Which ASOIAF character who is Near Pure Evil is more evil? Tywin Lannister or Lo Bu?

[boltons are sick]

For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains.

One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil and they need to have many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and/or excuses for their actions. Often times Inconsistently Heinous characters can even be morally ambiguous heroes in the stories they are depicted, but they also do some bad things along the way.

Tywin and Lo Bu from ASOIAF are both listed on the Near Pure Evil wiki which means they both come close to being Pure Evil but there are some minor things which prevent them from qualifying as Pure Evil. This is what both of these characters do:

Tywin exterminated two noble Houses, the Reynes and the Tarbecks along with all their servants and peasants which is confirmed to include children and infants, forced his father's mistress to perform a Walk of Shame across Lannisport and then banished her with no clothes or money, pillaged King's Landing with his army after he had deceived Aerys to open the gates which results in many atrocities and murders against the citizens, ordered the murders Elia Martell and her two children, one of which is an infant while the other is a 4-year-old girl and Elia was raped by the Mountain before being killed, ordered a little girl to be gang-raped by an entire garrison of soldiers and even forced his own son Tyrion to participate in the rape, sent out several groups led by the the Mountain, Vargo Hoat and Amory Lorch to burn and pillage across the Riverlands which resulted in the destruction of numerous villages and the deaths of countless peasants with a lot of rape and torture commited by the raiders as well, hangs an innocent innkeeper just because Tyrion was kidnapped in her inn even though the woman had nothing to do with the kidnapping, is behind the Red Wedding which is considered to be a taboo and a violation of guest rights even in Westeros by promising protection to Walder Frey, Roose Bolton and the other participants and the Red Wedding kills thousands of people who accompany Robb Stark, punishes all the soldiers who fled during the Battle of Blackwater by having their knees broken with hammers, so they would be forced to beg on the streets for the rest of their lives and tries to have his own son Tyrion executed.

Lo Bu is the Emperor of Yi Ti who tried to commit total genocide against the Jogos Nhai people, even the women and the children, and he started a campaign against them which successfully killed 1 million people and then planned to kill millions more people until all Jogos Nhai have been exterminated which gives him both an extremely high successful body count and an extremely high attempted body count.

One of the reasons why Tywin can't qualify as Pure Evil is because he loves some members of his family like his father, his wife and his brother Kevan. The other thing which prevents him from qualifying as Pure Evil is his Freudian Excuse of having to watch his House being mocked by everyone because his father was indecisive, having to endure mockery from Aerys Targaryen while he served him and losing his wife in childbirth.However, his Freudian Excuse is not portrayed with too much sympathy by the text, thus, it's considered a minor prevention.

The reason why Lo Bu can't qualify as Pure Evil is because the Jogos Nhai had been raiding Yi Ti for 2000 years and over the centuries had destroyed a dozen cities, a hundred towns and farms and fields beyond counting and had also taken many Yi Ti citizens into slavery and those raids had increased during the reign of Lo Bu's father. There isn't much information about Lo Bu, but from the way the text presents the situation, he wanted to protect his people from future raids and to avenge what was already done to them in the past which is why he decided to commit total genocide on the Jogos Nhai and, thus, he can't qualify as Pure Evil either. However, he goes too far with his actions when he tries to exterminate millions of people, most of whom didn't even participate in the raids against his kingdom and it's not portrayed with too much sympathy by the text, thus, it's considered a minor prevention.

 So, who would you say is more evil between these two Near Pure Evil ASOIAF characters? Tywin Lannister or Lo Bu?

Edited August 9, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Alester Florent]

Oh good lord, not this "Pure Evil" stuff again!

[kissdbyfire]

40 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Oh good lord, not this "Pure Evil" stuff again!

You beat me to it! As Bowie said, “oh no, not again”. 

[Craving Peaches]

Isn't this a more appropriate discussion to have in the TV Tropes forums?

[boltons are sick]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Isn't this a more appropriate discussion to have in the TV Tropes forums?

This is not TV Tropes, but Fandom Wiki.

And it's perfectly appropriate to have it here because this is an ASOIAF forum and right now I am comparing two ASOIAF characters.

Edited August 9, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, boltons are sick said:

And it's perfectly appropriate to have it here because this is an ASOIAF forum and right now I am comparing two ASOIAF characters.

Yes, but you are specifically comparing how well each character fits a certain (external) fandom trope, rather than discussing the characters themselves, so I think it fits better on another site - you will find more people who actually want to discuss it there.

[boltons are sick]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but you are specifically comparing how well each character fits a certain (external) fandom trope, rather than discussing the characters themselves, so I think it fits better on another site - you will find more people who actually want to discuss it there.

Probably, but I am not using the trope's definition specifically when measuring who is more evil. I just mentioned that both of them happen to be listed as Near Pure Evil, listed the a bad things they have done and mentioned the mitigating factors each of them has. This way, someone can decide for themselves who is more evil even if they are completely unfamiliar with the definition of the trope and they don't need to know the definition to make up their minds on who they think is more evil based on the information I wrote.

[Nathan Stark]

Lo Bu isn't a character in the series. Tywin is. So I can't compare a character I've actually read about at length to a random name of a person we've never met.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

There are really only 2 characters that come to mind as pure evil in ASOIAF. And that’d be Euron Greyjoy and Ramsay Bolton.

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, Lord Domeric Bolton said:

There are really only 2 characters that come to mind as pure evil in ASOIAF. And that’d be Euron Greyjoy and Ramsay Bolton.

Username checks out. Get the bastard, Domeric.

And the op seems oddly familiar. I think there was a similar thread ...?

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Username checks out. Get the bastard, Domeric.

And the op seems oddly familiar. I think there was a similar thread ...?

More like several.

Edited August 9, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Alester Florent]

There have been at least seven previous threads started by the OP with the starting-point "here is this trope from the TVTropes/whatever wiki and some characters who the wiki lists as qualifying". Nominally the OP invites comment, but anything that doesn't coincide with the apparently strict definitions (as understood by the OP) for said trope on the relevant wiki is discounted, which doesn't really encourage discussion.

The tropes in question are almost always the "Pure Evil" or its near relatives.

This isn't even the first thread about Lo Bu.

[SaffronLady]

31 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The tropes in question are almost always the "Pure Evil" or its near relatives.

And apparently, asides the evil obsession, the OP also sympathizes with (I won't say "like" just yet) Cersei. Maybe this is why he tries to find more and more evil characters within the 'verse to get flak off Cersei.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

And apparently, asides the evil obsession, the OP also sympathizes with (I won't say "like" just yet) Cersei. Maybe this is why he tries to find more and more evil characters within the 'verse to get flak off Cersei.

Yes. I'm having flashbacks now...

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Lo Bu isn't a character in the series.

I looked him up in the wiki as I've never heard of him.

[Craving Peaches]

10 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And apparently, asides the evil obsession, the OP also sympathizes with (I won't say "like" just yet) Cersei. Maybe this is why he tries to find more and more evil characters within the 'verse to get flak off Cersei.

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes. I'm having flashbacks now...

Remember guys, it was A-Okay for Cersei to murder all those people because she wanted to cover up her other crimes (treason, incest, fraud). I will shorty be using this excuse when I go to trial for murder because someone found out about my pyramid scheme and I had to cover it up. Wish me luck! 

[boltons are sick]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Remember guys, it was A-Okay for Cersei to murder all those people because she wanted to cover up her other crimes (treason, incest, fraud). I will shorty be using this excuse when I go to trial for murder because someone found out about my pyramid scheme and I had to cover it up. Wish me luck! 

No, it's only ok when the murders are commited by characters you like.

 

Which is why apparently it's ok when Robb Stark goes on a pillaging campaign in the Westerlands and kills way more innocent people than Cersei ever does.

 

It's also ok when Tyrion arms a band of wildlings and specifically incites them to pillage the Vale with him thinking in delight about how the Vale is going to be reduced to ash which also kills way more people than Cersei ever does.

 

It's also ok when Daenerys tortures little girls in front of their fathers and crucifies random 163 people without caring if they are actually innocent or guilty.

 

But when Cersei kills someone who has raped her for years and who would have killed her and her entire family if he caught her cheating even though he himself also cheats on her and that's her only option to save her children, then that's the most evil and malicious act imaginable not only in the entire human history but also in the history of the whole cosmos.

 

I completely agree with this and I don't think it's a double standard.

Edited August 10, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

No, it's only ok when the murders are commited by characters you like.

None of the characters I like have committed murder so...?

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

Which is why apparently it's ok when Robb Stark goes on a pillaging campaign in the Westerlands and kills way more innocent people than Cersei ever does.

I should point out here that Cersei not only caused the death of Robb Stark's father, sparking the campaign of vengeance in the first place, she also caused the deaths of Ned Stark's retinue in all the scheming that led up to it. Of course, Houses Cassel and Poole would likely only protest and seethe if Robb chooses to do nothing, but saying that Robb's actions are "ok" just because he is liked by fans is quite rash. His actions are understandable because that is what is expected of him as Lord of Winterfell and the manner of his father's death, just like how you present Cersei's actions as understandable.

Or I suppose you would rather Robb assassinate Cersei on a lone wolf mission to King's Landing to secure his vengeance?

[kissdbyfire]

52 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I should point out here that Cersei not only caused the death of Robb Stark's father, sparking the campaign of vengeance in the first place, she also caused the deaths of Ned Stark's retinue in all the scheming that led up to it. Of course, Houses Cassel and Poole would likely only protest and seethe if Robb chooses to do nothing, but saying that Robb's actions are "ok" just because he is liked by fans is quite rash. His actions are understandable because that is what is expected of him as Lord of Winterfell and the manner of his father's death, just like how you present Cersei's actions as understandable.

Or I suppose you would rather Robb assassinate Cersei on a lone wolf mission to King's Landing to secure his vengeance?

All of this. And even if we chalk it all up to “that’s just how the game of thrones is played”, I’d like to add that Cersei not only became a murderer at ripe old age of 12 or whatever, but also ordered the murder of many babies and infants, mostly out of spite. 
What a great gal she is! /s