When did Dunk join the Kingsguard?

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Feels like something Dunk would simply never do. Not only would he never dishonor a princess, he would also not allow her to be married off just because he got her pregnant.

I don’t think Dunk would have been in a position to protest Aegon (or Maekar for that matter) deciding on who to marry their sister/daughter off to.  Dunk seems to be ok with one night stands, so I’m not sure his honor would see him demanding that he be allowed to marry her.

Especially if there was some chicanery involved in Dunk getting together with Aegon’s sister.  In the three stories we’re given, there has already been talk of love potions and hints of glamours.  In such a situation, I’m sure Dunk wouldn’t feel any particular loyalty to the girl.

The possibility of a glamour would be interesting.  There is at least a hint that Shiera Seastar had glamoured Bloodraven to appear as Maynard Plumm.  And if Aegon’s sister had learned to make a love potion, Shiera seems the most like candidate to have taught the girl that craft.  So helping her cast a glamour to sneak her way to Dunk’s bedside would make for a particularly interesting tale.

And if the offspring of that one night stand, under that magical circumstance, ended up being an ancestor of Brienne, that would make for a nice wink and a nod to the tales of King Arthur and the Volsunga saga.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t think Dunk would have been in a position to protest Aegon (or Maekar for that matter) deciding on who to marry their sister/daughter off to.  Dunk seems to be ok with one night stands, so I’m not sure his honor would see him demanding that he be allowed to marry her.

Dunk has yet to have sex, and it is quite obviously that he wanted from both Tanselle and Rohanne wasn't, you know, just a one night stand.

Obviously, Daella Targaryen would be married off while Aerys I or Maekar sit the throne, not Aegon V. But the idea is not that there is royal permission there. More like Egg dissolves his betrothal to Daella, Aerion wants to claim her instead, and Dunk marries her to prevent that. They could be drawn to each other before but one would assume that while Egg and Daella were yet betrothed there is no actually sleeping around going on.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Especially if there was some chicanery involved in Dunk getting together with Aegon’s sister.  In the three stories we’re given, there has already been talk of love potions and hints of glamours.  In such a situation, I’m sure Dunk wouldn’t feel any particular loyalty to the girl.

The possibility of a glamour would be interesting.  There is at least a hint that Shiera Seastar had glamoured Bloodraven to appear as Maynard Plumm.  And if Aegon’s sister had learned to make a love potion, Shiera seems the most like candidate to have taught the girl that craft.  So helping her cast a glamour to sneak her way to Dunk’s bedside would make for a particularly interesting tale.

And if the offspring of that one night stand, under that magical circumstance, ended up being an ancestor of Brienne, that would make for a nice wink and a nod to the tales of King Arthur and the Volsunga saga.

That feels like total weirdness. Also, Rhae Targaryen is like eight or six years old in THK (younger than Egg). The chances that she had an actual 'love potion' is about as likely as Egg and Aemon playing around with actual knights as pages. Not to mention that we don't even know if real love potions are a thing in this world. Mel has enticing powders and such, but not actual love potions.

Bloodraven doesn't need his paramour to create a glamor. He is a sorcerer himself.

Also, chances are about zero that Maekar's girls - who live at Summerhall - will ever spend much or any time with Shiera Seastar.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Dunk has yet to have sex, and it is quite obviously that he wanted from both Tanselle and Rohanne wasn't, you know, just a one night stand.

Oh, I dunno.  I think the reason we got a cutaway (heh) after Dunk got his dirk out in the stable (heh) is that he may have cut off more than her braid.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That feels like total weirdness. Also, Rhae Targaryen is like eight or six years old in THK (younger than Egg). The chances that she had an actual 'love potion' is about as likely as Egg and Aemon playing around with actual knights as pages. Not to mention that we don't even know if real love potions are a thing in this world. Mel has enticing powders and such, but not actual love potions.

I don’t really see why there wouldn’t be.  If she did have one, I think it’s a safe bet we know who she got it from.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Bloodraven doesn't need his paramour to create a glamor. He is a sorcerer himself.

Yet we have this passage from the Worldbook:

Quote

Bloodraven proved to be a capable Hand, but also a master of whisperers who rivaled Lady Misery, and there were those who thought he and his half sister and paramour, Shiera Seastar, used sorcery to ferret out secrets.

So what part would Shiera play?  I think Bloodraven is known as a sorcerer because of his abilities as a Greenseer, which surely could be seen as a type of sorcery.  We don’t have any particular reason to believe that Bloodraven could cast glamours or other such type of magic.  So my guess is that Shiera was providing the glamour to help Bloodraven ferret out secrets.

And yes, it’s “total weirdness” but it’s also a staple in mythology.  Especially in the Arthurian tales, where not only do the knights occasionally get suckered into a “glamoured” dalliance, (see the tale of the Green Knight) but it’s also how King Arthur was conceived.

If GRRM is going to bring glamours into a tale centering around Knights (which it at least appears he has), I don’t see how he resists putting his own spin on this particular and peculiar trope.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Oh, I dunno.  I think the reason we got a cutaway (heh) after Dunk got his dirk out in the stable (heh) is that he may have cut off more than her braid.

That strikes me as a very bad interpretation. It is clear Dunk wanted Rohanne's hand, not a night with her. He is pissed about the 'sensible outcome' there and certainly wouldn't draw any satisfaction from fucking her after she just clearly rejected him where it counted. Also one wouldn't imagine that Dunk having sex for the first time would be important enough for us to see it. Not to mention that Dunk still acts like a version when he encounters Walder's sister in her wedding night.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t really see why there wouldn’t be.  If she did have one, I think it’s a safe bet we know who she got it from.

While we have confirmation that Aemon and Egg lived at court for a time as pages ... Maekar's family as such lives at Summerhall, girls included. So unless we have information that Rhae Targaryen is some pet of Shiera's I very much doubt that she is allowed to spend time with a woman Egg thinks bathes in the blood of maidens.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet we have this passage from the Worldbook:

So what part would Shiera play?  I think Bloodraven is known as a sorcerer because of his abilities as a Greenseer, which surely could be seen as a type of sorcery.  We don’t have any particular reason to believe that Bloodraven could cast glamours or other such type of magic.  So my guess is that Shiera was providing the glamour to help Bloodraven ferret out secrets.

Shiera wasn't mentioned in TMK where Bloodraven may have used a glamor ... and he, Bloodraven himself, is rumored to be a sorcerer both in TSS and TMK. No reason to believe Bloodraven had to go to his half-sister for glamors.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And yes, it’s “total weirdness” but it’s also a staple in mythology.  Especially in the Arthurian tales, where not only do the knights occasionally get suckered into a “glamoured” dalliance, (see the tale of the Green Knight) but it’s also how King Arthur was conceived.

If GRRM is going to bring glamours into a tale centering around Knights (which it at least appears he has), I don’t see how he resists putting his own spin on this particular and peculiar trope.

Not saying anything against such stories, but I doubt Dunk will be at the center of such things. Pretty sure no royal princess will be needing a glamor to seduce him. The idea that glamors might be used for such things in the books is not that bad, although it seems they are not good enough for that kind of deception.

[Frey family reunion]

Back to the original question.  Maekar was killed during the storming of Starpike.  My guess is a large number of Kingsguards were present during this battle.  Perhaps it was a bloody affair and as a result it led to a number of Kingsguard vacancies for Aegon to fill.  Perhaps this is when Duncan was appointed, and why after a relatively short time he was able to ascend to the spot of Lord Commander.  

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Back to the original question.  Maekar was killed during the storming of Starpike.  My guess is a large number of Kingsguards were present during this battle.  Perhaps it was a bloody affair and as a result it led to a number of Kingsguard vacancies for Aegon to fill.  Perhaps this is when Duncan was appointed, and why after a relatively short time he was able to ascend to the spot of Lord Commander.  

Yeah, we touched upon that earlier already. If so, Dunk could either be Egg's choice once he was king ... or, perhaps a better scenario, Bloodraven's choice during the interregnum and Dunk's new role as KG is crucial in the maneuverings to make Egg king at the Great Council.

I think we can assume that Bloodraven wants to make Egg king.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:37 AM, James Steller said:

Was it before or after Egg became king? Or is that something GRRM hasn’t revealed yet?

I'd like to believe that it was during the reigns of Aerys or Maekar. If he joined in 233 AC, he'd have been around 41 when he joined.

[Mourning Star]

On 8/10/2023 at 11:21 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think we can assume that Bloodraven wants to make Egg king.

I do not think this was the case.

Egg is described as the obvious choice, why call a council to elect the obvious choice?

I would suggest that Bloodraven, a legitimized son of Aegon IV, intended to be crowned himself.

[Lord Varys]

50 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I do not think this was the case.

Egg is described as the obvious choice, why call a council to elect the obvious choice?

I would suggest that Bloodraven, a legitimized son of Aegon IV, intended to be crowned himself.

There is literally zero evidence for this as Bloodraven is not mentioned as having been a claimant whose claim was presented or considered.

Also, from the position of Hand Bloodraven could have easily enough usurped the throne without bothering with a silly council.

Egg was also obviously not 'the obvious choice' as there wouldn't have been a Great Council if that had been the case as he then would have been Maekar's designated heir. Instead, it seems as if the court and the royal family had no idea who should succeed Maekar and there must have been powerful factions which wanted to see either Vaella or Maegor on the throne rather than Egg. The children fell through during the council ... but that goes by majority vote and involves many lords which aren't close to power. And them falling through led to many people focus on Aemon as an alternative pretender, not Bloodraven.

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I do not think this was the case.

Egg is described as the obvious choice, why call a council to elect the obvious choice?

I would suggest that Bloodraven, a legitimized son of Aegon IV, intended to be crowned himself.

Egg may have been the "obvious choice" (albeit that's debatable) but the succession wasn't clear-cut. Egg had at least one person indisputably ahead of him in the line of succession (Maegor) and two others who had complicating factors but had to be ruled out. The Great Council was presumably (in Bloodraven's mind) a means of settling the succession by agreement on Aegon, and thereby minimising the risk of a later dispute, whereas a simple proclamation or coup to put Aegon in charge would run a higher risk of malcontents later pushing one of the alternative claimants. If everyone has had a chance to put their case and it's been determined by a council, it doesn't rule out the prospect of trouble later (hence why Aemon was sent to the Wall) but it helps minimise it.

It would be interesting to know what happened to Maegor. Aemon was at the Wall, and Vaella's support appears to have been negligible, but given how controversial some of Aegon's reforms supposedly were, a grown Maegor could have formed a focus for opposition, in the same way Daemon did under Daeron.

[Mourning Star]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is literally zero evidence for this as Bloodraven is not mentioned as having been a claimant whose claim was presented or considered.

I didn't say there was a lot of evidence, just that I believe it.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, from the position of Hand Bloodraven could have easily enough usurped the throne without bothering with a silly council.

Maybe, but I don't know that there is evidence for this either.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Egg was also obviously not 'the obvious choice' as there wouldn't have been a Great Council if that had been the case as he then would have been Maekar's designated heir. Instead, it seems as if the court and the royal family had no idea who should succeed Maekar and there must have been powerful factions which wanted to see either Vaella or Maegor on the throne rather than Egg. The children fell through during the council ... but that goes by majority vote and involves many lords which aren't close to power. And them falling through led to many people focus on Aemon as an alternative pretender, not Bloodraven.

Egg was the obvious choice per the world book.

In 233 AC, hundred of lords great and small assembled in King's Landing. With both of Maekar's elder sons deceased, there were four possible claimants. The Great Council dismissed Prince Daeron's sweet but simple-minded daughter Vaella immediately. Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame's son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father's cruelty and madness. Prince Aegon was the obvious choice, but some lords distrusted him as well, for his wanderings with his hedge knight had left him "half a peasant," according to many. Enough hated him, in fact, that an effort was made to determine whether his elder brother Maester Aemon might be released from his vows, but Aemon refused, and nothing came of it.
Even as the Great Council was debating, however, another claimant appeared in King's Landing: none other than Aenys Blackfyre, the fifth of the Black Dragon's seven sons. When the Great Council had first been announced, Aenys had written from exile in Tyrosh, putting forward his case in the hope that his words might win him the Iron Throne that his forebears had thrice failed to win with their swords. Bloodraven, the King's Hand, had responded by offering him a safe conduct, so the pretender might come to King's Landing and present his claim in person.

The quote above says there were four possible claimants, Vaella, Maegor, Egg, and then goes on to say that in an effort was made to determine if Aemon was possible but nothing came of it. I think Bloodraven was the fourth.

[Mourning Star]

17 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It would be interesting to know what happened to Maegor.

Yes it would! one of the few possible branches of House Targaryen that could still be around come ASoIaF