When did Dunk join the Kingsguard?

[James Steller]

Was it before or after Egg became king? Or is that something GRRM hasn’t revealed yet?

[SaffronLady]

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In late 233 AC, after Aegon had ascended the throne as Aegon V Targaryen, Duncan escorted Aegon's brother Aemon to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, where Aemon was going to join the Night's Watch.^[15]

Duncan eventually joined the Kingsguard. While it is unknown when exactly he took his vows, the first known mention of him as a Kingsguard knight is in 236 AC.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

My headcanon is that one of the kingsguard knights died alongside Maekar during Peake’s rebellion, and Egg then appointed Duncan upon becoming king. It sound like he became a kingsguard fairly early in Egg’s reign.

[Dragonbane]

In my headcanon Dunk was appointed the Kingsguard during Maekar reign, (he higly values Dunk, as seen in The Hedge Knight finale) it's implied that when he escorted Aemon and Bloodraven he was already a KG. I personal would a list of Lords Commander of Kingsguard, Jaime in ASOS mentioned "Demon of Darry" and Alyn Connington, the Pale Griffin. For a simple question of logic, these two are most likely collocated between Daeron II and Maekar.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Dragonbane

[Gilbert Green]

Simplest hypothesis:  Dunk joined the Kingsguard when Egg became King.  No need to quibble if it was before or after he was actually crowned.

[Lord Varys]

Sometimes between 211 and 236 AC.

20 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

My headcanon is that one of the kingsguard knights died alongside Maekar during Peake’s rebellion, and Egg then appointed Duncan upon becoming king. It sound like he became a kingsguard fairly early in Egg’s reign.

That is no bad idea. I think it either has to be something along those lines ... or Dunk being as stupid as to join the KG during the reign of Aerys I while Rhaegel, Aelor or Aelora were still next in line, i.e. before Maekar became heir and the king. I can't see Dunk wanting to protect or serve Daeron and (especially not) Aerion. If he joined Maekar's (eventual) KG he would have to be much more masochistic than he is portrayed so far.

If he joined under Maekar then only after Aerion's death in 232 AC. If there were vacancies caused by Maekar's death Dunk could also be invested by Bloodraven during the interregnum and in preparation for the Great Council. I do expect that Dunk was quite busy during the council ensuring Egg gets enough votes.

19 hours ago, Dragonbane said:

In my headcanon Dunk was appointed the Kingsguard during Maekar reign, (he higly values Dunk, as seen in The Hedge Knight finale) it's implied that when he escorted Aemon and Bloodraven he was already a KG. I personal would a list of Lords Commander of Kingsguard, Jaime in ASOS mentioned "Demon of Darry" and Alyn Connington, the Pale Griffin. For a simple question of logic, these two are most likely collocated between Daeron II and Maekar.

The Demon of Darry might turn out to be the Ser Damon Darry we saw show up at the end of FaB. He could eventually join the KG under Aegon III and be Lord Commander when the Dragonknight joins the KG.

[Dragonbane]

We must remember of Dunk at start of Egg reign is already in his forties. I consider this unlikely. in ASOIAF only Meryn Trant and maybe Boros Blount are in this age, all other is clearly younger, and Jaime is only 33 when became Lord Commander. Your point on Demon of Darry that might  be Aegon III Lord Commander is intriguing, I never think of it. Aemon is mentioned as Lord commander of his cousins Daeron and Baelor, his father Viserys and his wicked brother Aegon, but not of his uncle. And in fact when the Broken King died Aemon is only 21. I suggest a question: Aemon can be his father Hand? I believe not.

[Gilbert Green]

29 minutes ago, Dragonbane said:

We must remember of Dunk at start of Egg reign is already in his forties. I consider this unlikely.

Dunk was a common hedge knight.  When Egg was considered for the kingship, one of the arguments made against him -- suggesting he was half a commoner himself -- was that he had squired for a common hedge knight.

Aegon the Unlikely was ... Unlikely.  Once the unlikely happened and Egg became King, Dunk's qualification was that Egg trusted him, and did not care about his humble hedge-knight origins.  Nor, I suppose, his age.

Quibbling about Dunk's age overlooks the unlikeliness of the whole situation.  And having him rise to the kingsguard in advance of Egg's own unlikely rise undercuts irony of the "meek shall inherit" theme.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Alester Florent]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sometimes between 211 and 236 AC.

That is no bad idea. I think it either has to be something along those lines ... or Dunk being as stupid as to join the KG during the reign of Aerys I while Rhaegel, Aelor or Aelora were still next in line, i.e. before Maekar became heir and the king. I can't see Dunk wanting to protect or serve Daeron and (especially not) Aerion. If he joined Maekar's (eventual) KG he would have to be much more masochistic than he is portrayed so far.

I could see Dunk working with Daeron, although he obviously wouldn't have been as committed to him as to Aegon. Although Daeron was partially responsible for the situation in which Dunk found himself, he did try to make it up to him, and Dunk seemed genuinely relieved to learn that he had survived the Trial of Seven, while I don't imagine he would have had any sleepless nights if Aerion had died of his injuries. Dunk knows Daeron is a bit useless, but I don't think he dislikes him: I could even imagine them becoming friends of a sort, if circumstances permit.

Especially if it's a personal appeal from Maekar, say: "I won't live forever, Daeron needs someone to protect him from himself, you're the best man for the job; either you join the Kingsguard, the highest honour a knight can achieve, or you're most likely going to live out your life scraping by as a hedge knight or in service to some provincial lord." I guess the main reason to refuse is Aerion, but hopefully the Lord Commander of the day would be shrewd enough to keep them apart. 

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We must remember of Dunk at start of Egg reign is already in his forties. I consider this unlikely. in ASOIAF only Meryn Trant and maybe Boros Blount are in this age, all other is clearly younger, and Jaime is only 33 when became Lord Commander. Your point on Demon of Darry that might  be Aegon III Lord Commander is intriguing, I never think of it. Aemon is mentioned as Lord commander of his cousins Daeron and Baelor, his father Viserys and his wicked brother Aegon, but not of his uncle. And in fact when the Broken King died Aemon is only 21. I suggest a question: Aemon can be his father Hand? I believe not.

I think Jaime is probably unusually young for a Lord Commander; the LC would normally be the most senior of the KG knights. Joffrey's kingsguard is unusual because there was a bonfire of KG knights at the end of Aerys's reign, meaning a dearth of middle-aged knights now, and because of its relatively low quality, with only Barristan, Jaime and Arys seemingly up to the usual standard, and Boros well below it. And although Jaime is the most senior (and capable) member left after Barristan, the principal reason for appointing him is clearly nepotism. And Jaime was also probably relatively young when he joined the Kingsguard in the first place. 

I would expect most KG knights to join in their mid-to-late 20s (i.e. after they've had a chance to build a reputation, but while they're still at their physical peak) and, if they become Lord Commander, to do so in their 40s or 50s. So yeah, for Dunk to join the KG in his 40s would be rather late, and doesn't give him much time to build up the seniority to be a sensible choice for Lord Commander. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Dragonbane said:

We must remember of Dunk at start of Egg reign is already in his forties. I consider this unlikely. in ASOIAF only Meryn Trant and maybe Boros Blount are in this age, all other is clearly younger, and Jaime is only 33 when became Lord Commander.

Age isn't such a big factor there. Just think of the older guy joining the legendary first Kingsguard of Jaehaerys I. And while Dunk is already tall and strong, he isn't a very good knight so far. He might certainly reach the height of his abilities in his thirties, say. Also, of course, Dunk might not actually be made a KG just because of his abilities. Also because he is a man the king in question trusts, the entire thing is a reward or boon for him, personally, etc.

8 hours ago, Dragonbane said:

Your point on Demon of Darry that might  be Aegon III Lord Commander is intriguing, I never think of it. Aemon is mentioned as Lord commander of his cousins Daeron and Baelor, his father Viserys and his wicked brother Aegon, but not of his uncle. And in fact when the Broken King died Aemon is only 21. I suggest a question: Aemon can be his father Hand? I believe not.

I think if Viserys II had a Targaryen Hand it is more likely he would have named his own grandson, the future Daeron II. But he is too young for the job.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I could see Dunk working with Daeron, although he obviously wouldn't have been as committed to him as to Aegon. Although Daeron was partially responsible for the situation in which Dunk found himself, he did try to make it up to him, and Dunk seemed genuinely relieved to learn that he had survived the Trial of Seven, while I don't imagine he would have had any sleepless nights if Aerion had died of his injuries. Dunk knows Daeron is a bit useless, but I don't think he dislikes him: I could even imagine them becoming friends of a sort, if circumstances permit.

Working with Daeron, sure. Looking forward to see him as king and serving on his (future) Kingsguard? Not so much. Daeron is already a disgrace in THK and while Dunk doesn't actually hate him, they are not friends. And while it is technically possible they get closer later ... I don't expect that to happen. In fact, we should expect Daeron's mental state to decline over the years as both his bad habits and his dreams slowly kill him.

Also, while Dunk certainly respects Prince Maekar ... I don't think he would be keen to serve on his Kingsguard, either. As a household knight, sure, but as a man sworn to him in such a total way? Hard to imagine at this point.

But the biggest thing actually is that Dunk doesn't want to be a KG at all. He wants to make a name for himself, wants to have sex, wants to have a wife and children one day. He doesn't want to cut off his cock and balls become a bloody eunuch - and that is what he will be as KG. He won't break his vows and sleep around when he wears the white cloak.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Especially if it's a personal appeal from Maekar, say: "I won't live forever, Daeron needs someone to protect him from himself, you're the best man for the job; either you join the Kingsguard, the highest honour a knight can achieve, or you're most likely going to live out your life scraping by as a hedge knight or in service to some provincial lord." I guess the main reason to refuse is Aerion, but hopefully the Lord Commander of the day would be shrewd enough to keep them apart. 

That is not likely going to be the dichotomy there. Dunk will have a distinguished career as a knight and warrior long before he becomes a KG. It has already started. Sure enough, Ashford wasn't a big career step ... but he got the attention of the royal family - more than most knights of the Realm can say. Standfast had him hook up with people who will become powerful in later life (the future Lady of Casterly Rock) and in TMK he plays a crucial role in stopping a Blackfyre pretender and gains the attention (and friendship) of Lord Bloodraven himself.

The man will loom larger than life long before he becomes a KG. And that means he will also have the means and the coin and the standing to not be dependent on Maekar's patronage or mercy.

There might also be twists and turns to his career, to be sure - for instance, if he ends up marrying Princess Daella, as I think he will, then this might involve a temporary fall from grace, causing him and Daella to live a quiet and modest life at Pennytree. The way the village ends up being a royal fief might happen when the knight or petty lord of Pennytree - Dunk - ends up joining the KG without having a male heir (his and Daella's daughter already being married to the Evenstar of Tarth at that point).

But in general his path should lead him up ... and while he will always have humble beginnings he won't be a humble hedge knight most of his life.

More importantly, though, joining the KG under Maekar - or at a point when Maekar is already heir to the throne - would mean that Dunk puts himself at Aerion's mercy in any case. As KG he would be forced to obey his every whim. Even if there were rules that Dunk is sworn shield of Daeron or Egg or Maekar himself - whenever his charge or the king wouldn't be around Aerion could force Dunk to do silly things, could torture him mentally, could make him the butt of his jokes, etc.

That is not something Dunk would want for himself.

Also, Daeron could easily enough already be severely ill by the time Maekar takes the throne, so Aerion becoming the heir might already be a not so unlikely prospect at that time. Maekar was a strong man, could have lived much longer had he not died in battle, but Daeron's health could have become an issue long before his actual death.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I would expect most KG knights to join in their mid-to-late 20s (i.e. after they've had a chance to build a reputation, but while they're still at their physical peak) and, if they become Lord Commander, to do so in their 40s or 50s. So yeah, for Dunk to join the KG in his 40s would be rather late, and doesn't give him much time to build up the seniority to be a sensible choice for Lord Commander. 

We know that Egg's will be a troubled reign. More than one KG could have died with Maekar at Starpike, and later during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. Dunk is only mentioned as Lord Commander of the KG in the 250s, and by that time he was both pretty old and could have been a pretty long serving member of the order. Also, of course, I'd imagine that Egg would have made him Lord Commander pretty early to ensure that he can rely on his KG completely.

I'd also not be surprised if Dunk ended up becoming Egg's Hand at one point - the driving force of Egg's reforms is not so likely Egg himself but actually Dunk. Egg gets some insights into the lives of the commoners, to be sure, but Dunk is actually one of them - and he is the guy with an unfailing sense of justice.

[Dragonbane]

I  will answer in details later. Now I want propose a problem. We don't know anyone Aegon V'Hands, and Egg reigned for a quarter of century, this is strange... I think this is a deliberate choice for cover Summerhall circostance, and personally I guess Dunk was Aegon last Hand.

[Loose Bolt]

Another problem would be that Dunk is nobody when many KG are relatives of lords or landed knights. So I assume that only king who would name D as member of KG would be A5. Or all other kings would rather hire somebody with better pedigree than a hedge knight with unknown origin.

[Aebram]

The wiki tells us that Egg was crowned in 233 AC, and:

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Duncan eventually joined the Kingsguard. While it is unknown when exactly he took his vows, the first known mention of him as a Kingsguard knight is in 236 AC.

I'm sure Egg named Dunk to the KG at the first opportunity, because of his long friendship and loyalty, similarly to how Young Griff named Rolly Duckfield. (Dunk / Duck, similar nicknames)

But of course, the KG is limited to seven men, and they served for life (until Joffrey fired  Ser Barristan). So Egg would have had to wait until someone died -- unless there were already less than seven at the time of his coronation.  Sorry, I'm not sure if we know the complete history of the KG at that time.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Dragonbane said:

I  will answer in details later. Now I want propose a problem. We don't know anyone Aegon V'Hands, and Egg reigned for a quarter of century, this is strange... I think this is a deliberate choice for cover Summerhall circostance, and personally I guess Dunk was Aegon last Hand.

The fact that we don't know any of Egg's Hands - assuming he had more than one - is a strong hint that Dunk was one of them. That would be something George might to reveal only when he feels like it. But, of course, it is likely that Dunk was only made Hand when he was also Lord Commander, as it wouldn't really fly if he were Hand while he was still technically obliged to be obey his Lord Commander as a KG.

9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Another problem would be that Dunk is nobody when many KG are relatives of lords or landed knights. So I assume that only king who would name D as member of KG would be A5. Or all other kings would rather hire somebody with better pedigree than a hedge knight with unknown origin.

That isn't an issue as all hedge knight were part of the KG from the very beginning - both the first Kingsguard Visenya assembled as well as Jaehaerys I's first Kingsguard did have hedge knights in their ranks.

Also, Dunk's personal connections to Egg and other Targaryens ensure that he will be advanced long before he becomes a KG. He could be a landed knight or even a lord in his own right by the time he gives that up and joins the KG.

Technically, Dunk already has the connections to become a KG tomorrow. Both Maekar and Bloodraven could arrange it. And if Bloodraven is Maynard Plumm in TMK - which is very much implied - then they are friends already, too, even if Dunk doesn't realize it.

[Gilbert Green]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that we don't know any of Egg's Hands - assuming he had more than one - is a strong hint that Dunk was one of them.

Disagree.  The identity of the Hand(s) of the King under Aegon V, is like the function served by the Master of Laws, or the details of Aragorn's Tax Policy.  Something that is or was presumably of some importance in-universe, but which the storyteller had no particular need to tell his readers all about.

The "argument from silence" only works when you would expect the information to be given.  There is no expectation here.  GRRM has not even written F&B2 yet.

[Mourning Star]

Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander.

That Aemon does not call Duncan Lord Commander, nor even a member of the Kingsguard, when describing his journey to the Wall, tells me his appointment was after Aegon was crowned. Which to my mind also makes sense.

This would place his appointment between 233 and 236.

I would add, that while Egg appointing Dunk as his Lord Commander, or even just one of the Kingsguard makes some sense, I wouldn't be surprised to find that there was more drama involved.

This is speculation only, but the fact that Brienne remembers Dunk's shield being in Tarth (and uses the sigil herself), and Dunk would have started using a white shield once he was named to the Kingsguard, we don't know who Brienne's mother was, GRRM has said Dunk's descendent exists in ASoIaF despite the fact that I know of no record of Duncan having a wife, Aemon remembers Egg's sisters having children, and this odd line from the world book:

The Sapphire Isle, as some call it, is ruled by House Tarth of Evenfall Hall—an old family of Andal descent that boasts of ties to the Durrandons, the Baratheons, and more recently to House Targaryen. Once kings in their own right, the Lords of Tarth still style themselves "the Evenstar," a title that they claim goes back unto the dawn of days.

That Duncan may have been father to one (or more) of Egg's sister's children, who then married into House Tarth, making Brienne his descendent.

Perhaps naming Dunk to the Kingsguard was also intended to put an end to a relationship with Egg's sister.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Frey family reunion]

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Perhaps naming Dunk to the Kingsguard was also intended to put an end to a relationship with Egg's sister.

That would be an interesting twist.

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

That Duncan may have been father to one (or more) of Egg's sister's children, who then married into House Tarth, making Brienne his descendent.

Or, Egg's sister was "dishonored" by Dunk, and then quickly married off to an aged Lord of Tarth, for the sake of plausible deniability.  And perhaps Egg's sister brought Dunk's shield with her as a memento.

My guess is that it would be the same sister that tried to slip Egg the love potion.  Perhaps that's what kept Dunk's head on his shoulders, that she took advantage of him.

[Mourning Star]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or, Egg's sister was "dishonored" by Dunk, and then quickly married off to an aged Lord of Tarth, for the sake of plausible deniability.  And perhaps Egg's sister brought Dunk's shield with her as a memento.

My guess is that it would be the same sister that tried to slip Egg the love potion.  Perhaps that's what kept Dunk's head on his shoulders, that she took advantage of him.

Ok so this is not just speculation but wild speculation, but what if it was both Daella and Rhae who had children with Dunk?

My favorite two candidates for Duncan's decedents are Brienne and Hodor.

I like my completely unfounded headcannon that Daella or her descendent married into house Tarth, while Rhae is Old Nan!

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or, Egg's sister was "dishonored" by Dunk, and then quickly married off to an aged Lord of Tarth, for the sake of plausible deniability.  And perhaps Egg's sister brought Dunk's shield with her as a memento.

My guess is that it would be the same sister that tried to slip Egg the love potion.  Perhaps that's what kept Dunk's head on his shoulders, that she took advantage of him.

Feels like something Dunk would simply never do. Not only would he never dishonor a princess, he would also not allow her to be married off just because he got her pregnant. If the Targaryens pulled something like that on him then he wouldn't join their fucking KG, he would slit their throats. And while we are talking princesses, this could easily happen at a time when Maekar isn't king yet, so she would be a princess at the low end of a cadet branch.

It is more likely we have another case a morganatic marriage - and the sister in question wouldn't be little Rhae but the elder sister Daella. The family tree has her as Egg's elder sister, born between him and Aemon. George is the kind of guy to pair Dunk with the sister which was actually supposed to marry Egg. Also, the fact that Daella is no older than Egg and thus not that far away from Aerion, age-wise, raises the question why Aerion didn't end up with a sister-wife - which is clearly what he wanted. Aerion's son by Daenora, Maegor, only being born in 232 AC makes it likely he married her only in the 220s, likely only after Egg married Betha in 220 AC. In fact, as per TMK (211 AC) Prince Rhaegel produced only the twins Aelor and Aelora, so Daenora will be born in 212-216 AC (she could be Rhaegel's posthumous child), which means she might still be a teenager even around 230 AC. If we go with that, then Aerion not claiming Daella for himself when Egg dissolved his betrothal becomes an issue. The youngest sister Rhae could already have been betrothed or married by 220 AC.

Thus I'd assume that Dunk ending up with Daella could be both a romance as well as an arrangement to save her from Aerion, adding more fuel to the feud between Dunk & Egg and Aerion. And I'm also pretty sure that Dunk will end up getting married. His path to the Kingsguard will be crooked as we already know where he will end up. So there road there will be interesting, not the fact that he gets there. It isn't what he wants, so a lot has to happen to get him there. And of course it is much more fun to have Dunk marry a princess than some commoner or noblewoman. Also, just as Daella is right now betrothed to Egg, I'm looking forward to Betha having a crush on Dunk while she doesn't know who Egg actually is.