Rasmay and Jon, a comparison

[Alester Florent]

Positive aspects from Jon include that he helped Sam at Castle Black, that he saved Lord Mormont from the wights, and that he reads the news well. On the other hand, though, he is a murderer (Janos Slynt), a deserter (after Ned's arrest), a turncloak (twice), an oathbreaker (Ygritte), a pervert (Ygritte again; he also looks at Val lustfully), a warg and skinchanger, he tries to kill Mance under a flag of truce, he takes part in the affairs of the realm by helping Stannis and by declaring war on the Boltons, and overall destroyed the Watch completely until Bowen Marsh and co. saved the day.

Ramsay, on the other hand, saves the lives of Bran and Rickon by sacrificing the miller's boys in their place, undermines Theon's invasion from within, eventually liberating Winterfell from the ironborn, and punishes Theon for his treachery afterwards. He takes in the refugees from Winterfell after it is burned, and takes good care of his dogs. He seems to care very much about his men, being very angry when one of them is killed. He makes an effort to acquire the Hornwood lands for his father rather than letting them fall into the hands of the traitor cannibal Manderlys. Unlike Jon, his services to the realm are recognised and he is legitimised. He gets an awful lot of hate. Sure, he's not exactly a saint, but how much of the hate is just Stark-lovers looking for someone to blame? House Bolton is stronger than ever thanks to Ramsay. The Watch has never been weaker thanks to Jon.

[kissdbyfire]

All of what you said, and there's the fact that Ramram loves animals more than Jon (a big plus in my book) since he has several pets and Jon only has one. 

[Alester Florent]

That's a good point. The more pets you have, the better person you are. It is known.

This is yet another reason why Sansa and Arya are so awful: they don't have any pets. Even Joffrey had a dog.

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah! Those awful & immature girls, can't even be trusted to keep a pet - one dead and one lost. But what can you expect? They're both Starks! *SMH*

[csuszka1948]

Honestly, it's telling that this post is much better and convincing than most of the Stark hate.

 

Regardless, I feel GRRM is intentionally develops Jon as someone who breaks or will break each and every one of the first part of his Night's Watch oaths (leaving his post, winning no crowns, fathering no children), because doing the right thing is more important than keeping true to your oaths.

Ramsay - just like Jon - tends to abandon the norms of society, the difference is that he is doing it for malicious reasons, to rise higher or to torture others. He is Jon's dark mirror, so it's fitting that they will have some sort of confrontation in the future.

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

Also, Ramsay is of completely sound mind, while as we all know, Jon is rapidly loosing his grip on reality. He is a ticking time bomb of psychosis just waiting to blow. That little stunt he pulled in the Shield Hall was just the beginning. I dread to think what could have happened had Bowen Marsh not intervened. Someone could have been seriously injured or even killed! We all saw what Jon did to Emmett and Ser Alister, and that was before he was so far off the deep end.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[csuszka1948]

48 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

That's a good point. The more pets you have, the better person you are. It is known.

This is yet another reason why Sansa and Arya are so awful: they don't have any pets. Even Joffrey had a dog.

 

 

 

Yes, that's why I feel Bran has the best chances to turn out right among the Starklings.

He even has a human pet, just like Ramsay did. 

 

It's notable that GRRM talked about a 'bitter strife' between Jon and Bran in his original outline. Presumably, this is Jon joining the Others but Bran refusing to follow him, standing his ground.

Edited August 18, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

Also, Ramsay graciously rehabilitates Theon, whereas Jon the Bloodthirsty just likes to kill people for minor offences. I remember I was reading the book and Jon thought about how good it would feel to stick a sword into Janos, and then promptly did so. I brushed it off at the time but in hindsight that clearly indicated Jon's control of himself was slipping. Compare this to Ramsay, who has no problem reigning in his impulses (probably because he doesn't have any, a good trait he inherited from his father, meanwhile Jon only inherited Ned's streak of treachery).

Edited August 18, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[csuszka1948]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, Ramsay graciously rehabilitates Theon, whereas Jon the Bloodthirsty just likes to kill people for minor offences.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it's incredibly gracious and progressive of Ramsay that he let Theon restart his life from scratch using a new identity.

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Compare this to Ramsay, who has no problem reigning in his impulses (probably because he doesn't have any, a good trait he inherited from his father, meanwhile Jon only inherited Ned's streak of treachery).

 

Jon's father is Rhaegar, so this streak of treachery is clearly not inherited, but learned.

Roose's tutoring for Ramsay ('a peaceful land, a quiet people') turned out much better for him than Ned's tutoring for Robb (resulting in wartorn Northern lands and dead people) and Jon (resulting in a Watch in the break of extinction before Bowen saved it).

Edited August 18, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Jon's father is Rhaegar

Actually, Jon is the product of incest between Brandon and Lyanna.

[csuszka1948]

I think it's also important to compare the background and the actual accomplishments of Ramsay and Jon.

Ramsay is the classical 'rags to riches' success story. He was raised by his poor mother, barely receiving any child maintainance costs from his father, who only gotten invested in him after Domeric's unfortunate passing. Despite his poor upbringing, he managed to secure the Hornwood lands.

His success poked the eyes of the tyrannical Stark overlords, so they have tried to have him killed on trumped-up charges, and only the willing sacrifice of one of his loyal friends saved him from this fate. Despite this, he held no anger in his heart towards the Stark children, and persuaded Theon to give up searching after them - instead, he punished the true instigators of his arrest (Ser Rodrik and Master Luwin) and took back the capital of the North from the Ironborn. All he did, he accomplished himself.

After making sure that Theon cannot continue his whoring ways, he started to re-educate him and was willing to give him a new identity. Theon eagerly accepted it and seeing the error of his previous ways, he immediately asked to serve under him, starting with helping Ramsay to retake Moat Cailin and confirming the identity of his bride. After Jon has sent a known oathbreaker and 6 barbarian spearwives to kidnap Reek and his bride, Ramsay almost immediately set out to rescue them from the clutches of their captors and - as a show of mercifulness - gave Jon one more chance to return them peacefully. 

 

In contrast, Jon is a typical example of 'rich dad's spoiled kid'. Despite being a bastard, he was raised in Winterfell in comfort along with his trueborn siblings and has been gifted a super-special direwolf, but failed to appreciate it, expecting Catelyn to treat him - a clear danger to her son's inheritance (something that Cat quickly recognized) - as her own son. It quickly became clear to him that with his lack of talent he cannot satisfy his ambitions anywhere but the Night's Watch, because even he is better than a horde of thieves and rapists.

He was incredibly entitled and arrogant when he arrived, and it took a long time for him to learn that he must treat his peers better if he wants to advance. Despite this, his new 'humbled' attitude was just a play to gain support (Melisandre, who is skilled in manipulation quickly notices it): he still secretly looks down and harbors resentment towards other Watchmen, and he immediately starts to take revenge on them once he becomes Lord Commander by executing them for minor 'offenses', sending them out on suicide missions to die in ranging (Thorne) or 'saving' wildlings from Hardhome. By the end of the ADWD, he has gotten incredibly close to his mission of eliminating the Watch, just Bowen's brave intervention saved it.

We also have to notice that he only rose so high because he was a Stark and he had a direwolf. Jeor Mormont took him as his personal steward because he was Ned's son, he was chosen by Quorin to the ranging and managed to kill him due the Ghost, and Sam's manipulation led to his election as Lord Commander. All his 'accomplishments' were gifted to him or were built on the efforts of other people.

Finally, his Stark ancestry and 'friends in high spaces' (Master Aemon Targaryen) let him to get off the hook for his real crimes. His desertion or double turncloaking wasn't punished at all. After the attack on Ser Allister, there was a chance he is going to get seriously punished, so the Others - who have long considered recruiting him as their future agent - have sent a (sacrificial) wight for Jon to kill and earn the gratitude of the Lord Commander. 

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

All of what you said, and there's the fact that Ramram loves animals more than Jon (a big plus in my book) since he has several pets and Jon only has one. 

He has two!  Ghost and Mormont's raven.  Also, he is not mean to the garrons.    harrump! 

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I remember I was reading the book and Jon thought about how good it would feel to stick a sword into Janos, and then promptly did so.

Remember when Sansa was wishing someone would strike Janos's head off?  She warged Jon!  She warged him from the Vale and he chopped off Janos's ugly mug.  It was not his fault. 

[Alester Florent]

28 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Remember when Sansa was wishing someone would strike Janos's head off?  She warged Jon!  She warged him from the Vale and he chopped off Janos's ugly mug.  It was not his fault. 

What are you, some kind of Stark apologist?

[LongRider]

16 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

What are you, some kind of Stark apologist?

This thread is a Ramsay / Jon comparison!  I'm comparing them.  Can I help it if Jon smarter, fitter, more educated, from a better family and cute as bug while Ramsay is none of those things!   Open your eyes man and see the truth!  Jon is superior in every way, it's not his fault he is surrounded by morons with the IQ of pomegranates, now is it.   Good day sir, I said good day!   Pirouettes on my heel and flounces out.   

Edited August 19, 2023 by LongRider

[SeanF]

David Benioff thought Ramsay was a “badass”, while everyone made fun of Jon’s height and penis size.  That tells you all you need to know about either man.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

David Benioff thought Ramsay was a “badass”

I always wondered why Ramsay was portrayed oddly sympathetically in the show. Admittedly I have only seen up to Season 4, but Ramsay was almost coming off as comic relief in some parts. There was this one bit where it cut from Theon to Ramsay cutting and eating sausage in a particularly passive-aggressive manner. I am not expert in subtext but was this really the sort of thing to joke about?

[Alester Florent]

55 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I always wondered why Ramsay was portrayed oddly sympathetically in the show. Admittedly I have only seen up to Season 4, but Ramsay was almost coming off as comic relief in some parts. There was this one bit where it cut from Theon to Ramsay cutting and eating sausage in a particularly passive-aggressive manner. I am not expert in subtext but was this really the sort of thing to joke about?

I didn't mind that scene: the juxtaposition of Theon's agony and Ramsay's fooling around helped underscore the horror for me, rather than undercut it. (And to be fair, I did find that scene quite funny,in a horrible kind of way. The gif of Ramsay waggling the sausage still makes me chuckle when I see it.)

[Alester Florent]

59 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I always wondered why Ramsay was portrayed oddly sympathetically in the show. 

Back on topic, because he's the true hero of the North! D&D obviously saw what a lot of fans can't. 

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

because he's the true hero of the North!

Ramsay doesn't let his status as a bastard define his life and is rewarded by being legitimised. Jon, meanwhile, can't get over it and in doing so conforms to every negative stereotype about bastards.