Bran is a hero: or, GRRM's color codes

[SaffronLady]

Bran is a greenseer bonded to a golden-eyed direwolf. As in shown through GRRM's early work Dr. Weird, he uses 3 sets of color codes:

For heroes, Green + Gold.

For antagonists, White + Blue & Black + Red.

(Color combinations not extant in Dr. Weird, such as Gold + Red (Lannisters), Red + Pink (Boltons) etc. are not accounted for)

So Bran is going to be a hero unless something happens to his wolf, because single colors mean neither heroes nor villains. House Stark in general is neutral, since they don't have either combination.

By extension, some predicting the downfall of House Tyrell in TWOW have a point, since their colors are green and gold, thus color-coded to be a heroic house ... and we all know how would-be heroes fare in the world of Ice and Fire. Renly and the fool of House Toland are very dead testaments to that, and yes their colors are green and gold too.

OTOH, the Others, with their white bodies and blue eyes, are basically GRRM-certified™ to be antagonists. Note: antagonist does not mean evil. They will certainly be at odds with Bran and Jon and the other humans at the Wall; that does not mean GRRM will also smash the theories that the Others are misunderstood, or have good intentions, or actually want to repair the Wall. But whatever the Other's own reasoning, motives and goals, they are already color-coded to be antagonists.

So are the Targaryens, by the way. Did I mention GRRM color-codes his antagonists Black + Red? Now I did. 1 point in favor of "Dany isn't a real Targ" theories, since ... she's a protag. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be connected to Lemongate - a villainous house could have heroic members, after all, such as Aemon the Dragonknight.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I like the notion of color pair codes, and I think there probably is something to that in GRRM's writing.

I'm not sure if gold and green always represent heroes though. The strongest character associations I make with that color pair are for Tywin, Cersei, and Renly. Tywin for his hair and eyes (which get a lot of attention from GRRM), Renly for his clothes, and Cersei for both. Renly certainly wants to present as heroic, and in particular wants to conjure the Reach's Garth Greenhand symbolism that is likely rooted in ancient greenseeing. But the man underneath those colors ultimately proved to be of lesser stuff. Cersei seems to dress to accentuate the green of her eyes, which also matches wildfire quite nicely. Probably not a heroic association!

The black and red, that does seem to be GRRM going hard on making his fantasy superhero race more as default villains. But as you say, the exceptions and the details in the story are what make these broader frameworks interesting.

[sweetsunray]

@Phylum of Alexandria

The Dr. Weird template is somewhat complex:

• green gold is the superhero suit
• without the suit he is a grey ghost with white face
• he uses a trick against a black-red demon (with batwing buckle) where he dresses up a fool with his own green-gold suit and paints the fool's face white.
  • He does this because the demon only has the power to destroy souls and minds, but not physical bodies.
  • The fool is someone who is a physical shell, with empty/broken mind and soul.
  • Dr. Weird then animates the fool, but each time the demon attacks him (thinking the fool to be Dr. Weird), Dr. Weird leaves the body in time, so that he himself is not hit (for he is spirit and thus could be obliterated by the villain).
  • Meanwhile the demon cannot harm the fool any worse than the state he's already in. (think Drogo status before being pillowed)
• Dr Weird strikes at the demon (using the fool) with his "golden arm/hand" and as the bolt or spear of light leaves his arm, it is described as a sunburst or sunbeam.
• The trick is usually triggered around the time a maiden may end up sacrificed.

So, the Stark sigil is not that neutral really. Those are the colors of Dr. Weird without his superhero suit.

Yes, Renly has the green-gold of Dr. Weird. Since his green-gold armor is used by Garlan to give the impression that he's Renly's ghost going against Stannis, we can see how the Tyrells and Renly (fool) fit into the template. But they are ultimately not the true Dr. Weird, since they are more busy with the IT than protecting the realm of men from demons. Much of the KL plot during the Blackwater revolves around the women in the red keep fearing rape, if KL would fall to Stannis. At present, the Tyrells are green-gold by themselves as well and a maiden queen (meaning young woman) is at peril.

The Lannisters: yes, they have green gold. Tywin's eyes are green flecked with gold. Jaime has green eyes and wears golden armor. During the sack of KL by Tywin, a young woman (Elia and her daughter Rhaenys) were at peril. But nobody saved them. Instead the sun/son of the former Hand (green eyed with fleck of gold) killed the black-red Mad King dressed in his golden armor. There's our sunbeam.

Oberyn Martell's fight repeats the description of golden sunbeams being reflected from Oberyn's spear just as he gets his chance to strike the Mountain with the poison on his spear. He also keeps repeating his accusations of the Mountain raping and murdering his sister Elia Martell. So, it's there, but Oberyn Martell comes too late. He cannot rescue his sister, only seek justice for her. While the Mountain is a human (dumb and brutish) monster (with a headache), via Oberyn's poison and Qyburn's whatever-he-does, Oberyn ultimately created a ghostly demon. And his own brain got splashed, so he's the fool. In other words, it's all going wrong there.

Aegon, JonCon and the GC possibly having a pick in allies: the Martells (the golden spear on sunburst) of the Greenblood (river in Dorne) and the green-gold Tyrells. Aegon and JonCon are both "ghosts" and JonCon is a grey ghost because of his greyscale.

The dragon of Aegon II (of the Greens), golden Sunfyre devours half of wild, elusive white-smokey Greyghost, as well as black-red Rhaenyra. This is a villainous Dr. Weird who eats its own. His one-eyed brother Aemon rides Vhagar who is green-bronze (almost gold). 

So, there are many Dr. Weirds and many fools that can be put to use. They're wrong or fake Dr. Weirds. The true Dr. Weird amongst them though are imo the Starks who focus on the actual demons, rather than vengeance or IT or getting another shot at rectifying mistakes of war... with Bran as the superduper Dr. Weird.

Edited September 6, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Frey family reunion]

So I'm assuming that Dr. Weird is GRRM's version of Dr. Strange.

Interesting, because long ago someone made a post showing the parallels to Bran's journeys and some of Dr. Strange's comic adventures in the 60's and 70's.  

[csuszka1948]

9 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

So are the Targaryens, by the way. Did I mention GRRM color-codes his antagonists Black + Red? Now I did. 1 point in favor of "Dany isn't a real Targ" theories, since ... she's a protag. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be connected to Lemongate - a villainous house could have heroic members, after all, such as Aemon the Dragonknight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not really convinced by this argument.

1) The Greens are portrayed as the more villanous side in the Dance against the Blacks.

2) GRRM tends to dodge questions about Targaryens as villains while inequivocally putting the Lannisters in this category, viewing only the Greyjoys as worse:

"SI.com: Is there a sports team that is parallel to the Lannisters or the Targaryens?

Martin: Being a fan of the Giants and also the Jets, the two teams that I hate of course are the Dallas Cowboys in the NFC and the Patriots in the AFC. So I tend to identify them with the villains in some cases. These are both very powerful institutions, very rich institutions as The Lannisters are rich. I think the Cowboys are the most valuable franchise in the NFL and the Patriots are up there, too. They have very powerful owners and they exercise a lot of power in the league. Both Robert Kraft and Jerry Jones carry a lot of sway. Even the Commissioner does not disregard them lightly. And they use their power for ill!"

"SI.com: Am I wrong to see Bill Belichick as a Lannister?

Martin: I call him Evil Little Bill on my blog so in some ways he might be worse than a Lannister. Maybe he's a Greyjoy."

3) I don't see what this has to do with fDany. Jon is almost certainly a Targaryen, and it's unlikely he will end up a villain, since GRRM called him the closest to a classic hero.

Obviously, you could say that "Jon doesn't have Targ upbringing", but then this has to be applied the other way around: even if (by some miracle) Dany wasn't born a "Targaryen", she was definitely raised to be one.

Edited September 6, 2023 by csuszka1948

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So I'm assuming that Dr. Weird is GRRM's version of Dr. Strange.

Interesting, because long ago someone made a post showing the parallels to Bran's journeys and some of Dr. Strange's comic adventures in the 60's and 70's.  

Dr. Weird is not really GRRM's creation. But Keltner's: http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/drweird.htm

One of the first of GRRM's stories published (in 1967) was Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark, which featured Dr. Weird. He really liked the hero ('cause he's a weirdo: a time traveler that got shot when he stepped out of the time machine by burglars and isn't allowed to be properly dead until he catches back up chronologically until the day his former self steps into the time machine - and George always liked "weird" stuff). It was published  in SSC #10. So, basically the tenth story of the superhero world that Keltner had been creating. Keltner loved what George was doing so much with Dr. Weird that he asked him to write more about him.

George featured that particular story as the first of the selection of short stories for Dreamsongs I, under the section "Four Colored Fanboy". He still likes him

But no he's not Dr. Strange inspired.

Edited September 6, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sweetsunray]

About Targs: Aegon on Balerion plays the demon part against the fool in green-gold motley of House Toland of Ghost Hill, during the First Dornish War. Aegon burned the "champion" but found Ghost Hill empty.

Later on he gets a letter (a weapon written by a hand) from Prince Martell (with the golden spear on red sunburst) and he flies immediately back to Dragonstone.

So, the combo of House Toland + the letter of Martell sends the "demon" back to where he came from.

But Aegon gets to be king of a peaceful realm after.

Notice that the sole sister by his side is the one who rides a green-bronze dragon (Vhagar). And that Maegor the Cruel doesn't lose his grip in the realm until Visenya's death. So, as long as the black-red dragons aren't the sole dragons and have green allies (even villainous ones like Aegon II and Aemon during the Dance), they're being mitigated or safe.

But a black-red dragon alone in the world is a most terrifying thing.

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

For heroes, Green + Gold.

Good to have even more confirmation that Renly is a hero.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

@Phylum of Alexandria

The Dr. Weird template is somewhat complex:

• green gold is the superhero suit
• without the suit he is a grey ghost with white face
• he uses a trick against a black-red demon (with batwing buckle) where he dresses up a fool with his own green-gold suit and paints the fool's face white.
  • He does this because the demon only has the power to destroy souls and minds, but not physical bodies.
  • The fool is someone who is a physical shell, with empty/broken mind and soul.
  • Dr. Weird then animates the fool, but each time the demon attacks him (thinking the fool to be Dr. Weird), Dr. Weird leaves the body in time, so that he himself is not hit (for he is spirit and thus could be obliterated by the villain).
  • Meanwhile the demon cannot harm the fool any worse than the state he's already in. (think Drogo status before being pillowed)
• Dr Weird strikes at the demon (using the fool) with his "golden arm/hand" and as the bolt or spear of light leaves his arm, it is described as a sunburst or sunbeam.
• The trick is usually triggered around the time a maiden may end up sacrificed.

So, the Stark sigil is not that neutral really. Those are the colors of Dr. Weird without his superhero suit.

Yes, Renly has the green-gold of Dr. Weird. Since his green-gold armor is used by Garlan to give the impression that he's Renly's ghost going against Stannis, we can see how the Tyrells and Renly (fool) fit into the template. But they are ultimately not the true Dr. Weird, since they are more busy with the IT than protecting the realm of men from demons. Much of the KL plot during the Blackwater revolves around the women in the red keep fearing rape, if KL would fall to Stannis. At present, the Tyrells are green-gold by themselves as well and a maiden queen (meaning young woman) is at peril.

The Lannisters: yes, they have green gold. Tywin's eyes are green flecked with gold. Jaime has green eyes and wears golden armor. During the sack of KL by Tywin, a young woman (Elia and her daughter Rhaenys) were at peril. But nobody saved them. Instead the sun/son of the former Hand (green eyed with fleck of gold) killed the black-red Mad King dressed in his golden armor. There's our sunbeam.

Oberyn Martell's fight repeats the description of golden sunbeams being reflected from Oberyn's spear just as he gets his chance to strike the Mountain with the poison on his spear. He also keeps repeating his accusations of the Mountain raping and murdering his sister Elia Martell. So, it's there, but Oberyn Martell comes too late. He cannot rescue his sister, only seek justice for her. While the Mountain is a human (dumb and brutish) monster (with a headache), via Oberyn's poison and Qyburn's whatever-he-does, Oberyn ultimately created a ghostly demon. And his own brain got splashed, so he's the fool. In other words, it's all going wrong there.

Aegon, JonCon and the GC possibly having a pick in allies: the Martells (the golden spear on sunburst) of the Greenblood (river in Dorne) and the green-gold Tyrells. Aegon and JonCon are both "ghosts" and JonCon is a grey ghost because of his greyscale.

The dragon of Aegon II (of the Greens), golden Sunfyre devours half of wild, elusive white-smokey Greyghost, as well as black-red Rhaenyra. This is a villainous Dr. Weird who eats its own. His one-eyed brother Aemon rides Vhagar who is green-bronze (almost gold). 

So, there are many Dr. Weirds and many fools that can be put to use. They're wrong or fake Dr. Weirds. The true Dr. Weird amongst them though are imo the Starks who focus on the actual demons, rather than vengeance or IT or getting another shot at rectifying mistakes of war... with Bran as the superduper Dr. Weird.

I wish there was an 'interested' or 'good work' reaction. 'Thanks', 'Like', 'Haha', 'Confused' and 'Sad' don't really reflect my feelings properly.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So I'm assuming that Dr. Weird is GRRM's version of Dr. Strange.

Interesting, because long ago someone made a post showing the parallels to Bran's journeys and some of Dr. Strange's comic adventures in the 60's and 70's.  

So that makes Bran Dr Bizarre..

OP, I really like this color code theory. @sweetsunray what do you think would happen if Drogon ended up being the sole dragon in-universe? Or if Rhaegal was mounted by a potential/eventual enemy of Dany's?

[sweetsunray]

14 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

So that makes Bran Dr Bizarre..

OP, I really like this color code theory. @sweetsunray what do you think would happen if Drogon ended up being the sole dragon in-universe? Or if Rhaegal was mounted by a potential/eventual enemy of Dany's?

I'm not sure yet. It depends imo what Drogon actually is, what type of soul went into him.

When we consider Dany's three dragon dreams it sort of becomes ominous. Is the spirit dragon she sees "herself" or is it some "demon" in another dimension (like darklyn plain) waiting for someone to bring him back into the world? That's how George's starts: Saagael in a tower waiting for someone to do the fire and blood ritual so he can leave his hell and enter the world to bring an endless night. Her first and second dream would match with that.

In the original old story two thieves who've stolen rubies (yes rubies) hide in an old temple. They build a campfire and then go to sleep. One of them doesn't like creepy crawlies and chooses an elevated slab to sleep away from the ground. The other thief wants the rubies all to himself. So he waits until the one on the slab sleeps and kills him. His mate was sleeping on an altar. So now we have a fire & blood ritual. And the demon who was wating in his tower in the other dimension appears through a crack in the temple. Instead of thanking the thief who did the deed, he sends the soul and mind destroying bolt at the thief (called Jasper).

Dr. Weird notices something evil has come into the world, races to the source and finds Jasper: breathing and heart beating, but blind and otherwise unmoving, because his mind and soul is destroyed. Jasper is just a shell. Dr. Weird refers to him as a "fool" for what he did.

The description of soul-destroyed and mindless Jasper is very much like how Drogo ends up. And in her third dream, Dany sees the wings of a dragon while she's with Drogo, and then later Rhaego. We also see how the dream-dragon burns Drogo. It could be interpreted as a demon with wings destroying Drogo's soul and mind.

So, you could interprete it as Dany being manipulated by a demonic and intelligent supernatural entity that wishes to be born in the flesh, and beguiles Targs into doing this for him or it.

We could even think of it being the same "soul" that was Balerion. I always feel there was some desperation from Balerion's part when he flew off with Aerea to Old Valyria. He was getting older, and if he was a smart entity, he had some egg lying in wait for him to be reborn in. But Farman stole three eggs. If those are Dany's eggs, Farman fled with the black-red egg, which would turn to stone away from the volcanic hot area at Dragonstone. So, he needed new eggs to be incubated. Aerea was that effort potentially.

So, basically I'm including the possibility that these "names" of Valyrian gods but also being names of dragons are some type of fire & blood thing where certain other-dimensional entities (gods) can be born in the flesh. Some are more benign and just having fun. Others like the black-red one craves for dominion.

ETA: Not saying we should interprete such events and dreams that way, but George certainly leaves that possibility open + allusions to fertility issues for Balerion riders + dropping the name Saagael as a worshipped god in Lys and by Lara Rogare brought. He may remain ambiguous on that, as he was about MMD.

Conclusion: if this is a possibile interpretation for the black red dream dragon of Dany, we could then ask ourselves - would we rather have him bound to flesh as the very last dragon or in his darklyn plain. Dany has had dreams and visions from all type of sources, but she only seems to have had 3 dragon dreams: before the eggs hatched. If I consider the possibility that there's some other dimentional demon might be behind it, then the dragon flesh may be fun, but is also a bit like the teeny tiny living space that comes with being a genie ... physical restrictions

Edited September 7, 2023 by sweetsunray

[SaffronLady]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, the Stark sigil is not that neutral really. Those are the colors of Dr. Weird without his superhero suit.

I should have investigated Dr. Weird further before making this topic, my bad.

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Good to have even more confirmation that Renly is a hero.

I have my personal reservations about whether the King of Summer is actually a hero, but he seems to fit the place of a "myth hero", someone like well Oedipus.

9 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

OP, I really like this color code theory.

Credits to @sweetsunray and the other folks working at his Wall Origin thread for forming in passing while discussing the Wall. I just thought it would be better to make another topic based off of it.

 

Anyhow folks, let's try to make the forum a little more about GRRM's works instead of ... weird Targ fantasies.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I should have investigated Dr. Weird further before making this topic, my bad.

You did investigate it ok and started the thread

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You did investigate it ok and started the thread

I should try to get Dreamsongs if I want to be of further useful input, since I haven't read the actual story yet.

18 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

The Greens are portrayed as the more villanous side in the Dance against the Blacks.

If I do have any original input on the "color pair codes" theory, I think I have put it rather obviously in preparation for this very argument:

Quote

single colors mean neither heroes nor villains

Mind you, while Tyrells are green and gold, House Hightower's colors are not. That the 2 factions in the civil war were both color-coded with one color only is, in light of this theory, a clue that GRRM intends for both factions to be morally ambiguous.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

While the Mountain is a human (dumb and brutish) monster (with a headache), via Oberyn's poison and Qyburn's whatever-he-does, Oberyn ultimately created a ghostly demon. And his own brain got splashed, so he's the fool. In other words, it's all going wrong there.

I am now a little afraid Bran would careen off the hero path and into the fool path. But then, if Jon Snow is an Aragorn in the making, maybe Bran is the Gandalf.

Maybe.

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

green-bronze (almost gold)

IIRC, ERE records of the Chalke Gate of Constantinople, which was decorated with unrusted bronze plates, states that it glittered like gold under the sun, second only to the Chrysos Gate, which is literally "the Golden Gate". So green-bronze might be a clue to "rusting false/mimic gold", as oxided copper is green (blue-greenish).

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The true Dr. Weird amongst them though are imo the Starks who focus on the actual demons, rather than vengeance or IT or getting another shot at rectifying mistakes of war... with Bran as the superduper Dr. Weird.

Bran Stark connected both to the original Dr. Weird colors (silver and white cuz he's a ghost) and his armor (green & gold)?

[Seams]

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Dr. Weird is not really GRRM's creation. But Keltner's: http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/drweird.htm

Thanks for this link. This is a really helpful perspective on one of GRRM's versions of a hero - maybe "the" version of a hero. 

The colors are a clear clue, but the "immortal dead guy" also seems relevant, and may help us to understand characters such as Ser Beric Dondarrion (lightning sigil, which seems to be part of the Dr. Weird bag of tricks) and Ser Duncan the Tall, both of whom die several times but get back up.

I have long suspected that the Shadow Tower at the Wall is a residence dedicated to members of the Night's Watch who have died-but-can't-die. Qhorin's directive to Jon Snow seems like a huge self-sacrifice until the moment Jon Snow cuts his throat with the tip of his sword and Qhorin seems (to me) greatly relieved: I sense that he wanted to die. If he is part of this Dr. Weird set of characters, this longing for death makes sense. And he achieves it after emerging through a portal (time travel?) with Jon Snow to, perhaps, take over the job that Qhorin had been doing while waiting for death.

I can't remember whether this was already raised in the recent discussion of the Wall, but Dr. Weird's last name was "Ward" before he was killed but not really killed. We were thinking that wards are special characters in ASOIAF and people might need to have wards nearby for major forms of protection. 

If Ser Loras has joined the ranks of the dead-but-not-really characters, after his extreme injuries in the battle for Dragonstone, this may be a clue for us about a new dead-but-not-dead hero replacing a previous character in that role. Ser Loras wanted to lead the group that became the BWB but Ned Stark chose Ser Beric instead. We know that Ser Beric gave his last kiss to Lady Stoneheart, but she doesn't really fit the mold of a Dr. Weird hero character. (Or does she? Maybe we need to discuss this?) But there are strong parallels between Cersei and Catelyn, and Cersei is the one who sends Ser Loras on the mission to Dragonstone. Is Ser Loras the new Ser Beric? 

Ser Beric had the lightning, but not the gold and green. Ser Loras has the gold and green. 

Were there also elements in the one-on-one combat (jousting) between Ser Loras and The Mountain that would qualify for the recipe (if that's the right word) to create a new hero? 

You have identified the sacrifice of a maiden as a necessary ingredient. I would suggest that the torture of Jeyne Poole might fit the requirements. She has a crush on Ser Beric at the Hand's Tourney. If this puts her into a role as an extension of Allyria Dayne, betrothed to Ser Beric, we know that Dayne women are often in the role of sacrificed, tragic maidens. The completion (we hope) of Jeyne's torture roughly coincides with the death of Ser Beric and the anointing of Ser Loras as a new hero with his near death at Dragonstone. 

 

[sweetsunray]

@SaffronLady

I ordered mine from Amazon, 2nd hand. And Dreamsongs I was the one I had George sign at Titancon in 2019. He was really pleased at having to sign writing of his that wasn't aSoIaF.

I would be recitent about "single" colors being neutral. Pure (scarlet) red is never ever neutral for George for example. It's a different code than the green-gold + grey-white though. And green is by itself also code for "nature": wild, nature, counter-balancing, ... And yes nature has a violent side to it and can be aggressive. In George's mind, green isn't peacenick treehugging. 

But that's not the reason I would not jump to conclusions on that alone. A house can be part of a faction. For instance we say the "Greens" but their sigil was black with a golden three-headed dragon. And Aegon's Sunfyre was golden, whereas Aemon's was Vhagar (green-bronze). So, we do have a coming together of the green-gold here. It's just less obvious. For me they are the "wild" dragons dealing with black-red, but from the inside out. The necessary destruction from the inside. I consider the Lannisters, especially Cersei, having a similar role. She's a villain, but also necessary to bring the old wrong order down. Theon has a similar destructive role at WF, killing Septon Chayle, and then Ramsay burning WF (like the sept). It's a type of using "poison to fight poison" concept.

The Martell sigil by itself doesn't work, but when we combine it with the name of their castle Sunspear on the Greenblood and them finalizing the hiding tactic that House Toland used (and all the other Dornish houses) during the First Dornish War, we can see that all of Dorne is part of the Dr. Weird role in that example of history.

36 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I am now a little afraid Bran would careen off the hero path and into the fool path. But then, if Jon Snow is an Aragorn in the making, maybe Bran is the Gandalf.

I don't think so. The Starks is the sole family in the entire series that combine the four colors of green-gold with grey-white, have a Ghost. George kept both Jon and Bran well away from participating in fighting for or against the Iron Throne (the asoiaf's rubies, and in hiding). Bran has also shown he's not into revenge with Theon at Winterfell. The first time Theon heard the tree, he heard weeping. The second time a leaf of the tree touched Theon's brow. Those are not the actions of a boy seeking revenge. I do see him attempting to skinchange "fools" in order to save people or a situation.

Oberyn was a fool (brainless), because he kept fighting a fight that was already over, both in relation to Elia being death for nearly two decades, but even in his duel with the Mountain. He had given the Mountain the deathstroke already, but he wanted to prolong it to savour it, out of revenge, which was his undoing.

Neither Bran or Jon do this, despite their failings. For example Jon loved Ygritte. He grieved her. He burned her remains. She has become an integral part of his prior life. But he's not clinging to her. He let her go and is moving on, because there are more important issues to tackle. Bran's twice merciful response to Theon at WF shows something similar: grief, pain, but also empathy and mercy and accepting that Theon deeply regrets his choices and actions.

56 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

IIRC, ERE records of the Chalke Gate of Constantinople, which was decorated with unrusted bronze plates, states that it glittered like gold under the sun, second only to the Chrysos Gate, which is literally "the Golden Gate". So green-bronze might be a clue to "rusting false/mimic gold", as oxided copper is green (blue-greenish).

Yes, bronze shines like the sun and thus is the equivalent of gold. And oxidized copper is green instead of orange-reddish.

 

52 minutes ago, Seams said:

I have long suspected that the Shadow Tower at the Wall is a residence dedicated to members of the Night's Watch who have died-but-can't-die. Qhorin's directive to Jon Snow seems like a huge self-sacrifice until the moment Jon Snow cuts his throat with the tip of his sword and Qhorin seems (to me) greatly relieved: I sense that he wanted to die. If he is part of this Dr. Weird set of characters, this longing for death makes sense. And he achieves it after emerging through a portal (time travel?) with Jon Snow to, perhaps, take over the job that Qhorin had been doing while waiting for death.

Qhorin is "grey" right? And also a "horse" (with his braid). I think you are correct that the cave where they spend their last night before the confrontation with the "Lord of Bones" and his wildling band acts as a type of metaphorical time travel portal. After the cave and capture by Rattleshirt, we go to Jon in aSoS, and the first paragraph of his first chapter describes them coming down one of the mountains of the Frostfangs through "mists"/"fogs", and from that vantage point, Jon sees the Milkwater like glass and another river alongside it of campfires on the dark ground, in the darkness. Jon just "time traveled" to the days of the Long Night, Dawn and the sword of flame. One of the first things he asks of Mance is whether he knew of his coming via raven, and Mance informs him that they don't have trained ravens (there were no maesters in the Age of Heroes). The way the Free Folk live is as the FM lived back then: migrating, they only own what they can carry, sigils or words are "styles" or "a dog's head on a spear". There are some Magnars, some village settlements around a tree, some ringforts (Fist of the First Men) and a king whose castle is but a tent of white pelts with elk antlers on top of it. Heck, even Mance's cloak with its red silk of Asshai point to the past. His cloak does not indicate a Targ, but a far older branch with direct but fading ties to Asshai that this king of the past got from a grandmother. This king of the past also has ties to the FM because he wears raven wings, sings "songs" in the Old Tongue but also one about "The Dornishman's wife" and "his sharp steel that has a song of its own", abhors "lies". That king of the past was a skinchanger or greenseer. Hence he has no need of "trained ravens". 

There's also the tidbit about Qhorin's bones and helm and cloak being carried and given around: Rattleshirt has the bones, Ygritte wears Qhorin's hem and cloak. When Mance confronts Jon about lying about his mission (that it was just him and  5 men of the Shadow Tower on a ranging) at the Fist of the First Men, the following people are at the meeting: Mance, Ygritte, Rattleshirt, Harma Dogshead, Jarl, Sixskins and Qhorin (as bones, helm and cloak). That makes for 12 companions and 1. Hmmmmm.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I can't remember whether this was already raised in the recent discussion of the Wall, but Dr. Weird's last name was "Ward" before he was killed but not really killed. We were thinking that wards are special characters in ASOIAF and people might need to have wards nearby for major forms of protection. 

Yes, Rex Ward, aka King Ward. Good catch!

1 hour ago, Seams said:

If Ser Loras has joined the ranks of the dead-but-not-really characters, after his extreme injuries in the battle for Dragonstone, this may be a clue for us about a new dead-but-not-dead hero replacing a previous character in that role. Ser Loras wanted to lead the group that became the BWB but Ned Stark chose Ser Beric instead. We know that Ser Beric gave his last kiss to Lady Stoneheart, but she doesn't really fit the mold of a Dr. Weird hero character. (Or does she? Maybe we need to discuss this?) But there are strong parallels between Cersei and Catelyn, and Cersei is the one who sends Ser Loras on the mission to Dragonstone. Is Ser Loras the new Ser Beric? 

Yes, Loras becomes a "ghost", a "spirit" or "spectre".

LS is a "ghost" too, and a grey ghost at that, who has a Lem Lemoncloak, a One-Eyed Jack in green livery and a green dressed Singer (Tom Sevenstreams). She also has a "green knight" with Brienne (think Gawain and the Green Knight - the arthurian green knight gets conflated with Dr. Weird color combos almost from the start of Brienne's voyage) and a golden handed knight.

I'm not sure whether Loras will become the new Beric, though it's possible. I wouldn't wish for it though.

On the one hand Storm's End and the characters spiraling around it or being tied to it are stuck in the "Under Siege" moral dilemma (that I mentioned in the Stannis thread). Under Siege is a time travel story about what you are willing to do in order to prevent an apocalypse if you know/believe there will be one otherwise, and the preventing of it revolves around capturing a fortress that cannot be taken by force, only in making the occupiers surrender. In the grander scheme of things, it is about becoming the ruling power, which in aSoIaF is power over the Iron Throne - either by becoming the king, a king's queen, the regent or Hand over a king who's a minor. Once you combine it with Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark, this stealing of the power of the IT is the equivalent of Jasper killing to steal rubies, which is what Robert does when he kills Rhaegar with his hammer and Rhaegar's rubies fly off into the Ruby Ford. Note how George here connects "stealing rubies" to a fortress. A ford is a wordplay on a fort. 

The Riverlands and Riverrun are tied to another theme of a time travel story, called "Unsound Variations". It's mostly about a chess game that was lost in the past during a competition.It seemed at the time the player had a "winning position" but then made a dumb chess game move and lost the game. The other chess players used to harass "the loser" with "if you only had made this or that move we would have won". And during the story they get a chance to play the chess game, starting from the winning position, to try and win it. But with every try-out it becomes more and more clear their efforts are "unsound variations". The variations of strategy and moves are unsound, because what seemed to be a winning position, never really was one. That was the best position the "loser" could ever have reached, a check but never checkmate, and the best result that could have been gotten out of it was a "stale mate" or "draw" The "loser" has actually been more successful in life in comparison to the others, but that is only so, because he used a time machine to steal their ideas that would have led to a success in life (novel, invention or financial client). He offers the use of this time machine to the protagonist who realized that the winning position never truly was one. Not only does the protagonist forego the chance of a do-over over the chess game, he declines the time machine to rectify his failures and losses of his past life so far. He just lets it go and moves on in life from it all.

The moral of Unsound Variations is that one must learn to recognize what you can realistically achieve, that there aren't really do-overs or second chances at winning the same game this time around. Take your loss, move on and live as a wiser person. And this is what Riverrun and the Riverlands do by extension: it takes and gives you grief, then it tempts you with the illusion of a winning position and a second chance at it, only for you to learn that both were an illusion. Robb's campaign is a sound example of that. Even readers get into decades of debates of "unsound variations" on what Robb should or should not have done. The fact is that he could never have won his war against Tywin Lannister, only limit the losses and play for stalemate.

George does not just have Riverrun tied to illusionary do-overs and heartfelt failure, he also combined it with promises and breaking promises. The moment we see a character at having a seeming second chance to finally win something they deeply desire, we therefore know this will come crashing down on them. This do-over does not necessarily occur in the Riverlands, but if it stems from events in the Riverlands, then it will fail. Tywin Lannister's desire was to be Hand again. His war with Robb and the alliance with the Tyrells gave him the illusion he had won it again. But as soon as he is Hand, his children and grandchildren are the cause of taking it away again. Jaime refuses to leave the kingsguard but gifts his new house's VS sword to Brienne. Joffrey is unruly and looks down on his grandfather's feats. When he finally has a malleable king to be Hand over, Tyrion kills him, and Cersei burns his tower.

Jaime attempted to capture Riverrun, ended up in chains, made promises to Cat, and ends up taking Riverrun only to meet the ghost of the woman he made promises to that he didn't or couldn't keep. It doesn't matter that he promised these things at swordpoint, because he did try to keep his promises initially. It doesn't matter his threats were just a tactic, or that he captured Riverrun bloodlessly. He must face the broken promises and falling for the illusion of a do-over which was a fake winning position to begin with.

Some characters overlap the Under Siege theme as well as that of Unsound Variations. Loras is one of those (as is Cat and Renly and Tyrion)

So, let's look at Loras and the Tyrells. As a Tyrell he has the green-gold. He's become a ghost: allegedly on the brink of death with a white cloak. He took the cloak because the love of his life died and to protect his sister (a maiden) whose life is in danger because of a trial. She's a queen because he aided in making his father's wish come true - have a daughter for a queen of westeros wed to a king of the IT, all to boys and men that legally are or were false kings. Loras basically aided in putting the maiden in that dangerous position.

But he and Renly helped try to steal the rubies: his sister as queen to several kings.

• Robert who killed the man with the rubies: Renly aims to persuade Robert to put aside Cersei and wed Margaery
• Renly who was at the Ruby Ford and looked the part of the younger Robert Baratheon. In that sense, Renly becomes the do-over for a "better Robert", a second chance for the realm introduced in the Riverlands. Margaery was wed to Renly, but Renly never got to sit on the IT and is gay.
• Joffrey on the IT, but the Tyrells killed him before he could bed Margaery. He's not even really a Baratheon. And the Tyrells are aware of Stannis' accusations.
• Tommen on the IT. He's Margaery's do-over. She "beds" with him (though without consummation) and becomes his queen. But then she's accused of adultery and is to stand trial.

Given the above, we can thus infer that Margaery seemingly has "won" (like Tywin believed it), only for it to quickly turn very very wrong. She will not be able to remain Tommen's queen and she won't get another do-over with any other man on the IT. How is Loras tied into this? He helped getting her there and took the white cloak to protect her. He's been prevented from doing that, which makes sense, because he helped put her in the sacrifical position. And Loras' desired do-overs are not "protecting his sister". Note how Margaery's trial already involves the RL, since the HS came from the Riverlands with a cart full of bones. His involvement means that the Tyrells will go through loss and grief over Margaery via this man.

This is highlighted, because Mace also got to do a do-over with besieging Storm's End for a second time, against the loyal men of Stannis there. He abandoned that to come to Margaery's aid, and got his own true wish in becoming Hand in the process. Mace believes he is in a winning position. He'll most likely meet his end in or at Storm's End. The do-over was an illusion and being Hand under Kevan's regency the closest he could get to a "win".

None of that really is Loras' primary wish though. When we think of Loras' backstory, there are two potential wishes as potential do-overs for him that are tied to the Riverlands. Like Renly was a younger do-over of Robert, Gendry can be considered to be a younger Renly do-over. Brienne identifies him as Renly initially. So, a potential scenario is Loras trying to make Gendry king of the IT, exposing Cersei's children. However, since Loras spoke with Brienne about the assassination of Renly, and she left for the RL after that to discover Gendry and exposing him as one of Robert's bastards in the mind of LS, I doubt Loras' involvement in any such attempt will go no further than making his peace with Brienne.

The second wish for a do-over is tied to the Mountain and it is Loras' oldest wish. Before becoming Margaery's protector, before helping Renly form an alliance with the Tyrells to make him king, Loras wanted "revanche" against the Mountain (a chess term where the loser wants another go at it). Loras is introduced to us during the Hand's tourney. He won the joust against the Mountain with trickery, but then the Mountain aimed to combat him. The Hound saved Loras and Loras refrained from jousting against Sandor and gave Sandor the victory. This was the reason why Loras volunteered to be part of the men who were to arrest the Mountain: so he could duel the Mountain with a sword and prove his worth as a knight, for fame and glory.

So, no, I do not believe Loras will be a new Beric to lead the BwB after LS. I think that he will reappear for Cersei's trial of combat, to be the HS's champion and duel the Mountain. A trial by combat against the Mountain is imo Loras' most desired do-over opportunity. And Loras will die in that combat.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

On 9/7/2023 at 9:38 AM, SaffronLady said:

I should try to get Dreamsongs if I want to be of further useful input, since I haven't read the actual story yet.

On 9/6/2023 at 2:41 PM, csuszka1948 said:

I highly recommend Dreamsongs. Even beyond looking for ASOIAF parallels, there's so much great material to enjoy. Admittedly, his Dr. Weird fanfic Only Kids Are Afraid of the Dark is not something I count in that trove of gems, but it's still cool to see how GRRM has grown as a writer, and possible parallels make it worth a (cringe-filled) read.

[Kal-L]

JonCon failed do-over is one of my most awaited moment of the story. If we follow the pattern, Jon's obsession with correcting his past failure to his prince, mostly characterised by his decisive loss at the Battle of Bell to the rebels and especially Robert - whom he was taunting with an army behind him but in the end, played him with help of the smallfolks and had him running away the tail between the legs -, will lead him to commit atrocities (akin to Tywin Lannister's) against Robert's impostor heir in the name of Rhaegar's heir who will happen to be an impostor as well.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Kal-L

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Kal-L said:

If we follow the pattern, Jon's obsession with correcting his past failure to his prince, 

The old griffin seems to be headed down the path of the fool instead of the hero, true.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I would be recitent about "single" colors being neutral. Pure (scarlet) red is never ever neutral for George for example. It's a different code than the green-gold + grey-white though. And green is by itself also code for "nature": wild, nature, counter-balancing, ... And yes nature has a violent side to it and can be aggressive. In George's mind, green isn't peacenick treehugging. 

I think I should expand on my wording a bit. There are many dimensions of meaning to color (for instance, red and yellow is usually a symbol of revolution throughout East Asia and Southeast Asia, but it's usually a symbol for McDonalds in the USA), but single colors in ASOIAF don't, as far as I know, carry on the particular dimension of "heroes and villains". Like you said, they carry other meanings.

I'll admit one major motivation of mine in starting this thread is I'm tired of seeing Bran being called king of the White Walkers. He's willing to forgive Theon, saying he will sucumb to "Tully Madness" and suddenly become some Saturday afternoon cartoon villain isn't even a joke, just plain annoying. Color codes just make it more obvious his plot isn't headed that way.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Kal-L said:

JonCon failed do-over is one of my most awaited moment of the story. If we follow the pattern, Jon's obsession with correcting his past failure to his prince, mostly characterised by his decisive loss at the Battle of Bell to the rebels and especially Robert - whom he was taunting with an army behind him but in the end, played him with help of the smallfolks and had him running away the tail between the legs -, will lead him to commit atrocities (akin to Tywin Lannister's) against Robert's impostor heir in the name of Rhaegar's heir who will happen to be an impostor as well.

I think Jon Con will burn down King's Landing, as explained here:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/161265-will-jon-connington-burn-down-kings-landing/