point of your post. The post you quoted goes along with your suggestion on her way of thinking. What kind of answer are you expecting from me exactly ?

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

 

-You missed common sense and understanding of the universe you're reading.

-Robert isn't, that's simple. The only way a war could take place would be for Ned to try to usurp the king he swore fealty few weeks ago, because he learned he could be the uncle of a king. There is no other possible scenario.

-Nothing to add anymore about the Tyrell, I already said it all and you were unable to answer.

-Dorne was unwilling to move for the Targaryen when Elia was alive and had to be threaten into sending men. They didn't move when Balon Greyjoy rebelled, they again didn't move during the war of the 5 kings when they could have joined any side opposed to the Lannister like the North for example (oh wait ?). In fact they could have even claimed to break any ties with the 7K since it's was the Targaryen which united them through wedding; but they didn't. Somehow in your convoluted mind, Doran rises up and decides to fight for the woman he considered responsible for his sister's shame; the same woman who is at the origin of a chain of events that led to Elia's shame and gruesome death as well as her kids. The term "stupid" isn't enough to describe that plot.

Anyway while it's particularly delightful to see how desperate you are to find new allies to Ned Stark, your inability to back any of your fanfic scenario with rational reasoning put an end to that conversation. You were already barely making sense but your move to have Doran sending his people dying for Rhaegar's mistress - he (Doran) took offense at - was the final nail in the coffin.

Good bye.

-says the person who feels one loss equals total military collapse 

-thats ok then if robert doesnt demand lyanna and baby jon then ned and robert are cool. If he demands neds sister unwillingly marry him and/or neds nephew is killed then differenr kettle of fish. 

-the pro targ tyrells whom the reach rose for and would happily do so again hence why robert+ jon arryn needed stannis to marry a florent.

-but he did want to rise once ellie and her kids were murdered , we are literaly  told this and jon arryn had to calm him down for declaring war...thats clearly an ally if ned needed one

Later he bethrothes his own daughter to viserys in bravos..again this is clearly not someone on board with the baratheon/lannister regime. 

Also ??? Huh We know he sat out the wot5k as he and the viper had their own more subtle plan...we literaly  read it in the books!!!

Dude this was a thread on a  forum discussing  a what if ...its ALL fanfic! Based on the actual situation in westeros at the time. You failnto grasp timelines or basic realities or character traits  we are told time and time in the book.  Its vety simple to.follow

Ned (good guy) of he found his sister and nephew would wanna protect them. Should robert fly off in a rage and demand ned(good guy)  hand them over ned can and would tell him to go f himself. We know this again as ned(good guy) and more importantly we are told no army  from the south can march north through moat catlin, so roberts demands mean nowt.

This is a basic political and military reality of the books world we know of, a kingdom forged together with dragons is now held with alliances that can shift and 3 of the 7 kingdoms are virtualy impregnable  thus are part of the 7 kingdoms as long as they choose to be...the north being one.

As for the rest  its the basic skill of   following  timeline ! Kl has fallen , dorne we know will shortly need to be  talked out of war due to the outrage it suffered at kl, the tyrells ARE  targ loyalists as being upjumped by the targs they are sorta obliged to be and the reach follows them...they are still dangerous to roberts regime as anyone with half a brain can tell hence the later florent marriage . The royal fleet is still large and sitting off dragonstone with 3 targs (soon to be 2 next year and the fleet smashed in a fluke)

Ned is married to hoster tully and was raised by jon arryn whos married to neds sister in law...in other words these 2 regions at best will be neutral if robert remains uncharacteristicly unreasonable and cruel towards neds nephew and sister..which he wont be anyway