Stannis is a Fool (At least to Start Out)

[KingAerys_II]

Stannis is not the most cunning commander, he sent people in Essos to hire thousands of sells words, he already has serious difficulties to feed the army trapped in the crofters villages, it has more sense to hire a Faceless Man to kill Roose Bolton, if Roose dies, Ramsay loses the support of Freys and Dustins. The influence of Melisandre makes him do mistakes, the priestess serves her God, not him

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

he already has serious difficulties to feed the army trapped in the crofters villages

I can't see how he won't starve, no food outside Winterfell but food in Winterfell is also running low, with the weather and distances involved I doubt food can be sent from elsewhere on time; on the other hand Stannis needs to live long enough to sacrifice his remaining relative so?

[frenin]

@James Steller

 

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That isn’t a genius idea at all. Robert Arryn is a weak child who will be no help to Stannis in the short term (and arguably not in the long term either). Plus we already saw that his attempt to foster Robert was undermined at every level.

Weak child or not, he's Lord Arryn and whoever controls him controls the Vale, it was worth more than a shot, which even Stannis agreed till Selyse accused him of begging.

 

 

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We know that Stannis was bullied and overshadowed by Robert

I'm sorry but we do not know that.

 

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Whether Stannis reached out to Renly or not is impossible to prove either way. 

Renly is 14yo younger, i very much doubt he was rejecting his older brother when he was 7.

 

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but he has no qualms  with Shireen as his heir.

You mean choice?

It's not like there is any inmediate family to choose, he has murdered or abandoned to their fates those who could be his heir.

 

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He even order Justin Massey to put Shireen on the throne if he dies.

As a extension of him, which is pretty much what she's useful to him, that and sacrifices ofc.

 

@csuszka1948

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His willingness to starve the smallfolk of King's Landing doesn't exactly point to that.

How so? It's like saying that his willingness to march to war and kill smallfolk soldiers doesn't point to that.

 

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Catelyn and his more experienced advisors all criticize his battle plans and I think it's meant to show that he doesn't have military prowess but is unwilling to listen. 

 

1. Only Cat does, and Cat simply says that he is like Robert, then again  Cat's criticism, barrinng the fact that she is no general but i can very much agree this was Martin's own dig at Renly, was profoundly stupid, how the hell is Renly going to starve to death in his own lands? Tywin wasn't starving in the Riverlands... what kind of take is that?
2. His advisors all have different opinions and he listens to them and them decides, Rowan believed (correctly) that they should ignore Storm's End because it was of no real danger really, Tarly advises against it and states they should smash Stannis now, Tarly suggests that the terrain and the first charge is sus etc etc etc.

 

 

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1. He was written as someone not very sympathetic, but I also think he is very relatable to many readers.

He is the person who has always worked hard and played by the rules, but (because he is socially awkward, because he had bad luck etc.) he was never rewarded and feels that the world is unfair to him; and now, that the rules would favor him, suddenly nobody cares about them, so he decides that he will get what he deserves even if it means discarding some of the rules (Melisandre). Many people feel the world was unfair to them and sympathize with his desire to get his 'rightful Throne'.

Completely agree,  i also feel that is why Renly is so greatly reviled among the fandom, if most readers can identify themselves with Stannis, then they almost certainly will have all suffered a "Renly, who was adored and got everything easily without deserving it".

Ofc most readers, much like Stannis, are lacking some introspection but...

Stannis was greatly rewarded, he simply was not rewarded in the ways he'd wish.

[KingAerys_II]

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I can't see how he won't starve, no food outside Winterfell but food in Winterfell is also running low, with the weather and distances involved I doubt food can be sent from elsewhere on time; on the other hand Stannis needs to live long enough to sacrifice his remaining relative so?

Sellswords companies are all busy in the siege of Meeren, they switch sides easily, then Asha describes the cold as something that make men mad, so it is a desperate situation, I think the campaign in the North is something totally wrong, Riverlands were an easier target, he could have taken the Harrenhal and raise the banners of the Riverlands Houses, he chose the North that is the cold hell version of Dorne, I think the influence of Melisandre will kill him

Edited August 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Still seems like a reach. There are others who wouldn't have gone hunting that day as well.

But who else was likely to have affairs with the queen in Winterfell, which to southrons was equivalent to the middle of nowhere? I mean, it would be a lot less dramatic if Jaime was not Joffery's father, but some random attendant of Cersei's who happened to accompany the queen to Winterfell.

Reflecting on this, great wisdom from the east: to make sure royal women don't have bastards, surround them with eunuchs.

[KingAerys_II]

"great wisdom from the east,... surround them with eunuchs" it's one of the most disturbing things I have ever read

Edited August 3, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

First, I like your explanations. I like how you called out double standards, too. However, I do have one bone to pick. This one : "Many people feel the world was unfair to them and sympathize with his desire to get his 'rightful Throne'."

The bone I am picking is not with this being true, it absolutely is. The problem is...Stannis is an EXTREMELY privileged lord. Stannis acts like he deserves everything JUST because of his birth. This is in stark contrast to other lords and ladies, who often actually try to make the people love them (or the opposite, like the Lannisters who mostly rule through fear). And yes, I think this is accurate, this is what a lot of fans relate to, and it is just as problematic in real life. See I see a lot of Stannis fans being...well just that, white straight men who have white privilege, male privilege, straight privilege, and a lot of them are also middle class. You are right that his fans do relate to him, and unironically they chose the perfect character to relate to. An extremely privileged man who acts like a baby and plays the victim constantly despite often being the architect of his own circumstances. Much like an incel who blames women for why they are single while also being a complete asshole to all women, not grooming themselves at all, not making any effort to be interesting, and in a lot of cases not even really trying to understand/talk to women in anyway other than in pursuit of sex, Stannis is a perfect hero for them. 

We get introduced to Stannis as he tells us how he owes Lord Eddard nothing. Lord Eddard, who quite literally died trying to give Stannis the crown. That Lord Eddard. Before you say Stannis doesn't know this,.....unless Stannis has no informants whatsoever, he should probably know it. It's not like Eddard did his actions in a quiet room, he did it in front of 100s of guards. He shows resentment to Lord Eddard, who we know actually respected Stannis, could have been an ally to Stannis. Stannis has created a fantasy where he is a victim in this relationship, when in fact, he could have had an ally and a supporter. 

All of this by the way, is not directed at you. I don't think (based on our interactions) that you are one of these fans. You seem level headed and you don't say many of the dog-whistle like words that the people I am talking about use. Not every person who likes Stannis is of the kind I am talking about, but I do think it is an important block of his fan-base, and I do think they relate to him...because they think they deserve things they haven't earned. They relate TO the concept they are owed something despite doing nothing to deserve it. THEY WANT SOCIETY TO BE UNFAIR, with themselves getting privileges others do not. If they wanted to relate to a character actually treated unfairly, they would choose Tyrion (who is treated unfairly based on abelism) or Daenerys (treated unfairly as a woman), or Jon Snow (treated unfairly as a bastard). There are plenty of characters actually denied privileges others have in this society. Stannis isn't one of them. Stannis is handed a lordship for existing. Stannis is given a seat on the council for existing. In fact, Robert doesn't even like him and he still gives him a seat on the council, because he is his brother. Eddard supports Stannis simply again because he is next in line, not because of anything Stannis actually did. What is that quote? Got it : “When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." This sums up Stannis and a portion of his fanbase perfectly. 

Hmm but here the thing. And its a biggy

We as readers KNOW  hes entitled to the throne. We know for a fact the kids aint roberts! Stannis and jon arryn have kust seen black haired robert lookalikes popping out of every other women not hidden from roberts sight and both have probably read the infamous  book on the subject

Now there is 'entitlement ' here but its built into the setting, dany feels shes entitled to the throne, tyrion to casterly rock etc.  Its a feudal setting after all.

Stannis is bitter but damn you cant argue he hasnt had to eat a lot of  shit and smile about it, he sided with robert and  endured a brutal siege for his brother who virtualy sucked ned off for less!  stannis didnt get thanked but told to start building a fleet for a naval battle and siege off dragonstone (storm wrecks targ fleet) and ploughs through the dangerous fleet smashing storms to win dragomstone and instead of thanks gets unfairly blamed for letting dany+viserys escape!!! Catch them yourself if its soo easy  you fat fuck  he should have said

He is given the less prestigious dragonstone instead of stormsend to rule the stormlands for the baratheon cause  as robert needs him on dragonstone ok, he again follows his brother to war without question and is pivotal to the greyjoy war. Hes even forced to as we would say jump on a grenade for his brother ag jon afryns advice....to keep the tryells in line stannis must marry a cold, hairy lipped ugly wife AND robert humiliates  him on their wedding too!!! 

The man turns up for service every day with the council while his big brother doesnt bother as is his right.

Now dont get me wrongn around the w0t5k time both  he and renly are pricks who  clealrly should have mesaged each other! But you can see why stannis would feel bitter that after all his hard thankless duty to his house and its leader (robert) he feels utterly shat on when renly refuses to do the same for him. Now renly.isnt a mind reader or has  greensight so thats partly on stannis for not getting or keeping in touch but you can see why old stan the man is agrieved. 

 

[SaffronLady]

44 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

"great wisdom from the east,... surround them with eunuchs" it's one of the most brutal thing I have ever read

Yes yes of course, if you could humanely prevent the birth of bastards you could always post it.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Stannis is not the most cunning commander, he sent people in Essos to hire thousands of sells words, he already has serious difficulties to feed the army trapped in the crofters villages, it has more sense to hire a Faceless Man to kill Roose Bolton, if Roose dies, Ramsay loses the support of Freys and Dustins. The influence of Melisandre makes him do mistakes, the priestess serves her God, not him

Nope he hasntt time 

The sellswords he told massey to gather no less than 20k then come across  (white harbour probably) they are to assist his efforts to retake the throne should he win the upcomming battle or  his men were ordered to fight on without him for shireen....either way he doesblnt expect the mercs to arrive before hes resolved the battle of winterfell! 

The faceless man idea is covered in book one though their cost is massive ad always relative to the value of the  target ! and its not always gold they seek. Nor do they kill on a set timescale either.

[frenin]

45 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

he sided with robert and  endured a brutal siege for his brother who virtualy sucked ned off for less!

What thanks does Stannis give to his followers when they are in the North freezing to death for him? No one, it's their duty. Quite literally.

Stannis expects from Robert what he's unable to give to others, Robert acts towards Stannis the exact same way Stannis acts towards his vassals.

And yet neither Stannis nor his fans seem to grasp the irony, it's always Robert's fault.

 

48 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Hes even forced to as we would say jump on a grenade for his brother ag jon afryns advice..

What you're saying is that Stannis is raised from a landless knight to a Great Lord in his own right, chief advisor of the King and Admiral?

Wow, he's been mistreated lol.

 

[astarkchoice]

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

-What thanks does Stannis give to his followers when they are in the North freezing to death for him? No one, it's their duty. Quite literally.

Stannis expects from Robert what he's unable to give to others, Robert acts towards Stannis the exact same way Stannis acts towards his vassals.

And yet neither Stannis nor his fans seem to grasp the irony, it's always Robert's fault.

 

-What you're saying is that Stannis is raised from a landless knight to a Great Lord in his own right, chief advisor of the King and Admiral?

Wow, he's been mistreated lol.

 

-they arent his family nor has he rebuked them for shit they cant help as stannis did for him and the escaped targ kids, nor has he picked one group and told them they are awesome and the others suck

And yes renly and stannis have their faults but both are right in that robert was a crap king and became a dangerously  lazy leader for the baratheon cause. Stannis by contrast we see rewards good service and honest council  regardless of station (davos) and renly is kind to bannermen and non noble alike

- hes arranged married to an ugly cold hairy lipped dragon, his only child struck down with grayscale , his brother acends the throne and must assign his kin roles to keep the baratheon powerbase intact....stannis despite serving longer and harder and being elder gets the shitty end of the stick vs renly. 

 

No one can honestly read the description of seleyse and think stannis hasnt took a horrible task from his brother king for the family good there.

 

Also no onw can deny..the man is hilarious

Edited August 3, 2023 by astarkchoice

[csuszka1948]

58 minutes ago, frenin said:

What you're saying is that Stannis is raised from a landless knight to a Great Lord in his own right, chief advisor of the King and Admiral?

Wow, he's been mistreated lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I think astarkchoice's comment demonstrates exactly what I am talking about, describes perfectly the reasons why ordinary people find Stannis relatable: because the 'slights' he suffers are ordinary, everyday slights.

Stannis' resentment comes from the fact he doesn't get to rule his family's ancestral castle, the place he probably views as his home, instead it's his younger brother who receives it and he 'only' gets a worse castle, or than he doesn't get named Hand despite years of hard work, it's someone else who gets the job, while he 'only' remains Master of Ships; and that Robert fucked her wife's cousin or his wedding day (I think he is right to resent this to a degree) while he married the less beautiful woman.

Yes, he could have been content with what he got, but because he always tried to emulate Robert (that's really the crux of the Proudwing story) and show his elder brother his worth but was ignored in response, he wasn't. Many people feel similarly or are in a similar situation and they immediately feel familiar with Stannis and sympathize with his 'plight'. (I think even GRRM does to a degree, that's why he writes him so well) They also fall into the mistake of treating Stannis' belief that Storm's End or the Handship belonged to him with the same righteousness as his (more understandable) belief that the Iron Throne belongs to him, and in the fact that nobody supports him in his quest to the Throne they see evidence that he has always been mistreated.

 

Compare this to Dany, who is perhaps the best parallel, since they both aim for the Throne and are both (in large part) motivated by duty. She (unlike Stannis) has been actually mistreated by her brother, lost the one place she could call her home and cannot go back (unlike Stannis), the rest of her family has been killed and she has been forced to go from one place to another fleeing from Robert's (imaginary) knives, been married to a Dothraki horselord (but she tried to make something or her marriage, unlike Stannis) and Robert has sent an assassin to kill her. She is constantly belittled and insulted by slavers and many other men, but she still never treats life as if it was singularly unfair to her (only fantasizes things about Daario and home).

 

Despite that, Dany is usually called entitled for wanting the Iron Throne while Stannis is the 'rightful King', her desire to punish the 'Usurper's dogs' whom she holds responsible for the murder of her family is horrible but Stannis' desire to 'have every man reap what he has sown' is cool, and most readers think she will be a foreign invader with Dothraki hordes who will bring nothing but destruction and nobody in Westeros will support her, while Stannis 'invading' Westeros from Dragonstone with sellswords, pirates and taking up a foreign religion is just him declaring his claim and embracing the necessary pragmatism and the fact that actually nobody supports him (before killing his brother) is a sign that something is wrong with Westeros and the fault of the 'schemers' that the nobles do not support the 'rightful King'. Dany gets everything handed over to her, while poor Stannis is just forced to rely on Melisandre.

I am not saying that Dany taking the Throne is right - because it is not - but it's really interesting that most people have this double standard in this regard, that they realize why feudalism is wrong when it comes to Dany but not when it comes to Stannis. I think the the Stark bias plays into it (we know that Dany is wrong about Ned, Ned supported Stannis, Stannis apparently helps the Starks in ASOS and ADWD), but the other important reason is that Dany' backstory is just too far-fetched, it's just not relatable to most male readers (well, it is for GRRM because he had a similar experience). I have to admit that I have also sympathized with Stannis more than Dany in my first reread, because I could connect to his social awkwardness to a degree while it was difficult to connect to Dany.

 

Overall, I think Stannis is a really good character, but exactly because he is a deconstruction of the trope of the 'righteous, just and dutiful King' and the retelling of MacBeth in a more sympathetic light.

Edited August 3, 2023 by csuszka1948

[astarkchoice]

8 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, I think astarkchoice's comment demonstrates exactly what I am talking about, describes perfectly the reasons why ordinary people find Stannis relatable: because the 'slights' he suffers are ordinary, everyday slights.

Stannis' resentment comes from the fact he doesn't get to rule his family's ancestral castle, the place he probably views as his home, instead it's his younger brother who receives it and he 'only' gets a worse castle, or than he doesn't get named Hand despite years of hard work, it's someone else who gets the job, while he 'only' remains Master of Ships.

Yes, he could have been content with what he got, but because he always tried to emulate Robert (that's really the crux of the Proudwing story) and show his elder brother his worth but was ignored in response, he wasn't. Many people feel similarly or are in a similar situation and they immediately feel familiar with Stannis and sympathize with his 'plight'. (I think even GRRM does, that's why he writes him so well)

 

Compare this to Dany, who is perhaps the best parallel, since they both aim for the Throne and are both (in large part) motivated by duty. She (unlike Stannis) has been actually mistreated by her brother, lost the one place she could call her home and cannot go back (unlike Stannis), the rest of her family has been killed and she has been forced to go from one place to another fleeing from Robert's (imaginary) knives, been married to a Dothraki horselord (but she tried to make something or her marriage, unlike Stannis) and Robert has sent an assassin to kill her.

Despite that, Dany is usually called entitled for wanting the Iron Throne while Stannis is the 'rightful King', her desire to punish the 'Usurper's dogs' whom she holds responsible for the murder of her family is horrible but Stannis' desire to 'have every man reap what he has sown' is cool, and most readers think she will be a foreign invader with Dothraki hordes who will bring nothing but destruction and nobody in Westeros will support her, while Stannis 'invading' Westeros from Dragonstone with sellswords, pirates and taking up a foreign religion is just him declaring his claim and embracing the necessary pragmatism and the fact that actually nobody supports him (before killing his brother) is a sign that something is wrong with Westeros and the fault of the 'schemers' that the nobles do not support the 'rightful King'. 

I am not saying that Dany taking the Throne is right - because it is not - but it's really interesting that most people have this double standard in this regard, that they realize why feudalism is wrong when it comes to Dany but not when it comes to Stannis. I think the the Stark bias plays into it (we know that Dany is wrong about Ned, Ned supported Stannis, Stannis apparently helps the Starks in ASOS and ADWD), but the other important reason is that Dany' backstory is just too far-fetched, it's just not relatable to most male readers (well, it is for GRRM because he had a similar experience). I have to admit that I have also sympathized with Stannis more than Dany in my first reread, because I could connect to his social awkwardness to a degree while it was difficult to connect to Dany.

 

You left out he married seylse for robert...id have killed him quicker than jamie for that one!!!

[csuszka1948]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

You left out he married seylse for robert...id have killed him quicker than jamie for that one!!!

 

No, I mentioned. Dany tried to make something out of a bad forced marriage, unlike Stannis, and she has gotten lucky with Drogo.

Selyse probably never has been a really good partner, but she didn't seem like a very horrible person (Cersei 2.0) either, she cares a lot for Shireen in the books. I would say Stannis' complete indifference and coldness towards her likely played a large part in her becoming a religious fanatics.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

56 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

We as readers KNOW  hes entitled to the throne. We know for a fact the kids aint roberts! Stannis and jon arryn have kust seen black haired robert lookalikes popping out of every other women not hidden from roberts sight and both have probably read the infamous  book on the subject

The throne belongs to Queen Daenerys, First of her name. Stannis is second (well third if Jon was a legitimate son of Rhaegar, which would also make Daenerys second in line) in line I suppose. See, entitled is a funny word. He is entitled to absolutely nothing. He THINKS he is entitled to it, but others don't. Renly doesn't. Cersei and the Lannisters don't. Daenerys certainly doesn't. I personally believe Stannis would be a terrible King, especially if he was just handled the crown in AGoT. You think he is entitled to the throne, and I would argue many Stannis fans think they are entitled to many things they, just like Stannis, aren't actually entitled to. 

30 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

hes arranged married to an ugly cold hairy lipped dragon, his only child struck down with grayscale , his brother acends the throne and must assign his kin roles to keep the baratheon powerbase intact....stannis despite serving longer and harder and being elder gets the shitty end of the stick vs renly. 

 

No one can honestly read the description of seleyse and think stannis hasnt took a horrible task from his brother king for the family good there.

Ooof. So some toxic masculinity eh? Is Stannis handsome? Do you know who I would hate to have an arranged marriage to? Stannis. A man who doesn't show his wife any affection. A man who spends as little time AS POSSIBLE with me. A man who is an asshole to everyone around me, and literally seems afraid to speak to most women. Honestly, this quote just sickened me. It's so obviously toxic. Women don't exist to be ogled by men, and don't deserve to be talked about this way, ever. Period. It's just so gross. 

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, I mentioned. Dany tried to make something out of a bad forced marriage, unlike Stannis, and she has gotten lucky with Drogo.

Selyse probably never has been a really good partner, but she didn't seem like a very horrible person (Cersei 2.0) either, she cares a lot for Shireen in the books. I would say Stannis' complete indifference and coldness towards her likely played a large part in her becoming a religious fanatics.

She seems likes shes always been a horrible snooty person though and poor stannis the woman is supposedly breathtakingly ugly...robert is cruel man theres other houses in the reach

[frenin]

19 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

they arent his family

Common decency is only reserved for family?

 

20 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

nor has he rebuked them for shit they cant help as stannis did for him and the escaped targ kids, nor has he picked one group and told them they are awesome and the others suck

No, just Davos, the rest suck.

 

20 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

And yes renly and stannis have their faults but both are right in that robert was a crap king and became a dangerously  lazy leader for the baratheon cause.

And yet the only leader both Renly and Stannis were willing to serve under, perks of being the eldest brother i guess, 

 

22 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Stannis by contrast we see rewards good service and honest council  regardless of station (davos)

Yeah, people always say Davos but always forget about the Florents, especially and particularly, Imry Florent.

 

24 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

hes arranged married to an ugly cold hairy lipped dragon,

The horror for a man as handsome and desirable as Stannis.

Everyone always picks on Selyse's looks, leaving aside the poor taste of the comments, what makes you believe Selyse was eager to marry Stannis at all?

 

 

40 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

his only child struck down with grayscale

That's why he never interacts with her, cause she's not what he wanted. For a man that always rants about how bad parent his brother is...

 

43 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

.stannis despite serving longer and harder and being elder gets the shitty end of the stick vs renly. 

He gets a handsome reward, should he get none? Robert could havve very much kept the seats within his own line and it'd still remain on Baratheon hands.

 

 

 

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

23 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, I mentioned. Dany tried to make something out of a bad forced marriage, unlike Stannis, and she has gotten lucky with Drogo.

Selyse probably never has been a really good partner, but she didn't seem like a very horrible person (Cersei 2.0) either, she cares a lot for Shireen in the books. I would say Stannis' complete indifference and coldness towards her likely played a large part in her becoming a religious fanatics.

Yes, see, as I said earlier, the reasonable responder here on Stannis's side, lol. Sorry, but I was really sickened by the Selyse comment and just glad to see someone say something about it. 

 

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

He is given the less prestigious dragonstone instead of stormsend to rule the stormlands for the baratheon cause  as robert needs him on dragonstone ok, he again follows his brother to war without question and is pivotal to the greyjoy war. Hes even forced to as we would say jump on a grenade for his brother ag jon afryns advice....to keep the tryells in line stannis must marry a cold, hairy lipped ugly wife AND robert humiliates  him on their wedding too!!! 

Please stop saying the same line about Selyse being ugly. Please. Stop. Catelyn is passed off to Eddard after Brandon dies. Lysa is married to a man 3 times older than her and forced by her father to get an abortion. Daenerys is married off to someone who can't speak the same language as her and is also twice..more than twice her age. Heck, from a male perspective. I'd rather be married to Selyse than to Cersei. See Selyse actually supports her husband and you know, doesn't try to murder him. Stop being so damn shallow. 

Oh, and Dragonstone vs. Storm's End. They both essentially are Robert's. He can give them to literally anyone he wants. Stannis isn't entitled to Storm's End. Actually, if I had to guess....Tommen is (or at least most commonly it would go this way). Now, of course....we now know Tommen is not Robert's son...but alas, that wasn't the case tell recently that anyone knew that. Robert could have given Storm's End to ....literally anyone. Granted he probably shouldn't go too far. Dragonstone is even more open to random awards as there would be no family to argue against it. He made Stannis into a great lord and kept him on his council. Stannis wasn't entitled to shit and Robert did award him for his service. By the way, although some younger brothers of Kings were made Hand of the King, that one was an especially wild claim, as mostly...they weren't. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[KingAerys_II]

27 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, I think astarkchoice's comment demonstrates exactly what I am talking about, describes perfectly the reasons why ordinary people find Stannis relatable: because the 'slights' he suffers are ordinary, everyday slights.

Stannis' resentment comes from the fact he doesn't get to rule his family's ancestral castle, the place he probably views as his home, instead it's his younger brother who receives it and he 'only' gets a worse castle, or than he doesn't get named Hand despite years of hard work, it's someone else who gets the job, while he 'only' remains Master of Ships; and that Robert fucked her wife's cousin or his wedding day (I think he is right to resent this to a degree) while he married the less beautiful woman.

Yes, he could have been content with what he got, but because he always tried to emulate Robert (that's really the crux of the Proudwing story) and show his elder brother his worth but was ignored in response, he wasn't. Many people feel similarly or are in a similar situation and they immediately feel familiar with Stannis and sympathize with his 'plight'. (I think even GRRM does to a degree, that's why he writes him so well) They also fall into the mistake of treating Stannis' belief that Storm's End or the Handship belonged to him with the same righteousness as his (more understandable) belief that the Iron Throne belongs to him, and in the fact that nobody supports him in his quest to the Throne they see evidence that he has always been mistreated.

 

Compare this to Dany, who is perhaps the best parallel, since they both aim for the Throne and are both (in large part) motivated by duty. She (unlike Stannis) has been actually mistreated by her brother, lost the one place she could call her home and cannot go back (unlike Stannis), the rest of her family has been killed and she has been forced to go from one place to another fleeing from Robert's (imaginary) knives, been married to a Dothraki horselord (but she tried to make something or her marriage, unlike Stannis) and Robert has sent an assassin to kill her.

Despite that, Dany is usually called entitled for wanting the Iron Throne while Stannis is the 'rightful King', her desire to punish the 'Usurper's dogs' whom she holds responsible for the murder of her family is horrible but Stannis' desire to 'have every man reap what he has sown' is cool, and most readers think she will be a foreign invader with Dothraki hordes who will bring nothing but destruction and nobody in Westeros will support her, while Stannis 'invading' Westeros from Dragonstone with sellswords, pirates and taking up a foreign religion is just him declaring his claim and embracing the necessary pragmatism and the fact that actually nobody supports him (before killing his brother) is a sign that something is wrong with Westeros and the fault of the 'schemers' that the nobles do not support the 'rightful King'. Dany gets everything handed over to her, while poor Stannis is just forced to rely on Melisandre.

I am not saying that Dany taking the Throne is right - because it is not - but it's really interesting that most people have this double standard in this regard, that they realize why feudalism is wrong when it comes to Dany but not when it comes to Stannis. I think the the Stark bias plays into it (we know that Dany is wrong about Ned, Ned supported Stannis, Stannis apparently helps the Starks in ASOS and ADWD), but the other important reason is that Dany' backstory is just too far-fetched, it's just not relatable to most male readers (well, it is for GRRM because he had a similar experience). I have to admit that I have also sympathized with Stannis more than Dany in my first reread, because I could connect to his social awkwardness to a degree while it was difficult to connect to Dany.

 

Overall, I think Stannis is a really good character, but exactly because he is a deconstruction of the trope of the 'righteous, just and dutiful King' and the retelling of MacBeth in a more sympathetic light.

It's because Daenerys is a young girl, she proved to be smarter than Stannis, she acquired the Unsullied army and defeated Merro by using tricks, but she has never been a warrior or Commander, never won a proper battle, male readers sympathies to Stannis because he is male, stern, won some petty battles against the Greyjoys and the wildings, then he murdered his brother thanks to the ginger chick otherwise he would have lost against Renly, he is only interested in the throne, but he lost the battle of Blackwater, it seems he is not  aware of his force and tends to overestimate his power, then the Lightbringer thing is ridiculous, almost a scam

[csuszka1948]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

He gets a handsome reward, should he get none? Robert could havve very much kept the seats within his own line and it'd still remain on Baratheon hands.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but he cannot help himself but compare it to what have others gotten, especially his brothers.

He sees that Robert barely put an energy to anything and he is still a hero and a respected King while he probably put a lot of work into ruling with Jon Arryn and being Master of Ships but this isn't recognized (yes, he might be deluded about this but the fact that Jon Arryn wanted to foster Sweetrobin in Dragonstone shows that it's probably true).

There is even more to it: he sees that he starved himself (while probably feeding enough food for Renly, at least that's my impression) for Robert to protect Storm's End - instead of taking the alluring route of betraying his despised brother who left him to rule SE and 'raise' Renly as a 15-year old boy while he went of whoring to the Vale, and being rewarded Storm's End - and still Renly has gotten their ancestral home instead of him.

When encountering Renly, he thinks Renly should do what Stannis feels he has done for Robert 17 years ago and support his elder brother instead of 'betraying' him for his ambition because that's his duty.

 

Proudwing's story is really illustrating this IMO: Stannis wasn't a bad person, he could have had something fragile and precious on his own, but he tried to emulate Robert instead, being a 'hero' when that's not a role that fits to him.

Edited August 3, 2023 by csuszka1948