Sphinxes = Stranglers: Part 2 (updated)

[Sandy Clegg]

This is Part Two of my 'Sphinxes = Stranglers' exploration. Part one is here.

 

The word for sphinx originally meant 'strangler', as I discussed in part one. I've already discussed mentions of strangling in the books at length there, so here I'll look at the next best thing to strangling:

Choking & Chokers

 Let's look at some possible candidates for choking/strangling connections which might be useful in building our 'sphinx' imagery.

1. Choking & laughter.

Quote

"They say it grows so cold up here in winter that a man's laughter freezes in his throat and chokes him to death," Ned said evenly. "Perhaps that is why the Starks have so little humor." - AGOT Edward I

So humour chokes, apparently. In fact, not long after, it nearly gets Renly:

Quote

Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. "Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes." - AGOT, Edward II

This could be a possible allusion the the 'playfulness' of the sphinx. Tyrion is one of our more 'jokey' characters as well as a strong 'sphinx' candidate. And Alleras, too, is famed for her 'secret smiles' ("The Sphinx was always smiling, as if he knew some secret jape".)

We are shown that Tyrion can cause one to choke even with his japes. Jeor Mormont is lucky not to need the Heimlich manoeuvre here:

Quote

Tyrion looked pointedly at his right hand. "Why, I have steel in my hand, Ser Alliser, although it appears to be a crab fork. Shall we duel?" He hopped up on his chair and began poking at Thorne's chest with the tiny fork. Roars of laughter filled the tower room. Bits of crab flew from the Lord Commander's mouth as he began to gasp and choke. - AGOT, Tyrion III

So, laughter and choking - sphinx fodder possibly. I think this may have a deeper meta connection, too, as I've always kind of believed that the books themselves are the riddle, and pinpointing instances of GRRM's weird (and often filthy) sense of humour buried in the text is one of the many keys to solving the mysteries within. This goes back to my 'smiles = clue signifiers' idea, which goes back to Gared's 'hint of a smile' in the prologue. More of a thematic bonus, though, perhaps.

2. Chokers as neck ornamentation.

Maester Luwin's chain is described as a humble choker, in contrast to Pycelle's not inconsiderable bling:

Quote

 His maester's collar was no simple metal choker such as Luwin wore, but two dozen heavy chains wound together into a ponderous metal necklace that covered him from throat to breast. - AGOT, Edward IV

One of our key sphinx characteristics is to be made up of many parts. And so Aemon tells Jon:

Quote

A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well.            - AGOT, Jon V

Again, more of a thematic link to the idea that 'different kinds of learning' are required. To be a maester - to to solve a sphinx's riddles? Note that Tyrion is also a very 'chain-themed' character and has a great deal of 'learning' from books, too. As does Marwyn the Mage, about whom we learn:

Quote

" "Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?"

"A chain so tight it was like to choke him, Iron Lord, with links of many metals." - AGOT, Daenerys VII

Duelling chokers / duelling sphinxes?

A Clash of Kings' prologue features two symbolic chokers. Melisandre has her own choker around her neck in the form of jewellery:

Quote

As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath. Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester's chain, ornamented with a single great ruby. - AGOT, Prologue

This choker is more blood-themed, and the ruby within in is what will protect her from Cressen's own choker - the poison known as the Strangler. We know how this turns out:

Quote

"He does have power here, my lord," the woman said. "And fire cleanses." At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying her, denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god. And the cowbells peeled in his antlers, singing fool, fool, fool while the red woman looked down on him in pity, the candle flames dancing in her red red eyes. - ACOK, Prologue

Duelling stranglers indeed. And we should note that as Cressen dies, his last image is of Patchface 'the fool' ringing his bells and the 'fiery woman' before him. This brings us full circle to the prologue's opening, with Cressen caught between two gargoyles, the Hellhound and the Wyvern.

Quote

The maester stood on the windswept balcony outside his chambers. It was here the ravens came, after long flight. Their droppings speckled the gargoyles that rose twelve feet tall on either side of him, a hellhound and a wyvern, two of the thousand that brooded over the walls of the ancient fortress. When first he came to Dragonstone, the army of stone grotesques had made him uneasy, but as the years passed he had grown used to them. Now he thought of them as old friends. The three of them watched the sky together with foreboding. - ACOK, Prologue

Metaphorical sphinx guards on either side of him - wolf and dragon / Jon and Daenerys / fool and fire. (Jon as a metaphorical 'fool' is one of my favourite motifs as I've said before: 'You know nothing Jon Snow' is such a strong recurring theme for him.)

3. Self-choking.

The Onion Knight, Davos, who wears his own finger-bones around his neck, could be seen as a symbolic 'self-choker'. Compared to a maester, Davos is as unlearned as it comes - although he does have street smarts to make up for it. He does, however, begin his own journey of study as he learns his letters. So we could even see his finger-bones as a primitive echo of a master's chain.

Where is the sphinx symbolism, though? Well, many of his chapters can be read through a cryptic lens, although he's hardly alone in that regard. More importantly, he is one of the more moral figures in the books, or at least he is when contrasted with Melisandre. He is broadly a supporter of ideals such as 'mercy' and 'upholding the sanctity of life', as we see when he saves Edric Storm  from the red woman's fires. Sure, he's no saint - but of all the characters in ASOIAF  ..... Davos is the guy you'd definitely want in the room to add his voice if your fate was being decided:

Quote

Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"Everything," said Davos, softly. - ASOS, Davos V

Faced with riddles of this nature, Davos does not flinch. He already has his fingers around his throat, and fears no retribution from riddlers. Perhaps just as Melisandre's choker gives her inner fortitude, so does Davos's own, more homegrown, 'choker':

Quote

Davos closed his stubby hand around the pouch that held his fingerbones, and mouthed a silent prayer for luck.

His inner belief comes from his own assuredness in knowing basic right from wrong. His own fingers, his own fate.

If Davos is at one end of this moral spectrum, then surely Lady Stoneheart is at the other. A ghoulish figure of revenge and retribution, she is the other of our metaphorical 'self-chokers' in ASOIAF, as we see here:

Quote

The thing that had been Catelyn Stark took hold of her throat again, fingers pinching at the ghastly long slash in her neck, and choked out more sounds. "Words are wind, she says," the northman told Brienne. "She says that you must prove your faith." - AFFC, Brienne VIII

And, like a sphinx, she poses Brienne a riddle, albeit a very simple one. 

Quote

Lady Catelyn's fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose." - AFFC, Brienne VIII

Brienne would possibly rather have stumbled across Davos in that forest. Actually, just before this scene we get what I would call a premonition of sorts, in this moment:

Quote

The next time she woke, Jeyne was holding a cup of hot soup to her lips. Onion broth, Brienne thought. She drank as much of it as she could, until a bit of carrot caught in her throat and made her choke. Coughing was agony. "Easy," the girl said. AFFC, Brienne VIII

Instead of onion, she gets carrot, then chokes. Well, if Davos can be the onion, why not Stoneheart the carrot? Carrots can come in orange and white varieties among others. So if we're breaking down symbols as foreshadowing then Catelyn, as a redhead and a corpse, might well fit the carrot motif - an orange vegetable, dug up from the ground like a corpse, turning to a pale white one? Ok, this the bit where you say I'm crazy. But consider this. Here's a carrot/Stoneheart/Arya connection, which I believe is also foreshadowing, back in A Clash of Kings:

Quote

 A host of piglets rooted about three huge sows in the sty. Nearby, a small girl pulled carrots from a garden, naked in the rain, while two women tied a pig for slaughter. The animal's squeals were high and horrible, almost human in their distress. - ACOK, Jon III

A naked girl, pulling carrots from a garden. Seems fairly innocuous right? It's not as if Jon is in the House of the Undying seeing visions here.

However, in ASOS early on we get this scene:

Quote

She was grubbing for vegetables in a dead man's garden when she heard the singing.

Arya stiffened, still as stone, listening, the three stringy carrots in her hand suddenly forgotten - ASOS, Arya II

She's clearly clothed here, of course. But we haven't finished yet. Let's see if we can marry this image up with Arya's 'wolf dream' of her, as Nymeria, pulling her dead mother to the river bank:

Quote

 She sniffed the air again. There it was, and now she saw it too, something pale and white drifting down the river, turning where it brushed against a snag. The reeds bowed down before it.

She splashed noisily through the shallows and threw herself into the deeper water, her legs churning. The current was strong but she was stronger. She swam, following her nose. The river smells were rich and wet, but those were not the smells that pulled her. She paddled after the sharp red whisper of cold blood, the sweet cloying stench of death. She chased them as she had often chased a red deer through the trees, and in the end she ran them down, and her jaw closed around a pale white arm. She shook it to make it move, but there was only death and blood in her mouth. By now she was tiring, and it was all she could do to pull the body back to shore. As she dragged it up the muddy bank, one of her little brothers came prowling, his tongue lolling from his mouth. She had to snarl to drive him off, or else he would have fed. Only then did she stop to shake the water from her fur. The white thing lay facedown in the mud, her dead flesh wrinkled and pale, cold blood trickling from her throat. Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us. - ASOS, Arya XII

Arya has slipped her skin here in this wolf dream, seeing through Nymeria's eyes and experiencing all Nymeria experiences. She is therefore symbolically naked - lacking not just her clothes but her entire body. You can't get more naked than that. And as she exits the river, drenched, and pulls her mother through the mud, we are reminded of the naked girl in the rain, 'pulling carrots' from the garden. 

So that Brienne quote again: 'Onion broth, Brienne thought. She drank as much of it as she could, until a bit of carrot caught in her throat and made her choke.'

We're getting hints of Stoneheart here, I think. The two 'self-chokers' are both referenced here, and the one representing leniency and mercy turns out to be the wrong conclusion. It's 'carrots': vengeance, then a riddle, then choking.

More chokey thoughts when I can find time to go through references in A Dance With Dragons  

---- EDIT: ADDITIONAL IDEAS, DECEMBER 2023 ---

Persimmon: The Choke Fruit

This came to me while I was researching food-related etymology. It seems the persimmon derives its name from a Native American (Powhatan) word related to the dry, choking quality of the unripe persimmon. In short, it is also known as the choke fruit.

The word persimmon is actually a derivative of a Powhatan term, putchamin (alternative spellings pasiminan, pessamin) meaning “a dry fruit” or “choke fruit”.  Powhatan is an extinct Algonquian language originating from a coastal region of the eastern United States ...

 https://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/lifestyle-file/rural-people-a-issues/gardening/persimmons

'Choke fruit' as a slang name for persimmon seems to be fairly well-known in some parts of the USA, it seems. So this 'choking' aspect of persimmons brings us closer to getting an overall picture of symbolic stranglers in the books, and the characters they seem to be associated with. For the persimmon, it obviously pertains to Daenerys above all. Some notable mentions from her chapters here:

1. ACOK, Daenerys III, she sends "the traditional persimmon to the Opener of the Door" ... and sphinxes (the original stranglers) are of course doorway guardians.
2. "She was breaking her fast on a bowl of cold shrimp-and-persimmon soup when Irri brought her a Qartheen gown ..." - ACOK, Daenerys V. Here we have two strangler-related food items in one soup dish. This is because shrimp take their word origin from an old English word meaning 'to shrivel/contract' (as stranglers, sphinxes, sphincters etc. are prone to do): "The term Shrimp originated around the 14th century from the Middle English shrimpe meaning to contract or wrinkle. https://british-american-dictionary.com/bad-words/shrimp-uk/"
3. Finally, Quaithe, Dany's own bespoke riddler, appears beneath the choke fruit tree: "A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. "Quaithe? Am I dreaming?" She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. "I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor."

Edited December 18, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[sweetsunray]

Strangulation is a symbol for Odin, who hanged himself from the world tree to be able to read the runes (prophesy). And this is linked to greenseeing in the series:

• Beric was hanged
• Brandon Stark was choked, but stands in most likely for Brandon the Builder Stark

Either someone is either marked as one-eyed or hanged/strangled/choked.

Notice Alleras dress: green, doeskin, and a brigandine. Alleras's clothes can be compared to Meera Reed's and Arya's.

• Meera: lambskin breeches, sleeveless jerkin armored with bronze scales
• Arya in the RL after Acorn Hall: breeches, brown doeskin jerkin studded with iron
• Alleras: doeskin breeches and green cloth sleeveless "jerkin" studded with iron (a brigandine), which is worn for armor

All three transcend or fall outside of traditional dualistic gender roles, with Alleras possibly even being a trans character.

So, Alleras stands for a green magic related person who had a "sphinx" role in the far past. The entrance of the Citadel has two green sphinxes as "gatekeepers", one male, one female. Alleras is both.

When Sam arrives at Oldtown the city is so fogged up that he can only make out the beacon of the Hightower. Fogged up implies that the present has covered up or hides the true past.

If we imagine the Citadel at least before the Andal invasion we must strip off the outer layers of the construction to the heart of it. First we see those two green sphinx statues at the gates, along with Scribe's Hearth and book shops. We can strip them away. The old FM world and Dawn age did not have scribes or books. Behind those "new/modern" gates we have King Daeron I's statue and the septry before arriving at the Seneschal's court. We can strip those away as well.

At the lobby of the Seneschal's court we first meet Lorcas, an acolyte in a maester robe (without chain), who marks down names of visitors with a quill. He is at some point referred to as "gatekeeper". So, this indicates that the location of the Seneschal's court are older gates, truer gates than the prior ones. But it is still not correct, because this maester writes with a quill. 

Sam has to wait in the lobby for hours on a bench. While he does he notes that the "fog is thinning" and a "pale sun" is starting to get through. In other words, we are getting closer to a reveal of how it was in the past. Sam drowses off and "wakes" abruptly. This is another reference to going further back in time, behind the fog, and now getting to a deeper truth. That's when Alleras addresses him. They ask him why the Night's Watch has come to the Citadel, and introduces themselves as Alleras, also called the Sphinx by others. The Sphinx is also a gatekeeper in mythology. So, through Alleras, Sam meets a representative of the true gatekeeper of the Citadel of the past. Someone "green" who knows who they are via supernatural means.

Notice that both Lorcas the false gatekeeper and Alleras are acolytes. The false one dresses in maester robes, while Alleras in the green and brown breeches and brigandine. The Sphinx therefore predates maesters or scholars. It is the sphinx who takes Sam to a wizard watching the goings-on all over the world via magical means (green and black glass candles) and with which they can communicate. The glass candles do similar stuff as weirwoods and ravens do. The glass candles are from Old Valyria, so they were not the actual means of "knowing things" during the Age of Heroes or Dawn era. It were weirwood trees and greenseers. And well the building with the wizard (Archmaester Marwyn) was built around a yard with an ancient weirwood and a lot of black ravens. So, the wizard in olden days would have been a greenseer.

Before the Sphinx takes Sam to the wizard (aka the tree), they ask Sam what they want with Archmaester Theobald (the current Seneschal). It is not confirmed what Theobald is archmaester of, but his "mask" is "lead". We do not have confirmation what "lead" stands for, but if I were to make a reasonable guess, that would be alchemy. Alchemists searched for a method to turn lead into gold. Tyrion alludes to the maesters having overtaken the Alchemists when he visits that guild in King's Landing to look at the wildfire stash. I think we need to check what metal a "penny" is made of, because that is what the Sphinx tells Sam he needs to give to the gatekeeper of this proposed Alchemist hayday, and they add that for "silver" Lorcase would carry Sam on his back to the lead Archmaester himself. But the green sphinx shortcuts the Alchemist time to the oldest part of the Citadel, passed another gate.

So, as the gates go, the outer gates represent the modern Maesters (with chains) and Citadel. The middle gates, older but not original, represent the hayday of the Alchemists (without chains), who write names (runes) and would consider it a miracle if they could turn a penny into silver. The Isle of Ravens lies behind a wooden gate and is covered with moss. It therefore represents the days of origin: the green weirwood days with ravens.

Aside from the wizard we also have Archmaester Walgrave beneath the White Rookery of the white ravens. But in olden days, there wouldn't be a rookery either. What does Walgrave want to happen to his body when he dies? He wants his body to serve as food for the white ravens. And what is a sphinx supposed to do when someone fails to answer their riddle in traditional mythology? They eat that person. So, the white ravens are being aligned to the role of the sphinx as well.

The true sphinx therefore imo was a greenseer who people could come to for testing and training. This sphinx also had "oracle" white ravens who would only fly off upon the change of seasons.

'The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler" then can be translated as "They know who you are and where you come from without introduction. They can see without human eyes, appear in your dream and speak to you without being there. They can tell when a new season is upon us. They will eat you when you're dead. Who or what are they?"

Edited September 2, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sweetsunray]

We can even go even more precise with the riddle

"They guard a gate. They see, hear and talk. They are green. They are black. They are frozen fire. They predict that winter is coming. Who or what are they?" Brandon the Builder Stark.

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

We can even go even more precise with the riddle

I was thinking that, for the average reader, the one riddle most are likely to recall is the one that goes "What goes on four legs in the morning, two legs at midday and three in the evening?" To which the answer in ASOIAF terms is more likely to be: a warg (or skinchanger of other animals). Which I guess is connected to greenseeing.

• Two legs = man.
• Four legs = beast.
• Three legs = three feet (we already know that Bran compares skinchanging to 'a foot entering a boot').

So three legs (or feet) would seem to be an apt metaphor for the skinchanger's 'evening' - or their second life in death merged permanently as human/animal. Halfway between man and beast. And sphinxes as a blend of beast and man is anyway a perfectly good warg symbol.

[sweetsunray]

True, and adding the white ravens as carrion eaters and telling the season change also works. There's only one family that accurately predicts the season: Starks with "Winter is coming" associated with skinchanging predatory wolves.

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I was thinking that, for the average reader, the one riddle most are likely to recall is the one that goes "What goes on four legs in the morning, two legs at midday and three in the evening?" To which the answer in ASOIAF terms is more likely to be: a warg (or skinchanger of other animals). Which I guess is connected to greenseeing.

• Two legs = man.
• Four legs = beast.
• Three legs = three feet (we already know that Bran compares skinchanging to 'a foot entering a boot').

So three legs (or feet) would seem to be an apt metaphor for the skinchanger's 'evening' - or their second life in death merged permanently as human/animal. Halfway between man and beast. And sphinxes as a blend of beast and man is anyway a perfectly good warg symbol.

The famous sphinx riddle to Oedipus actually includes "speaks with one voice". So someone who can speak and be man, beast and skinchanger.

[Landis]

Another possible self-choker is Jaime Lannister, whose right hand is hung about his neck after it is cut off by Zollo. This said, the way the language is used might also suggest that this hand choking him is actually the responsibility forced on him by his family, and that leads to some interesting phrasing.

Quote

Can it be? They took my sword hand. Was that all I was, a sword hand? Gods be good, is it true? 

The wench had the right of it. He could not die. Cersei was waiting for him. She would have need of him. And Tyrion, his little brother, who loved him for a lie. And his enemies were waiting too; the Young Wolf who had beaten him in the Whispering Wood and killed his men around him, Edmure Tully who had kept him in darkness and chains, these Brave Companions. 

When morning came, he made himself eat. They fed him a mush of oats, horse food, but he forced down every spoon. He ate again at evenfall, and the next day. Live, he told himself harshly, when the mush was like to gag him, live for Cersei, live for Tyrion. Live for vengeance. A Lannister always pays his debts. His missing hand throbbed and burned and stank. When I reach King's Landing I'll have a new hand forged, a golden hand, and one day I'll use it to rip out Vargo Hoat's throat. 

Rather literally, he is choking on the responsibility he has to stay alive and protect his family, even as he is realizing with horror that this is the only thing they love him for, the sword hand that now hangs from his own throat, the stink of which he chokes on as he rides, his body strapped to Brienne’s (probably worth looking at that as well, juxtaposing the sphinxery of Jaime/Cersei with that of Jaime/Brienne). He decides in this moment that he will not remain the sword hand, but become a strangler, that he will replace his hand with a golden one with which to tear out the throats of his enemies. But the way he speaks of Cersei and Tyrion, there is the subtle implication that they are targets of vengeance, because they are implicated in this reduction of his value to a single thing, when, in his own mind, he thought himself more.

Jaime’s identity has been silenced, in effect, something that is paralleled with the ways he characterizes his enemies: Robb, who beat him in the Whispering Wood (a whisper as achieved through the constricting of the throat, and literally an undermining of his identity as a military man); Edmure, further restraining his ability to express this form of selfhood by keeping him in chains; and finally, Hoat, who took what remained.
 

His throat has been pressed by all too many, and Brienne, seeing that he wishes to give in to the strangulation, demands that he live so that he not die with the identity of a “craven”. The reader is encouraged by overall context to rationalize this as surviving to return to his family and do his duty to them, that this would be bravery, even though the reality is that he can no longer perform the duty his family expects of him — only the duty others expect of his family: A Lannister always pays his debts. And whether he notices it or not, he is already in this moment suggesting that there are debts owed between the Lannister siblings that he appears to be preparing to pay in kind: a hand for a hand, a throat for a throat.

[Seams]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:46 AM, sweetsunray said:

I think we need to check what metal a "penny" is made of, because that is what the Sphinx tells Sam he needs to give to the gatekeeper of this proposed Alchemist hayday, and they add that for "silver" Lorcase would carry Sam on his back to the lead Archmaester himself.

This suggests a parallel to me. 

When Brienne is setting out again on her quest, two of the first people she encounters are Ser Illifer the Penniless and Ser Creighton Longbough. I bet these figures are gatekeepers in her arc, similar to the gatekeepers you describe in Sam's arc. Implied in his name, Ser Illifer also needs a coin. They feed her trout, which is probably a symbol of Tully flesh, perhaps echoing the idea of the white ravens eating Walgrave. When they reach an inn, Brienne uses some of the coins that Jaime gave her to pay for a room for the night for Ser Illifer and Ser Creighton. This could represent the coin required by Ser Illifer and signals that Brienne is now allowed to "enter" her quest in earnest.

For what it's worth, I think the word "serpent" is hidden in Ser Illifer's name. So he may make a good parallel for Alleras / Sarella, who is a Sand Snake.

I wonder whether this tells us something about the function of Penny in Tyrion's arc. Tyrion doesn't pay the gatekeeper known as the Widow of the Waterfront, but Ser Jorah does. After he gives her some gloves, Penny attacks Tyrion, blaming him for her brother's death. Since the Penny is "paid" to Tyrion, is he the gatekeeper? The Dwarf's Penny is the name given to the tax on prostitution that Tyrion institutes to raise revenue when he is the acting Hand. He then becomes the Master of Coin. Seems like Tyrion is getting a lot of pennies. Maybe he gets to open a lot of gates. 

Brienne's quest takes several paths, but it eventually leads to her being choked. 

Tyrion chokes Shae, who is a prostitute. (Connecting her to the motif with the Dwarf's Penny.) 

In the quests of Brienne and Tyrion, I wonder whether we are seeing people traveling in opposite directions? 

There is a lot of Odysseus imagery in Tyrion's journey. I haven't read it, but I understand that Brienne's journey borrows a lot of elements from Dante's Inferno. 

So where does Sam's journey fit in? 

Or here's another puzzle, since we are sorting out riddles and riddlers. 

What if Tyrion's journey isn't his journey at all. He is a gatekeeper, which is why he has all of those pennies. 

What if the arc that appears to be Tyrion's journey is actually Ser Jorah's journey? He seems like a sidekick throughout the series because he doesn't get a POV and because he is in the shadow of Dany, who seems so important. But I think we overlook his magic and his centrality to some of the events. 

Sam Tarly runs out of coins as he makes his way to the Citadel. He has to trade books to pay for his passage but he reassures himself that the books will eventually reach their intended destination at the Citadel because the captain of the ship will sell them there. 

Ser Jorah gives Dany books as a wedding gift. 

Of course, Tyrion gives Joffrey a book as a groom's gift. 

The Starks (presumably Ned) loan Tyrion some books to read during his trip to Castle Black. He finds more books of interest in the Night's Watch library. 

Euron brings a page from a lost text to his uncle Rodrik the Reader. 

So it would seem that some gatekeepers are paid with books. But are those gatekeepers all sphinxes, or are there different kinds of gatekeepers, some paid with pennies and others with books?

Maybe payment with a book is a way to avoid being choked? 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Seams

[Seams]

12 hours ago, Landis said:

Another possible self-choker is Jaime Lannister, whose right hand is hung about his neck after it is cut off by Zollo.

Very nice catch. 

Jaime designs his own gold hand, specifying to the smith how he wants it made. Once it is strapped on, he says that it is only good for holding a wine glass. This could allude to the means by which the Strangler poison is delivered. 

Of course, mini-Jaime, aka Joffrey, says the pigeon pie (and or the lemon cream spooned onto it) is the reason he is choking to death. Could he have been poisoned (choked) with both the pie and the wine? 

[sweetsunray]

@Seams

I've been doing some research on electrum, which is the metal of the archmaester that Sam (and Ameon) believed to be the Seneschal. And basically between Norren, Walgrave and Theobald (lead), I came up with a trio that hints at the Dr. Weird template.

First the electrum (Norren's metal, who isn't seneschal anymore):

• a natural metal that also goes by the name of greengold (Dr. Weird's colors) and was used to make coin in ancient civilisations such as Egypt, etc. It's a natural alloy of silver + gold + trace copper. It's light yellow to greenish tinge.
• interesting for this thread, the Louvre has a cup of the 7th/8th century BC made out of electrum from Cyprus that depicts
  • in the upper decoration band the "works of hercules" (greek)
  • in the middle decoration band a frieze of spinxes
  • in the bowl a king defeating his enemies, he looks Egyptian
  • interesting to find both greek and egyptian imagery on either side of these sphinxes, because the Citadel's outer green stone sphinxes are male (egyptian) and female (greek). Whereas Alleras unites both. Using the pronouns "they" and "them" for Alleras fits perfectly in that sense.
• it is also the latin name for amber, the resin that evergreen trees shed, because there are light-yellow and greenish ambers.
  • Myth: the son of the sun god Helios went in search of his father, found him in the east (starting the day) and after promising to grant him a wish, the son begged him for the boon to ride his chariot (with two wild horses). Helios warned he wouldn't be able to really control the horses, but his son insisted. And so he rode those chariots, could not control the horses, and the chariot came too close to earth, scorching parts of it, then he pulled too far away from the earth freezing other parts. The stars complained with Zeus, and after too many of those, fed up, Zeus threw his lightning bolt at Phaeton on the chariot and killed him. His sisters turned into black poplar trees (evergreens) and they wept tears of electrum/amber. The name Phaeton means "sunbeam", which is how Dr. Weird's one and only powerbolt is described against his opponent defeats the demon.
  • Because amber has electrostatic features, our modern words of "electron" and "electicity" derive from the Latin name for Amber, aka "electrum"

I wasn't so sure whether George knows of that electrum cup with the sphinxes in the Louvre, but at the very least he chose electrum to hint at green-gold with sunbeam powers and lightning bolts in relation to a catastrophe of ice and fire.

So, then I looked at the Walgrave-Theobald thing. So the archmaester of ravencraft was supposed to be the Seneschal, but he has "lost his wits" (dementia) and Theobald whose rod and mask is lead volunteered and stepped up to be the Seneschal. To me that suggests we should unite aspects of both men. And what we get is a "white masked fool" (another ingredient to the Dr. Weird template).

• Walgrave has "lost his wits". His mind is broken. People whose mind are broken fall under the category of "fool".
• Lead is a metal known for lead poisoning, which affects mental abilities, and which the Romans already noted can lead to insanity or madness. At some point, lead was hugely popular in cosmetics to "whiten the face".
• All we know of Theobald is that his rod and mask are made of lead. Lead by itself does not look white of course, but the cosmetics with lead can be said to be a "lead mask"
  • Dr. Weird puts white face make-up on the face of the mind-broken man he called a "fool" (for his actions) and dressed him in the greengold superhero suit, to make the "fool" be mistaken for him

I'm doubting this isn't coincidence anymore, neither the electrum and lead in relation to the men mentioned in the convo about "who's Seneschal?". Overall it suggests that the Citadel is "the fool", the decoy for a villain to strike at, before Dr.Weird can hit the villain with the sunbeam/lightning bolt coming from his golden arm.

I've also took a closer look at Lorcas in relation to "the fog thinning with a pale sun coming through". It suggests Sam is starting to "time shift" (metaphorically), but not yet to the earliest times. There's still some fog, just thinner. So that implies he's time shifting to pre-Andal invasion times, the FM days post LN. We know this because this time-shift occurs at the Seneschal court, not at the oldest part of the Citadel with its "wooden gate".  It occurs while Sam is on the bench waiting for his name to be called by Lorcas (the only man of note at this moment) and it still will be a while before the Sphinx (Alleras) shows up. 

So, it invites us to take a second look at Lorcas. Initially, Lorcas' quill and writing as well as Sam telling him he brought letters from his LC to give to the Seneschal marks it as "post Andal invasion era".

But what is Lorcas actually doing? He's just writing down "names". Meanwhile "letters" aren't just a written down message several paragraphs long. To "learn your letters" is an expression that means you're "learning the alphabet". The First Men had the "runic alphabet", and they used the "runes" to carve "names" into commemorating stones.

So at a second closer look, we can think of Lorcas as a FM writing down runic names. Him not wearing a maester's chain corroborates that. He represents a before-Citadel-as-we-know-it FM wise man.

Runes are not just "alphabet letters" but they also serve as "phonemes" (sound meaning) and "idiograms" (symbolic pictures representing an idea or concept). Another writing system and "alphabet" where the "letters" are also "phonemes" and "idiograms" are Egyptian hieroglyphs. And this is where we "time shift" to when Sam drowses off: to the "dream time". He wakes up abruptly when he "hears a name being called that isn't his". In other words, Sam hears "phonemes". Then someone speaks to him, he turns and sees the Sphinx, an "idiogram". And since idiograms are symbolic pictures of an idea or concept, we are most definitely pressed to look at this meeting in a symbolic context and certainly analyze the Sphinx as a representation of an idea that goes all the way back to the Dawn era (the dream time) and early Age of Heroes.

Edited September 4, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Seams]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

it is also the latin name for amber, the resin that evergreen trees shed, because there are light-yellow and greenish ambers.

Fascinating. 

Some immediate thoughts:

Quote

"I have something for you as well, Ser Duncan. Come." Ser Eustace produced a cloak, and shook it out with a flourish.

It was white wool, bordered with squares of green satin and cloth of gold. A woolen cloak was the last thing he needed in such heat, but when Ser Eustace draped it about his shoulders, Dunk saw the pride on his face, and found himself unable to refuse. "Thank you, m'lord."

"It suits you well. Would that I could give you more." The old man's mustache twitched. "I sent Sam Stoops down into the cellar to search through my sons' things, but Edwyn and Harrold were smaller men, thinner in the chest and much shorter in the leg. None of what they left would fit you, sad to say."

The Sworn Sword

Dunk is also a fool / knight and he is about to solve the impasses that are causing a drought, killing flora and preventing peace in this part of the Reach. 

I suspect Sam Stoops and Sam Stoops's Wife are the gatekeepers in this story. Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield is shown standing in the middle of a bridge and hauling up a set of wooden steps that allow access to the Standfast keep, though. He has inserted himself as a gatekeeper and has to be driven off. (With rain.) 

Of course, Dunk encounters a maester after he dies - Maester Cerrick, who was Ironborn, which seems extremely unusual for a Maester. The mule named Maester is also a key figure in the story's opening scene. 

And here is some amber in the context of a discussion about opening the gate in the Wall:

Quote

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly.

"I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," Mance replied. "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow."

"You can kill your enemies," Jon said bluntly, "but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king's peace and obey the laws?"

ASoS, Jon X

Jon has sent Sam to the Citadel to become a Maester but also to recruit support for the major battle to come; Jon is becoming a "true king" who protects the realm and Mance is telling him how to do it. (Except that a lot of the problems Jon anticipates seem to come true just before Jon is stabbed to death.)

Sam arrives at the Citadel with a wildling princess - another of GRRM's delightful ironies, because everyone at Castle Black is describing Val as a wildling princess but Gilly is operating under the radar. Sam has taken her as a salt wife while they were on the voyage. Another irony is that Sam and Gilly are carrying Mance's baby, who seems likely to have an important destiny, given the name of Aemon Battleborn and Aemon Steelsong. Initially, Gilly suggested that Mance's baby should be named Maester, tying in that motif of Maesters as having powers to draw our hero across a barrier. 

I've speculated that there is word play around maester / stream. Dunk's sacrifice seems to end the drought and restore the stream called the Chequy Water. So the maesters gain something and the rest of the community is also saved. 

I guess my point here about amber is that Gilly as a "queen" who would wear amber may be part of the recipe Sam needs to open the magical gate at the Citadel and infiltrate the layers of history or magic there. Melisandre wanted king's blood for her rituals, but maybe the presence of the baby Aemon Steelsong is also one of the ingredients that is advancing Sam's work on behalf of Lord Commander Jon Snow. There's more than one way to use king's blood.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Seams

[sweetsunray]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

So it would seem that some gatekeepers are paid with books. But are those gatekeepers all sphinxes, or are there different kinds of gatekeepers, some paid with pennies and others with books?

I think ultimately a sphinx is a greenseer, so you pay a greenseer either with knowledge/info (something you know) or you a penny. We have "pennytree" after all

Remember also GoHH: she tells the BwB what she's seen in her green dreams, but only if she gets her song. It's a "trade"

ETA: Another word for a penny could be "a copper", since asoiaf pennies are made of copper. Anyway in ancient Greece and related nearby islands (like Rhodes) they began to put heads of gods or patrons on one side of coinage, and a city on the other side. But also visual puns. Coins of rhodes put roses for example on one side, because the Greek word for "rose" is "rhodos".

So giving a "copper" or a "penny" may be paying the gatekeeper with a cryptic pun or riddle. You give the "sphinx" a riddle they can ask the next visitor. Sort of like Golem and Bilbo exchange riddles.

Edited September 4, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Sandy Clegg]

Another connection between poisons and choking, concerning Tyrion.

Tyrion strangles Shae with a chain of golden hands:

Beneath it she was naked, but for the chain about her throat. A chain of linked golden hands, each holding the next.

In nature, the laburnum is called by the name golden chain or golden rain and is indeed poisonous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laburnum

Given this information, could GRRM have been setting up Tyrion's killing of Shae as far back as book one? It's possible, especially if we now interpret this quote as invoking the idea of the above laburnum  - via some metaphorical 'golden rain':

Quote

Tyrion laughed. "What, me, celibate? The whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock. No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world." - AGOT, Tyrion I

I feel as though all those hints George gives in interviews about being a 'gardener writer' may be telling us to look a bit more deeply into names of plants, trees and flowers relating to ASOIAF. I have a post coming up which centres around Aegon's Garden that has some particularly eerie foreshadowing.

EDIT: There is some extra foreshadowing of Tywin's sexual relationship with Shae buried in a feast scene at Winterfell in book two:

Quote

There were great joints of aurochs roasted with leeks, venison pies chunky with carrots, bacon, and mushrooms, mutton chops sauced in honey and cloves - ACOK, Bran III

Mutton chops (in English) can refer to facial hair of this type:

mutton chop

• A piece of mutton
• (of facial hair) shaped like a mutton chop: broad and rounded on the cheek

No hair on the lip or chin, in other words. Basically like Wolverine from the X-Men.

And mutton chops are a signifying feature of Twin's facial hair:

Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his sidewhiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw.

Golden muttonchops, in fact. 'Sauced with honey and cloves' is a saucy reference to Shae, whose breath does indeed smell of honey and cloves:

Quote

Tyrion put down the candle, took her hand in his, and pulled her gently to him. She bent to kiss him. Her mouth tasted of honey and cloves, and her fingers were deft and practiced as they found the fastenings of his clothes. - AGOT, Tyrion VIII

So 'muttonchops sauced with honey and cloves' goes back to book two, and the golden rain goes back to book one, then we get the golden chain strangling in book three. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Frey family reunion]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:19 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Tyrion strangles Shae with a chain of golden hands:

Beneath it she was naked, but for the chain about her throat. A chain of linked golden hands, each holding the next.

In nature, the laburnum is called by the name golden chain or golden rain and is indeed poisonous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laburnum

 

Interesting, and apparently if you read the wiki, the larvae of the buff-tip moth uses it for food. And when Tywin and Shae’s bodies are found:

Quote

A moth had gotten into the lantern Ser Boros was holding; she could hear it buzzing and see the shadow of its wings as it beat against the glass.

 

[Sandy Clegg]

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Interesting, and apparently if you read the wiki, the larvae of the buff-tip moth uses it for food.

Yeah for some weird reason Wikipedia is obsessed with listing the moths who feed on given plants. It gives me the creeps that there are so many varieties of the damn things. I've mentioned the sphinx moth before in relation to the lantern, too, yeah. Seems like there are so many species of moth that it might be hard to pin them down (so to speak) as clues.

[sweetsunray]

39 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Yeah for some weird reason Wikipedia is obsessed with listing the moths who feed on given plants. It gives me the creeps that there are so many varieties of the damn things. I've mentioned the sphinx moth before in relation to the lantern, too, yeah. Seems like there are so many species of moth that it might be hard to pin them down (so to speak) as clues.

Might check out the moth mans:

• Ned sees LF with moths coming out of his mouth in a hallucination/vision in the black cells.
  • With Ned's early depiction as a Stark with a sword beneath the WW, and then ending up in the "dark" and seeing stuff, and after death talking via WW tree, in crypt dreams and his face on a WW tree in Jon's weird dream... Ned seems to be alluded to as having latent but undeveloped greenseer abilities. Maybe his third eye opened in those black cells? He just didn't a ww tree around or a trainer. In fact, he was fostered to the Arryns (pure Andal origin) and lived at the Eyrie (no heart tree) and Gates of the Moon (first Andal keep, no ww), and that around Bran's age of aCoK. Sort of makes me wonder whether Ned may have had some weirwood dreams at WF as a young boy, and where Luwin drugged Bran to stop his dreams (didn't work), Rickard's maester convinced his lord to send Ned to be fostered where there are no weirwoods.
• Stannis' Richard Thorpe who has deathmoths for his sigil

[Sandy Clegg]

SMOTHERING

I'm wondering whether 'smothering' can be counted as 'strangling/choking'. Let's assume so, and continue the word trawl. At this point I'm finding these trawls equally useful just for throwing up random passages to analyse, so let's see what turns up.

A tip for anyone using https://asearchoficeandfire.com

Typing in 'smother' gets lots of results along the lines of "Jon's mother"  - but using quote marks restricts too much, so you get separate results for 'smother' - 'smothered' - 'smothering'. It can be a bit fiddly this way.

1. Jon v Wight

The direwolf wrenched free and came to him as the wight struggled to rise, dark snakes spilling from the great wound in its belly. Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn. - AGOT, Jon VII

I like the image of the burning drapes wrapped around Jon's hand here, as they recall the 'curtain of light' in Bran's AGOT green dream:

Quote

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

So we have one curtain (or drape) that burns wights, and another at the border of the heart of winter ...

2. Mel's robes

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone. - ACOK, Davos II

Mel's pregnant form, alive with light and heat, is cloaked by her robes. Compare this to the next Davos chapter, with a different kind of fire and a different kind of cloak:

He grimaced. Burning pitch was one thing, wildfire quite another. Evil stuff, and well-nigh unquenchable. Smother it under a cloak and the cloak took fire; slap at a fleck of it with your palm and your hand was aflame. "Piss on wildfire and your cock burns off," old seamen liked to say. - ACOK, Davos III

Piss on wildfire and ... goodbye cock - rather like prophecy, according to Marwyn the Mage:

Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ." - AFFC, Samwell IV

Anyone else find it weird that Marwyn chews just after mentioning bitten-off pricks?  Anyway. Wildfire and treacherous women connected with prick loss, wildfire and Melisandre both busting free of cloaks.

 

 

[Seams]

Seems likely that there is a wordplay string involving moth / mother / smother. 

I would also venture to suggest that the burning cloak imagery might relate to the moth (or butterfly?) emerging from a cocoon.

Dany shedding her tokar is also pretty clear imagery of a butterfly emerging from a cocoon - she becomes a dragon rider immediately afterward.

Maybe we need to take a step back and look at the drapes, cloaks and tokar as part of the larger fabric motif. When Illyrio gives Dany the dragon eggs, they are in a chest with a bunch of silk fabric. Maybe those silks represent the cocoon from which the dragons must emerge. Jon and Ygritte finally shed all of their furs in the depths of a cave and make love for the first time in their birthday suits - this seemed to be the meaningful love-making session, even though it wasn't the first. Reference to rustling skirts usually involve a mother hiding her son who is a king - except the first reference, which refers to Septa Mordane, leading me to assume that she is a secret queen, hiding a son.

If the cocoon connection is correct, people who are smothered by fabric are actually preparing for a rebirth with the power of flight.

[Sandy Clegg]

On 9/26/2023 at 3:12 PM, Seams said:

If the cocoon connection is correct, people who are smothered by fabric are actually preparing for a rebirth with the power of flight.

Arya sees Cerwyn leaving Harrenhall cocooned in a burial shroud ...

Quote

Then one morning she spied three women in the cowled grey robes of the silent sisters loading a corpse into their wagon. The body was sewn into a cloak of the finest silk, decorated with a battle-axe sigil. When Arya asked who it was, one of the guards told her that Lord Cerwyn had died. The words felt like a kick in the belly. He could never have helped you anyway, she thought as the sisters drove the wagon through the gate. He couldn't even help himself, you stupid mouse. - ACOK

Of course, axes to me conjure up bats rather than moths, but hey they both fly.

[Sandy Clegg]

Just added an update to the OP about persimmons. And now I've seen that there's a species of fig called the Strangler Fig which I might do a separate post on. What is it with all the choking fruit?